Difference Makers

Shelterdog

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So I've been thinking about the term "difference maker" a lot lately--in particular media guys like saying the Pats need more "difference makers" and that's what we need find in freea gency--and lo and behold someone with the good taste to love the Pixies drops this gem:
 
ifmanis5 said:
Revis is not a difference maker and should not be targeted by a team that has no pass rush, whatever the price might be.
 
I think I speak for the majority when I say that if Revis isn't a difference maker then there are only about five guys in the league who are.  But it got me thinking: what do you mean when you use the term difference maker? How many difference makers are there currently on the Patriots? Do NFL teams in fact need tons of difference makers?
 
For me a difference maker is a guy who's that much better than average at his position that he could help you win extra games.   Current Pats difference makers in my book are Brady, Jones, and--if healthy-Gronk, Wilfork, Mankins and Mayo, with Ninkovich, Solder and Vollmer just on the outside looking in, Talib qualifying if healthy and a Pat, and Edelman just missing out.   But what do others think? 
 

RedOctober3829

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Shelterdog said:
So I've been thinking about the term "difference maker" a lot lately--in particular media guys like saying the Pats need more "difference makers" and that's what we need find in freea gency--and lo and behold someone with the good taste to love the Pixies drops this gem:
 
 
I think I speak for the majority when I say that if Revis isn't a difference maker then there are only about five guys in the league who are.  But it got me thinking: what do you mean when you use the term difference maker? How many difference makers are there currently on the Patriots? Do NFL teams in fact need tons of difference makers?
 
For me a difference maker is a guy who's that much better than average at his position that he could help you win extra games.   Current Pats difference makers in my book are Brady, Jones, and--if healthy-Gronk, Wilfork, Mankins and Mayo, with Ninkovich, Solder and Vollmer just on the outside looking in, Talib qualifying if healthy and a Pat, and Edelman just missing out.   But what do others think? 
I view a difference maker as somebody who is a top 5 player at his position by all phases of evaluation(i.e. analytics and "eye test"). 
 
"Difference makers" on the team now are Brady, Wilfork, Gronkowski for sure.  Talib when healthy.  Can Solder, Vollmer, and Jones develop into ones?  We'll see.  I do know there are no sure fire difference makers in the secondary or at wide receiver.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think the term is kind of stupid.  Fielding a solid average player makes a difference too when compared to fielding a really bad player.
 
Maybe a more useful way to think is in terms of guys that force the other team to change their schemes or that allow your team more schematic versatility.  These are usually players who can consistently win 1-on-1 matchups or do so at a rate much higher than normal.   Gronk, Talib, McCourty, and maybe Solder and Jones are the only non-QBs who meet this standard IMO. 
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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RedOctober3829 said:
I view a difference maker as somebody who is a top 5 player at his position by all phases of evaluation(i.e. analytics and "eye test"). 
 
"Difference makers" on the team now are Brady, Wilfork, Gronkowski for sure.  Talib when healthy.  Can Solder, Vollmer, and Jones develop into ones?  We'll see.  I do know there are no sure fire difference makers in the secondary or at wide receiver.
 
I'd consider McCourty a difference maker. He helped stabilize the back end of the secondary when he moved to FS. Without him back there the D seemed to get beat deep more often.
 

Super Nomario

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Shelterdog said:
I think I speak for the majority when I say that if Revis isn't a difference maker then there are only about five guys in the league who are.  But it got me thinking: what do you mean when you use the term difference maker? How many difference makers are there currently on the Patriots? Do NFL teams in fact need tons of difference makers?
 
For me a difference maker is a guy who's that much better than average at his position that he could help you win extra games.   Current Pats difference makers in my book are Brady, Jones, and--if healthy-Gronk, Wilfork, Mankins and Mayo, with Ninkovich, Solder and Vollmer just on the outside looking in, Talib qualifying if healthy and a Pat, and Edelman just missing out.   But what do others think? 
There are different kinds of difference-makers - some guys make plays, and some guys are able to play expanded roles that let others make plays. Wilfork rarely leads the team in tackles, but because he has to be double-teamed much of the time, he frees up other guys to make tackles. Devin McCourty, who you didn't name, was IMO the best player on the defense last year; he's able to take away a lot deep by himself, and that lets them play another safety in the box (helping the D on TEs, in run defense, and on patterns over the middle). I think some people don't think someone's a "difference maker" unless they're pulling 12 sacks or 6 INTs, but other guys make those feats possible. Revis has averaged just 3 INTs / year in his career, but he also effectively takes away an opponent's best receiver; that's a huge difference maker.
 
I'd probably swap Mankins and Vollmer; at this stage of their careers, I think Vollmer is the best OL and Mankins is merely good. I think Jones and Ninkovich are generally overrated on BBtL; they're pretty good players that folks talk about like they're stars or close to it.
 

Shelterdog

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Super Nomario said:
There are different kinds of difference-makers - some guys make plays, and some guys are able to play expanded roles that let others make plays. Wilfork rarely leads the team in tackles, but because he has to be double-teamed much of the time, he frees up other guys to make tackles. Devin McCourty, who you didn't name, was IMO the best player on the defense last year; he's able to take away a lot deep by himself, and that lets them play another safety in the box (helping the D on TEs, in run defense, and on patterns over the middle). I think some people don't think someone's a "difference maker" unless they're pulling 12 sacks or 6 INTs, but other guys make those feats possible. Revis has averaged just 3 INTs / year in his career, but he also effectively takes away an opponent's best receiver; that's a huge difference maker.
 
I'd probably swap Mankins and Vollmer; at this stage of their careers, I think Vollmer is the best OL and Mankins is merely good. I think Jones and Ninkovich are generally overrated on BBtL; they're pretty good players that folks talk about like they're stars or close to it.
 
I'd include McCourty using my definition, you're right about that.  I really like Mankins but he's a tough call.
 
I mostly find the term stupid--it's not defined and I think the implicit understanding is that it means a guy who makes huge plays that get on sports center every now and then (which is why someone can say Revis is not a difference maker because, hey, how often does that guy get an interception).
 
Jones and Ninkovich are intersting examples in discussing the term.  I think they're about the 10th and 20th best defensive ends in the league, Jones in particular demends double coverage or a chip most of the time, they're probably far better than anybody you can draft at 29.  If those guys aren't difference makers--and depending on your definition, they may not be--then, well, you can pretty much kiss your chances of picking up a difference maker goodbye.
 

lambeau

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Isn't it really the WAR priciple?
Colin Cowherd just said the Super Bowl line didn't move when Gronk went down before playing the Giants,proving receivers cannot be difference-makers.
I don't think that's right and Gronk obviously is--and Revis sure as hell is too.
 

Jungleland

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I'm certainly not advocating for the idea that Welker or Edelman is a top 5 receiver in the league, but both were difference makers in this offense, instrumental to running the attack that Brady is best suited for at this point in his career. I think you take that caliber of player off this team entirely and you'll very quickly hear elite slot receiver being a Pats necessity on the level of a Talib/Hernandez/Moss replacement. If this discussion is going to include anyone on either of our lines, I think Edelman belongs in the conversation.
 

ifmanis5

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Shelterdog said:
So I've been thinking about the term "difference maker" a lot lately--in particular media guys like saying the Pats need more "difference makers" and that's what we need find in freea gency--and lo and behold someone with the good taste to love the Pixies drops this gem:
 
I think I speak for the majority when I say that if Revis isn't a difference maker then there are only about five guys in the league who are.  But it got me thinking: what do you mean when you use the term difference maker? How many difference makers are there currently on the Patriots? Do NFL teams in fact need tons of difference makers?
I think the term would vary from team to team based on need more than just talent. In the Pats case, an elite pass rusher would change their equation quite a bit. Adding Revis much less so.
 

Jungleland

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Even if Talib is gone? Two years in a row it was almost a night and day difference when the team fielded healthy Talib vs. when it didn't. It's been completely frustrating to watch this team go huge stretches without being able to rush the passer, but ultimately given the choice between going to battle with what we have currently and adding a great pass rusher or a great #1 corner I'm not sure the Dennard/Ryan/Arrington trio isn't a far greater liability than Jones/Ninkovich.
 

Super Nomario

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Shelterdog said:
Jones and Ninkovich are intersting examples in discussing the term.  I think they're about the 10th and 20th best defensive ends in the league, Jones in particular demends double coverage or a chip most of the time, they're probably far better than anybody you can draft at 29.  If those guys aren't difference makers--and depending on your definition, they may not be--then, well, you can pretty much kiss your chances of picking up a difference maker goodbye.
I don't agree re: Jones - I see him handled one-on-one a lot. I'd love to see someone charting him in this respect versus other top edge rushers. I'd probably have him somewhere around the 20th-best edge rusher (fairer to compare him to 3-4 OLBs than 3-4 DEs, I think) - that's above-average since there are 64 starting edge rushers, but not enough above-average for a "difference-maker" moniker (IMO; I agree the label is arbitrary). He had 11.5 sacks, but I think there are quite a few guys who would get that many if they rushed the passer 600+ times in a season. I'm not sure how to weigh the fact that he and Ninkovich played almost every snap. That might make them "difference-makers" in terms of roster construction, since they didn't need to spend for a credible third edge rusher; on the other hand, the pass rush was pretty sorry at times, so it's hard for me to see that playing every down made them "difference-makers" on the field. Ditto Ninkovich's ability to shift to LB; it helps in roster construction, but I don't think it makes him a "difference-maker."
 
I actually agree about pick 29 - expecting a difference-maker with that pick is too much. You're more likely to get a solid contributor on a cheap contract for several years. Eyeballing the 27th-31st picks from 2005-2011, it looks like there's usually 1 difference-maker, 1 bust, and 3 contributors in that group of 5.