#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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dcmissle

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Otis Foster said:
 
I get your point about the testing, but what about non-cooperation? Why wouldn't TB's counsel take up the offer to filter only texts dealing with the inflation question? If in fact the NFL had conducted the prior investigations, why didn't Bingham permit a 2d round on McNally by phone?
 
I (and I suspect you) have both been around long enough to recognize non-responsive behavior and what usually lies behind it.We also recognize permissible inferences, when appropriate. I almost wonder if Wells and PW laid a snare for the NEP to fall into.
That part I have not totally drilled down on -- and, in particular, I don't know this is sufficient, as a matter of parsing the applicable League rule, to net them a Brady suspension.

But we have both been through enough things like this to understand that "cooperation" is not open ended. Everything is governed by reasonableness. Right now we have only Wells' side of the non-cooperation story, and we have seen enough of the report as a whole to understand that there may be another side of this story.

For example:

We know one of the two guys was interviewed 3 times by NFL Security, then by Wells, and Wells cites the refusal to submit for a 5th interview as non-cooperation.

I've been before plenty of judges who would say, you know what? Four times is enough. I don't care that you, Mr. Wells, only got one bite at this apple. NFL security got 3 and it's on your client's nickel. Complain to Mr. Goodell if you have a beef.

Whenever the NFL gets in trouble in these things, it's often because they act as if the rules that bind everybody else do not apply to it.
 

LuckyBen

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Otis Foster said:
 
It's usually not left to the person being questioned to decide that 'there's no point' in further disclosure.
Then why did Wells not force the issue? As had been said, this was a fishing trip by Wells and gang and they had very little standing.
 

bostonbruen

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WayBackVazquez said:
On page 36, we learn the referees' manual states: "If the footballs are delivered to you with a pressure between 12 1⁄2 and 13 1⁄2 pounds, you should not adjust the pressure, as that is the preference of that team‟s QB. If the pressure is below 12 1⁄2, inflate the ball to 12 1⁄2 and if above 13 1⁄2 deflate the ball to that pressure."

On the next page, the report says: "ome officiating crews adjust the air pressure in a game ball only if they determine that it has been set outside of the permissible range, while others may set the pressure of each football to 13.0 psi, regardless of where the balls are initially set by the team, to provide consistency."

So that's good to know. But let's believe everything we're told about the pregame testing during the AFCG.

 Exactly, which is why this is not a big deal to the NFL or at least it wasn't untl this game. The officials admittedly don't even follow their own procedures for testing/inflating the balls. Hence the low penalty $25k.
 

moondog80

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So one, and only one, of the following must be true:
 
1. The ballboy did not deflate the footballs.
2. The ballboy did deflate the footballs and lied when asked by the Patriots.
3. The ballboy did deflate the footballs, told the Patriots the truth, who then covered it up.
4. The ballboy did deflate the footballs, but was not asked about it by the Patriots.
 

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Joshv02 said:
Team, yes - that was pointed out hundreds of posts prior.
I don't know of the obligation of Brady to cooperate (and I do not see one in the CBA).  Do you know of any obligation by Brady to cooperate?  
 
Is anyone else troubled that Jamestr9803yut9igvhn9w2rehy handed over his phone but Brady didn't? I know he handed it over to the Patriots, but this has a whiff of class issue on it. As in, the rich guy with power asked his lawyer and said no whereas the working class schmo just did as he was told. I don't like it...
 
 
Hagios said:
 
Brilliant! And perfectly captures the prevailing attitude of most posters here. I was in the Carnegie Mellon atmospherics camp until I saw the text messages.
 
Doesn't the Carnegie Mellon atmospherics still have to be reckoned with, though? Texts don't change those findings.

I feel like that's dropping out of all of this--the facts, the science. It's natural to humans to do that, to look to the interpersonal, but it's not conducive to fact finding, even if he really did deflate the balls.
 

redsahx

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It's more than flimsy, it's not valid at all.  The Colts balls did not show a pressure drop that is even close to what would be expected based on temperature drop.  The Wells report itself said the Patriots balls should have dropped around 1-1.3 psi if they started at 67-71 deg F and then were moved to 48 deg F.  But they never applied that same criteria to the Colts' balls, which should have also dropped somewhere between 1-1.3 psi .   They didn't, they dropped on average 0.45 psi. The Patriots balls, as stated in the Wells report, dropped 1.02 psi.   
So the Patriots balls dropped 1.02 psi, which is on the lower end of the range predicted by the calculations done by the Wells report investigators themselves, while the Colts balls dropped 0.45 psi and somehow the conclusion is that the Patriots balls are out of whack.
I didn't catch that part about expected drop at first but I think you're right. What I mainly objected to is how they threw out there that basically there was a >99% chance based on the data that the balls would have had to have been tampered with to explain the discrepancy. Felger & Mazz latched onto that yesterday. There is no way Exponent should have presented that as a reasonable inference given how big of an assumption was being made on the starting point.

They also had to come up with an explanation for why Blakeman consistently measured the Pats balls lower than Priloeau, yet somehow measured the Colts balls higher than Priloeau. The explanation was that they must have switched gauges in between, but that makes no sense and is a terrible scientific process that, again, basically would invalidate the data in the eyes of any critical scientific eye.
 

steveluck7

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There is no Rev said:
 
Is anyone else troubled that Jamestr9803yut9igvhn9w2rehy handed over his phone but Brady didn't? I know he handed it over to the Patriots, but this has a whiff of class issue on it. As in, the rich guy with power asked his lawyer and said no whereas the working class schmo just did as he was told. I don't like it...
 
 
JJ's cell phone was team issued
 

McBride11

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Filet-O-Fisk said:
This is key.  The disproportionate drop in Pats balls vs. Colts' balls.   This should be a bigger deal.  The Colts balls, assumed to all be at 13.0 at the start, did not drop enough if you apply the same criteria that the Wells report did to the Patriots balls (i.e. 67-71 deg F inside, 48 deg F outside).  In fact, doing a calculation using the ideal gas law (as the scienticians in the Wells report did), a ball at 13.0 PSI going from 67-71 deg F to 48 deg F should have had a PSI drop of 3.6-4.3%.  The Colts' balls, which again started at 13.0, and included one measurement of 12.95 psi and another of 12.75 in two different balls, only dropped 0.9-2.3%.  This fact alone undermines the entire foundation of the "Patriots are cheating!" argument because it is based on the "disproportionate drop in psi" between Pats' and Colts' balls, and the Colts' balls, aka the control, aka the gold standard, are junk. 
 
You realize that:
a) we are 'assuming' where the Colts balls started as this was not measured
b) the Colts balls at half time were measured after the Pats meaning they had more time to warm up
 
Oh ya, where are the documented Pats balls pregame? maybe they started at 12.25 or 12. Nothing is documented. Saying they 'proved' it was deflated after the refs checked them is a joke.
 
edit: Unless I missed all of this info somewhere.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I just want to mention one aspect of the report, without defending it, because there seems to be some confusion.

The report relies on 3 basic things:

1. Ideal Gas Law
2. Experimental results showing approximately how long it takes a football to acclimate to an approximate 20+ degree rise in temperature.
3. The starting point of all balls 2+ hours before kickoff.

Of the 3, the starting point is most problematic. Why, if the officials were alerted to possible tampering prior to the game, did they not accurately record all inflation settings, per ball?

Anyway, the premise is that all balls would start pressurizing as soon as they were brought in at halftime. Experimentation shows the rate of temperature gain per minute +/-

The Pats balls were measured first. Then the Colts balls. The Colts balls should have regained more pressure than the Pats balls because they say inside longer. That implies different pressure drops from the starting point.

There wasn't enough time during the break to allow all balls to completely re-acclimate to their original pre-game temperature and pressure.

Without going into more detail, it appears they took the best case scenario for the Pats: minimum temperature rise, maximum deviation from the best (for the Pats) pressure gauge - and show how unlikely (but possible) it was for those balls to have been at or near 12.5.

The range of deviations took into account the gradual re-pressurization of all balls.

There very well may be flaws in the study. I'll read it again. I'm not good with deviation statistics.

Just thought I'd clarify the time-based remeasurements as best I could from memory.

I really hope someone can debunk this.
 

dcmissle

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There is a level of a-hole-edness that comes with doing business and practicing law in NYC that can represent a blind spot and serious weakness.

That's why the NFL has more than a few times found itself before judges and arbitrators who hail from the mid-West -- and gets cut to pieces.
 

Leather

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There is no Rev said:
 
Is anyone else troubled that Jamestr9803yut9igvhn9w2rehy handed over his phone but Brady didn't? I know he handed it over to the Patriots, but this has a whiff of class issue on it. As in, the rich guy with power asked his lawyer and said no whereas the working class schmo just did as he was told. I don't like it...
 
 
 
Doesn't the Carnegie Mellon atmospherics still have to be reckoned with, though? Texts don't change those findings.

I feel like that's dropping out of all of this--the facts, the science. It's natural to humans to do that, to look to the interpersonal, but it's not conducive to fact finding, even if he really did deflate the balls.
 
I believe we are assuming that the phone was owned/provided by the team, which means that all texts on it are property of the team, so the team can do whatever they want with it.  The team was required to comply, so they handed it over.
 
Tom Brady likely has his own cell phone.
 

WayBackVazquez

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There is no Rev said:
 
Is anyone else troubled that Jamestr9803yut9igvhn9w2rehy handed over his phone but Brady didn't? I know he handed it over to the Patriots, but this has a whiff of class issue on it. As in, the rich guy with power asked his lawyer and said no whereas the working class schmo just did as he was told. I don't like it...
 
 
 
Doesn't the Carnegie Mellon atmospherics still have to be reckoned with, though? Texts don't change those findings.

I feel like that's dropping out of all of this--the facts, the science. It's natural to humans to do that, to look to the interpersonal, but it's not conducive to fact finding, even if he really did deflate the balls.
the equipment dude's phone was team issued. I'd hand over my firm device of asked, because I have to. if they want my personal phone, there'd better be a subpoena.
 

HomeBrew1901

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How are we almost 24 hours from the release of this report and no punishment has been handed down? 

Could go either way:

The longer this drags out the worse the penalty is going to be or is Goodell waiting a few days for all this to settle down so there isn't a huge uproar when Brady is only fined.  Maybe dole out the punishment on Mother's Day.
 

dcmissle

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HomeBrew1901 said:
How are we almost 24 hours from the release of this report and no punishment has been handed down? 
Could go either way:
The longer this drags out the worse the penalty is going to be or is Goodell waiting a few days for all this to settle down so there isn't a huge uproar when Brady is only fined.  Maybe dole out the punishment on Mother's Day.
Because somebody's Ray-Rice-burned finger is in the air.
 

Leather

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HomeBrew1901 said:
How are we almost 24 hours from the release of this report and no punishment has been handed down? 
Could go either way:
The longer this drags out the worse the penalty is going to be or is Goodell waiting a few days for all this to settle down so there isn't a huge uproar when Brady is only fined.  Maybe dole out the punishment on Mother's Day.
 
What in this entire process has led you to believe that Goodell is shying away from making as big a deal out of it as he possibly can?
 
He wants the exposure; this is the first time in years that anybody is talking about the NFL in May.
 
EDIT: I expect the punishment to be announced at 3 PM on Monday so they can dominate another week of sporting news.
 

redsahx

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Is anyone else troubled that Jamestr9803yut9igvhn9w2rehy handed over his phone but Brady didn't? I know he handed it over to the Patriots, but this has a whiff of class issue on it. As in, the rich guy with power asked his lawyer and said no whereas the working class schmo just did as he was told. I don't like it...
Well neither should have to release their cell phones, but in the case of Brady it is an even bigger deal. Brady's private info and conversations would be extremely valuable to say, tabloids or......heck any journalist. Unless he is being accused of murder and this is his only way out, why would he ever hand over his cell phone to an unknown party? Say there is a text in there of him bitching about Belichick or a teammate behind their back, or heck a text with him bitching about Gisele to a friend? Someone hacks the files of the Paul, Weiss, et al. firm, and suddenly the stuff is on the front page of the NY Post.
 

Otis Foster

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nighthob said:
They already have all the texts that Brady sent Jastremski. What they wanted was access to his text records so as to go fishing and help firm up their case with even more innuendo.
 
If they would have firmed up the case, then they clearly were discloseable. Innuendo is another word for circumstantial evidence. Quite often you encounter a situation where the totality of the circumstantial evidence can support the conclusion at hand, even though no one of the facts is dispositive, . Non-cooperation is material. This isn't a trial in state or federal court where you file a motion in limine.
 
To dispel any inferences to the contrary, I've been a Pats fan since Billy Sullivan ponied up the franchise fee, I saw the first exhibition game at B.U., and lived through the non-flushing urinals, the Rod Rust electrocution, Rocky Bleier, and Jack Nicholson's permanent seat at the Harvard Square Men's Bar. I'm not here to troll anyone. However, I've been a lawyer for many years and I am very concerned about the cooperation issue. If I'm convinced of my innocence, and knew for sure that the texts would not firm up the case, I disclose. Both TB and Kraft must have been fully aware of the cooperation obligation under the Constitution, at least for the team. I believe they did not like what they saw, and decided to risk stone-walling the request.
 
No, I can't prove it with first hand testimony, and no, I don't want it to be true, but that's what we're stuck with.
 

drbretto

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GregHarris said:

 
What does that mean Hal, what does it mean?!?  We did nothing wrong!
 
This post didn't get any love. I think it's perfect.
 
Edit: posted before refreshing. Damn this thread moves fast.
 

Shelterdog

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dcmissle said:
There is a level of a-hole-edness that comes with doing business and practicing law in NYC that can represent a blind spot and serious weakness.

That's why the NFL has more than a few times found itself before judges and arbitrators who hail from the mid-West -- and gets cut to pieces.
what on earth do you mean by this?
 

Otis Foster

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Joshv02 said:
 Bingham McCutchen. They're NEP corporate counsel and I assume they were involved in the investigation. If I'm wrong, apologies in advance.
 

Reverend

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steveluck7 said:
JJ's cell phone was team issued
 
drleather2001 said:
 
I believe we are assuming that the phone was owned/provided by the team, which means that all texts on it are property of the team, so the team can do whatever they want with it.  The team was required to comply, so they handed it over.
 
Tom Brady likely has his own cell phone.
 
This arguably makes it worse.
 
 
WayBackVazquez said:
the equipment dude's phone was team issued. I'd hand over my firm device of asked, because I have to. if they want my personal phone, there'd better be a subpoena.
 
Exactafuckinglutely.
 
 
redsahx said:
Well neither should have to release their cell phones, but in the case of Brady it is an even bigger deal. Brady's private info and conversations would be extremely valuable to say, tabloids or......heck any journalist. Unless he is being accused of murder and this is his only way out, why would he ever hand over his cell phone to an unknown party? Say there is a text in there of him bitching about Belichick or a teammate behind their back, or heck a text with him bitching about Gisele to a friend? Someone hacks the files of the Paul, Weiss, et al. firm, and suddenly the stuff is on the front page of the NY Post.
 
Right.
 

Joshv02

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Otis Foster said:
 Bingham McCutchen. They're NEP corporate counsel and I assume they were involved in the investigation. If I'm wrong, apologies in advance.
I should have added a smiley or something.  
They folded up shop last year; I think the Patriots guys mainly moved to Morgan Lewis (the guy who did the Kraft work definitely did (his book was a condition), and I assume most of his lieutenants).  
 

PBDWake

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Otis Foster said:
 
I get your point about the testing, but what about non-cooperation? Why wouldn't TB's counsel take up the offer to filter only texts dealing with the inflation question? If in fact the NFL had conducted the prior investigations, why didn't Bingham permit a 2d round on McNally by phone?
 
I (and I suspect you) have both been around long enough to recognize non-responsive behavior and what usually lies behind it.We also recognize permissible inferences, when appropriate. I almost wonder if Wells and PW laid a snare for the NEP to fall into.
 
If the team and player thought this was a witch hunt, why would they cooperate for an eternity? And as has been brought up numerous times, Brady is a leader in the union. He was a named plaintiff in the lawsuit against the NFL. No member of union leadership is going to hand over any manner of cell phone record without any kind of subpoena. It's setting a dangerous precedent for any subsequent investigation.
 

DJnVa

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Otis Foster said:
 
It's great that you're cruising along so smoothly through this mess, but it doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to what happens in the real world.
Stand down Marine.

This isn't the real world. It's sports.
 

loshjott

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I wonder if anybody connected with the Pats other than Dumb and Dumber had any idea those texts between the two existed before they saw the report?  Brady sure hasn't kept a low profile in the past several weeks for someone who was about to be called a liar by Ted Wells.
 

Reverend

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Otis Foster said:
 
If they would have firmed up the case, then they clearly were discloseable. Innuendo is another word for circumstantial evidence. Quite often you encounter a situation where the totality of the circumstantial evidence can support the conclusion at hand, even though no one of the facts is dispositive, . Non-cooperation is material. This isn't a trial in state or federal court where you file a motion in limine.
 
To dispel any inferences to the contrary, I've been a Pats fan since Billy Sullivan ponied up the franchise fee, I saw the first exhibition game at B.U., and lived through the non-flushing urinals, the Rod Rust electrocution, Rocky Bleier, and Jack Nicholson's permanent seat at the Harvard Square Men's Bar. I'm not here to troll anyone. However, I've been a lawyer for many years and I am very concerned about the cooperation issue. If I'm convinced of my innocence, and knew for sure that the texts would not firm up the case, I disclose. Both TB and Kraft must have been fully aware of the cooperation obligation under the Constitution, at least for the team. I believe they did not like what they saw, and decided to risk stone-walling the request.
 
No, I can't prove it with first hand testimony, and no, I don't want it to be true, but that's what we're stuck with.
 
I gotta admit, I bristled when I read the capitalization of "Constitution" with reference to the NFL.
 

cornwalls@6

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By the time they got around to interviewing Brady, there had been so many leaks already I can easily see and understand Tom saying " fuck you clowns, you've proven to be completely unable to control these leaks, there is no way in hell I'm turning over my phone to you".  Not sure why anybody finds that unreasonable, suspicious, or whatever. And although the leaks seemed to come more from league than from Wells and his firm, I don't think it all surprising for anyone to conflate the two.   
 

Otis Foster

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Joshv02 said:
I should have added a smiley or something.  
They folded up shop last year; I think the Patriots guys mainly moved to Morgan Lewis (the guy who did the Kraft work definitely did (his book was a condition), and I assume most of his lieutenants).  
 
Thnx - how could I forget? That was seismic
 
There is no Rev said:
 
I gotta admit, I bristled when I read the capitalization of "Constitution" with reference to the NFL.
Not my choice. That's how they refer to it.
.
 

DJnVa

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McBride11 said:
 
You realize that:
a) we are 'assuming' where the Colts balls started as this was not measured
b) the Colts balls at half time were measured after the Pats meaning they had more time to warm up
 
Oh ya, where are the documented Pats balls pregame? maybe they started at 12.25 or 12. Nothing is documented. Saying they 'proved' it was deflated after the refs checked them is a joke.
 
edit: Unless I missed all of this info somewhere.
The were checked and all the Pats balls came in around 12.5 and the Colts around 13.0. But that was based on an official's recollection, there's no documentation.
 

Reverend

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There is no Rev said:
 

 
If they would have firmed up the case, then they clearly were discloseable. Innuendo is another word for circumstantial evidence. Quite often you encounter a situation where the totality of the circumstantial evidence can support the conclusion at hand, even though no one of the facts is dispositive, . Non-cooperation is material. This isn't a trial in state or federal court where you file a motion in limine.
 
To dispel any inferences to the contrary, I've been a Pats fan since Billy Sullivan ponied up the franchise fee, I saw the first exhibition game at B.U., and lived through the non-flushing urinals, the Rod Rust electrocution, Rocky Bleier, and Jack Nicholson's permanent seat at the Harvard Square Men's Bar. I'm not here to troll anyone. However, I've been a lawyer for many years and I am very concerned about the cooperation issue. If I'm convinced of my innocence, and knew for sure that the texts would not firm up the case, I disclose. Both TB and Kraft must have been fully aware of the cooperation obligation under the Constitution, at least for the team. I believe they did not like what they saw, and decided to risk stone-walling the request.
 
No, I can't prove it with first hand testimony, and no, I don't want it to be true, but that's what we're stuck with.

 
 
I gotta admit, I bristled when I read the capitalization of "Constitution" with reference to the NFL.
 
OK, so I just geeked out and looked up all the instances of "cooperation" being mentioned by word in the NFL Constitution and Bylaws. It's... instructive.
 
Dammit, they won't let me copy and paste it.
 
OK, anyway, there are twelve in total: I count ten references to TV, one to product sponsorships, one to licensing agreements, and one with respect to financial statements, 
 
Seriously.
 

WayBackVazquez

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"If I'm convinced of my innocence, and knew for sure that the texts would not firm up the case, I disclose."

I am literally LOLing at this. Over/under on the amount of days before PW opposing counsel asks for a presumption of liability when a PW client resists a discovery request, or opposes a motion to compel? Or, you know, just an informal request to turn over personal texts and emails in a non-litigation context.
 

soxhop411

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would not shock me if the NFL drags this out for another week + before giving a punishment...
 

DJnVa

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There is no Rev said:
 
OK, anyway, there are twelve in total: I count ten references to TV, one to product sponsorships, one to licensing agreements, and one with respect to financial statements, 
 
Seriously.
 
That's 13.
 
Geez.
 

DJnVa

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soxhop411 said:
would not shock me if the NFL drags this out for another week + before giving a punishment...
 
 
If there's no suspension, it'll be a Friday news dump.
 
Otherwise, early next week is what some NFL folks were saying.
 
 

BroodsSexton

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There is no Rev said:
 
OK, so I just geeked out and looked up all the instances of "cooperation" being mentioned by word in the NFL Constitution and Bylaws. It's... instructive.
 
Dammit, they won't let me copy and paste it.
 
OK, anyway, there are twelve in total: I count ten references to TV, one to product sponsorships, one to licensing agreements, and one with respect to financial statements, 
 
Seriously.
 
The Wells Report, at page 22, cites a duty of cooperation found in the Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of League Rules:
 
In particular, Section 2 of the Policy provides that: Actual or suspected competitive violations will be thoroughly and promptly investigated. Any club identifying a violation is required promptly to report the violation, and give its full support and cooperation in any investigation. Failure to cooperate in an investigation shall be considered conduct detrimental to the League and will subject the offending club and responsible individual(s) to appropriate discipline. Section 4 of the Policy provides that “[t]he standard of proof required to find that a violation of the competitive rules has occurred shall be a Preponderance of the Evidence.” 
 
 
It wasn't a duty of cooperation under the Constitution or by-laws.  It's a separate policy.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Otis Foster said:
Jack Nicholson's permanent seat at the Harvard Square Men's Bar.
Although I am a fourth-generation Cantab, I do not get this reference. But you seem older than I am. I was familiar with the Inn Square Men's Bar in Inman, since my uncle and grandfather each spent too much time there. I even had a satin jacket!
 

DegenerateSoxFan

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Whatever happened with Brady and Tweedledee & Dunderfuck, I can't believe that the league's failure to contact the Pats before the AFCCG isn't getting any real traction in the media (and yes, I do understand that slamming Brady gets the most clicks). This isn't that complicated. If the league had info about a possible equipment violation that could "affect the integrity of the game" prior to the game, then why would they fail to contact the Pats about it beforehand and risk having said potentially-affecting-the-integrity-of-the-game violation actually occur during the game? And not just any game, but a conference title game. .
 
 
I think I need to avoid the internet for a day or three.
 

simplyeric

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Still trying to catch up here, but I think Brady should call a press conference, and then open with some "prepared remarks" wherein he reads all of the infractions for each team, starting with the Colts and Seahawks, during his career.  Just sit there and list them all off.  PED's, tampering, on-field infractions, salary cap issues, bounties, piped-in noise, etc.   And possibly a list of infractions that were somehow not addressed by the NFL (Colt's piped in crowd noise, if I recall).
 
Not even outside-the-NFL stuff like abuse and other crimes.  
 
He should read every single one of them.
 
And then he should name this ball issue, and say "I'm very sorry that I like my footballs on the low end of the spectrum.  I'm sorry that my preference may or may not have led some good Patriots employees to make some mistakes.  I do not feel that the integrity of the game was remotely affected, and in the future we will provide extreme measures of transparency for our game-day activities.  Now...please don't ask stupid questions...go ahead..."
 
 
 

McBride11

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Jul 15, 2005
22,164
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DrewDawg said:
The were checked and all the Pats balls came in around 12.5 and the Colts around 13.0. But that was based on an official's recollection, there's no documentation.
Ok. Right. Thanks. No documentation. So 13.2, 13.3 two months later becomes uhhh around 13.
 

EvilEmpire

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Apr 9, 2007
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Still trying to catch up here, but I think Brady should call a press conference, and then open with some "prepared remarks" wherein he reads all of the infractions for each team, starting with the Colts and Seahawks, during his career.  Just sit there and list them all off.  PED's, tampering, on-field infractions, salary cap issues, bounties, piped-in noise, etc.   And possibly a list of infractions that were somehow not addressed by the NFL (Colt's piped in crowd noise, if I recall).
 
Not even outside-the-NFL stuff like abuse and other crimes.  
 
He should read every single one of them.
 
And then he should name this ball issue, and say "I'm very sorry that I like my footballs on the low end of the spectrum.  I'm sorry that my preference may or may not have led some good Patriots employees to make some mistakes.  I do not feel that the integrity of the game was remotely affected, and in the future we will provide extreme measures of transparency for our game-day activities.  Now...please don't ask stupid questions...go ahead..."
I would love to see that happen.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Aug 2, 2003
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A Lost Time
This whole scandal needs a "have you no decency" moment from someone in a higher place, only this time it should be "have you gone crazy? We are talking about  0.5 psi!".
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Aug 12, 2009
10,133
McBride11 said:
Ok. Right. Thanks. No documentation. So 13.2, 13.3 two months later becomes uhhh around 13.
Also, Anderson had two gauges that consistently produced readings that differes by .3 to .45 from each other. He was unsure which gauge he used to test pregame. Seriously.

(The science section ran the numbers using both assumptions, for what it's worth, and the window for natural conditions creating the difference in PSI is slightly more likely if one gauge was used pregame versus the other.)
 

yep

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Feb 3, 2006
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amarshal2 said:
They presented a range on the timing. It was not favorable to the Patriots.

They didn't present a range on the temperature but I don't understand how that would have addressed the gap. I've looked at the weather on the field that night and their outside temperature estimates are fair and reasonable. The locker room temp doesn't seem to matter that much given it was the same and the gap.

The biggest assumptions I see are the starting pressures in the footballs after Anderson approved them. I'm a little skeptical given the one sided nature of the report but overall it's hard to say I think he's lying or mistaken.
 
The discussions about weather effects on pressure have been filled with half-informed idiocy since the beginning of this, and a whole shitload of "three blind men and the elephant" type conclusions from people who know just enough to be convincing while still being wrong. 
 
Rather than contribute to the noise with my own analysis, I will simply point out one glaring hole in the Exponent models/assumptions: they don't specify or account for any difference between wet-bulb vs dry-bulb temperature. 
 
Take off your shoes, and pour some water on one of your socks. Which foot feels colder? The evaporative cooling effect of the wet sock will accelerate the rate of heat-transfer between your wet foot and air, relative to the dry foot and the air. This is not just a perceptual difference: if you measure air temperature using two thermometers, one with a "dry" sensing bulb, and the other with a wet sock placed over the sensing bulb, you will get two different temperatures, possibly significantly different. See Wikipedia or some such for details, but this is an absolutely basic factor in things like HVAC engineering (and exactly the kind of thing that is commonly overlooked by scientists or researchers working in academia or the like). 
 
So using the outside air temperature as reported by the weatherman or whatever is not the correct way to model the surface temperature of a wet football, nor the effects of heat-energy on air-pressure inside the football. 
 
But more to the point, as someone said up-thread, the science procedurals really don't matter, because of the circular foundations of the conclusions: The report cites the Exponent analysis as the basis for its conclusions, while the Exponent analysis cites Wells as the source for the input assumptions. In other words, the report is saying, "Our conclusions are correct, if our assumptions are correct."
 
This is not independent, it's not objective, and it's not how you do science. It wouldn't even pass a basic engineering review. This is a (very good) example of advocacy. They are making an argument, not trying to objectively determine facts. 
 
Most especially, "reasonable assumptions" are not proof, nor even evidence. Since we are posting on a Red Sox message board, it would be reasonable for you to assume that I am a Red Sox fan, and that I therefore watched that game last night, and following that, that I was probably awake until at least about 10pm, since that's about when the game ended. That's a perfectly-reasonable scenario, based on perfectly-reasonable starting assumptions. But it's not even remotely close to "proof" that I was awake at 10pm. The fact that the assumptions are "reasonable" does not disprove the reality that I actually went to bed about 9pm, because I had an early appointment this morning. 
 
The sciencey-sounding stuff in the report is making a reasonable-sounding case, and presenting a reasonable-sounding narrative. But it's neither objective nor independent, and from an engineering perspective, the methodology and assumptions have significant flaws. The conclusions may be right or may be wrong, but they are not proved by the barrage of technical-sounding graphs and charts and numbers supplied in the appendix.
 
This is the engineering equivalent of a sales presentation, or better yet, a grand-jury hearing. Only the prosecutor gets to speak, only one side is presented, and no cross-examination is allowed. It is very easy to present a convincing and reasonable-sounding argument, when there is no opportunity for rebuttal. In a trial court, the Patriots would have the opportunity to present their side, to call their own experts, to question the technical-sounding sand thrown up in the air. In a scientific paper, peer-review would have (should have?) caught the sloppiness and circular reasoning of the models. In an engineering study of any importance, the client's own review engineers would have sent this back as unacceptable, or at best, as incomplete. 
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
27,091
Newton
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Wow, Tom E. Curran is PISSED OFF.
 
That's because Tom E. Curran is RIGHT.
 
Since we're all contemplating various conspiracy theories, here's mine: Goodell signaled to the Pats that the punishment was going to be light only to decide that he's going to stick it to Tom once Kraft put out his cry uncle statement.
 
The pine tar incident is exactly how I put this to my George Brett-loving brother-in-law three months ago.
 

dcmissle

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Aug 4, 2005
28,269
Nick Kaufman said:
This whole scandal needs a "have you no decency" moment from someone in a higher place, only this time it should be "have you gone crazy? We are talking about  0.5 psi!".
This is where kicking this into next week could actually help, unless they are prepared to impose sane discipline tomorrow, which seems doubtful.

Time helps sensible people rally.

There is only one way I can see Goodell losing his job in the forseeable future -- he imposes a very lengthy suspension on Brady, and miraculously it sticks.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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Feb 22, 2004
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simplyeric said:
Still trying to catch up here, but I think Brady should call a press conference, and then open with some "prepared remarks" wherein he reads all of the infractions for each team, starting with the Colts and Seahawks, during his career.  Just sit there and list them all off.  PED's, tampering, on-field infractions, salary cap issues, bounties, piped-in noise, etc.   And possibly a list of infractions that were somehow not addressed by the NFL (Colt's piped in crowd noise, if I recall).
 
Not even outside-the-NFL stuff like abuse and other crimes.  
 
He should read every single one of them.
 
And then he should name this ball issue, and say "I'm very sorry that I like my footballs on the low end of the spectrum.  I'm sorry that my preference may or may not have led some good Patriots employees to make some mistakes.  I do not feel that the integrity of the game was remotely affected, and in the future we will provide extreme measures of transparency for our game-day activities.  Now...please don't ask stupid questions...go ahead..."
 
 
The closest we ever came to something like this was a nothing PGA Tour tournament a few years ago. Some middling pro returning after a drunk driving incident and some Tour-mandated treatment was interviewed after his round by one of the usual Tour faces and was asked a question about it all. He responded that if he was going to be hassled he wanted to discuss more serious drug problems on tour in detail. An awkward silence for a second or two and they moved on to talking about his play that day.