I can't seem to shake that nagging "this-continues-to-go-perfectly-with-Berman-pounding-NFL-but-only-because-he-knows-he-can't-rule-against-them-despite-desperately-wanting-to" feeling...
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
It probably refers to nobody and is wholly made up. Goodell and his cronies right now have such little credibility that there's no reason to believe anything that they say has any element of truth to it. If Goodell told me it was raining outside and ten seconds later somebody asked me what the weather was, I'd respond that I had no idea.
Remember the saying "bad cases make for bad law".OnWisc said:
This is the perfect example. Berman wants it out of his court, and he doesn't want to put a ruling in the sand on a decidedly bad case if he can avoid it. Thus "settles this thing, settingly yours, judge settle"
Dan Wetzel @DanWetzel 1m1 minute ago
Tweets don't do it justice but at one point Judge Berman asked Kessler to read positive Brady testimony into the record. Just one example.
Tweets don't do it justice but at one point Judge Berman asked Kessler to read positive Brady testimony into the record. Just one example.
edmunddantes said:
I wonder if this is Berman poking around at what consideration of the law of the shop means for the NFL, as per their brief.
It seems like a better answer from Nash would have invoked such with respect to the sound judgment.
I wonder if the hammering on making Pash unavailable is setting groundwork for potential holes in basic fairness. I can't decide if i should be optimistic because of the beating Nash is taking, or incredibly concerned with it.The Big Red Kahuna said:
Stephen BrownVerified account@PPVSRB
Kessler: "No one in the NFL knew anything about the ideal gas law, which is surprising because I think I studied that in 9th grade."
Kessler: "No one in the NFL knew anything about the ideal gas law, which is surprising because I think I studied that in 9th grade."
The Big Red Kahuna said:
On the plus side, we're rapidly approaching a situation where "Berman upholds suspension but totally bashes the NFL while doing so" is now the worst-case scenario. That's better than where many of us thought we'd be by now.
This is fascinating stuff. Seems like Berman is not just poking holes in the NFL's case he is poking craters in it.There is no Rev said:
AR, my first comment and follow-up were directed only to how Berman might perceive the Brady (would do a game with no admission) and the NFL (need an admission) divide, if he were to hear about it -- in chambers or otherwise. As to the NFL's PR angle, you may well be right. I indeed agree that most in the public would perceive any concession by Tom as an admission....Though I'm hopeful that Tom and his side could message and educate over time, but that may well be naïve on my part.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 5m5 minutes ago
He called Brady and the NFLPA simply a "disappointed grievant."
He called Brady and the NFLPA simply a "disappointed grievant."
Adam Schefter@AdamSchefter
If Judge Berman was critical of NFL last week, he was even more critical today. Questions of fundamental fairness and evident impartiality. 11mhttps://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/634039709115809793
If Judge Berman was critical of NFL last week, he was even more critical today. Questions of fundamental fairness and evident impartiality. 11mhttps://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/634039709115809793
RedOctober3829 said:
Maybe. But I'm not resolved as to what this means without a labor lawyer responding to my question in the LEGAL thread about what criteria or approach would use in determining if an arbitrator properly considered the law of the shop.
I think we all understand the deference issue. But when I went digging into the cases last night, I was actually surprised that what I had thought would be a bs argument by the league that the arbitrator also gets great deference in deciding the meaning of arbitral precedent and their application turned out to have merit in the cases cited.
On the other hand, the NFL has lost on notice before. On the third hand ( :c070: ) the League attempted to address that in their Award this time.
It reads to me like Berman is trying to make the NFL realize that at this point he considers their intransigence to be irrational based on the hearings so far.
The 8/31 date is his way of saying I will give you two weeks to come to your senses, stop wasting everyone's time.
The 8/31 date is his way of saying I will give you two weeks to come to your senses, stop wasting everyone's time.
TheoShmeo said:
I understand that was in your initial comment. I should have been clearer in responding, because my point was/is that I don't think the NFL cares much about Berman at this point and that everything they say or leak is for public consumption. (Could they be more openly contemptuous of Berman's desire for a settlement?)
Anyway, just wanted to make sure that I was clear.
That Berman focused on the "generally aware" finding in the Wells Report and that there is nothing in the Wells Report to support the heightened degree of knowledge and participation by Brady in Goodell's ruling strikes me hugely positive.
I think that's a clear indication that RG is making stuff up as he goes along, and it's right at the core of Tom's culpability.
That has been one of the NFL's biggest problems since the Goodell ruling came out and -- with all richly deserved caveats about settlement conferences, including the fact that the Judge was saying things in order to coax the parties toward a settlement -- I am very encouraged that he is focusing so much on that aspect.
I think that's a clear indication that RG is making stuff up as he goes along, and it's right at the core of Tom's culpability.
That has been one of the NFL's biggest problems since the Goodell ruling came out and -- with all richly deserved caveats about settlement conferences, including the fact that the Judge was saying things in order to coax the parties toward a settlement -- I am very encouraged that he is focusing so much on that aspect.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 56s56 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Berman: "I don't understand the thinking to not allow Mr. Pash as a witness. Who else but Pash had the opportunity to edit the Wells Report?
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 16s16 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Berman: The NFL "cannot just conclude they cannot have a witness bc testimony would be cumulative."
Berman: "I don't understand the thinking to not allow Mr. Pash as a witness. Who else but Pash had the opportunity to edit the Wells Report?
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 16s16 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Berman: The NFL "cannot just conclude they cannot have a witness bc testimony would be cumulative."
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 16s16 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Berman: "I believe some arbitration awards have been vacated" because a witness was not allowed to be called without explanation.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 41s
42 seconds agoManhattan, NY
I thought that was Berman's most striking line. Seemed he'd been thinking about it.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 31s31 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Berman: "There are some basic procedures of fairness that have to be followed.... You got to let someone make their case."
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 26s26 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Nash called Pash "not relevant." Called the issue a "red herring" and said Brady team opted not to seek his testimony when it had 2nd chance
Berman: "I believe some arbitration awards have been vacated" because a witness was not allowed to be called without explanation.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 41s
42 seconds agoManhattan, NY
I thought that was Berman's most striking line. Seemed he'd been thinking about it.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 31s31 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Berman: "There are some basic procedures of fairness that have to be followed.... You got to let someone make their case."
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 26s26 seconds agoManhattan, NY
Nash called Pash "not relevant." Called the issue a "red herring" and said Brady team opted not to seek his testimony when it had 2nd chance
The Big Red Kahuna said:
I think this is exactly right. The best Brady can hope for is a reduced penalty by way of a settlement because Berman can't vacate it even though he thinks the NFL is completely wrong.
soxhop411 said:
I was just about to post this...Gives me hope that he's telling the NFL to get their heads out of their asses
glennhoffmania said:
I have no idea where this train of thought that "Berman can't vacate it even though he knows it's wrong, so he's pushing settlement" comes from.
He can absolutely vacate the suspension.
Glen, that's an awfully strong statement. Your position is that there is no set of facts upon which Berman could vacate the award under the CBA? As Berman seems to have said today, Judges have vacated arbitration awards before (under the CBA and otherwise). I don't think I have read anyone as strongly and clearly argued that Brady had no chance in hell in front of Berman. If that's what you think, I would appreciate reading why you believe that and whether it is as strong as I am inferring.
Well, the courts would surely uphold it, and every NFL case ends up in court anyways, so what's the problem?PedroKsBambino said:
I think that is exactly what Berman is doing. He can vacate it because the rules of shop and fundamental fairness/impartially were clearly violated but if he vacates the ruling or if he doesn't it will be appealed to a higher court. As such he is looking to put a stake through the heart of the case and end this completely unnecessary waste of tax payer money.
Stephen Brown @PPVSRB 3m3 minutes agoManhattan, NY
My impression: Berman tipped his hand a bit to NFL in an effort to make the sides settle.
My impression: Berman tipped his hand a bit to NFL in an effort to make the sides settle.
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 25s25 seconds ago
Berman threw out a flare re Pash not testifying: "some arbitration awards have been vacated" when witness not not allowed to be called.
Berman threw out a flare re Pash not testifying: "some arbitration awards have been vacated" when witness not not allowed to be called.
Michael McCann @McCannSportsLaw 24m24 minutes ago
It sure seems Judge Berman is troubled by how the NFL disciplined Tom Brady. Key word: "how." Goes to process and underlying legal question.
It sure seems Judge Berman is troubled by how the NFL disciplined Tom Brady. Key word: "how." Goes to process and underlying legal question.
Coming out of this latest hearing, unless Berman is playing the most ardent Devil's Advocate I can possibly imagine, the NFL has to be expecting a loss if this goes to a judgment, right? I mean, the discussion the entire day was pretty much slanted at the the NFL - pretty clear that Berman at least thinks the NFL needs to move a lot further to the middle in a settlement than Brady/NFLPA based on the line of questioning.
Is it possible the NFL is actually okay with getting pilloried if/when a judgment against them is ruled? I cannot think of a worse outcome than that for the last 8 months of nonsense. It would effectively spell the end of Goodell. At least if they agree to a settlement of a nominal fine for Brady, they can say they are putting this behind in the interest of the league moving on to more important things. Like, you know, matters that actually impact the game.
Is it possible the NFL is actually okay with getting pilloried if/when a judgment against them is ruled? I cannot think of a worse outcome than that for the last 8 months of nonsense. It would effectively spell the end of Goodell. At least if they agree to a settlement of a nominal fine for Brady, they can say they are putting this behind in the interest of the league moving on to more important things. Like, you know, matters that actually impact the game.
Red herring? RED HERRING??? YOUR ENTIRE INVESTIGATION AND CASE RELIES ON RED F'N HERRINGS!!!
I also think Kessler and team are smart enough that they've been telling Tom "Hey, this looks great. He's hammering them, but there is still a huge non-zero chance we end up on the wrong side of this. Where are you on 1 game? Where are you on 2 games? What's our sticking point? Cooperation only penalty? If we can get that in settlement are you happy?"
Thus we hear of the leaks of Brady/NFLPA saying "hey we'll take 1 game. Non-cooperation"
And I think the NFLPA has probably been very consistent on "here's where we are willing to move, but here is our reasonable non-starter." And Berman has been unable to get the NFL to move off of what he thinks is an unreasonable non-starter of "guilt admission/accept Wells report".
Thus, he's pounding them in the courtroom in hopes of they think they might lose, and they run to accept the 1 game.
Downside, it may embolden Brady enough to push for no-settlement, but Judge might frown on Brady/NFLPA moving the goalposts after they get the 1 game/non-cooperation penalty thus jeopardizing ruling.
Thus we hear of the leaks of Brady/NFLPA saying "hey we'll take 1 game. Non-cooperation"
And I think the NFLPA has probably been very consistent on "here's where we are willing to move, but here is our reasonable non-starter." And Berman has been unable to get the NFL to move off of what he thinks is an unreasonable non-starter of "guilt admission/accept Wells report".
Thus, he's pounding them in the courtroom in hopes of they think they might lose, and they run to accept the 1 game.
Downside, it may embolden Brady enough to push for no-settlement, but Judge might frown on Brady/NFLPA moving the goalposts after they get the 1 game/non-cooperation penalty thus jeopardizing ruling.
RedOctober3829 said:
Fantastic, I said that before about the NFL donning the "Clothes of Legitimacy" whenever it suits them.
We obviously haven't seen all the judge's comments, but I've yet to see one critical of Kessler, Brady, or the NFLPA's position.
He hammered the NFL every way possible today. From the report, to the facts, to the process, to the science, to the hearing. Problems all the way through. I don't see him upholding the award based on the arbitrators discretion or powers under the CBA. He sent a message today. If I'm Brady, I back off my 1 game offer (if it ever existed) and go full Corleone.
Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin is a not so subtle reference. Love this guy. Need a Berman jersey.
He hammered the NFL every way possible today. From the report, to the facts, to the process, to the science, to the hearing. Problems all the way through. I don't see him upholding the award based on the arbitrators discretion or powers under the CBA. He sent a message today. If I'm Brady, I back off my 1 game offer (if it ever existed) and go full Corleone.
Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin is a not so subtle reference. Love this guy. Need a Berman jersey.
