#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


  • Total voters
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Gambler7

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Dec 11, 2003
3,753
ivanvamp said:
 
 
The first bolded part (The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game.) seems to imply that the discipline was handed down by Goodell himself, but that Vincent was just conveying the message.  If that's so, it wouldn't seem to violate the CBA.  
 
HOWEVER, if that's how they want to play it, Goodell can't also be the one to hear the appeal, can he?  I mean, I thought one reason he could hear the appeal was because it is claimed that Vincent is the one who meted out the penalty.  Can they have it both ways?
 
The second bold part (Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game) sure fits in with that particular section of the CBA, however.
 
From the NFL Statement on the Punishment:
 
Commissioner Goodell authorized the discipline that was imposed by NFL Executive President Troy Vincent, pursuant to the commissioner’s disciplinary authority under the NFL Constitution and Bylaws and the Collective Bargaining Agreement with the NFL Players Association.
“We reached these decisions after extensive discussion with Troy Vincent and many others,” Commissioner Goodell said. “We relied on the critical importance of protecting the integrity of the game and the thoroughness and independence of the Wells report.”
 

ivanvamp

captain obvious
Jul 18, 2005
6,104
DrewDawg said:
 
It does read like Vincent is just informing them of Roger's punishment.
 
If so though, then Goodell can't hear the appeal.
 
I wouldn't think so, but I don't know if the CBA allows him to because he's the league's appointed king who can do whatever the hell he wants. 
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
54,093
Rudy Pemberton said:
 
Which doesn't square with Goodell's statement after the Wells report came out.
 
"As with other recent matters involving violations of competitive rules, Troy Vincent and his team will consider what steps to take in light of the report, both with respect to possible disciplinary action and to any changes in protocols that are necessary to avoid future incidents of this type. At the same time, we will continue our efforts vigorously to protect the integrity of the game and promote fair play at all times."
 
 
Good find.
 
They (apparently) fucked up.
 
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Sep 9, 2008
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Holy shit.  There is literally nothing to see about addressing the letter "Troy".  
 
Moving on . . . .
 
 
Average Reds said:
 
The idea that Goodell could order a do-over is precisely why Ray Rice got his suspension vacated.
 
I believe that for better or worse, Goodell is stuck with what the NFL has done here.
 
They could do it.  It wouldn't even be that unusual.  Goodell could simply write a letter to the NFLPA that says he has considered their arguments, disagrees with them about his authority to delegate, but in the interest of avoiding the issue he will accept their argument for this particular case, vacate Vincent's punishment, and issue his own, from which the NFLPA can decide whether to appeal.  While possibly viewed as backtracking in the court of public opinion, I think this would be viewed in a legal challenge as him doing the responsible thing and trying to avoid an unnecessary dispute.
 
The downsides would be two that I can see.  First, he would then clearly have to appoint a neutral arbitrator in any subsequent appeal.  Second, any inconsistencies between his discipline and Vincent's discipline would be fair game and could easily be exploited by Brady and his team in contesting the punishment.  Yet, if he simply imposes the same discipline, he will be accused of rubber stamping.
 
The upside for the league, is that a do-over would give the league the power to fix some of the mistakes that Brady and the press have noted. For example, he could state that he is imposing the punishment, notwithstanding the two-gauge issue and even accepting the lower gauge was used.  (That would give Brady a new target, but maybe not one as easy to hit as he currently has.)
 
ivanvamp said:
The first bolded part (The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game.) seems to imply that the discipline was handed down by Goodell himself, but that Vincent was just conveying the message.  If that's so, it wouldn't seem to violate the CBA.  
 
That's really interesting.  That doesn't seem to be the position the NFLPA is taking at the moment.  They are arguing improper delegation, not that this was the Commissioner's punishment all along.  Either way, at least they have given themselves a nice, meaty legal issue.  I also wonder whether there will be any way for Brady to get discovery in a challenge to an arbitration award, with respect to communication between Vincent and Goodell (which, if they were smart, would have gone through Pash).
 
What's really going to be interesting is when, at the hearing, Brady says, "we call the Commissioner" in putting forth his defense.  Ultimately, if Brady can show that he has a substantial recognized defense under the law of the shop as to which some aspect of the Commissioner's testimony would be relevant, he's going to significantly bolster his argument that the Commissioner should not have presided.
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
I also wonder whether there will be any way for Brady to get discovery in a challenge to an arbitration award, with respect to communication between Vincent and Goodell (which, if they were smart, would have gone through Pash).
So you're saying that there's no chance that it actually did go through Pash.
 

Rice14

New Member
Apr 23, 2008
60
South Florida
Long time lurker because I'm a big Red Sox fan, but I live in So. Florida and am a big Dolphins fan as well. This fiasco is so out of hand,I wanted to add two cents from a fan of the "enemy'.
 
First, I do believe that the Pats ball guys messed with the balls. I know most here don't believe it, but I think it's true. How much did Brady know? I'm on the fence, while I'm sure that he constantly gets on the guys about having the balls a certain way, it's a bit of a leap to say that he definitely wanted the balls secretly deflated under regulations after being checked out. I can buy a narrative where McNally, knowing he'll get an ass kicking if the balls are too hard, just snuck into the bathroom real quick to make them a little softer and did a sloppy job because he was trying to do it quickly.
 
The big question to me though, is "who cares"? In 35 years of watching the NFL, I have never given a second thought to ball pressure, didn't even know there were rules around it or that the refs checked the balls before a game. If the Pats did deflate the balls a bit, it's an extremely minor violation to me. I couldn't see anything more than a $50,000 fine. I would only assess a bigger penalty if they were warned about it or caught more than once deflating balls. To me, it's much ado about nothing, similar to when Lester was caught with something in his glove during the World Series. That was not made into a big deal because while a violation, it was negligible and something that most teams did at one time or another. MLB was smart enough not to make it into anything it wasn't.
 
I wish the NFL were as smart, but it's pretty sad what the league has become. I knew the Pats were screwed when they announced that Wells would conduct the report. During "Bullygate", every guy he spoke to favored Incognito over Martin--every single player, coach, employee. However, that's not what Wells was paid to find out. He was paid to prove a certain point of view and that's what he did. You think he was going to hand the NFL a bill for millions of dollars and tell them "nothing to see here"?
 
The NFL has managed to blow up a minor equipment infraction to a huge story being covered on the news, I know that they say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but I disagree here. I wish the attention could be on actual football and not PSI readings.
 
If there's any "just desserts" that I'm enjoying here, it's not at the Pats or Brady's expense, nor their fans. New England has kicked our ass for 15 years and I can accept that. No, the only comeuppance that I'm enjoying is that Robert Kraft supported that assclown Goodell throughout the Rice mess. Roger Goodell is the worst commissioner in sports, I'm not sure what shocks me more, how bad he is at his job or how much he gets paid to be so bad at it. The NFL should have axed him last summer and I hope that this mess he's created greases the skids for his exit out the door.
 
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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The letter may read as Vincent informing Brady of Goodell's decision, but wasn't it widely reported that Vincent was determining the punishment?
 

Ferm Sheller

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20,786
loshjott said:
 
Notice he waited until Hernandez was convicted before saying anything.
 
 
Add I'd also like to point out that at the time of the alleged comment, Mouton had no reason to believe that Hernandez was inclined to kill anybody.
 
It's not like Mouton thought "Hey, aren't you the guy who's going to kill Odin Lloyd next year?"
 

bluefenderstrat

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Rice14 said:
 
 
If there's any "just desserts" that I'm enjoying here, it's not at the Pats or Brady's expense, nor their fans. New England has kicked our ass for 15 years and I can accept that. No, the only comeuppance that I'm enjoying is that Robert Kraft supported that assclown Goodell throughout the Rice mess. Roger Goodell is the worst commissioner in sports, I'm not sure what shocks me more, how bad he is at his job or how much he gets paid to be so bad at it. The NFL should have axed him last summer and I hope that this mess he's created greases the skids for his exit out the door.
 
 
Kraft is probably thinking along those lines himself.   And while I never thought the Dolphins as an organization were particularly at fault, I certainly bought into the Incognito = bullying, contemptible racist line of thinking.   My eyes have certainly been opened as to the process that got us there.
 

NortheasternPJ

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snowmanny said:
The letter may read as Vincent informing Brady of Goodell's decision, but wasn't it widely reported that Vincent was determining the punishment?
Read up above. It's quoted.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
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Rice14 said:
Long time lurker because I'm a big Red Sox fan, but I live in So. Florida and am a big Dolphins fan as well. This fiasco is so out of hand,I wanted to add two cents from a fan of the "enemy'.
 
First, I do believe that the Pats ball guys messed with the balls. I know most here don't believe it, but I think it's true. How much did Brady know? I'm on the fence, while I'm sure that he constantly gets on the guys about having the balls a certain way, it's a bit of a leap to say that he definitely wanted the balls secretly deflated under regulations after being checked out. I can buy a narrative where McNally, knowing he'll get an ass kicking if the balls are too hard, just snuck into the bathroom real quick to make them a little softer and did a sloppy job because he was trying to do it quickly.
 
The big question to me though, is "who cares"? In 35 years of watching the NFL, I have never given a second thought to ball pressure, didn't even know there were rules around it or that the refs checked the balls before a game. If the Pats did deflate the balls a bit, it's an extremely minor violation to me. I couldn't see anything more than a $50,000 fine. I would only assess a bigger penalty if they were warned about it or caught more than once deflating balls. To me, it's much ado about nothing, similar to when Lester was caught with something in his glove during the World Series. That was not made into a big deal because while a violation, it was negligible and something that most teams did at one time or another. MLB was smart enough not to make it into anything it wasn't.
 
I wish the NFL were as smart, but it's pretty sad what the league has become. I knew the Pats were screwed when they announced that Wells would conduct the report. During "Bullygate", every guy he spoke to favored Incognito over Martin--every single player, coach, employee. However, that's not what Wells was paid to find out. He was paid to prove a certain point of view and that's what he did. You think he was going to hand the NFL a bill for millions of dollars and tell them "nothing to see here"?
 
The NFL has managed to blow up a minor equipment infraction to a huge story being covered on the news, I know that they say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but I disagree here. I wish the attention could be on actual football and not PSI readings.
 
If there's any "just desserts" that I'm enjoying here, it's not at the Pats or Brady's expense, nor their fans. New England has kicked our ass for 15 years and I can accept that. No, the only comeuppance that I'm enjoying is that Robert Kraft supported that assclown Goodell throughout the Rice mess. Roger Goodell is the worst commissioner in sports, I'm not sure what shocks me more, how bad he is at his job or how much he gets paid to be so bad at it. The NFL should have axed him last summer and I hope that this mess he's created greases the skids for his exit out the door.
 
 
Thank you for this. We have several excellent Dolphins regulars here, hope you join them in posting more often.
 

nolasoxfan

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ivanvamp said:
 
The letter from Vincent to Brady:
 
Dear Tom:
The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game. This activity represents a violation of longstanding playing rules developed to promote fairness in the game.
On May 6, independent investigator Ted Wells issued his report regarding the footballs used by the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. Following an extensive investigation, the report established that the footballs used by the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game were inflated at a level that did not satisfy the standard set forth in the NFL's Official Playing Rules and that the condition of the footballs was the result of deliberate actions by employees of the Patriots. The activities of the Patriots' employees were thoroughly documented in the report, including through a series of text messages and telephone communications, as well as evidence of a breach in pre-game protocol. In addition, the conclusions were supported by extensive scientific analysis, as detailed in the report.
With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.
Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game is of paramount importance to everyone in our League, and requires an unshakable commitment to fairness and compliance with the playing rules. Each player, no matter how accomplished and otherwise respected, has an obligation to comply with the rules and must be held accountable for his actions when those rules are violated and the public's confidence in the game is called into question.
Accordingly, pursuant to the authority of the Commissioner under Article 46 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement and your NFL Player Contract, you are suspended without pay for your club's first four games of the 2015 regular season. This suspension will take effect upon the final roster reduction on September 5, 2015; until that time you may participate in all off-season activities, including preseason games.
If you wish to appeal this suspension, you may do so by sending written notice to me within three business days of this letter. If a timely appeal is noticed, a hearing will be scheduled promptly before the Commissioner or his designee at which you may be represented by counsel and present evidence in support of your appeal.
Sincerely,
Troy Vincent, Sr.

 
The first bolded part (The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game.) seems to imply that the discipline was handed down by Goodell himself, but that Vincent was just conveying the message.  If that's so, it wouldn't seem to violate the CBA.  
 
HOWEVER, if that's how they want to play it, Goodell can't also be the one to hear the appeal, can he?  I mean, I thought one reason he could hear the appeal was because it is claimed that Vincent is the one who meted out the penalty.  Can they have it both ways?
 
The second bold part (Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game) sure fits in with that particular section of the CBA, however.
>>seems to imply that the discipline was handed down by Goodell himself, but that Vincent was just conveying the message.  If that's so, it wouldn't seem to violate the CBA.  <<
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I first read the letter.  I remember saying to myself, “self, that Goodell is crazy like a fox!"

>>HOWEVER, if that's how they want to play it, Goodell can't also be the one to hear the appeal, can he?  I mean, I thought one reason he could hear the appeal was because it is claimed that Vincent is the one who meted out the penalty.  Can they have it both ways?<<
And that was my second thought:  he’s looking to have it both ways and/or hedging bets.
 

Doctor G

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Jan 24, 2007
2,331
RGREELEY33 said:
The NFLPA letter to Vincent is remarkable. It is remarkable in that if it truly is a CBA violation to have Vincent hand down the "conduct detrimental" discipline, then it not only gives Brady the clear path to an independent arbriter and a fairly easy road to a vacating of his suspension, but it also gives the Patriots and Kraft a clear path to building support from the owners to oust Goodell. As it stands, owners are not going to want to get involved with supporting Kraft or the Patriots because they want this shit to go away. The one thing they cannot do is continue to give the NFLPA more and more leverage in the upcoming CBA negotiations by continuing to show that the League Office willfully ignores it. This, moreso than his inept PR capabilities, the ridiculous Wells Report, and his repeated mishandling of just about everything will be Goodell's downfall.
doesn't it suggest that the appropriate action is for Goodell to remove Vincent from the discipline  function and   by extension remove himself from the  appeal process and to  take on the punishment process himself.
What's to prevent Goodell from increasing the penalty and subsequently  appointing a stooge to hear the appeal.?
I guess the answer to my question is either self preservation or common sense.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Jun 27, 2012
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Rice14 said:
Long time lurker because I'm a big Red Sox fan, but I live in So. Florida and am a big Dolphins fan as well. This fiasco is so out of hand,I wanted to add two cents from a fan of the "enemy'.
 
First, I do believe that the Pats ball guys messed with the balls. I know most here don't believe it, but I think it's true. How much did Brady know? I'm on the fence, while I'm sure that he constantly gets on the guys about having the balls a certain way, it's a bit of a leap to say that he definitely wanted the balls secretly deflated under regulations after being checked out. I can buy a narrative where McNally, knowing he'll get an ass kicking if the balls are too hard, just snuck into the bathroom real quick to make them a little softer and did a sloppy job because he was trying to do it quickly.
 
The big question to me though, is "who cares"? In 35 years of watching the NFL, I have never given a second thought to ball pressure, didn't even know there were rules around it or that the refs checked the balls before a game. If the Pats did deflate the balls a bit, it's an extremely minor violation to me. I couldn't see anything more than a $50,000 fine. I would only assess a bigger penalty if they were warned about it or caught more than once deflating balls. To me, it's much ado about nothing, similar to when Lester was caught with something in his glove during the World Series. That was not made into a big deal because while a violation, it was negligible and something that most teams did at one time or another. MLB was smart enough not to make it into anything it wasn't.
 
I wish the NFL were as smart, but it's pretty sad what the league has become. I knew the Pats were screwed when they announced that Wells would conduct the report. During "Bullygate", every guy he spoke to favored Incognito over Martin--every single player, coach, employee. However, that's not what Wells was paid to find out. He was paid to prove a certain point of view and that's what he did. You think he was going to hand the NFL a bill for millions of dollars and tell them "nothing to see here"?
 
The NFL has managed to blow up a minor equipment infraction to a huge story being covered on the news, I know that they say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but I disagree here. I wish the attention could be on actual football and not PSI readings.
 
If there's any "just desserts" that I'm enjoying here, it's not at the Pats or Brady's expense, nor their fans. New England has kicked our ass for 15 years and I can accept that. No, the only comeuppance that I'm enjoying is that Robert Kraft supported that assclown Goodell throughout the Rice mess. Roger Goodell is the worst commissioner in sports, I'm not sure what shocks me more, how bad he is at his job or how much he gets paid to be so bad at it. The NFL should have axed him last summer and I hope that this mess he's created greases the skids for his exit out the door.
 
 
Get the hell out of here with your completely reasonable take on the situation.  You clearly did not receive your copy of opposing fans talking points about Deflategate.  Sean Berry will be in touch.
 

Mooch

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According to my buddy in Vegas, the line against the Steelers moved up to Pats -2 this morning.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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Section 1. League Discipline: Notwithstanding anything stated in Article 43:
(a) All disputes involving a fine or suspension imposed upon a player for
conduct on the playing field (other than as described in Subsection (b) below) or involving
action taken against a player by the Commissioner for conduct detrimental to the
integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football, will be processed
exclusively as follows: the Commissioner will promptly send written notice of his action
to the player, with a copy to the NFLPA. Within three (3) business days following such
written notification, the player affected thereby, or the NFLPA with the player’s approval,
may appeal in writing to the Commissioner.
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf
 
Based on the bolded, shouldn't the NFLPA appeal be adressed to Goodel, instead of Vincent?
 

nolasoxfan

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Rudy Pemberton said:
 
Which doesn't square with Goodell's statement after the Wells report came out.
 
"As with other recent matters involving violations of competitive rules, Troy Vincent and his team will consider what steps to take in light of the report, both with respect to possible disciplinary action and to any changes in protocols that are necessary to avoid future incidents of this type. At the same time, we will continue our efforts vigorously to protect the integrity of the game and promote fair play at all times."
Right, but won’t Goodell say something along the lines of “yes, Troy and his team considered what steps to take, but I authorized the disciplinary action.”  Seems that Goodell is parsing words to gain disciplinary power he may believe he has lost in the Rice and AP reversals.
 

Helmet Head

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I have probably wasted 150 hours of my life following this story.  When the story first came out and the past couple weeks it has been a full time job following it.  It has been truly remarkable and sad.   I want to step away from it but I just can't.
 

ivanvamp

captain obvious
Jul 18, 2005
6,104
Helmet Head said:
I have probably wasted 150 hours of my life following this story.  When the story first came out and the past couple weeks it has been a full time job following it.  It has been truly remarkable and sad.   I want to step away from it but I just can't.
 
It really is compelling stuff, no matter how it shakes out.  
 
Look, the cynic in me says this:  the NFL is about entertainment, not just football.  I mean, look at everything the NFL does that isn't actual football.  And this story is CERTAINLY entertaining.  Generating millions upon millions of clicks and views and the entire national discussion is all about this.  
 
In many ways, I bet Goodell and the owners are loving it, because it's just feeding the golden goose.
 

glennhoffmania

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Rice14 said:
 
 
If there's any "just desserts" that I'm enjoying here, it's not at the Pats or Brady's expense, nor their fans. New England has kicked our ass for 15 years and I can accept that. No, the only comeuppance that I'm enjoying is that Robert Kraft supported that assclown Goodell throughout the Rice mess. Roger Goodell is the worst commissioner in sports, I'm not sure what shocks me more, how bad he is at his job or how much he gets paid to be so bad at it. The NFL should have axed him last summer and I hope that this mess he's created greases the skids for his exit out the door.
 
 
This is an interesting part to me as well.  I was pretty surprised that Goodell survived the Rice incident, and it seemed like one of the main reasons was Kraft's support.  Why Roger is picking a fight with Kraft now is odd. 
 

Marciano490

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glennhoffmania said:
 
This is an interesting part to me as well.  I was pretty surprised that Goodell survived the Rice incident, and it seemed like one of the main reasons was Kraft's support.  Why Roger is picking a fight with Kraft now is odd. 
 
So he can show he's a big toughie who doesn't need help or to return favors and can do it all by himself with his daddy's proud name and his shock of red hair.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Maybe it's been mentioned in this thread, but I forgot that the owner's meetings are next week (and Goodell is scheduled to attend).  Wish I could be a fly on the wall. 
 

PseuFighter

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Dec 22, 2003
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The appeal hearing would be in New York at the league office, right? And Brady would attend? Kinda want to see a few thousand pats fans out front that day.
 

cshea

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Is the NFL going to further punish the Pats for the website rebuttal? I'm surprised by a lack of response on their part. Protect the shield and all that garbage.
 

riboflav

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Regarding whether Vincent was the one doling out the discipline, the NFLPA's letter makes clear they are targeting Goodell's public comments as well as Vincent's letter to TB.
 

SMU_Sox

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Jul 20, 2009
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A thought occurred to me today (a rarity, I know).

What if we did a little social experiment? You have three surveys administered to various sports bars. In each survey you list a team name and various infractions and rule violations. One team per survey. In the first survey (administered in one bar) you name the Patriots. In another you name the Patriots and say something along the lines of assuming spygate never happened. In the third survey you pick a team from an out of conference out of state team. You ask people to pick a punishment and give them a few examples of guidelines.

In Dallas I would pick the Chargers as a neutral third team. I'm curious how different the results would be. I think we all know what would happen but part of me wishes the obvious would permeate a bit more in the news cycle. People hate the Pats. They would punish them more for being the Pats. Maybe people aren't being objective. If we could do this is five or six cities it would make for a decent write-up.

I want to know specifically how much the general public has an anti-Pats bias. It would be interesting to me to see how much higher the fines, how many more draft picks docked and what round, and how much longer the suspensions would be just because it is the Pats.

Edit: on mobile - sorry for the shitty grammar.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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Feb 22, 2004
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ivanvamp said:
 
It really is compelling stuff, no matter how it shakes out.  
 
Look, the cynic in me says this:  the NFL is about entertainment, not just football.  I mean, look at everything the NFL does that isn't actual football.  And this story is CERTAINLY entertaining.  Generating millions upon millions of clicks and views and the entire national discussion is all about this.  
 
In many ways, I bet Goodell and the owners are loving it, because it's just feeding the golden goose.
Great short term press. Awful in the long term? These public slap fights about the integrity of competition on the field aren't good for anyone involved. If Brady does miss time and the playoff picture is affected be sure people will talk about it.