#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Hendu for Kutch]

To play devils advocate, other than it not being in the Wells Report, who's to say they haven't told the Patriots to knock it off before? Or knock something off?

I continue to be interested by the number of reputational complaints about the Patriots – from Bedard's GB claim and owners saying the league "had enough on them," to the stories about stolen playbook and even that crazy-ass paranoid article on Yahoo Sports back in February about the positioning of the Jumbotron at Gillette. The sheer volume of these complaints is literally the only thing that gives me pause about any of this as a Pats fan, including the texts which I don't think suggest much less prove a thing: the fact that there seems to be such certainty around the league that the Patriots are institutional cheaters and where there is smoke there must be fire.

 
Look at the leaks that came out with blatantly false infomation on this case.  And you then think the NFL is covering up on all these other things they know about?  Why?  Because they don't want to smear the Patriots?  I can't see how you can think that based on what happened in this case.
 
More likely that their sustained success over such a long period has everyone seeing ghosts. 
 
- Communication systems fail all the time, it's not that irregular.  But when it happens in Foxboro?  Cheating! 
 
- Ball feels a little squishy during a cold game.  Due to physics, this happens in literally every cold weather game where the ball was inflated properly beforehand.  But it happened in Foxboro?  Cheating! 
 
- Legal formations that you weren't prepared for?  In Detroit?  Yawn.  In Foxboro?  Cheating!
 
I mean, how many things have you heard complaints about over the past 15 years concerning the Patriots, but hear zero about in other places?  Off the top of my head...
 
- Secondary makes too much contact
- Quick snap and hurry up offense is cheap
- Legal formations are "deceptive"
- Player passes concussion protocol, but it should have been tougher
- XP changes introduced to give Patriots an advantage
- Fake timeouts confuse kickers
- The tuck rule, despite the rule being called correctly as written and not even being called by the Pats (this was listed as a Patriots "scandal" by ABC for fuck's sake)
- "Mysterious" occasional communication outages
- Football air pressure
- Jumbotron replays
 
I mean, honestly, does anyone doubt that if any team besides the Patriots pulled those formations to help win a playoff game, they'd have been verbally blown by the media for their ingenuity?  Imagine if the roles were reversed and the Ravens used them to beat the Patriots.  Do you think anyone even utters the thought that it's dishonest or cheating?  Of course not. 
 
The bottom line is that if you want to see something, you'll see it.  The most likely reason that none of these claims have stuck or even been made public is because they're bullshit and wouldn't hold up to an ounce of scrutiny.  Where there's smoke, there's fire...or a smoke machine running behind the scenes.

 

[Reverend]

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/24/memorial-day-nfl-veterans-tom-brady-deflategate/4/

Greg Bedard in today's MMQB.
...
"Wells probably didnt go there because he didnt whether it would help or hurt his case, and he didnt want to take that chance."

Wait, I've been tuned out for a few days--are we just accepting that the Wells report was advocacy now and accepting that that is legit?

Because that's not a true investigative report he is describing, and what he is describing is certainly not an acceptable evidentiary basis upon which to found a disciplinary ruling.

 

[Joshv02]

According to Goddell's public comments that was one of the reasons for the delay. He was on some show ~week before the report came out talking about how Wells had to figure out if the AFCCG was the first time or if there were others. I remember this as it was noteworthy his choice of words assumed guilt but was told I was reading into it too much. I can't find the link.

Edit: got it via PM


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-player-misconduct-policy-concussion-settlement-deflategate/

 
 

Wait, I've been tuned out for a few days--are we just accepting that the Wells report was advocacy now and accepting that that is legit?

Because that's not a true investigative report he is describing, and what he is describing is certainly not an acceptable evidentiary basis upon which to found a disciplinary ruling.

Perfect.  So to combine these thoughts: they looked, decided there wasn't enough to pursue that as a narrative, then didn't actually say that is what they did... and passed that off as non-advocacy.  

 

[ifmanis5]

I Love Hendu's post. LOVE. We're already engaged.
 
EDIT: would also add the long line of Dive Guys other teams used. How much flack did those teams get? Imagine if the Pats did that on a regular basis? And the WR pick plays that other teams use all the time, but when the Pats do it, it's somehow a problem.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I mean, honestly, does anyone doubt that if any team besides the Patriots pulled those formations to help win a playoff game, they'd have been verbally blown by the media for their ingenuity?  Imagine if the roles were reversed and the Ravens used them to beat the Patriots.  Do you think anyone even utters the thought that it's dishonest or cheating?  Of course not. 

 
We already have the example of the Wildcat being unleashed on the Pats by Miami and leading to a big win. They got endless praise for that and soon every team was messing around with it.

 

[troparra]

 
 
More likely that their sustained success over such a long period has everyone seeing ghosts. 
 

 
We have evidence for this.  The Colts thought the intercepted ball was soft, upon measurement it was within the range explained by weather conditions.
John Harbaugh goes nuts the game before when he thinks the Patriots are cheating when they weren't.
Kurt Warner still wonders whether the Patriots cheated him out of a SB victory.
After seemingly every game Pats-Jets game, Jets fans come up with some way the Pats are gaining an advantage through nefarious means. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
We have evidence for this.  The Colts thought the intercepted ball was soft, upon measurement it was within the range explained by weather conditions.
John Harbaugh goes nuts the game before when he thinks the Patriots are cheating when they weren't.
Kurt Warner still wonders whether the Patriots cheated him out of a SB victory.
After seemingly every game Pats-Jets game, Jets fans come up with some way the Pats are gaining an advantage through nefarious means. 

 
The so-called manly men of the NFL are too often a bunch of chattering, whiny children.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
We already have the example of the Wildcat being unleashed on the Pats by Miami and leading to a big win. They got endless praise for that and soon every team was messing around with it.

 
This is an incredible point.  Another team tries something innovative against the Patriots and they receive praise and everyone copies it.
 
The Patriots try something innovative against the Ravens and everyone whines and complains and as soon as the season ends, they change the rules.
 
I mean, think about that for a minute.
 
It happened earlier with the Colts and the Pats' DBs mauling people.  Other teams did it, including to the Patriots.  No problem.  Everyone else copies it.  The Patriots do it to the Colts, and the Colts whine and get the rule changed.

 

[tims4wins]

 
This is an incredible point.  Another team tries something innovative against the Patriots and they receive praise and everyone copies it.
 
The Patriots try something innovative against the Ravens and everyone whines and complains and as soon as the season ends, they change the rules.

 
The thing is, this isn't even true. The Lions did it earlier in the season against the Vikings. They got sacked on the play. The Pats then had success running it 3 times against Baltimore. and there was uproar. Of course people forget that the following week the Pats ran it twice against the Colts, and the results were a dropped screen pass, and a sack. So it was an easy adjustment for the defense to make. Just like NFL defenses stopped the wildcat without needing a rule change.
 
It was a one-time, game plan wrinkle that had some success, not some long term offensive strategy that would work.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
The thing is, this isn't even true. The Lions did it earlier in the season against the Vikings. They got sacked on the play. The Pats then had success running it 3 times against Baltimore. and there was uproar. Of course people forget that the following week the Pats ran it twice against the Colts, and the results were a dropped screen pass, and a sack. So it was an easy adjustment for the defense to make. Just like NFL defenses stopped the wildcat without needing a rule change.
 
It was a one-time, game plan wrinkle that had some success, not some long term offensive strategy that would work.

 
Yep, agreed.  Though it was still innovative.  They didn't invent it, of course.  But it was obviously pretty new to the Ravens.
 
And often people attribute other rule changes to the Patriots.  The "Brady" rule - no hitting the QB at the knees.  That is so often mistakenly attributed to protecting Brady.  But it was in place long before Brady got taken out.

 

[Ed Hillel]

They got endless praise for that and soon every team was messing around with it.

 
Here was Belichick on it:
 

Bill Belichick: Well, there is not too much to say here. I thought that Miami played a real good football game. They did everything a lot better than we did. The outplayed us. They out coached us. They certainly dominated on offense and defense. I thought we were competitive in the kicking game but that was about it, not on the offensive or defensive sides of the ball. They obviously deserved to win. They were the better team and they did everything a lot better than we did today. Not too much to say.

 
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/dolphins-and-wildcat-offense-heres-how-they-did-it/?_r=0

 

[NortheasternPJ]

#soreloser

 

[TheoShmeo]

I kind of rolled my eyes over the past several weeks when fellow Pats fans played the "Pats are Persecuted" card.
 
Then I read Hendu's excellent post.
 
Enough.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

That's the amazing thing about ALL of this Patriots-related nonsense.  Crotchety or no, in a very real way there is no more respectful, sportsmanlike individual in football than Bill Belichick.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

This is why we love Baseball.
 

{on stealing signs}
 
"It's not cheating, it's just trying," said Padres veteran Matt Stairs..."If anybody thinks it isn't going on, they're living in a fantasy world. And with the technology that's available today, with all the video, nobody should be fooled by it.
 
"The bottom line is that it's tough to win games in this league and there's a lot of pressure to win games. So teams are going to look for every type of edge within the rules, and you can't really blame them for it."
 
... Royals bench coach John Gibbons, a former big league manager and catcher, said he doesn't think you're doing your job right if you don't try to steal another team's signs..."I think that's been a part of baseball forever," Gibbons said. "I'm sure we do it. Everybody tries it. All you're doing is looking for an advantage."
 

 

"I can remember back in the old ballpark in Cleveland years ago, Alvin Dark was the manager, and he'd have a guy sitting out in center field that had sanitary [socks] on with a pair of binoculars," Moore says. "If it was a breaking ball, he'd pull his pant leg up and you could see the white sanitary and you could know the breaking ball was coming.
 
"And the White Sox, years ago in their scoreboard, they'd have a light in their scoreboard in Chicago at the old ballpark. They'd have a guy in the scoreboard with binoculars. If it was a breaking ball, off-speed pitch, a light would come on. And about the only person who could see it would be the hitter. Because he was looking right over the pitcher's head and the center fielder's head and you could see the little small light come on."
 

 
The horror

 

[soxhop411]

@nflnetwork: A Football Life: Ray Lewis starts NEXT! http://t.co/LtgrQE0vEm

NFL is tone deaf

 

[ifmanis5]

Here's one of many articles on Brian Urlacher, first ballot HOF'er and Integrity of the Game guy, describing the Bears' Dive Guy tactics. In the article Terrell Suggs admits it's a great idea and plans on using it himself. Can only imagine the amount of finger wagging if the Pats were caught doing this. LINK: http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2013/09/04/brian-urlacher-dive-guy-chicago-bears-fake-injuries

 

[Saints Rest]

The union will be more than happy to use this case to further weaken the Goodell regime, but who will show up in Roger's office:  Easygoing Tom of contract negotiations, or Mad Dog Tom the field general?

I think it will be the Tom who said this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa-L0necxhA

 

[Ed Hillel]

Apropos of the current conversation, I was watching NFL Turning Point for the Ravens and LaFell says afterwards that they never even practiced the play. Belichick and McDaniels came up with the play during the 3rd quarter on the sidelines and executed.
 
Here's the video, it's pretty cool. This is all the guy recorded, I'd love to get more of these turning point videos:
 
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WahWVPefz0[/youtube]

 

[lexrageorge]

Mike Reiss is very polite, but I think he basically called BS on Ron Borges' "Belichick didn't believe Brady" report:
 
https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/601879063804911617

While I was shouted down for bringing this point up in another thread, I will point out that there's a galaxy of a difference when a reporter says "from what I've been told" versus "my sources tell me...".  Reporters are trained to use the right phrases at the right time, and Borges did not say anything about sources inside the team or the NFL.  I trust Reiss' sources far more than any 4th hand hearsay that Borges is throwing around.

 

[ipol]

Apologies for pandering. Just another story where one is asked to celebrate "gamesmanship". 
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/colorado-hs-baseball-team-wins-hidden-ball-trick-article-1.2234613

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Bedard's right that it's an enormous hole in the Wells Report that they didn't establish a pattern. The report mentions the note from Sean Sullivan (Colts equipment manager), forward by Grigson, that "it is well known throughout the league" that the ball boys deflate footballs after inspection. How far did they chase this lead? They interviewed Sullivan. Did he point them anywhere specific? They interviewed two Ravens coaches, but no one else from any other teams but New England and Baltimore.
 
That's important, because the timing of the "Deflator" text, the October texts, and the "jacket" text is irrelevant to the 1/18 game unless the Patriots were in a long pattern of tampering with footballs. I wonder if Wells et al set the scope of the investigation, or if the league did.

 
Almost a sure thing the league set it, including adjustments during the investigation (e.g. what to continue to dig on and what not to)

 

[naclone]

With regard to the whispers surrounding the Pats, I tend to believe that it's Keyser Soze ghost stories resulting from teams being genuinely mystified by how BB does it.

The thing I cant quite sort is that the league is so migratory in nature and dozens of coaches, players, scouts, personnel guys etc have gone from the Patriots to other teams. So should we expect that there would be more concrete details about how when and where the Pats cheat in the wind? Or is the "it is well known the Patriots do such and such" the result of former Pats guys shooting their mouths off, "you wouldnt believe the shit we used to pull in Foxborough..." and grounded in fact?

I can't help but think the one time we got busted and copped to it, it was a situation where the opposing coach had direct knowledge of our procedures because he used to work there. Everything else has been bogey man stuff.

 

[Hendu for Kutch]

With regard to the whispers surrounding the Pats, I tend to believe that it's Keyser Soze ghost stories resulting from teams being genuinely mystified by how BB does it.

The thing I cant quite sort is that the league is so migratory in nature and dozens of coaches, players, scouts, personnel guys etc have gone from the Patriots to other teams. So should we expect that there would be more concrete details about how when and where the Pats cheat in the wind? Or is the "it is well known the Patriots do such and such" the result of former Pats guys shooting their mouths off, "you wouldnt believe the shit we used to pull in Foxborough..." and grounded in fact?

I can't help but think the one time we got busted and copped to it, it was a situation where the opposing coach had direct knowledge of our procedures because he used to work there. Everything else has been bogey man stuff.

 
On the bolded, it was common knowledge.  There are stories of Herm Edwards and other coaches waving to and making faces at the camera.  So it wasn't like some clandestine practice was revealed by Mangini.
 
In addition to the previous off the top of my head examples, there were a couple more I thought of:
 
- the refs helping the Patriots by positioning Hightower to avoid a penalty, which was completely commonplace but nobody ever noticed until...the Patriots benefited from it!
- the controversy of lining up over the center on a FG attempt and not getting penalized, even though there was a readily available angle that showed the player was well off the line of scrimmage
 
Both were actual controversies, for no reason other than the team that "benefited" from them.

 

[Van Everyman]

I Love Hendu's post. LOVE. We're already engaged.
 
EDIT: would also add the long line of Dive Guys other teams used. How much flack did those teams get? Imagine if the Pats did that on a regular basis? And the WR pick plays that other teams use all the time, but when the Pats do it, it's somehow a problem.

I concur. This is an amazing post all around.

But can't this all be true AND the Pats are "cheaters" in the sense that they do a lot of shit that's against the rules?

I guess what I'm saying is that I think football is a dirty game, rife with deceptive bullshit and organizations generally working overtime to ratfuck one another. Off the top of my head:

George Allen used to send spies to opponents' practices.

Jimmy Johnson used to videotape the shit out of his opponents.

The NYJ were busted for using "the wall" formation on the sidelines.

Don Shula warned players they would be cut from their teams unless they took painkillers and returned to the field.

And then there's player stuff like the Broncos' linemen coating their arms and the backs of their jerseys in Vaseline, Jerry Rice using to use stickum and Aaron Rodgers liking his balls overinflated.

Why would the Patriots be immune to this? Wouldn't logic hold that they are simply better at all this crap too? And that everyone else is jealous of them for this too?

To me, the false argument here isn't that the Pats are undermining the integrity of the game because they do any of this shit. It's that they are the exception.

 

[JimBoSox9]

 
 
We get it everyone.
 
After ONE more example of some NFL inventiveness that would have been outlawed had BB done it first, I think we're all good here.

 
 
 

I concur. This is an amazing post all around.

But can't this all be true AND the Pats are "cheaters" in the sense that they do a lot of shit that's against the rules?

I guess what I'm saying is that I think football is a dirty game, rife with deceptive bullshit and organizations generally working overtime to ratfuck one another. Off the top of my head:

George Allen used to send spies to opponents' practices.

Jimmy Johnson used to videotape the shit out of his opponents.

The NYJ were busted for using "the wall" formation on the sidelines.

Don Shula warned players they would be cut from their teams unless they took painkillers and returned to the field.

And then there's player stuff like the Broncos' linemen coating their arms and the backs of their jerseys in Vaseline, Jerry Rice using to use stickum and Aaron Rodgers liking his balls overinflated.

Why would the Patriots be immune to this? Wouldn't logic hold that they are simply better at all this crap too? And that everyone else is jealous of them for this too?

To me, the false argument here isn't that the Pats are undermining the integrity of the game because they do any of this shit. It's that they are the exception.

 
I think he meant one example, not one post filled with examples.  You did, however, forget to point out that the NFL ALSO doesn't punish off-field violent behavior as severely as on-field 'transgressions', and provide 3-5 examples of such.  Points deducted.

 

[Gorton Fisherman]

So the new bullcrap "Pats/Brady are bad people" meme that the local media has apparently latched onto is "WHY WON'T BRADY SPEAK?!?"  "WHY THE SILENCE?!"  "HE MOST KNOW IF HE SEZ ANYTHING IT WILL PROVE HE'S GUILTY!!$!"  
 
Seriously, what is wrong with these people?
 

 

[Padaiyappa]

So the new bullcrap "Pats/Brady are bad people" meme that the local media has apparently latched onto is "WHY WON'T BRADY SPEAK?!?"  "WHY THE SILENCE?!"  "HE MOST KNOW IF HE SEZ ANYTHING IT WILL PROVE HE'S GUILTY!!$!"  
 
Seriously, what is wrong with these people?
 

If Brady speaks he will be critically analyzed by every news media, things will be taken out of context, and judgement will be passed, his statements will be turned into memes, and auto-tuned/songified...Even if he says the right things he will be considered a joke outside NE....My guess is he will issue a statement and let the Lawyers speak for him...

 

[lexrageorge]

Brady's first priority right now is to win his appeal.  There's nothing he can say publicly that would help in that regard.  And there's lots of downside to speaking out right now.  I'm sure Kessler and Yee have both reminded him of that. But these points are too complicated for the local mediots to understand; we should know that by now. 

 

[TheoShmeo]

I LOVE that Tom is not dignifying the swirling bullshit by talking.  There is absolutely nothing to be gained by issuing a statement or mollifying naïve mental munchkins like Chris Gasper at this point.  Let the appeal play out and go from there.  Perfect.

 

[Van Everyman]

I completely agree – one hopes that Brady understands that his stature as an athlete derives from a lot more than the PSI of the footballs he throws and that responding to this whole charade for PR purposes only legitimizes it.

The odds of this being seen as incredibly silly or irrelevant to his career by the vast majority of people in the years to come are quite high.

 

[simplyeric]

He should appear at some sort of anti domestic violence event and agree to answer questions.
Then when some reporter asks him about deflategate he should a. say that he can't comment at this time, and b. ask the reporter if they are remotely serious, and whether they think that deflategate is more important than domestic violence.

(By 'should' I don't mean that he actually should.)

 

[soxhop411]

NFL has a problem

@katienelson210: BREAKING: Ray McDonald arrested at 3:35 p.m. for violating restraining order, per @SantaClaraPD @mercnews

 

[BroodsSexton]

Apropos of the current conversation, I was watching NFL Turning Point for the Ravens and LaFell says afterwards that they never even practiced the play. Belichick and McDaniels came up with the play during the 3rd quarter on the sidelines and executed.
 
Here's the video, it's pretty cool. This is all the guy recorded, I'd love to get more of these turning point videos

It's easy to forget with the Butler catch just how great that game against Baltimore was. What a game.

 

[txexile]

Given how an important a role the Collective Bargaining Agreement is playing in determining that the Commissioner hear the NFLPA/Brady appeal, it seems as if the CBA's rules on setting the date for an appeal are being ignored. Yesterday was 10 days after the filing of the NFLPA appeal , the deadline for setting a date. I've heard nothing yet. Has anyone heard or read otherwise?

 

[DJnVa]

There as some talk that the NFLPA's request for Goodell to recuse himself may have restarted the clock.
 
Or that both sides agreed to delay.

 

[SuperManny]

There as some talk that the NFLPA's request for Goodell to recuse himself may have restarted the clock.
 
Or that both sides agreed to delay.

 
I don't see the benefit of the NFLPA agreeing to a delay given that this is probably going to court.

 

[DJnVa]

 
I don't see the benefit of the NFLPA agreeing to a delay given that this is probably going to court.

 
 
I don't either, but then again, we're like 0 for 6,000 in figuring this stuff out.
 

 

 

[tims4wins]

Anyone see this from last week?
 
http://foxboroughfreepress.blogspot.com/2015/05/bob-kraft-craftier-than-percieved.html
 

That time will come upon the completion of the appellate process for Patriots' quarterback Tom Brady, who was slapped with a four-game suspension for his alleged role in the saga - a process for which he has turned to NFL killer, attorney Jeffery Kessler to resolve for him.

It is unlikely that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell will budge from the punishment that he authorized for Brady, and Kraft knows this.  He also knows that the next step is to Federal Court where the NFL and Kessler will meet in mediation and, ultimately, with a court-appointed independent arbitrator...

...which will satisfy the demands of the NFLPA, and will likely strike down the punishment handed to Brady - or at least reduce it to a more fair sentence, at which time Kraft can take the results of the arbitration and then demand like-relief - because it goes without saying that the penalties handed to the Patriots, a $1 million fine and the loss of a first and fourth round draft pick, is excessive, given the crime - which was never proven anyway.

But that's only the tip of the iceberg.

In all likelihood, Kessler will tear down the Wells' Report, the 200-plus page indictment drawn up by prominent New York attorney Ted Wells at the conclusion of  his "independent investigation" on behalf of the league - which was anything but independent, given Wells' relationship with Goodell and the league - which appears to be fabricated and certainly was not unbiased, which was Kraft's assertion from the release of the document.

But Kraft's move is not dependent on Brady's suspension being reduced or overturned, rather, it is tied to the language in the Wells' report - and it just so happens that for Kessler to get justice for Brady, he will have to destroy the report, the very thing that will give Kraft the leverage that he needs to attack the league for redress of the monumental punishment.

Because if Kraft were to attack now, the Wells' Report stands in his way, flawed as it is - and he stands to lose much more than just an appeal, as filing an appeal in Federal court against the NFL also means that he is filing a lawsuit against the 31 other franchise owners, and if it comes down to a fight between Kraft and Goodell with the evidence that Kraft has in his favor now - which is none - it would take but 24 of the other owners in a vote to force Kraft to relinquish his ownership of the Patriots...

...which would be unlikely, but why take the chance?  Kraft has taken the prudent, albeit unknown and secretive path to salvation, employing his renowned patience and waiting for Brady's appellate process to expose the report as biased and, indeed, partial to the league and unfair to the Patriots and to Brady, then come out with a brace of legal beagles who will file perhaps one of the largest unfair practice suits in the history of professional sports.

 

[Van Everyman]

Interesting. One question I'm sure has been addressed but I haven't seen:

If Brady/Kessler destroy the report in court and the independent arbitrator throws out Brady's suspension in court, does the arbitrator have the ability to throw out the sanctions against the team as well? Or is there a firewall between these two aspects of the report?

Asking because the case against Brady is almost entirely dependent on the case against the team, ergo Brady (a la Brunell's argument) must have known as the QB and thus is guilty. If Kessler goes deeper than the texts and successfully argues that the underlying science of the whole thing is bunk (as I'm assuming he would), could the arbitrator vacate the team sanctions as well? Or would he/she just simply say something to the effect of "Goodell overstepped his bounds here and based his punishment on shoddy research and flawed logic" (which is IIRC more or less what the arbitrators have said in the Peterson, Rice and Bountygate cases).

 

[riboflav]

There is no way Kraft is going to ask for a reduction in penalties no matter what happens in the Brady appeal process. He'd look like a complete fool after making a public statement in which he states he will not only abide by the decision and not challenge the penalties handed out, but that he has total respect for Goodell and the power of the Commissioner's Office to do whatever the hell they want. If he were going to let the process play out and then pounce after Kessler is done with Goodell, then why make such a bold public statement? And he certainly would have left out the part about sucking up to Goodell and his power.

 

[Valek123]

Anyone see this from last week?
 
http://foxboroughfreepress.blogspot.com/2015/05/bob-kraft-craftier-than-percieved.html
 

 
This has been my thought for quite sometime, until the wells report is officially destroyed in a court of law Kraft has/had no recourse.  Once that happens he could push for a reduction at least in the draft pick area.  I think at the end of the day procedures were broken in the ball control before the game, I doubt with the pressure discrepancies that the balls were altered with but I wouldn't be surprised if Kraft ultimately eats the $1mil as punishment for breaking a procedural rule.  I do think he hunts for reduction in the draft, but perhaps that is just wishful thinking the way this has shaken out.  If the Wells report is discredited and flushed in Brady's process as inaccurate, biased and ultimately agenda driven to protect unauthorized leaks early in the process then as mentioned there is no leg to stand on in terms of draft punishment.  All that remains is the bathroom stop and the "procedural violations" that don't effect the integrity of the game which should be more than accounted for by a $1 mil organizational fine.
 
But who the hell knows anymore, this is must watch TV and I'm out of pop-corn and I hate that I still follow this at all.

 

[Reverend]

Given how an important a role the Collective Bargaining Agreement is playing in determining that the Commissioner hear the NFLPA/Brady appeal, it seems as if the CBA's rules on setting the date for an appeal are being ignored. Yesterday was 10 days after the filing of the NFLPA appeal , the deadline for setting a date. I've heard nothing yet. Has anyone heard or read otherwise?

 
I see the league office has managed to plug its leaks.

 

[Valek123]

If Brady/Kessler destroy the report in court and the independent arbitrator throws out Brady's suspension in court, does the arbitrator have the ability to throw out the sanctions against the team as well? Or is there a firewall between these two aspects of the report?

 
Using the Saints scenario even when the players were cleared or reduced the management/team still got hammered.  Apples and oranges and all but I would think it would require Kraft to reopen this and petition the NFL that given the inaccuracies (assuming it is proven by the NFLPA and/or court) of the Wells reports the punishment should be adjusted/reduced.  I do however think that ultimately it would come under Rog's discretion and I can't imagine if he loses the Brady battle the feeling he is going to be displaying is "leniency".
 
As Riboflav says, it would be a significant reversal by Kraft but his spin could easily be that at the time he agreed to take all punishment the Wells report was believed by the NFL as impartial, accurate and justified.  If proven to be false it theoretically could allow him a reprieve, but doing so would almost assuredly follow private conversations between Kraft, the other owners and Rog.  It would be scripted by all involved IMO to save as much face as possible and about as unlikely as me hitting the powerball.

 

[djbayko]

There as some talk that the NFLPA's request for Goodell to recuse himself may have restarted the clock.
 
Or that both sides agreed to delay.

Didn't they request that Goodell recuse himself in the filing itself? How would the clock be restarted?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Anyone see this from last week?
 
http://foxboroughfreepress.blogspot.com/2015/05/bob-kraft-craftier-than-percieved.html
 

 
So, a blogger devoted to following the Patriots writes a treatise that paints the picture in shades that favor the Patriots?
 
Astonishing!

 

[Van Everyman]

Perhaps it's just that I'm sick in bed but this was the best written analysis on the ball pressure readings I've read the far:

http://emailwagon.blogspot.com/2015/05/how-i-trashed-wells-report-from-swan.html?m=1

Good fodder as we look forward to Kessler destroying the report in court.

 

[djbayko]

 
Using the Saints scenario even when the players were cleared or reduced the management/team still got hammered.  Apples and oranges and all but I would think it would require Kraft to reopen this and petition the NFL that given the inaccuracies (assuming it is proven by the NFLPA and/or court) of the Wells reports the punishment should be adjusted/reduced.  I do however think that ultimately it would come under Rog's discretion and I can't imagine if he loses the Brady battle the feeling he is going to be displaying is "leniency".
 
As Riboflav says, it would be a significant reversal by Kraft but his spin could easily be that at the time he agreed to take all punishment the Wells report was believed by the NFL as impartial, accurate and justified.  If proven to be false it theoretically could allow him a reprieve, but doing so would almost assuredly follow private conversations between Kraft, the other owners and Rog.  It would be scripted by all involved IMO to save as much face as possible and about as unlikely as me hitting the powerball.

The Saints case should not be used as an example at all. In his ruling, Tagliabue affirmed the facts of the case but found management responsible. That is why the players' sanctions were vacated.

In this case, people are asking what would happen if the facts of the case were shredded. That being said, I cannot imagine an arbitrator going to the extent of vacating team sanctions. That seems like a huge overreach of jurisdiction.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Valek, I think it would be very hard and very out of character for Kraft to re-launch.
 
He said he was done and would accept the penalty as part of the Club, and like that or not, it's pretty freaking final.
 
In my view, our only hope now is that Tom knocks the games out or the total gets reduced.
 
Unrelated: Chris Gasper continues to soil himself on this story in the Globe.  First he naively argues that Tom should make a statement and make it NOW.  No lawyer worth squat would allow that given the ongoing appeals.  Today, he argues that Patriots Hate is down to arrogance, and brings SpyGate, Kraft's Apology Demand and Being Uncooperative re Witnesses as his indicators.  Only SpyGate makes sense.  SpyGate was exactly a sin of arrogance.  And not much else.  But Kraft SHOULD have been defiant in the week before the Super Bowl.  Being statesman like would have been a huge negative and buzzkill for the team (or it might have).  The witness thing?  Ho hum.  There are arguments on both sides on that and the Context Report makes a good case on why the Pats were well justified in their approach.
 
Opposing fans are rightly taking advantage of the opportunity to needle Pats fans.  It's what fans do.  But to a person, the people I talk to get that DeflateGate is a big nothing and has been wildly bungled by Goodell.  That Goodell did not nip this in the bud BEFORE the AFC Championship Game remains the biggest story of all, and Sally Jenkins and Dan Wetzel have put the Globe writers to shame on every aspect of this silly story in pointing that out recently.  Regardless, people who hate on the Pats do so because they are fans of rival teams, they are tired of seeing one team win so much, Belichick is such a sour puss and unlikable man if you are not rooting for him, and Brady is too damn everything (a top 5 QB of all time, handsome, beautiful wife, richer than rich, cute kids and everything else Tom is).  Sure there are some fans who are steamed by the possibility that the Pats stretch the rules, but suggesting it's all based on that one factor is preposterous.  Similarly, suggesting that we would all lose our minds and think that the sins of DeflateGate actually provided more than the chance for some levity if Peyton Manning was in the middle of it is pretty stupid.  Yes, we'd have fun with it.  But transforming that to actually believing that a serious violation -- such as pumping in freaking crowd noise -- had occurred?  Not bloody likely, Gasper.  

 

[Reverend]

Interesting. One question I'm sure has been addressed but I haven't seen:

If Brady/Kessler destroy the report in court and the independent arbitrator throws out Brady's suspension in court, does the arbitrator have the ability to throw out the sanctions against the team as well? Or is there a firewall between these two aspects of the report?

Asking because the case against Brady is almost entirely dependent on the case against the team, ergo Brady (a la Brunell's argument) must have known as the QB and thus is guilty. If Kessler goes deeper than the texts and successfully argues that the underlying science of the whole thing is bunk (as I'm assuming he would), could the arbitrator vacate the team sanctions as well? Or would he/she just simply say something to the effect of "Goodell overstepped his bounds here and based his punishment on shoddy research and flawed logic" (which is IIRC more or less what the arbitrators have said in the Peterson, Rice and Bountygate cases).

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v11-r3PwiaU