#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Kenny F'ing Powers

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Myt1 said:
Dude, you're like 0-Life on this stuff. At this point, what's the utility to keeping it up, for yourself or the board?
 
Not to be a dick, Theo, but can you actually link to a post where your prediction proved accurate? I actually can't think of one.
 

RIFan

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Ferm Sheller said:
McNally was a 32 year on field veteran of the Patriots, which means he started working for the Pats before the Sullivan/Michael Jackson debacle and which means that he's overlapped with Brady for Brady's entire NFL career.  I highly doubt Brady was dumb enough to say "Who's McNally?  Never heard of him at all."
 
I bet the question was along the lines of "are you familiar with McNally's 'behind the scenes' duties with respect to working with the refs to have the balls approved" and Brady said something like, "No, I don't know the extent to which McNally is involved.  I never witness it, I really have no reason to know, he's never brought it up and I don't even know him particularly well.  I see him for a few hours a day 10 days a year." 
 
"So, you're saying you don't know McNally?"
 
"No, not well."
Tedy Bruschi said on ESPN that when McNally's name came up he didn't know who that was. Someone then told him that McNally was "Bird". He only knew him as Bird so McNally didn't register as someone he knew. Unless Bruschi is part of the grand conspiracy to cover Tom's ass, it's plausible that Brady also only knew him as Bird.
 

genoasalami

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Bleedred said:
This is the problem with Patriot detractors.  They cannot even get the facts of the report correct (not that I blame them, given all the circular logic).   For genoasalami:  "It was more probable than not that Tom Brady was generally aware that the equipment guys deflated the footballs below the required psi."  There's no finding that he approved anything.   Second, no one has found any causal connection between the reduced psi (below 12.5) and some asserted competitive edge, and they were not "caught" doing anything.
I'm not a detractor at all...I read the report and my take was that the balls were more than likely deflated. The penalties suck. If indeed this was nothing more than a witch hunt then the Pats should close shop and Brady should retire. You would think at the very least that Kraft could pay for his own independent investigation to prove to the league that they got it all wrong. Brady could supply all of his text messages in question. That would shut up the NFL in a second.
 

Ferm Sheller

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RIFan said:
Tedy Bruschi said on ESPN that when McNally's name came up he didn't know who that was. Someone then told him that McNally was "Bird". He only knew him as Bird so McNally didn't register as someone he knew. Unless Bruschi is part of the grand conspiracy to cover Tom's ass, it's plausible that Brady also only knew him as Bird.
 
Interesting, thanks.  That makes more sense than does my hypothetical.
 

Stitch01

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Not going to lie, thought that whole thing was a Wire reference.  Lol Wells Report.
 
Wasnt just Theo's anonymous sources either.  Other than the poster who nailed the Wells Report was coming out pretty much every piece of anonymous information turned out to be horseshit.
 

TheoShmeo

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Dude...Myt1...don't read, discount, ignore, chuckle along...your call. 
 
My take-away, and it's just mine and doesn't have to be yours, is that the NFL offices are full of talkers and that they tell their friends things that are being considered before a final decision is reached.  In the 8 game context, I think that was being discussed or it was done purposefully to make the 4 games seem more palatable or for some other dubious and devious purpose.
 

Harry Hooper

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DegenerateSoxFan said:
I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would pay good money to watch a videotaped depo of Roger. I agree with the recommendation upthread as to choice of counsel, but frankly, any halfway competent lawyer who does his homework on this should be able to make the blood flow freely for days. C'mon, how many of my fellow lawyers here are fantasizing about raking him over the coals for every stupid, dishonest and arbitrary thing he's done? I know I am. Just thinking about the potential exhibit list makes me warm and tingly inside.
 
 
 
Absolutely, Roger almost melted down during his friendly interview with Norah O'Donnell on CBS that Kraft set up over the Ray Rice fiasco. He's so used to bullying everyone else that he has trouble handling any heat.
 

garzooma

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ivanvamp said:
 
2.  Hire an "independent" (haha) investigator to go through the same exact material the Wells people got and issue a report - one that spins in favor of the Patriots.  This shouldn't really be too hard to do.  I bet one of us here could take three weeks and do a very, very credible job on that.  
 
 
The should hire the labs that debunked the Exponent studies for the tobacco companies claimin that second-hand smoke doesn't affect health.  Just to underline the kind of science the NFL is using.
 

Bleedred

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genoasalami said:
I'm not a detractor at all...I read the report and my take was that the balls were more than likely deflated. The penalties suck. If indeed this was nothing more than a witch hunt then the Pats should close shop and Brady should retire. You would think at the very least that Kraft could pay for his own independent investigation to prove to the league that they got it all wrong. Brady could supply all of his text messages in question. That would shut up the NFL in a second.
I'm not piling on you genoasalami, but if you read the report, then you should do this board the courtesy of actually characterizing its results accurately.  Your initial post did not, so I posted what i thought were the actual findings.  
 

Myt1

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I don't doubt that the NFL is full of talkers who tell their friends things while they're still half-cocked before a decision is reached.

I just don't know why that fact leads us to conclude such different things about the usefulness of what the game of telephone has to say.

Edit: And I'm not trying to mess with you. I've been confused about this for a while. No need to bring the thread off into a tangent, just wanted to make my intent clear.
 

JimBoSox9

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
 
Not to be a dick, Theo, but can you actually link to a post where your prediction proved accurate? I actually can't think of one.
I'm not sure most members could meet this challange, sourced or no
 

ivanvamp

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RIFan said:
Tedy Bruschi said on ESPN that when McNally's name came up he didn't know who that was. Someone then told him that McNally was "Bird". He only knew him as Bird so McNally didn't register as someone he knew. Unless Bruschi is part of the grand conspiracy to cover Tom's ass, it's plausible that Brady also only knew him as Bird.
 
It goes back to something I said a few days ago (I didn't invent this idea, of course).  Everything - and I mean, EVERYTHING - is explainable according to whichever narrative you choose.  
 
If you start with the assumption (the narrative, as it were) that the Patriots are cheaters and probably did (and do) something wrong, then everything can easily be seen in light of that.  The texts, Brady's comments about McNally, the trip to the bathroom, the ball measurements, etc.  All of it fits the "Patriots cheated" narrative and I can see how anyone who starts with that assumption can see the nefarious nature of all these things.
 
But if you start with the assumption that the Patriots didn't do anything wrong here, then everything can easily be seen in light of that.  The pseudo-science of the Wells report, the faulty memory of Walt Anderson, the 16psi from the Jets' game, the texts (which become humorous instead of nefarious), even Brady's not knowing McNally (as you describe above) - all of that fits the "Patriots didn't do anything wrong here" narrative.
 
Unfortunately, there is nothing definitive on either side.  I don't see how it's "more probable than not" that the Patriots did something wrong.  I think it's quite possible either way.  Clearly, if this was a court case, there's zero chance Brady or the Pats would have been found guilty.  But it's not a court case.  It's a tyrannical commissioner on a witch hunt, feeding public opinion, and in turn making decisions based on that public opinion.
 

Marciano490

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JimBoSox9 said:
I'm not sure most members could meet this challange, sourced or no
 
That's not the game though.  There's a difference between saying, "I predict X" and "A connected source I trust told me X."  Anyways, no need to get cranky and turn on each other. 
 

GBrushTWood

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Lots of good suggestions here on what Kraft should do. Equally as important is what Kraft should not do. 
 
Anything short of a full blown public & private effort to contest Goodell loses local fans for Kraft. That means any public statements implictly or explicitly accepting the punishments as legitimate. The customers are watching closely right now.
 
I would hope an all hands planning session ocurred last evening/will occur today with all relevant stakeholders (B. Kraft, J. Kraft, Belichick, Brady, Yee, Patriots PR guy, legal counsel, maybe even NFLPA). 
 

lexrageorge

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TheoShmeo said:
Tee hee, Stich01 took another shot at my sources.  Boo hoo!  Despite your continual jabs, I will keep passing on what I hear.  I know from posts and PMs that enough people here appreciate knowing what's being said by those claiming knowledge, even if it proves inaccurate.
 
Parenthetically, the thing yesterday about 8 games was interesting.  Bleedred got it from two people and I got it from a very connected entertainment lawyer who knows people at 345 Park.  Were they putting that out there as yet another sting?  Just strange. 
 
And along those lines, a different person with a connection to both the NFL and the Krafts told me that -- as has been reported and speculated on by many, and as Vincent essentially said -- that the Pats were being punished in large measure because they are viewed as bad citizens.  In particular, the Hernandez thing and their failure to intercede before he was arrested weighed heavily in all of this.  Take it FWIW, and it might be nothing or something or something in between.
 
PS: Eddie Jurak makes an interesting point about the comments effectively rallying the Pats.  I wouldn't go as far as saying they would have lost the SB without their bravado, but I agree that it was probably just what the players needed to hear.  Then again, if Pete Carroll runs the ball there at the end...
I can see how once the league decided a suspension was in order, sources would hear the possibility of "8 games".  I'm sure there were several discussions about the length of Brady's suspension, and I'm sure the Jets fans in the league office wanted the 8 games.
 
As to the Pats handling the Hernandez situation:  either your source is a complete idiot, is trolling you, or the league office is in worse shape than thought. That's a far dumber argument than Spygate, especially as it's already been shown that the Pats could do nothing that would have stopped Hernandez in the first place. 
 

genoasalami

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Bleedred said:
I'm not piling on you genoasalami, but if you read the report, then you should do this board the courtesy of actually characterizing its results accurately.  Your initial post did not, so I posted what i thought were the actual findings.  
If the Pats and Brady are convinced that the balls fell under approved PSI due to normal atmospherics then they should do their own independent investigation and provide the results to the NFL. There were concerns raised about text messages between Brady and McNally after the AFC championship game. Let's see the texts. I would think those texts would go a long way to proving innocence/guilt. 
 

LuckyBen

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genoasalami said:
If the Pats and Brady are convinced that the balls fell under approved PSI due to normal atmospherics then they should do their own independent investigation and provide the results to the NFL. There were concerns raised about text messages between Brady and McNally after the AFC championship game. Let's see the texts. I would think those texts would go a long way to proving innocence/guilt. 
 
Oh Rly?
 

sonofgodcf

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Bleedred said:
Page 23 of the Wells Report:  "In addition, the Patriots provided substantial cooperation throughout the investigation, making personnel, documents and other information available to us upon request...
 
I wonder if the Patriots organization was being strung along here - Wells & team act as if everything the Pats provide is interesting/relevant and things they are pursuing, keeping the Pats happy to believe the investigation is truly independent.  When the report was released, that's when Kraft realizes they've been duped and it really was a hit job all along.  It wouldn't surprise me if that Sharks of Vegas stuff was coming from the Pats, would make sense on why they were so spectacularly wrong.
 

tims4wins

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genoasalami said:
If the Pats and Brady are convinced that the balls fell under approved PSI due to normal atmospherics then they should do their own independent investigation and provide the results to the NFL. There were concerns raised about text messages between Brady and McNally after the AFC championship game. Let's see the texts. I would think those texts would go a long way to proving innocence/guilt. 
 
In addition to Oh Rly?, Brady's texts were included in the Wells report. Guess someone didn't read.
 
Can't believe I am feeding the troll.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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soxhop411 said:
NFLN is unwatchable right now
I'm not either but I'm assuming its a Hodge podge of anyone who has ever lost a big game to the Pats. Faulk must be rubbing one out on national tv
 

cromulence

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tims4wins said:
 
In addition to Oh Rly?, Brady's texts were included in the Wells report. Guess someone didn't read.
 
Can't believe I am feeding the troll.
 
So anyone who doesn't think that the poor Patriots did absolutely nothing wrong and that this is a big ugly unfair witch hunt by the Evil Roger Goodell is a troll? Just checking. There's a reason this thread is a god-awful echo chamber, and it's shit like this.
 

TheWizard

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Bleedred said:
One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is Jonathan Kraft.   Jonathan is a vindictive prick.  A real mother fucker who has to be throwing shit around his home.  Bob runs the show, but I'm sure Jonathan is absolutely rip shit about this.
 
This is spot on.  I worked with a guy - who set up a lot of the technology infrastructure for the Patriots in the early 2000s.  The statement above mirrors what he told me about Jonathan, he's the one guy you don't want to mess with.
 

dcmissle

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Marciano490 said:
Front and center on espn.com.
He is a NYC guy.

Please cease the fan-on-fan sparring here. It's beneath the stature of the participants.
 

tims4wins

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cromulence said:
 
So anyone who doesn't think that the poor Patriots did absolutely nothing wrong and that this is a big ugly unfair witch hunt by the Evil Roger Goodell is a troll? Just checking. There's a reason this thread is a god-awful echo chamber, and it's shit like this. Come rip me apart, everybody!
 
People who don't pay attention to the report and then make remarks like genoasalami did aren't contributing anything - completely uninformed.
 
Edit: plenty of Pats fans think they may have done something wrong, but at least they know what is contained in the report
 

Ed Hillel

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soxhop411 said:
NFLN is unwatchable right now
 
Hum, the network run and operated by the NFL that employs a circle of Patriot-haters (and some Patriots, as well, to be fair) isn't painting the Patriots in a positive light?
 

Remagellan

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
 
Well, they said they were using that as a factor, but punishments haven't been stacking for other teams in similar situations, right? Michael Vick was in the Falcons organization when the dog fighting shit happened 8 years ago. Despite the Falcons not having any responsibility (much like the Patriots in this case, as acknowledged in the Wells report), their punishment for pumping in crowd noise didn't factor in Vick's discretion's. 
 
The Washington Redskins have had 10 players suspended since 2011. Where is the comedown on the organization for harboring these players? The Seahawks have had 9, the Colts 6. Where is the outrage that these teams - despite not having any direct knowledge of players breaking the rules, just like the Wells report has decided the Patriots had no knowledge of any wrongdoing - are harboring groups of cheaters? How about the Ravens organization? They've created more ill will for the shield than any other team by employing some of the most villainous players in the league. Where is the reprimand for consistently affecting the integrity of the game?
 
I'm not advocating for the teams to be penalized, of course. The path RG has chosen to go down can absolutely lead to this slippery slope. "Tom Brady may have done something bad. The Patriots didn't know. Both will be penalized." Going forward, every team should be held accountable for every indiscretion by their players, otherwise the standard is not up kept.
 
 
Look the formula is simple: as far as the NFL is concerned, if you shrink your balls, you skate; if you shrink their balls, they crucify you. 
 

ShaneTrot

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I am kind of at the point unless there is some miracle evidence that can vindicate the Pats, they are fucked. I know Brady has to challenge the suspension to shorten it but really what else can they do?
 

LuckyBen

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cromulence said:
 
So anyone who doesn't think that the poor Patriots did absolutely nothing wrong and that this is a big ugly unfair witch hunt by the Evil Roger Goodell is a troll? Just checking. There's a reason this thread is a god-awful echo chamber, and it's shit like this.
 
Or maybe its the fact that he's just plain wrong in so many of the things he is referencing. It's god awful shit like that that ruin these threads.
 

TheoShmeo

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As to Hernandez, Lex, it was conveyed to me as being a meaningful part of a pattern of the Pats being "bad citizens."  How it was weighted, I don't know, but he said that there are people in the NFL office who are really pissed about how the Pats handled Hernandez and thought that their habit of doing the wrong thing in every instance needed to be punished.
 
My source is definitely not trolling me.  He's a close friend and a former client (semi retired now) and literally has no reason to screw with me. 
 

Ed Hillel

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dcmissle said:
He is a NYC guy.

Please cease the fan-on-fan sparring here. It's beneath the stature of the participants.
 
Agreed on both points. O' Connor has been killing the Patriots since forever, so this is unsurprising. If Brady is factually innocent, Ian O'Connor is towing the line right now, though.
 

Tito's Pullover

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genoasalami said:
If the Pats and Brady are convinced that the balls fell under approved PSI due to normal atmospherics then they should do their own independent investigation and provide the results to the NFL.
They fucking did.  In under a week's time.  Whilst preparing for the super bowl.
 

DJnVa

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That Schefter tweet about the Pats not going quietly into the night has me giddy.
 
I have no idea if the penalties will be lessened or whatever, but it's time Goodell and his nest of imbeciles gets a flame thrower taken to it.
 

NavaHo

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My (completely irrational, I'm sure) worry about the "8 games" we heard about which turned into 4 games is this hypothetical which might have played out in the Commissioner's Office yesterday.
 
Vincent: "What do we want to get Brady for?"
 
Goodell: "Four games."
 
TV: "So we suspend for eight and let a neutral arbitrator knock it down?"
 
(eight games leaks)
 
RG: "We could do that, or...fuck it, I'm handling the appeal. Four games."
 
I don't want this going to court. Hopefully good sense will prevail and Goodell takes his sheriff hat off now that he's done his damage.
 

PseuFighter

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I don't have a ton to add until the next phase (the appeal? announcement of the appeal?), but I have to admit that when I woke up this morning, I couldn't believe that this (and yesterday) was actually real. This whole thing continues to be so absurd to me.
 

Bleedred

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Predictions:
The Pats are fucked as to losing those picks.  Getting them back is not happening.
The Pats are fucked as to the fine.  They are not eliminating it (conceivably reduced, but highly unlikely)
Tom Brady:  Gets his suspension reduced to 0 games.
An "airing" of the deficiencies of the Wells Report and the NFL Front Office potential misconduct/involvement in a sting.  This only happens if Kraft is willing to go full blown balls in on challenging the NFL and I simply don't believe Kraft is willing.  Thus, our desire to have the Report, the NFL front office exposed to the disinfecting light of legal discovery is, sadly, a fantasy.   
 

Stitch01

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cromulence said:
 
So anyone who doesn't think that the poor Patriots did absolutely nothing wrong and that this is a big ugly unfair witch hunt by the Evil Roger Goodell is a troll? Just checking. There's a reason this thread is a god-awful echo chamber, and it's shit like this.
No, but we have other context for that poster and he's posting factually incorrect statements
 

ObstructedView

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Regarding the frustrating local coverage: There's a certain type of local writer/broadcaster who delights in playing the role of the sober, rational observer in contrast to the irrational yahoos who supposedly make up the rabid fan base. You hear this a lot on the radio, and there are a few columnists who also do it frequently (it's an old CHB staple). It's sort of a condescending contrarianism which puts the writer/host on a higher moral plane while generating clicks and ratings through the trolling.
 

JimBoSox9

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Not for nothing, but the opening night line has dropped from NE -7 to pick 'em.  If you think the Brady suspension can't survive a neutral test, and will get one, there's money to be made.
 

Harry Hooper

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sonofgodcf said:
 
I wonder if the Patriots organization was being strung along here - Wells & team act as if everything the Pats provide is interesting/relevant and things they are pursuing, keeping the Pats happy to believe the investigation is truly independent.  When the report was released, that's when Kraft realizes they've been duped and it really was a hit job all along.  It wouldn't surprise me if that Sharks of Vegas stuff was coming from the Pats, would make sense on why they were so spectacularly wrong.
 
In addition to duping the Pats, it's a great way to find out everything that the team knows about the NFL flunkies.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Bleedred said:
Predictions:
The Pats are fucked as to losing those picks.  Getting them back is not happening.
The Pats are fucked as to the fine.  They are not eliminating it (conceivably reduced, but highly unlikely)
Tom Brady:  Gets his suspension reduced to 0 games.
An "airing" of the deficiencies of the Wells Report and the NFL Front Office potential misconduct/involvement in a sting.  This only happens if Kraft is willing to go full blown balls in on challenging the NFL and I simply don't believe Kraft is willing.  Thus, our desire to have the Report, the NFL front office exposed to the disinfecting light of legal discovery is, sadly, a fantasy.   
 
Agree across the board.  Sadly.
 
I'll add that in two years, after a few more fuckups and after enough time has passed that the action won't be directly linked to this fiasco in particular, Goodell will be removed or "voluntarily" step down to pursue other opportunities.  To keep up appearances, the owners will not trash him on the way out but talk about his brilliant stewardship and how its simply time for new leadership. 
 

Harry Hooper

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TheWizard said:
 
This is spot on.  I worked with a guy - who set up a lot of the technology infrastructure for the Patriots in the early 2000s.  The statement above mirrors what he told me about Jonathan, he's the one guy you don't want to mess with.
 
 
Rumor is he's been watching this clip over and over today:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47ptIuV4NLo
 

Gambler7

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TheWizard said:
 
This is spot on.  I worked with a guy - who set up a lot of the technology infrastructure for the Patriots in the early 2000s.  The statement above mirrors what he told me about Jonathan, he's the one guy you don't want to mess with.
 
Interestingly, Greg Bedard tweeted this:









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Greg A. Bedard retweeted Adam Schefter
Will the Patriots go Full Jonathan? Come on, let him loose