It's a fan perception issue. The integrity of the fan experience of the game is compromised if they believe one team is cheating. It only gets worse if said team is dominating the league, and it gets much worse if the league doesn't put an end to such rampant cheating. In the end, the NFL must do something to assuage angry fans. The Pats are the patsies, the fans are suckers, and the NFL wins.Gorton Fisherman said:
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
wibi said:
I just don't see how using this clause to establish "general awareness" as a major transgression could possibly work. For one thing, it would establish a precedent that any player who is aware of a rules infraction, however minor, that they do not report or otherwise take action to stop is now guilty of "conduct detrimental to the integrity of the league". The scope of this would instantly include dozens if not hundreds of players around the league, and would mandate (as mentioned above) reportage of things like teammate's known PED use, uniform violations, and all kinds of other trivial crap. Obviously this is absurd, and is never going to happen.
I don't know, but I think this case is different, because in this case there is a specific rule on the books regarding the violation that Brady was allegedly aware of. If you used the personal conduct clause to punish Brady, you would end up with the following (clearly absurd) situation:
Actually tampering with footballs = minor infraction, base $25K fine.
Just being aware others are tampering with footballs = Conduct Detrimental to the Integrity of the League, multi-game suspension (presumably)
I mean, this can't happen right? Just think of all the insane implications. Let's say Brady is watching two employees in the locker room illegally deflating balls from behind a one-way mirror or something. At this point he is "aware" of the infraction, and his transgression is considered "conduct detrimental to the league". Then, he walks over to the employees and says "Hey guys! Let me give you a hand with that!", picks up a needle and starts deflating balls himself. Now he is participating in the actual tampering, which there is a specific rule for, and therefore won't fall back to the personal conduct umbrella clause. By assisting with the tampering Brady's trangression is now effectively "reduced" to minor infraction, nominal $25K fine. Craziness!
Look, I'm not saying that it's outside the realm of possibility for Goodell to try to use the personal conduct policy to try to hammer Brady, whether for just the "general awareness" aspect, or more generally. Goodell is a mean, dumb, spineless tool who is a slave to public opinion, and is capable of nearly anything. I'm just saying that if he goes this way, he is going to get utterly destroyed on appeal. Brady is going to have the full power of the NFLPA at his back, and I can see their lawyers easily ripping this shreds without breaking much of a sweat.
Everyone should stop with the suggestion that anyone is going to sue anyone for defamation. I'm not picking on anyone who asks the Q or suggests they heard it somewhere, but as noted above, multiple times, the standard for winning a claim of defamation is absurdly high. It's not going to happen.....or if it does, whoever brings the claim is going to lose....and lose huge.
You have to figure that Goodell and his goonies are deep in meetings with lawyers, arbitrators, defamation experts, etc.. They are likely not addressing punishment as much as the process that will follow and the different avenues Brady will have should they do something that he won't accept without a fight. They may actually like being on the front page for the coverage deflategate has generated, but they don't want to be on the front page when an arbitrator decides the science in the report doesn't hold up and throws out the suspension.
Not saying what the result of a hearing will be down the road, but you can be the NFL is looking at all angles of the report in an attempt to determine what is strong enough to use and rely on for punishment that will stick. Goodell wants this to end eventually and he doesn't want the final stage to be at the expense of the NFL.
Not saying what the result of a hearing will be down the road, but you can be the NFL is looking at all angles of the report in an attempt to determine what is strong enough to use and rely on for punishment that will stick. Goodell wants this to end eventually and he doesn't want the final stage to be at the expense of the NFL.
"There are two sides to every story. So far, you've only heard one side. In the coming days, you'll be hearing more about my side of the story. The conclusions in the Wells Report are wrong, and when the truth comes out, you'll see that I broke no rules and I had no involvement in any improper activity."
S'ok, you can pick on me if you really want toBleedred said:
.I won't speak for everyone making the suggestion, but I don't like the idea of some Manhattan lawyers in $10K suits putting out a prosecution brief disguised as a balanced report getting some low-level peons fired WITHOUT THEM GETTING A DAY IN COURT. McNally knows what he did in that bathroom. If he didn't deflate any footballs, I'd like to think that he'd have some recourse.
wibi said:
Wait is it this simple? Hell suspend him for the 3rd preseason game and fine him 25k.Hoya81 said:
What about a four game suspension that is the pre-season? That seems most reasonable. Don't have definitive proof but enough evidence to hurt Brady in some fashion. Missing the pre-season would definitely be damaging to Brady/NE but not cost him millions nor directly impact a meaningful game which seems like a punishment that fits the possible crime.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that there are multiple support staff at PW who do Ted Wells' bidding but receive instructions from associates, other support staff, etc. Ted knows that these people exist, sees them in the elevator, but would not do better than 60% matching their names to their faces and functions. Would be say that he "knows" who these people are?
Edit: The catch is that Brady's representatives likely don't have access to his prior statement; they would have to rely on Brady's recollection of what he said. There's a risk of stepping in it if Brady recalls saying something ambiguous, when in fact he said unequivocally that he didn't
Hard to believe they don't have a transcript. Inconceivable, in fact.
Hard to believe they don't have a transcript. Inconceivable, in fact.
Yeah, no one is suing for defamation. The Pats response to all this, ultimately, will be continuing to beat the other 31 clearly inferior franchises on a regular basis.Bleedred said:
Preseason suspension would never happen but would be the ultimate ending to this farce. Maybe along with missing preseason games they could make Tommy stay up a half hour past his regimented bedtime for a week to really bring down to he hammer.
Brady gets eight games. Gostkowski gets two. I get to watch Kessler go to town on the NFL without fetters. I'm almost looking forward to it.
If I were Brady & the agent, I would also be contacting all the high profile players & agents i'm friends with across the league, e.g., Payton, Brees, Luck, Rogers and tell them that if they can do it to Brady they can do it to any poster boy at any time & totally arbitrarily.
The Patriots (Kraft, Belichick) should have already been doing this at the coaches / organizational / owners level, because any team that aspires to what the Patriots have accomplished for the past 15 years, which is not a small number of teams, should fear that the league doesn't want anyone to become too successful.
This battle will play out in the media so all the people on Brady's side need to rally support from every possible corner.
That also means leaking all sorts of things to the media like the league has been doing.
The Patriots (Kraft, Belichick) should have already been doing this at the coaches / organizational / owners level, because any team that aspires to what the Patriots have accomplished for the past 15 years, which is not a small number of teams, should fear that the league doesn't want anyone to become too successful.
This battle will play out in the media so all the people on Brady's side need to rally support from every possible corner.
That also means leaking all sorts of things to the media like the league has been doing.
Otis Foster said:
Yeah, not at all credible. But in keeping with the grand farce that the "independent investigation" turned out to be. I am hoping that Goodell is stupid enough to shoot for a suspension because the arbitration hearing and ensuing ruling will provide us with comedy fodder for the rest of the calendar year.
Not too familiar with the appeals process, but if the NFLPA really has a high chance of winning on appeal & Goodell knows this, then he probably wants to do the maximum possible punishment that would be acceptable to all parties without appeal. That's Brady & the Pats' best chance of having it be just monetary rather than games & picks.
Or maybe his calculation will be that he drops the hammer to make himself look good on the front page, knowing that when it's overturned the story (and how much of an abortion the Wells report was) will be buried on the back page.
The fact that no one from the league has been disciplined tell me that Goodell fully supported the sting & the leaks, so we should expect another similar story when we're marching towards the super bowl next year.
Or maybe his calculation will be that he drops the hammer to make himself look good on the front page, knowing that when it's overturned the story (and how much of an abortion the Wells report was) will be buried on the back page.
The fact that no one from the league has been disciplined tell me that Goodell fully supported the sting & the leaks, so we should expect another similar story when we're marching towards the super bowl next year.
What exactly are you objecting to here? I haven't had a chance to look at this section of the report yet, but this sounds like more or less how I would approach the problem. The assumption of the uniform initial mean of 12.5 is the most generous possible from the Patriots' point of view, so it makes good overall sense to take it as the null hypothesis. I also don't see why it is problematic to assume a normal distribution of halftime measurements.tedseye said:
Because there is no margin for error. It is impossible for the readings of 12 different balls to be measured at 12.5 +/- 0.0 psi. It is literally impossible to obtain data like that. The gauges are not that precise, and they were operated by a ref who couldn't give two shits.Bellhorn said:
The Pats balls at halftime had a standard deviation of 0.4. That means that 68.2% of the balls would measure within 0.4 psi. 95% of balls would measure within 0.8 psi. That's a pretty big spread.
In the wells report, the Patriots balls were deemed to have been 0.2 -0.3 psi below what they were expected to be based on some poorly described simulation Exponent ran. This 0.2-0.3 difference is based on a mean value of the Pats balls being 25.0 before the game. But what if the mean was actually 24.8? Or 24.7? That is a plausible possibility. It's also plausible the mean was 25.2 or 25.3. But we don't know that either. The end result is a high level of uncertainty.
These are all points I believe he should make, in addition to carefully using the Wells Report against the league where there are inconsistencies and perhaps scientific errors. I am sure Yee is looking into all of this right now, and I'd have started with the Jets game issues of 16 psi. The point that he alerted the staff and suggested reminding the officials of the 12.5 psi acceptable level is right there in the report. Furthermore, although the report claims there was no sting, I am not sure this claim is backed by the chronological description of the events leading up to (and including) the game. At that point, the "integrity of the game" has to be brought into question from a league standpoint, not just Brady's. Why would the NFL allow the first half of the AFC Championship Game be played with questionable football pressure? And, with the official alerted of this issue, how could the process allow for the balls to be used after they were missing without going to the backup balls? Either ball pressure was not as much of an issue as is being suggested, or the league apparently was more interested in catching the Patriots than they were about ensuring a level playing field for the game leading up to the Super Bowl. Unless I've misunderstood or possibly misremembered the Wells Report, the league and officials have to answer this question. I'd mentioned something along these lines in the other thread, but it probably should be here as these are all points Brady and his team can make; or at least questions that should be posed.ivanvamp said:
I suppose all bets are off if there is definitely proof that he ordered the balls to be deflated below the 12.5 psi level. But if not, then I cannot see him going quietly with any disciplinary action. Brady is ultra competitive and I am sure will not allow his career reputation to be tarnished if he has a solid defense.
I also advise to remain silent until after any disciplinary action is announced.
This is exactly right. One of the Colts balls measured 12.95 psi. That's not much of a drop from 13.0. Was this ball even taken outside? According to the Wells report simulation, the Colts balls should have been between 12.30 and 12.38. I don't see any concern whatsoever for the Colts outliers. In fact, they rationalize away the variability induced by the 12.95 reading.tedseye said:
I've reached peace with this bullshit.
It's capital B bullshit, and we have to eat it, and that's the way it is. It's not fair, it makes no sense, but such is life.
Over the years, it will become more and more obvious how stupid this whole thing is. Take heart.
It's capital B bullshit, and we have to eat it, and that's the way it is. It's not fair, it makes no sense, but such is life.
Over the years, it will become more and more obvious how stupid this whole thing is. Take heart.
I just drove home listening to CBS sports national broadcast. The country really, really hates us, almost to an irrational level.
Read the Jason Whitlock Deadspin piece and realize most prominent media people and normal people are idiots. Do not let it raise your blood pressure. Use it as a calming measure.Luis Taint said:
Michael McCann, the law professor that SI.com uses for any kind of legal issue, has already done this at UNH. They were talking about it on WEEI yesterday, so I don't have a link, but he has planned for fall semester.dcmissle said:
TheoShmeo said:
Agree that this is a key point that Brady should reinforce early and often. I don't think anyone on any side of this case has disputed the fundamental notion that "Brady likes his balls at 12.5 PSI". Brady himself has stated this preference repeatedly and consistently. And I don't think Wells even attempts to dispute this. Nothing in the text messages exchanged among McNally/Jastremski/Brady (characterized as "overwhelming circumstantial evidence" by numbskulls like Jon Wallach) indicates that he wanted a PSI level less than 12.5. In fact, the Wells report contains only evidence that would corroborate Brady's 12.5 preference, including:
- Brady's desire to give officials a copy of the rule specifying the legal range of 12.5-13.5
- Brady expressing his preference for 12.5 to McNally/Jastremsky
- Walt Anderson (whose testimony Wells generally considers to be unassailable) recalling McNally reminding him and other officials pre-game that "Tom likes them at 12.5". Anderson recalls this same reminder being given not just before the AFC Championship Game, but also during prior Pats games he had officiated.
I hope going forward the officials "gauge" each ball before each game. Maybe again at the half and before OT if need be. Top them up etc as needed. The Tostitos Halftime Ball Squeeze" would get crazy ratings no? After all of this shitshow they have to continue to show that this is a huge "integrity of the game" deal by taking meticulous NIST traceable measurements, chain of custody, locked ball bags etc etc etc. How do they not?
More Probable Than Not Colts Played With Under Inflated Footballs
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/wells-report-more-probable-than-not-colts-played-with-under-inflated-footballs/33495/
Here's the other story uncovered in the Wells Report you've NOT been told: 3 of 4 Colts footballs checked at halftime weighed in under 12.5 PSI by one of the two officials measuring them. Then, they suddenly stopped checking. The other 8 Colts footballs simply, and conveniently, went unchecked.
Here's the Wells Report table showing the PSI of the 4 Colts footballs weighed at halftime as it appears on Page 8. Blakeman and Prioleau are the two NFL officials who measured the balls.
Why did NFL officials check only four Colts footballs instead of all 12?
"Only four Colts balls were tested because the officials were running out of time before the start of the second half," reads the Wells Report on Page 7.
Hmmm ... pretty interesting. A Patriots ballboy can run into a bathroom and quickly deflate to exact specifications 12 gameballs in 1 minute, 40 seconds. But NFL officials didn't have time to check eight Colts footballs in 15 minutes of halftime, in an operation intended to uphold the integrity of the league.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/wells-report-more-probable-than-not-colts-played-with-under-inflated-footballs/33495/
Here's the other story uncovered in the Wells Report you've NOT been told: 3 of 4 Colts footballs checked at halftime weighed in under 12.5 PSI by one of the two officials measuring them. Then, they suddenly stopped checking. The other 8 Colts footballs simply, and conveniently, went unchecked.
Here's the Wells Report table showing the PSI of the 4 Colts footballs weighed at halftime as it appears on Page 8. Blakeman and Prioleau are the two NFL officials who measured the balls.
Why did NFL officials check only four Colts footballs instead of all 12?
"Only four Colts balls were tested because the officials were running out of time before the start of the second half," reads the Wells Report on Page 7.
Hmmm ... pretty interesting. A Patriots ballboy can run into a bathroom and quickly deflate to exact specifications 12 gameballs in 1 minute, 40 seconds. But NFL officials didn't have time to check eight Colts footballs in 15 minutes of halftime, in an operation intended to uphold the integrity of the league.
Great stuff from Mike Reiss:
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4781318/quick-hit-thoughts-around-the-patriots
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4781318/quick-hit-thoughts-around-the-patriots
What about wrongful termination?Stitch01 said:
Not only do Jastremski and McNally know whether or not they deflated the balls, they have first-hand knowledge that the refs send balls out that aren't regulation (16 lb.). On the latter point, they have Aaron Rodgers's public, unsolicited confirmation.
Me too and have already begun thinking about how TB suspension would impact next few months. We orobably would not get a ruling ion an appeal before Aug 15. That's how these things go.drleather2001 said:
So:
One more QB on the roster than they would otherwise carry.
JG gets worked like a mule in mini-camps, training camp, and so forth.
Anything else?
Thanks. I certainly agree that if incorporating a realistic SD to the hypothetical 12.5 average makes a meaningful difference in the p-value assigned to the final readings, that would be a pretty ridiculous error on their part. I'll defer any further comment until I've had a chance to look at the report.Filet-O-Fisk said:
I was actually thinking the same thing. I'd love to see whether the team could act in some form of protest in response to this. After all, this isn't some role player we're talking about here. It's the leader of the team and a guy who is in the running for the greatest player (forget just QB) in the history of the game.Rudy Pemberton said:
I'm not going to post the link, because you all know where you can find it. But today Shank/CHB is saying the punishment will be worse than that handed out to the 1919 Black Sox. He's basing this on the words of an unnamed "expert".
No, as is his typical modus operandi, he's not getting into any specifics. His column is basically a rant that concludes the Pats, from Kraft and Belichick on down, are cheaters, no matter how the fans want to spin it. And the obvious holes in the Wells report don't matter; the entire team is guilty, was caught, and will be punished. And that the peanut gallery of fans from NY and other locales basically had it right all along.dcmissle said:
It was by far his worst column he ever wrote. And that's saying something.
EDIT: But he did accomplish something; Eric Wilbur is no longer the worst local columnist.