Do the Celtics have any players who are very good?

[luckiestman]

Back on track for the thread, I think Sullinger is very good. To me he is a second year player and he is putting up 16 and 8 and while his body is soft he seems mentally tough.

If he can keep getting in better shape he could be a 20 and 10 guy and that is very good

 

[TheDeuce222]

 
Rondo +/- for the season:  -2.5
Pressey +/- :  0.0
 
And that's with Pressey generally on the court with bench players.

Pressey's also more likely to be playing against bench players.  Small sample size, etc, but Phil Pressey is shooting .303, including .17% from three point range, though he takes 1.7 shots from deep a game in his 12 minutes a game and obviously thinks that is a worthwhile part of his game.  Pressey is literally offensive as a shooter (he shot 30.8% last year).  Pressey is a terrible rebounder and does little well other than run and pass.  To the extent he tries to take it to the rim, he gets blocked nearly every time.  Regardless of what anyone thinks about Rondo, please don't insult our intelligence or your credibility by claiming that Phil Pressey is in any way shape or form the answer to any question other than: "how the hell is that guy on an NBA roster right now?"  Hopefully Smart is now healthy and able to take those minutes so that Pressey can get stapled back to the bench.  

 

[ALiveH]

Does anyone know why Sullinger only plays 30 MPG?  He is putting up 20/10 per 36 and all his efficiency stats (TS%, TOV%, FPG) are pretty good & way better than last year.  He's probably the guy I'm most bullish on, unless Smart or Young show something positive this year.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Stop it.
Rondo is playing poorly, and he's still one of the best players on the team,.
Phil Pressey is not an NBA caliber player, and not withing a mile of Rondo in this or any other year.
 
Rondo this year is:
1. Shooting better than Pressey (even when you count his bizarrely terrible FT%)
2. Rebounding at a rate more than twice that of Pressey.
3. Assisting baskets at a rate almost twice that of Pressey.
4. The team has a better plus/minus with Rondo on the floor.
 
Rondo is having the worst season of his career in terms of shooting and turnovers (not that shocking considering his supporting cast), he's rebounding well however and his defense has actually been pretty good. He can still be a major part of a good team, he just isn't going to be a go to scorer.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Does anyone know why Sullinger only plays 30 MPG?  He is putting up 20/10 per 36 and all his efficiency stats (TS%, TOV%, FPG) are pretty good & way better than last year.  He's probably the guy I'm most bullish on, unless Smart or Young show something positive this year.

Because Olynyk brings similar offense and unfortunately similar defense. You can only play maybe the worst defensive frontcourt in basketball so many minutes a game together, no matter how good they are on offense.
 
Sullinger has been truly abysmal defensively.

 

[luckiestman]

Stop it.
Rondo is playing poorly, and he's still one of the best players on the team,.
Phil Pressey is not an NBA caliber player, and not withing a mile of Rondo in this or any other year.
 
Rondo this year is:
1. Shooting better than Pressey (even when you count his bizarrely terrible FT%)
2. Rebounding at a rate more than twice that of Pressey.
3. Assisting baskets at a rate almost twice that of Pressey.
4. The team has a better plus/minus with Rondo on the floor.
 
Rondo is having the worst season of his career in terms of shooting and turnovers (not that shocking considering his supporting cast), he's rebounding well however and his defense has actually been pretty good. He can still be a major part of a good team, he just isn't going to be a go to scorer.

Do you know where I can get quarter by quarter stats? I've watched all the games but it gets fuzzy. To my memory, Rondo has had some monster first halfs but has been just awful from the middle of the third quarter on.

Saying the team looks better with pressey has nothing to do with pressey being good.

 

[Koufax]

Saying the team looks better with pressey has nothing to do with pressey being good.

 
Very true.  My original summary was that he is useless and I stick by that.  He makes a few good plays but he is a terrible shooter and he doesn't have the size or strength to be a plus defender. 

 

[TomRicardo]

You guys really Rondo tunes out as soon as it is clear the Celtics have no way to stop big men and people driving to the lane and the Celtics are destined to lose.  Lack of of big man that can play defensively has killed this team.  You put Kendrick Perkins on this team even and they look a whole lot better, probably even have a winning record.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Pressey's also more likely to be playing against bench players.  Small sample size, etc, but Phil Pressey is shooting .303, including .17% from three point range, though he takes 1.7 shots from deep a game in his 12 minutes a game and obviously thinks that is a worthwhile part of his game.  Pressey is literally offensive as a shooter (he shot 30.8% last year).  Pressey is a terrible rebounder and does little well other than run and pass.  To the extent he tries to take it to the rim, he gets blocked nearly every time.  Regardless of what anyone thinks about Rondo, please don't insult our intelligence or your credibility by claiming that Phil Pressey is in any way shape or form the answer to any question other than: "how the hell is that guy on an NBA roster right now?"  Hopefully Smart is now healthy and able to take those minutes so that Pressey can get stapled back to the bench.  

 
You can maybe add that on defense, Pressey is able to glide over picks effortlessly.  I'd call him a limited player but not a useless one. 

 

[luckiestman]

You guys really Rondo tunes out as soon as it is clear the Celtics have no way to stop big men and people driving to the lane and the Celtics are destined to lose.  Lack of of big man that can play defensively has killed this team.  You put Kendrick Perkins on this team even and they look a whole lot better, probably even have a winning record.

So Rondo is hurting his next contract value because he has a sad? I don't buy it.

 

[Brickowski]

I would simply invite those who argue "it isn't Rondo, it's everybody else" to watch the games.
 
If Rondo took care of the ball, made at least a token attempt to stay between his man and the basket and made 70% of his free throws, I wouldn't be so hard on him.  Is that too much to ask from a $12M player?

 

[Cellar-Door]

I would simply invite those who argue "it isn't Rondo, it's everybody else" to watch the games.
 
If Rondo took care of the ball, made at least a token attempt to stay between his man and the basket and made 70% of his free throws, I wouldn't be so hard on him.  Is that too much to ask from a $12M player?

Well he's only turning it over slightly above the rate he did in some of his best seasons, he's been one of the better defenders on the team.
FTs are a real gripe, as is shooting from the floor.
He's pretty clearly still the best player on the roster.

 

[wutang112878]

 
Are you watching the games? The team looks really bad with Rondo running the show. I wish it wasn't true. Don't take Bricks's comment as "wow, Pressey is awesome" take it as  "I'm totally depressed that the team actually looks better with a marginal NBA player running the point instead of our "best player""
 
Rondo in the 4th = jogging the ball up the court, teams clogging passing lanes cause he cant shoot, other 4 Cs running all over the place while Rondo looks around like he is Dan Marino and then trying to do some crazy fastball pass.  
 
You want to tell me Rondo's playing great and my eyes are lying, fine, I hope it is true.
 
His rebound numbers are pretty hollow too. If there is a stat for "if player X did not get the rebound who was closest", I'd love to see it, because it often seems Rondo is fighting his own teammates for boards and not the opposition. As opposed to Sullinger who is really earnings some boards. All rebounds are not created equal
 
All this being said: 
 
 
BEAT LA BEAT LA BEAT LA

I'm not saying Rondo is playing well just that he is hands down better than Pressey. It doesn't make it right but all the critiques we have for Rondo right now were exactly the same critiques that Pierce got during the Doc rebuilding years. Wasn't interested, didn't play defense, couldn't make his teammates better. Then suddenly once he's on a great team he looks totally different

 

[Brickowski]

 
He's pretty clearly still the best player on the roster.

He's the most talented player on the roster.  But he's wasting it.

 

[radsoxfan]

I was going to try to stay out of the Rondo argument, because it seems as if people have their minds made up.
 
I will make only 2 quick points.
 
1. Rondo not playing well this year is not proof he wasn't a VERY good player 4 years ago. KG/Pierce/Allen helped of course, but I strongly disagree that it was those guys propping him up.  If anything, his play helped them extend their window of usefulness. I hope Rondo didn't peak at age 23-24, but if he did, that doesn't change what he did at that time. 
 
2. FT shooting is vastly overrated by a lot of people here.  Certainly shooting 30% is annoying to watch, and it decreases Rondo's value. But his career level of 61%, in the grand scheme of things, is just not that big of a deal.  At the end of games it can be problematic on occasion, but making 6 out of 10 shots vs 7 or 8 out of 10 shots (for someone who shoots less than 3FTs per game over his career) is simply not that important. We're talking about a point every 2 or 3 games. 

 

[radsoxfan]

Because Olynyk brings similar offense and unfortunately similar defense. You can only play maybe the worst defensive frontcourt in basketball so many minutes a game together, no matter how good they are on offense.
 
Sullinger has been truly abysmal defensively.

 
Not to mention he is still overweight, though maybe slightly less so than last year.
 
Sullinger may be very effective when he's out there, but that doesn't mean he can play more minutes, even if the box score says that he should.  

 

[Kliq]

Rondo finished with a +/- of +40 tonight, just saying. Meanwhile, Phil Pressey (a fellow alum of the Waltham Youth Basketball Association) played 16 disatourous minutes and finished with a +/- of -23.

 

[luckiestman]

Rondo finished with a +/- of +40 tonight, just saying. Meanwhile, Phil Pressey (a fellow alum of the Waltham Youth Basketball Association) played 16 disatourous minutes and finished with a +/- of -23.

Here's to hoping he keeps it up

 

[Blacken]

I'm not saying Rondo is playing well just that he is hands down better than Pressey. It doesn't make it right but all the critiques we have for Rondo right now were exactly the same critiques that Pierce got during the Doc rebuilding years. Wasn't interested, didn't play defense, couldn't make his teammates better. Then suddenly once he's on a great team he looks totally different

All of this. The #hotsportstakes are STRONK up in here.

 

[Sprowl]

Rondo certainly made Zeller better against the Lakers. This thread is a contrary indicator: trash Rondo, and he sparkles.

 

[Koufax]

Then we should trash away.  I don't want Rondo to be bad but until last night, well, he just was.

 

[Brickowski]

Rondo certainly made Zeller better against the Lakers. This thread is a contrary indicator: trash Rondo, and he sparkles.

He played very well on offense, but his defense on Lin wasn't stellar. I'm not sure why the Lakers went away from running high pick and rolls with Lin, but they did.
 
Let's see how Rondo looks against John Wall and the Wizards instead of the pathetic Lakers.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I was going to try to stay out of the Rondo argument, because it seems as if people have their minds made up.
 
I will make only 2 quick points.
 
1. Rondo not playing well this year is not proof he wasn't a VERY good player 4 years ago. KG/Pierce/Allen helped of course, but I strongly disagree that it was those guys propping him up.  If anything, his play helped them extend their window of usefulness. I hope Rondo didn't peak at age 23-24, but if he did, that doesn't change what he did at that time. 
 
2. FT shooting is vastly overrated by a lot of people here.  Certainly shooting 30% is annoying to watch, and it decreases Rondo's value. But his career level of 61%, in the grand scheme of things, is just not that big of a deal.  At the end of games it can be problematic on occasion, but making 6 out of 10 shots vs 7 or 8 out of 10 shots (for someone who shoots less than 3FTs per game over his career) is simply not that important. We're talking about a point every 2 or 3 games. 

The second point is true, sort of. On the one hand, Rondo's poor FT shooting isn't hugely harmful because he only takes a couple a game, but that in and of itself is harmful. I've never been a huge Rondo guy, even if I think the criticism on Brick's part has veered into hyperbole, but if your most ball dominant player doesn't shoot well from the field AND doesn't make up for that from the free throw line, I think it makes it really, really difficult to run a passable NBA offense. So on its own the FT issue isn't necessarily a huge deal, but coupled with Rondo's poor shooting, it becomes a pretty serious issue.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

Just read the initial post of this thread and there is a zero chance Bradley is out of the league in two years.

Aside from that? No. Rondo is a slightly above lg avg PG who made a name passing to 3 HOFers who all happened to be great shooters. His d is embarassing and he got subbed out for freaking Evan Turner the other night in crunch time.

I am petrified of this rebuild. Unless Danny can pull the wool over another GMs eyes for Rondo/Green/Sullinger etc then we best hope to get really lucky in the draft...because if im a GM looking at the cs roster im not trading much. Bass would be the most attractive to me right now because the cost would be very low.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Just read the initial post of this thread and there is a zero chance Bradley is out of the league in two years.

Aside from that? No. Rondo is a slightly above lg avg PG who made a name passing to 3 HOFers who all happened to be great shooters. His d is embarassing and he got subbed out for freaking Evan Turner the other night in crunch time.

I am petrified of this rebuild. Unless Danny can pull the wool over another GMs eyes for Rondo/Green/Sullinger etc then we best hope to get really lucky in the draft...because if im a GM looking at the cs roster im not trading much. Bass would be the most attractive to me right now because the cost would be very low.

Everything I have bolded is incredibly stupid.
He leads the league in AST/G and AST% playing with a terrible supporting cast, so obviously the 3HOF shooters didn't really inflate that. He's the best rebounding PG in the league, he doesn't shoot well, never has. His Defense is no longer elite, but it is far from embarrassing, he's one of the better defenders on the team, and league average or better for starting PG defense.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Just read the initial post of this thread and there is a zero chance Bradley is out of the league in two years.

Aside from that? No. Rondo is a slightly above lg avg PG who made a name passing to 3 HOFers who all happened to be great shooters. His d is embarassing and he got subbed out for freaking Evan Turner the other night in crunch time.

I am petrified of this rebuild. Unless Danny can pull the wool over another GMs eyes for Rondo/Green/Sullinger etc then we best hope to get really lucky in the draft...because if im a GM looking at the cs roster im not trading much. Bass would be the most attractive to me right now because the cost would be very low.

Could be worse. We could have Rondo/Love and no draft picks.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

Everything I have bolded is incredibly stupid.
He leads the league in AST/G and AST% playing with a terrible supporting cast, so obviously the 3HOF shooters didn't really inflate that. He's the best rebounding PG in the league, he doesn't shoot well, never has. His Defense is no longer elite, but it is far from embarrassing, he's one of the better defenders on the team, and league average or better for starting PG defense.

Cute stats and all but watching the games he is constantly forcing passes or passing up easy layups for shots. This happens time and again. I wish SAC traded us McLemore and parts for Rondo.

I guess we can pray Kobe demands a trade for him.

 

[radsoxfan]

The second point is true, sort of. On the one hand, Rondo's poor FT shooting isn't hugely harmful because he only takes a couple a game, but that in and of itself is harmful. I've never been a huge Rondo guy, even if I think the criticism on Brick's part has veered into hyperbole, but if your most ball dominant player doesn't shoot well from the field AND doesn't make up for that from the free throw line, I think it makes it really, really difficult to run a passable NBA offense. So on its own the FT issue isn't necessarily a huge deal, but coupled with Rondo's poor shooting, it becomes a pretty serious issue.

 
If Rondo was a better shooter, he would be better (though his mid range shooting deficiencies are vastly overstated).  If he was better at drawing fouls and making free throws, he would be better. He's never going to be a guy like Russell Westbrook who gets to the line 6 times per game. No argument there. I'm not sure there is some hidden detrimental effect on an NBA offense of combining those things as you (perhaps?) are suggesting. Put another way, I don't believe the additional "negative value" of his limited/poor FT shooting above and beyond any other deficiencies is critically significant.  
 
Generally, the obsession with the FT shooting is misguided. I don't expect Rondo to shoot 30% all year, and if he's even close to his career numbers, it's really just not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.  It's irritating to be sure (especially in late game situations when you might choose to have your PG taking out the ball instead of getting the ball) but it's just totally overblown as an important factor when coming up with a player's overall value, especially for a guard like Rondo who is never going to get to the line much anyway.
 
At least when people complain about someone like Dwight Howard, he shoots 50% on 9 FTs per game, so he's costing you a couple points per game versus the value he could provide if he was an average FT shooter.  

 

[southshoresoxfan]

Its not the FT percentage in a bubble. Its the overall lousy shooting and lousy D which makes him very ill suited to be a top 3 player on a good team. He passes. Yayyyy

 

[radsoxfan]

Its not the FT percentage in a bubble. Its the overall lousy shooting and lousy D which makes him very ill suited to be a top 3 player on a good team. He passes. Yayyyy

That's fine. If the FT shooting is just the "tip of the iceberg" of Rondo's suckitude.... Then people should just say that.

Instead, we get people on this board and elsewhere saying "you can't pay someone X amount of money who can't shoot FTs!!!" It's just dumb.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

That's fine. If the FT shooting is just the "tip of the iceberg" of Rondo's suckitude.... Then people just just say that.

Instead, we get people on this board and elsewhere saying "you can't pay someone X amount of money who can't shoot FTs!!!" It's just dumb.

I agree. The FTs arent even in my top 5 reasons to not pay Rondo.

 

[nighthob]

I was going to try to stay out of the Rondo argument, because it seems as if people have their minds made up.
 
I will make only 2 quick points.
 
1. Rondo not playing well this year is not proof he wasn't a VERY good player 4 years ago. KG/Pierce/Allen helped of course, but I strongly disagree that it was those guys propping him up.  If anything, his play helped them extend their window of usefulness. I hope Rondo didn't peak at age 23-24, but if he did, that doesn't change what he did at that time. 
 
2. FT shooting is vastly overrated by a lot of people here.  Certainly shooting 30% is annoying to watch, and it decreases Rondo's value. But his career level of 61%, in the grand scheme of things, is just not that big of a deal.  At the end of games it can be problematic on occasion, but making 6 out of 10 shots vs 7 or 8 out of 10 shots (for someone who shoots less than 3FTs per game over his career) is simply not that important. We're talking about a point every 2 or 3 games.

I just wanted to point out two caveats to this (because I mostly agree with the second point in a universal sense). One, it's problematic when the player that dominates the ball can't score, what little he does score he does so inefficiently, and fails to compensate by getting to the line. Part of the reason that Rondo doesn't shoot many free throws is that he's spent an entire career actively avoiding contact at the rim because he's a terrible free throw shooter (I mean there's no way to credibly deny this when at least three times a game we see those pretzel twist layup attempts designed to avoid contact).

The second point, which is related, is that his failure to draw fouls hurts the offense by keeping other guys off the line. Back in the days of Shaq wars, I always pointed out that despite his free throw shooting drawing all those fouls had the secondary effect of putting his teammates on the line sooner for the non-shooting fouls. Rondo's quickness and handles make it possible for him to get into the paint nearly at will, so he's certainly capable of drawing the same fouls as Westbrook. He simply won't do it, and that makes him less valuable.

I think he's fine for a team like the Cavs who have guys that can score, but I think his value as a centerpiece here is limited as I don't think Boston has the time to find 2-3 scorers in Rondo's timeline.

 

[Cellar-Door]

There are definitely problems with Rondo's game, and I would have to think very hard about giving him the max (only reason to consider it is that the cap rise would quickly make his 30% max more like 20%, maybe less). You can have a PG who doesn't shoot well overall or get to the line if he does certain things well:
1. Pass- Rondo is one of the best passers in the league, so far so good.
2. Play Defense- Rondo has gotten gradually more and more inconsistent on D, if he plays as we know he can, and in a system he's fine here too.
3. Provide value in other places- Rebounding in particular is a place Rondo does this.
4. Make certain shots- In this case those elbow and FT line shots you get when a defender goes under the pick. Rondo was one of the best in the league there, the last few years. This year he is not, and it is the biggest problem with his offense.
 
So if you have a guy like Rondo how does it effect other players on the floor.
 
Positives:
He creates lots of easy opportunities, especially for the Big guys like Sully, Olynyk and Zeller. He is a part of the reason they have such high efficiency on their scoring.
 
Negatives:
He doesn't stretch the floor, which means you need to get that from someone else.
He isn't going to ISO score. Not a major problem for most teams where the 2/3 and even 4 can, bad for this team where nobody can.
He doesn't draw fouls. Unless you have drivers at the 2 and 3, a PG who doesn't draw fouls means you get to the bonus slower and get less easy points, particularly late in games.
 
Overall, Rondo can be to me the second best player on a championship caliber team (if he hits his elbow shots and stays committed on D), but it means either the #1 or #3 is going to have to be someone who can ISO score from the perimeter, and the team needs at least 1 starter who can space the floor.

 

[Brickowski]

If your primary ballhandler can't make free throws it has a huge impact in the last 2-3 minutes of a close game.  For starters it allows the other team to defend that player much more aggressively, because if they commit a foul, he can't make the freebies.

 

[ifmanis5]

If your primary ballhandler can't make free throws it has a huge impact in the last 2-3 minutes of a close game.  For starters it allows the other team to defend that player much more aggressively, because if they commit a foul, he can't make the freebies.

This was a total non-factor during the championship runs. It has totally affected his tenacity when driving to the basket to the point where he rarely does it now.

 

[Statman]

However, when it's time for National TV Rondo, that's a different level of player. Sadly, we haven't seen that guy in a while.

 
Rondo is like the anti-ARod.  Great in big games where the spotlight is shining on him, but is putrid during those early season games against the likes of Detroit and Atlanta.
 
Games like last night are the reason I get so frustrated with him.  Rondo clearly has the talent to change the game, but for whatever reason, he only utilizes his abilities when he feels like it. 
 

 
His rebound numbers are pretty hollow too. If there is a stat for "if player X did not get the rebound who was closest", I'd love to see it, because it often seems Rondo is fighting his own teammates for boards and not the opposition. As opposed to Sullinger who is really earnings some boards. All rebounds are not created equal

 
There was a play last night during the 3rd period when the game was still pretty close and a Laker missed a jumper.  Zeller AND Sully were under the basket and were about to grab the rebound, but Rondo jumps into both of them and knocks the ball so it's heading out of bounds.  Rondo jumps out of bounds, grabs the ball in the air and manages to get it back to a Celtic to prevent the turnover.  However, it's plays that like that which confirm to me that Rondo is a stat padder. 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This was a total non-factor during the championship runs. It has totally affected his tenacity when driving to the basket to the point where he rarely does it now.

Of course it was a total non-factor when the ball was in Pierce's hands one dribble past halfcourt. He's playing in a completely different offense with the ball in his hands being asked to create down the stretch of games.

 

[Sprowl]

The Port Cellar, where every thread results in a Rondo critique...

I'm game. I love watching Rondo play, always have, but expect him to be traded in January.

He does make his teammates better. Zeller's lay-ins, dump-offs and short jumpers are mostly Rondo's doing. Sullinger is getting better at making 3-pointers - I haven't seen all the games, but I think he's getting better because he's getting better at making the shot, and he's getting more wide open shots on the perimeter, for which I give equal credit to Stevens and Rondo. Is Bradley getting a few more lay-ups this year? Maybe, and if so, that should be credited to Rondo too. Green's slashing game owes something to Rondo as well.

His athleticism post-ACL seems to have returned, and while his man-to-man defense is as lackadaisical as ever, his ballhawking is better than any time since 2011.

His assist-to-turnover ratio is 11.3 to 3.4 - that's better than 3-to-1, which is the Hardaway bonus bar. The Celtics are playing better with him than they will without him. When he's traded and Smart has to take over the point, we'll suffer some serious growing pains.

Finally, his middle name is Pierre, and what Canadian couldn't love that?

 

[southshoresoxfan]

Disagree. It was a problem in the 4th quarter of Game 7 in 2010 when the offense grinded to a halt in the half court. Kobe was basically Devin McCourty that entire quarter since he knew Rondo wasn't much of a threat. Rondo can work but you need some special talent around him to make it work. And I'm doubtful we'll be able to acquire that talent before he starts his decline.

Nor should a team pay max money for a guy that needs 2-3 other stars to function. The point of paying 1/3 of your cap on a player is because he IS the guy that makes you better. We have a healthy sample of a similar roster to this with and without Rondo and theres not much of a difference.

Also do this exercise. Watch a game with no prejudices beforehand. Just reslly watch the flow and how defenses react when certain guys have the ball. Rondo makes no extra impact on any game ive ever seen, barring some playoff performances in which he had pierce Allen and KG on his side.

 

[radsoxfan]

Also do this exercise. Watch a game with no prejudices beforehand. Just reslly watch the flow and how defenses react when certain guys have the ball. Rondo makes no extra impact on any game ive ever seen, barring some playoff performances in which he had pierce Allen and KG on his side.

 
It really is amazing how every thread turns into a Rondo critique….
 
Having said that, you really don't have a clue what you're talking about. 
 
I freely admit Rondo's best, most sustained excellence was from the age of 22-25. He's now 28, and that's definitely worrisome.  Injuries and worse teammates may be partially to blame for the drop off since then, though I'm not sure that explains it all.  Maybe he just peaked early…. time will tell.
 
But if you honestly believe he had a few good "Big 3" aided playoff games, and otherwise makes no extra impact on the game, you either have a terrible memory or are simply clueless.  He was the best player on the court for many many Celtics games over the past 6 years, regular and post season. 
 
All-Star voting is certainly not perfect, but I don't think the rest of the NBA was "tricked" into voting a guy who makes no impact on the game as a 4 time All Star.  I also don't think playing 19 playoff games in 2012 with an average of 17 points, 12 assists, and 7 rebounds (and being the best guy on the court against the Lebron-led Cavs in the Eastern Conference Finals including a 44 point, 10 assist, 8 rebound game in Game 2) can be done by someone who rarely has any impact on the game.  Does his regular season game against the Knicks with 18 points, 20 assists, and 17 rebounds count?  Seems unlikely he had no "extra impact" for that one.  Should I keep going?  
 
I certainly hope we haven't seen the best of Rondo, and I agree he can be as frustrating as anyone at times, but he had a hell of a lot more than a couple good Big 3 aided playoff performances. He isn't a guy who can lead a team without a few other really good players around him, I agree.  And he certainly has faults.  But the hyperbolic Rondo hate by a few people on here is absurd. 

 

[Koufax]

I agree with you that Rondo was a spectacular point guard during the glory years.  He was almost that good last night.  Maybe last night was the start of a new Rondo for 2014, but I fear it was merely Rondo reacting to the bright lights and pulling out his A game, a game we hadn't seen all year.  If he plays like that once a month and is average the other times, he's not a max player and he's not even very good.  Time will tell what -- and where --Rondo wants to be.

 

[radsoxfan]

I agree with you that Rondo was a spectacular point guard during the glory years.  He was almost that good last night.  Maybe last night was the start of a new Rondo for 2014, but I fear it was merely Rondo reacting to the bright lights and pulling out his A game, a game we hadn't seen all year.  If he plays like that once a month and is average the other times, he's not a max player and he's not even very good.  Time will tell what -- and where --Rondo wants to be.

 
Certainly there are legitimate critiques of the current and future Rondo, and fair concerns about offering him a max contract for his age 29-33 seasons. His best play was a few years ago, and since then he has dislocated his elbow, torn his ACL, and broken his hand (to just mention the major injuries).  Two of the skills that tend to age best are height (of course) and shooting ability, which also doesn't bode particularly well for Rondo.  Furthermore, he plays PG in a way that is most useful to a team with other good players, and he is not a Lebron/Durant-type superstar (and has never been) who can carry a team on his own.
 
I'm interested to see how he plays as continues to get healthy, and also interested to have him stay on the Celtics if there is a way for them to upgrade the roster significantly over the next couple of seasons. I don't think the version of him we have seen the past 2 years is a max player, though I still think he can be quite valuable in the right situation, and potentially for the Celtics. These are all important questions for Danny to sort through going forward.
 
But discussing Rondo's past contributions and his current/future value are different things (not intending to direct this at you specifically). Saying Rondo has made no extra impact on the game except for a few sporadic playoff games with the Big 3 is so absurdly incorrect it deserves to be called out, regardless of what you think about the current version of Rondo. 

 

[Koufax]

Back to Bradley for a moment -- I went looking for some overall statistics and chose -- without knowing what the results would be -- PER and VORP as shown on basketball reference.  I looked at shooting guards who have played more than 300 minutes so far this year.  There are 38 such shooting guards with a PER better than Bradley's.  Of those 38, all but one have a VORP better than Bradley's -0.6.  The shooting guards who outpace Bradley include some big names like Harden, Wade, Bryant and Ginobili; some old friends like Jamal Crawford, Gerald Green, Courtney Lee, Tony Allen and Jason Terry; and some pretty marginal players like Jared Dudley, and Iman Shumpert; and teammate Evan Turner.  Of course no one statistic captures everything, but these try to and I don't know what does a better job of it.  According to these, there are many bench players performing better than him.
 
The team leaders in PER are Sullinger, Zeller (but with fewer than 300 minutes), Green and Rondo, in that order.  There are 28 point guards who have logged 300 minutes and have PERs higher than Rondo's.  Not very good.
 
The leading candidate for very good is Sullinger.  There are 7 power forwards who have played 300 minutes and have a PER higher than Sullinger.  That makes him #8 in a category that includes Dirk, Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin.  I'd say that is very good.  So yes, the Celtics do have a very good player.   Finally, Jeff Green is in a similar situation, with the 8th highest PER among small forwards.  I'm a little less impressed with Jeff, but the numbers are what they are.  I will concede that Jeff is very good right now.  So that makes two.  Personally, I draw the line there right now, but Rondo can leap over it any time he wants to.

 

[Blacken]

No publicly available statistic even pretends to effectively encompass everything, PER included. (I know of better, but don't have access to the data and couldn't post it anyway.) I can't speak to B-R's VORP implementation, but PER is a hugely team-dependent statistic--this is the reverse of the "no, he really is playing like shit despite his PER" of Memphis-era Rudy Gay. Bradley has a low usage rate and his skills aren't box-score ones.

There are what seem to be good ways to quantify basketball performance, and Zach Lowe has publicly talked about some of the low-hanging fruit, but you need much better data sets than are publicly accessible to do it.

 

[tbrown_01923]

If Rondo took care of the ball, made at least a token attempt to stay between his man and the basket and made 70% of his free throws, I wouldn't be so hard on him.  Is that too much to ask from a $12M player?

 
I guess this is the same critique I have had for quite a few years.  It seems like the flaw in his game are correctable by effort.  He exerted more effort defensively in hist first few years - so we know its possible.  I don't buy his FT problems being mental (and even if they are see a shrink).  His shot anything but soft, and the directionality is inconsistent - both should be solvable problems for someone who is willing to find the right approach.  Further I don't have a lot of confidence in him finishing at the rim - though I suspect the hated "passing up a layup for an assist" plays occur far less often than I remember them.
 
Yes he has the best vision in the game - but is that as important in todays game as it was 15 years ago?  Is it possible to quantify different basketball skills?  Has the three ball changed the requirements of ball distribution?   
 
I don't like the isolation and three's generation of basketball, as much as the motion offense based game.  Why have teams recently favored the former?  Is it easier to win?  Easier to build?  Should this influence how we evaluate  points?

 

[ifmanis5]

Back to Bradley for a moment -- I went looking for some overall statistics and chose -- without knowing what the results would be -- PER and VORP as shown on basketball reference.  I looked at shooting guards who have played more than 300 minutes so far this year.  There are 38 such shooting guards with a PER better than Bradley's.

Agreed, Bradley's progression is troubling. He has improved his confidence in his shot but all the other parts of his game have regressed. Where are the steals and blocks? He seems to shy away from all contact and wants to just hang out behind the 3-point line. Is he afraid of more shoulder injuries? This is not the guy we saw who was blocking Wade with regularity.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Re: Rondo's shooting. While improved over the years his form is absolute dogshit. I suck at posting pictures but there are some good ones out there. He doesn't come anywhere close to squaring his shoulders to the basket. His guide hand is behind the ball rather than on the side. His shooting elbow is cocked out to the side instead of under the ball. The ball itself rests in his palm with the heel in contact with the ball rather than on finger tips. Some guys get by or even excel (Larry) with terrible form. He could be trying some tweaks to improve rather than repetition of bad habits.

I'd consider myself a Rondo apologist, but I cringe when he's at the free throw line. Someone send him some Dave Hopla tapes for the love of God.

 

[Koufax]

Good point, Blacken about the unreliability of the PER stat.  I use it because its available, objective and league-wide.  The best players tend to be bunched up at the top, so it must be measuring something in a half-decent manner.  But choosing to rely on what my eyes see when I watch the game over dry numbers of dubious value, I retract my admission that Jeff Green is very good.  Sullinger is a tougher call.  Maybe he is very good right now.

 

[Blacken]

PER is not objective, though. It's Hollinger's opinions and personal biases turned into a math formula. I can guarantee you that he's not using it today to power his decision-making; he himself has discussed its problems at length. Analysis via the box score is just completely flawed for players who are not racking up blocks and, to a lesser extent, steals.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

I don't think Rondo is a good player at all.  It's not whether you can play, it's whether you can make plays, and Rondo doesn't.  We see bricked shots, bricked free throws and turnovers at the worst possible time, when he tries to make the flashy pass instead of the sensible pass.  His defense has been even worse.  He couldn't handle Dennis fucking Schroeder, never mind any of the decent pgs in the league, all of whom get by him with regularity.
 
When you have a bad player who dominates the ball, it's difficult to evaluate the players around him.

 

You also think Dwight Howard sucks, so...