#DFG: Canceling the Noise
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The details in the report provide Goodell with the cover he needs to punish Brady, including a suspension if needed.ivanvamp said:
However, the holes in that report are so wide, that there's almost zero chance any such suspension would be upheld during appeal. The statements from Brady's agent make it clear that just about any punishment will be appealed, and the well noted flaws in the Wells report will be the focus of the appeal. I give the NFLPA/Brady a 99% chance of victory in that hearing.
tedseye said:
Yeah they basically just assumed that all the balls were tested way after those curves flattened out...
It's a trick question though because, as anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, psi fluctuates based on atmospheric conditions.Gambler7 said:
drleather2001 said:
If this gets me to re-watch Breaker Morant, that would be the only good that comes out of this whole mess.
I don't think an experienced investigator would ever make that assumption. You don't know what you don't know.nighthob said:
I think whoever said that Brady (and Ghostkowski) refusing to turn over phones is likely a union thing and not one that is based on fear of revealing anything in particular is correct.
If it is, (and even if it is just advice from Brady's personal lawyer), faulting Brady for that is akin to blaming someone for not talking to the police, per instructions of their lawyer, by saying "Well, if they had nothing to hide, why didn't they just tell the police what they knew?!"
"I deflated the balls? I deflated the balls! I deflated the BALLS?! Whoa! Wait a minute!"
If it is, (and even if it is just advice from Brady's personal lawyer), faulting Brady for that is akin to blaming someone for not talking to the police, per instructions of their lawyer, by saying "Well, if they had nothing to hide, why didn't they just tell the police what they knew?!"
"I deflated the balls? I deflated the balls! I deflated the BALLS?! Whoa! Wait a minute!"
lexrageorge said:
IANAL and everything but my understanding is that an appeal would also involve a significant discovery phase that might be pretty damaging to the league. I'm pretty sure Vilma's side requested a ton of info about the Bountygate investigation and how it came about. I imagine the NFLPA would do the same thing with a Brady appeal.
drleather2001 said:
PFT reports that the union didn't advise or represent Brady in the investigation, although your broader point still stands.
Yes, that's one of the reasons why I said I'm fine with his decision, in the portion you quotedHarry Hooper said:
It's the equivalent of a fishing expedition. Let me go through your phone to see what I can take out of context. No one would give up there phone.EvilEmpire said:
nighthob said:
If I had to guess, they were probably most interested in Brady's phone to see whether they could implicate more senior members of the Pats organization in the alleged deflation scheme (i.e. Belichick, McDaniels, Schonfeld, et al.), those who Brady is more likely to have been in regular contact with.
SuperManny said:
Yeah, imagine all the embarassing spelling errors and typos the lawyers would [sic] into the report.
I think you're wrong. The report clearly states that they asked for relevant texts only. Why are you dismissing this?nighthob said:
Hint: "Relevant" texts are not limited to communications with the 2 ball boy / goons in question. They would include any texts to other individuals ragaedong the topic of game balls and air pressure.
Brady (via his lawyer) speaks:
on NFL.com
"The Wells report, with all due respect, is a significant and terrible disappointment. It's omission of key facts and lines of inquiry suggest the investigators reached a conclusion first, and then determined so-called facts later. One item alone taints this entire report. What does it say about the league office's protocols and ethics when it allows one team to tip it off to an issue prior to a championship game, and no league officials or game officials notified the Patriots of the same issue prior to the game?
"This suggests it may be more probable than not that the league cooperated with the Colts in perpetrating a sting operation. The Wells report buries this issue in a footnote on page 46 without any further elaboration. The league is a significant client of the investigators' law firm; it appears to be a rich source of billings and media exposure based on content in the law firm's website.
"This was not an independent investigation and the contents of the report bear that out --- all one has to do is read closely and critically, as opposed to simply reading headlines. The investigators' assumptions and inferences are easily debunked or subject to multiple interpretations.
"Much of the report's vulnerabilities are buried in the footnotes, which is a common legal writing tactic. It is a sad day for the league as it has abdicated the resolution of football-specific issues to people who don't understand the context or culture of the sport. I was physically present for my client's interview. I have verbatim notes of the interview. Tom made himself available for nearly an entire day and patiently answered every question. It was clear to me the investigators had limited understanding of professional football.
"For reasons unknown, the Wells report omitted nearly all of Tom's testimony, most of which was critical because it would have provided this report with the context that it lacks. Mr. Wells promised back in January to share the results of this investigation publicly, so why not follow through and make public all of the information gathered and let the public draw its own conclusions? This report contains significant and tragic flaws, and it is common knowledge in the legal industry that reports like this generally are written for the benefit of the purchaser."
on NFL.com
"The Wells report, with all due respect, is a significant and terrible disappointment. It's omission of key facts and lines of inquiry suggest the investigators reached a conclusion first, and then determined so-called facts later. One item alone taints this entire report. What does it say about the league office's protocols and ethics when it allows one team to tip it off to an issue prior to a championship game, and no league officials or game officials notified the Patriots of the same issue prior to the game?
"This suggests it may be more probable than not that the league cooperated with the Colts in perpetrating a sting operation. The Wells report buries this issue in a footnote on page 46 without any further elaboration. The league is a significant client of the investigators' law firm; it appears to be a rich source of billings and media exposure based on content in the law firm's website.
"This was not an independent investigation and the contents of the report bear that out --- all one has to do is read closely and critically, as opposed to simply reading headlines. The investigators' assumptions and inferences are easily debunked or subject to multiple interpretations.
"Much of the report's vulnerabilities are buried in the footnotes, which is a common legal writing tactic. It is a sad day for the league as it has abdicated the resolution of football-specific issues to people who don't understand the context or culture of the sport. I was physically present for my client's interview. I have verbatim notes of the interview. Tom made himself available for nearly an entire day and patiently answered every question. It was clear to me the investigators had limited understanding of professional football.
"For reasons unknown, the Wells report omitted nearly all of Tom's testimony, most of which was critical because it would have provided this report with the context that it lacks. Mr. Wells promised back in January to share the results of this investigation publicly, so why not follow through and make public all of the information gathered and let the public draw its own conclusions? This report contains significant and tragic flaws, and it is common knowledge in the legal industry that reports like this generally are written for the benefit of the purchaser."
So let's assume that Brady told them some form of this: "You already have the sum total of all the texts pertaining to game balls and air pressure from the two Pats employees". Would that lead Wells to conclude that Brady was being uncooperative? Or lying?
It doesn't make sense for Brady to hand over his phone, guilty or not. A lack of incriminating texts isn't going to clear him, and obviously if he's guilty and there are incriminating texts that doesn't work either. The only thing it accomplishes is that a bunch of paid shills for the league sift through his personal correspondence.
Heh. I just noticed the title: "[SIZE=12pt]INVESTIGATIVE REPORT CONCERNING FOOTBALLS USED DURING THE AFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME ON JANUARY 18, 2015".[/SIZE]
It's clear that they don't care ONE LITTLE BIT about any other football shenanigans that might or might not be happening around the league. And once again, I will refer us all to this story:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings
"MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Vikings played their coldest home game in 38 years on Sunday, when they beat the Carolina Panthers in 12-degree temperatures at TCF Bank Stadium.
As both teams dealt with the freezing temperatures, Fox cameras showed sideline attendants using heaters to warm up game balls, which is against league rules. NFL vice president of officiating Dean Blandino said Monday morning on NFL Network that officials warned both the Vikings and Panthers not to heat up the balls during Sunday's game, and would remind teams this week not to heat game balls.
"You can't do anything with the footballs in terms of any artificial, whether you're heating them up, whether it's a regular game ball or kicking ball, you can't do anything to the football," Blandino said. "So that was noticed during the game, both teams were made aware of it during the game and we will certainly remind the clubs as we get into more cold weather games that you can't do anything with the football in terms of heating them up with those sideline heaters."
By rule, the home team is responsible for providing the game balls. The footage shown on NFL Network is from the Vikings' sideline,though there are attendants from both teams on both sidelines and a league source said the Vikings weren't heating up the balls during the game.
Zimmer said he hadn't heard anything from the league about it on Monday, adding, "Somebody told me (Carolina's) ball boys were doing it."
Ball boys are allowed to carry hand heaters, as Fox officiating analyst Mike Pereira pointed out, but they are not allowed to put game balls in front of sideline heaters. The Vikings have two December home games on their schedule -- this Sunday against the New York Jets and Dec. 28 against the Chicago Bears. After the league sent out a warning, it stands to reason they'll be watching the sidelines closely in cold-weather games this month."
So the NFL watched the Panthers (specifically) tampering with the air pressure in the footballs during a game (note, this was AFTER they were cleared by the game official), and this was SO SERIOUS A CRIME that they actually told the teams not to do it, and that they'd issue everyone else a note along those lines.
The integrity of the game is clearly at stake, right? Football pressure is so important that league rules MUST be followed or else. Or else…..what? It's like the night watchman yelling, "Stop, or I'll yell stop again!"
The Patriots have deflated footballs in a similar cold-weather game, and they MAY or MAY NOT have tampered with them (still no proof they did, though it wouldn't surprise any of us if McNally did), and the Pats might be facing the suspension of the best player in the NFL as a result - and there is NO EVIDENCE that he was actually involved at all - just that he more likely than not "had a general knowledge" of what was going on.
A team is caught ON TV tampering with the footballs during a game and they get….nothing. Absolutely. Nothing. But the Patriots, who are NOT caught actually doing anything but circumstantial evidence leads a biased investigator-for-hire to the conclusion that they more likely than not did do something, will be hit hard with punishment.
This cannot be emphasized enough how unfair this is to the Patriots. The media should be ALL OVER THIS. How on earth is this just? How on earth is this in any way fair or right?
It's clear that they don't care ONE LITTLE BIT about any other football shenanigans that might or might not be happening around the league. And once again, I will refer us all to this story:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings
"MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Vikings played their coldest home game in 38 years on Sunday, when they beat the Carolina Panthers in 12-degree temperatures at TCF Bank Stadium.
As both teams dealt with the freezing temperatures, Fox cameras showed sideline attendants using heaters to warm up game balls, which is against league rules. NFL vice president of officiating Dean Blandino said Monday morning on NFL Network that officials warned both the Vikings and Panthers not to heat up the balls during Sunday's game, and would remind teams this week not to heat game balls.
"You can't do anything with the footballs in terms of any artificial, whether you're heating them up, whether it's a regular game ball or kicking ball, you can't do anything to the football," Blandino said. "So that was noticed during the game, both teams were made aware of it during the game and we will certainly remind the clubs as we get into more cold weather games that you can't do anything with the football in terms of heating them up with those sideline heaters."
By rule, the home team is responsible for providing the game balls. The footage shown on NFL Network is from the Vikings' sideline,though there are attendants from both teams on both sidelines and a league source said the Vikings weren't heating up the balls during the game.
Zimmer said he hadn't heard anything from the league about it on Monday, adding, "Somebody told me (Carolina's) ball boys were doing it."
Ball boys are allowed to carry hand heaters, as Fox officiating analyst Mike Pereira pointed out, but they are not allowed to put game balls in front of sideline heaters. The Vikings have two December home games on their schedule -- this Sunday against the New York Jets and Dec. 28 against the Chicago Bears. After the league sent out a warning, it stands to reason they'll be watching the sidelines closely in cold-weather games this month."
So the NFL watched the Panthers (specifically) tampering with the air pressure in the footballs during a game (note, this was AFTER they were cleared by the game official), and this was SO SERIOUS A CRIME that they actually told the teams not to do it, and that they'd issue everyone else a note along those lines.
The integrity of the game is clearly at stake, right? Football pressure is so important that league rules MUST be followed or else. Or else…..what? It's like the night watchman yelling, "Stop, or I'll yell stop again!"
The Patriots have deflated footballs in a similar cold-weather game, and they MAY or MAY NOT have tampered with them (still no proof they did, though it wouldn't surprise any of us if McNally did), and the Pats might be facing the suspension of the best player in the NFL as a result - and there is NO EVIDENCE that he was actually involved at all - just that he more likely than not "had a general knowledge" of what was going on.
A team is caught ON TV tampering with the footballs during a game and they get….nothing. Absolutely. Nothing. But the Patriots, who are NOT caught actually doing anything but circumstantial evidence leads a biased investigator-for-hire to the conclusion that they more likely than not did do something, will be hit hard with punishment.
This cannot be emphasized enough how unfair this is to the Patriots. The media should be ALL OVER THIS. How on earth is this just? How on earth is this in any way fair or right?
Saw this on my CBS Sports feed. 1 year???
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year
So "possibly" being involved in altering the PSI of a football is a more criminal offense to the NFL than domestic violence. Ummm..........
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year
So "possibly" being involved in altering the PSI of a football is a more criminal offense to the NFL than domestic violence. Ummm..........
Jettisoned said:
The more I think about it, the more it makes zero sense. I said earlier that as a named plaintiff in the suit against the NFL, Brady's obligation to the PA means he won't turn his phone over for fear of setting a bad precedent. But let's say that he does turn the messages over. It's not like Wells is giving him a list of text messages that he wants. He gives him what he thinks is relevant communication. Shockingly, not a single text message paints Brady in an incriminating light. As mentioned before, the Wells report notes that they have reason to believe there is more to be considered, but that Tom only made a portion of his text messages available. Furthermore, Wells hasn't shared what he recovered from other phones. Say he has a text with the cleared equipment manager. Something around Christmas that says "Hey, can you get the guys' wives' shoe sizes? I've got some Uggs coming over for them.". Brady didn't think a routine Christmas gift was relevant. Suddenly, the Wells reports now notes that Brady not only turned over a sanitized white washed set of messages, but they have proof on the other side that there were relevant text messages pertaining to gifts given to McNally and JJ (and of course the rest of the team, but much like the autographs McNally got, there's no context to how many other employees also got them), and they think it proves Tom is hiding more. While that scenario is a bit on the exaggerated side, turning over your own interpretation of "relevant text messages" only invites many more specific questions of what are you hiding. And once THOSE questions are asked, Wells has some leverage to ask to look through your history himself. It's an awful idea, and a trap set by Wells, if he's working under the assumption that Brady was involved. There is nothing in there that will clear him, if a documented instance of Brady requesting the balls be set to 12.5, and delivered to the officials with a copy of the rules showing that 12.5 is acceptable, and that they should be kept there, is not evidence that sways Wells' opinion. Trying to prove a negative like "I didn't know" is fighting a losing battle. And much like "I used a urinal" instead of "I took a leak" will be turned into proof because it's a toilet only bathroom, no urinal, any slip up or open to interpretation message Brady has is going to be proof of guilt to Wells.
Ray Lewis (under Tagliabue) got a 250K fine and NO suspension. Not a day.
Standing trial for murder vs 1 psi? New sheriff.
Standing trial for murder vs 1 psi? New sheriff.
Bill Polian on PTI now blammering on about Integrity of the Game. Punted on what the punishment would be. Also thinks if the guilty party was a team other than the Pats then it would be a big deal to the league, lesser so to the public.
They had the communications between Brady and Jastremski. I think I stipulated that they wanted their investigators to look through every stored text message to mine any quote that could in any way be construed as supporting the conclusion they were working from.EvilEmpire said:
Have not read through all the post but here are a few things that I wonder about that I have not
read yet.
Almost all media saying with the Well's report Brady is guilty, it's right there in black and white
can't argue with the facts. What facts? I see Brady tell them he wants the balls at 12.5 get it done.
If they were trying to cover it up, why didn't JJ just fall on the sword and say I told McNally do
whatever it take to make sure the balls are at 12.5. That’s what Brady wants, make it happen.
Ran out of time to test pressure on all Balls??? But McNally was able to get it done in a
bathroom in under 2 mins. So 4 Refs couldn't do it in less time?
My theory, Brady wanted balls at 12.5. Found out Refs were inflating them past what he wanted. Told
JJ to make sure they are at 12.5 when they get to the field. Hand them the rules so they don't
inflate them again. JJ has McNally check before games. Deflate if over the 12.5.
read yet.
Almost all media saying with the Well's report Brady is guilty, it's right there in black and white
can't argue with the facts. What facts? I see Brady tell them he wants the balls at 12.5 get it done.
If they were trying to cover it up, why didn't JJ just fall on the sword and say I told McNally do
whatever it take to make sure the balls are at 12.5. That’s what Brady wants, make it happen.
Ran out of time to test pressure on all Balls??? But McNally was able to get it done in a
bathroom in under 2 mins. So 4 Refs couldn't do it in less time?
My theory, Brady wanted balls at 12.5. Found out Refs were inflating them past what he wanted. Told
JJ to make sure they are at 12.5 when they get to the field. Hand them the rules so they don't
inflate them again. JJ has McNally check before games. Deflate if over the 12.5.
I don't know, but we'll never find out. Look, I'm clearly on Brady's side on this subject. I was only trying to corect two separate statements thst (a) he was asked to turn over his entire phone, and (b) it should be obvious to the investigators that they already have everything.Mooch said:
Using these readings we assume the Patriots' balls were measured immediately. For a conservative number let's say within 5 min. of entering a 71 degree environment. Using the experiment done by Car. Mellon and the time numbers given to us by DennyDoylesBoil, also assuming a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, the Patriot balls should have measured between 11.0 and 11.5. Forget the rest of the noise and speculation. If we base the whole thing on those assumptions then these numbers are hard facts.JohnnyK said:
The only way there was tampering going on is if it was done by less than .5 psi and even that's questionable. Texts are subjective. Motives are subjective. These numbers are not.
What am I missing??
Everyone should read this post and then stop arguing whether Brady should have turned over records.PBDWake said:
To add, if the Colts measured the intercepted ball (losing some air in the process), then it's likely one of the 2 or 3 lowest-pressure balls. It shouldn't even be included in the set.
Not to mention that the chain of custody for that one is highly suspect.Harry Hooper said:
But I bet they didn't even keep track of which one it was.
Edit: And it doesn't matter anyway, because they don't know what any of the balls started at, despite presuming Anderson's flawless memory of the pressures he found even though he couldn't remember which gauge he used.
djbayko said:
Are you basing your conclusions about the scope of the request on this portion of the report?
"Of note, Tom Brady was asked to provide emails and text messages in response to narrowly tailored requests pertinent to the subject of our investigation. Brady declined our request."
From experience both sending and receiving interrogatories, I can assure you that "narrowly tailored" means very different things to lawyers sitting on opposite sides of the table. I'm not excusing Brady's general lack of cooperation, but I wouldn't dismiss concerns about the breadth of the request based on Wells' self-serving suggestion that the request was reasonable and non-intrusive.
They didn't assume that the balls measured 12.5psi at 71º, they used the assumption that they measured 12.5psi at room temperature and were then warmed up later in the 71-74 range. This decreases the amount of reduction in pressure on the front end while maximising the expected increase on the back end. If they used the same temperature range on both ends then the balls fall within the expected range.koufax32 said:
It just amazes me how easily the NFL is willing to throw one of its greatest teams under the bus. No chance the NBA does anything to tarnish Lebron. MLB slid steroid use under the rug. And yet the NFL is worried about air pressure and the integrity of the game while its players murder and have all other sorts of serious issues.
Exactly. "Narrowly tailored" could mean
Yes. "narrowly tailored requests pertinent to the subject" theoretically could have been "texts to or from other players, coaches, and any other football-related personnel during the 2014-2015 season."PhilPlantier said: