#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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joe dokes

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That sounds nice. But, do you think a league office that already has a pretty clear anti-Patriots bias would take well to being treated like that? The Patriots have enough enemies as it is. It's better to try to keep Rog in your pocket than as your enemy. As we've seen, he'll throw penalties around whether they make sense or not and the team has little recourse other than going full Al Davis, which we've seen Bob isn't prepared to do. And I don't know about the zero negative consequences. I'd imagine they'd see their name on fewer and fewer committees (not sure how that works, but if the league is in charge of electing committee members, I'd think they'd start to take away that influence if the Pats started going rogue). 
 
The owners likely wouldn't be able to do much if the Pats went this direction, I just don't know how sound of a business decision it would be. 
 
 
I'd be satisfied if, when Goodell hands Kraft the Lombardi Trophy after SB 50, Kraft says, "Thank you.  Now Bill and Tommy and I are going to go down on the field and let the team share this trophy they earned" and leaves Nantz and Goodell standing by themselves on the podium holding each other's junk.
 

TheoShmeo

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Elcab, like a lot of things, it's not binary (stealing a bit from Shelterdog above).
 
Before this whole stupid sideshow, I would have thought that Kraft's consistent support of Goodell would have mattered more.  Now maybe he had to bend the other way, or thought he had to, but damn, it seems like NONE of Kraft's equity with Goodell has meant jack.  Goodell has gone uber douche bag at every turn.  As a result, I am hard put to understand how things could be made much worse.  When it mattered the most, the cozy relationship between the two helped the Pats not one bit. 
 
Or so it seems.  I mean, yeah, maybe Goodell would answer that he could have punished even more severely.  But that lurches uncomfortably into Ben Volin/Stephen A Smith level idiocy, a path I am unwilling to travel.  And as it is, the penalty seems horribly out of whack with the crime, even if the crime could be shown to have occurred without stitching together a series of e-mails of Jastremski and McNally.
 
In short, I don't see Roger in Kraft's pocket in any respect right now.
 
I also think that Kraft is already somewhat down the path of a kind of jihad with Goodell.  The context report, the publishing of the e-mails and his comments about being wrong to put his trust in the league suggest that the kid gloves are off and will stay there for a while.  Sure, Kraft could play nice later, especially if Berman does the right thing, but it sure looks like Kraft has resigned himself to being on the outs with the Sheriff.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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There might have been a chance of true backlash against RG if the facts came out before people succumbed to deflation fatigue and stopped caring about what is nowhere near a key issue for the league or its fans. Compared to bounty and the domestic violence space, this is a vacation for Rog. 
 
All I really ask at this point is that Bob Kraft never be caught on camera insulting Patriots fans by complimenting that idiot ever again beyond vague "respect the office" type stuff. And hopefully the next time something like this happens to a different team he'll be the anonymous anti-Goodell ownership source we were desperately seeking through this whole thing.
 

dcmissle

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I don't want Papa Kraft fencing with RG or anyone in the League office. He is over his head. The only shocking aspect of this to me is how easily he was rolled.

From what I hear, I don't want Jon doing it either. Like Sonny, he's probably meeting his end at a toll plaza.

Just try to avoid future trouble as best you can, then bide your time. When RG needs you down the line, let him drown.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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I think the funniest thing in all of this, and something I've heard nobody phrase in this way, is that this "advantage" is replicated by it being 5 degrees colder outside.
 
According to this logic: every time the NFL gives the Patriots a night game, they're giving the Patriots an unfair advantage
 

Don Buddin's GS

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Once this is over, or a decision has been rendered (hopefully in TB's favor), wouldn't it be nice if Kraft (Jonathan in particular, but Robert too) took every chance to tell Goodell to fuck off, pleasantly, on matters related to the NFL.  i.e.  Roger will survive this mess regardless of the decision on Brady, but the Krafts DO NOT have to peacefully co-exist with Goodell going forward.  They can continue to wield influence, run committee's to help the game, etc.  The other owners can see that they are committed to the league and its revenue streams, but they can also let Roger know in no uncertain terms that he's dead to them.
 
I doubt they'd do it, but they should.  It would have virtually zero negative consequences to them.  If another owner (or owners) told the Krafts "come on Bob/jonathan, lighten up a little."  The response should be: "we are 100% dedicated to the league, its success etc., but Roger Goodell can go fuck himself."   Nothing the other owners would do IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfHJDLoGInM
 

Jimbodandy

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dcmissle said:
I don't want Papa Kraft fencing with RG or anyone in the League office. He is over his head. The only shocking aspect of this to me is how easily he was rolled.

From what I hear, I don't want Jon doing it either. Like Sonny, he's probably meeting his end at a toll plaza.

Just try to avoid future trouble as best you can, then bide your time. When RG needs you down the line, let him drown.
 
Revenge is best served cold.  Going Al Davis never really helped Al Davis.  Frankly, I think that anyone advocating a scorched earth campaign that even hints that our owner start acting like that maniac should have their head examined.
 

dcmissle

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Jimbodandy said:
 
Revenge is best served cold.  Going Al Davis never really helped Al Davis.  Frankly, I think that anyone advocating a scorched earth campaign that even hints that our owner start acting like that maniac should have their head examined.
Well it helped Al to the tune of pocketing a lot of League money and being able to move his franchise. Those battles you fight in court; these you do not.
 

Bleedred

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dcmissle said:
I don't want Papa Kraft fencing with RG or anyone in the League office. He is over his head. The only shocking aspect of this to me is how easily he was rolled.

From what I hear, I don't want Jon doing it either. Like Sonny, he's probably meeting his end at a toll plaza.

Just try to avoid future trouble as best you can, then bide your time. When RG needs you down the line, let him drown.
This probably makes the most sense.  Nevertheless, if Kraft remains totally solicitous of his fellow owners and continues to represent the NFL on TV committees, etc. with his historical effectiveness, then the cold shoulder to Goodell shouldn't mean a thing.  As Theo noted above, and if this fiasco of a clusterfuck shows anything, there is no value to having a "close" relationship to Goodell (as reported by everyone breathlessly that Goodell was Kraft's boy), at least insofar as anyone thinks it would cause him to be a rational actor, let alone curry favor with an owner who supposedly saved his ass after the Rice embarrassment.
 

Harry Hooper

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ElcaballitoMVP said:
 
That sounds nice. But, do you think a league office that already has a pretty clear anti-Patriots bias would take well to being treated like that? The Patriots have enough enemies as it is. It's better to try to keep Rog in your pocket than as your enemy. As we've seen, he'll throw penalties around whether they make sense or not and the team has little recourse other than going full Al Davis, which we've seen Bob isn't prepared to do. And I don't know about the zero negative consequences. I'd imagine they'd see their name on fewer and fewer committees (not sure how that works, but if the league is in charge of electing committee members, I'd think they'd start to take away that influence if the Pats started going rogue). 
 
The owners likely wouldn't be able to do much if the Pats went this direction, I just don't know how sound of a business decision it would be. 
 
I disagree with your bolded above. Once the NFL and AL Davis settled into opposing camps, the NFL had to make very sure it had all its ducks in a row any time it was dealing with a dispute with the Raiders. Otherwise, it was too easy to label anything they did as harassment of a team/owner they didn't like. In other words, becoming the "Pariah Pats" would limit the amount of crap the NFL could just make up as Glampers & Co. would know a full battle was brewing on every dispute. 
 
Having said that, Kraft puts too much stock in the regard of his billionaire brethren to pursue this course.
 

Reverend

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gammoseditor said:
It is infuriating that some major media outlets are letting the NFL get away with a defense that says the facts don't matter legally the judge doesn't have the right to over rule arbitration. Some prominent media outlet should be making the point that even if technically and legally true, the NFL should stand behind the facts in the case, and if they can't they should not have the right to punish Brady with a suspension. The facts should matter.
 
Eh, this isn't really correct. The legal issue is divorced from the facts of the case as a matter of law, not of the NFL's choosing. Arguing the facts of the case instead of the authority under the CBA would basically be legal malpractice. It might seem weird, but that's the way it is.
 
 
dcmissle said:
I don't want Papa Kraft fencing with RG or anyone in the League office. He is over his head. The only shocking aspect of this to me is how easily he was rolled.

From what I hear, I don't want Jon doing it either. Like Sonny, he's probably meeting his end at a toll plaza.

Just try to avoid future trouble as best you can, then bide your time. When RG needs you down the line, let him drown.
 
Jimbodandy said:
Revenge is best served cold.  Going Al Davis never really helped Al Davis.  Frankly, I think that anyone advocating a scorched earth campaign that even hints that our owner start acting like that maniac should have their head examined.
 
So, in other words, ignore the bs and:
 

Otis Foster

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Harry Hooper said:
 
I disagree with your bolded above. Once the NFL and AL Davis settled into opposing camps, the NFL had to make very sure it had all its ducks in a row any time it was dealing with a dispute with the Raiders. Otherwise, it was too easy to label anything they did as harassment of a team/owner they didn't like. In other words, becoming the "Pariah Pats" would limit the amount of crap the NFL could just make up as Glampers & Co. would know a full battle was brewing on every dispute. 
 
Having said that, Kraft puts too much stock in the regard of his billionaire brethren to pursue this course.
 
 
The underscored.
 
I have it on decent authority that Bobby has become a changed man since the SB run began. He's taken with the limelight, the ball-washing, his membership in the Fat Cat Society and has no real interest in forfeiting his lifetime pass to that crowd.
 
Davis didn't give a f/f. Kraft does.
 
He'll get payback, but it won't be a front-page declaration of nuclear war.
 

Seabass

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We'll be in the dark until the hearing is wrapped tomorrow:
 
https://twitter.com/MaxLaw360/status/633679785282150404
 

Joe D Reid

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I haven't practiced in the SDNY for a few years now, but back when I was there you had to surrender your cell phone at security to even get in the building. 
 

dcmissle

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Well done Judge, again. We're down for serious business. He has no desire to play Lance Ito or preside over a clown show.

God bless federal court restrictions. They can be very helpful.

Of course, this will probably upset people who thought reporters were well within their rights to trail AH jurors to their homes during deliberations
 

glennhoffmania

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Joe D Reid said:
I haven't practiced in the SDNY for a few years now, but back when I was there you had to surrender your cell phone at security to even get in the building. 
 
This is the rule for jurors.  I don't know if it applies to lawyers.
 

bowiac

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glennhoffmania said:
This is the rule for jurors.  I don't know if it applies to lawyers.
It's just a question of if you're admitted in the Southern District. 
 

Super Nomario

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Otis Foster said:
I have it on decent authority that Bobby has become a changed man since the SB run began. He's taken with the limelight, the ball-washing, his membership in the Fat Cat Society and has no real interest in forfeiting his lifetime pass to that crowd.
Why should he want to forfeit his lifetime pass to that crowd? Per Forbes, Kraft's net worth is $4.3 B and $2.6 of that is the Patriots. He'd be an idiot to jeopardize that. You can talk about "limelight," "ball-washing," or the "Fat Cat Society" all you want, but to me it's just common sense.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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TheoShmeo said:
Elcab, like a lot of things, it's not binary (stealing a bit from Shelterdog above).
 
Before this whole stupid sideshow, I would have thought that Kraft's consistent support of Goodell would have mattered more.  Now maybe he had to bend the other way, or thought he had to, but damn, it seems like NONE of Kraft's equity with Goodell has meant jack.  Goodell has gone uber douche bag at every turn.  As a result, I am hard put to understand how things could be made much worse.  When it mattered the most, the cozy relationship between the two helped the Pats not one bit. 
 
Or so it seems.  I mean, yeah, maybe Goodell would answer that he could have punished even more severely.  But that lurches uncomfortably into Ben Volin/Stephen A Smith level idiocy, a path I am unwilling to travel.  And as it is, the penalty seems horribly out of whack with the crime, even if the crime could be shown to have occurred without stitching together a series of e-mails of Jastremski and McNally.
 
In short, I don't see Roger in Kraft's pocket in any respect right now.
 
I also think that Kraft is already somewhat down the path of a kind of jihad with Goodell.  The context report, the publishing of the e-mails and his comments about being wrong to put his trust in the league suggest that the kid gloves are off and will stay there for a while.  Sure, Kraft could play nice later, especially if Berman does the right thing, but it sure looks like Kraft has resigned himself to being on the outs with the Sheriff.
 
I completely agree with you. Roger isn't in Kraft's pocket. In fact, that whole story line probably hurt the Pats/Brady more than it helped. I was just trying to say that going full-on "F Goodell" isn't going to make that relationship any better and that the league may push back by trying to limit the influence Kraft has. I don't know if they have control over who is on certain committees, but if they did, would it be a surprise to anyone to see the Patriots being left out? Kraft doesn't have to support Goodell any further, and if he does I'll be disappointed. Instead of saying "keep him in your pocket instead of your enemy" I should have said "keep him at bay instead of openly attacking him and his authority". 
 

Otis Foster

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Super Nomario said:
Why should he want to forfeit his lifetime pass to that crowd? Per Forbes, Kraft's net worth is $4.3 B and $2.6 of that is the Patriots. He'd be an idiot to jeopardize that. You can talk about "limelight," "ball-washing," or the "Fat Cat Society" all you want, but to me it's just common sense.
 
I doubt he could jeopardize his very substantial net worth by telling Rog to screw off. The franchise is worth what it's worth, and the fact that Jerry Jones is ignoring Kraft won't have a real impact on that.
 
His membership in the FCC is another matter. If he does anything that further jeopardizes what passes for tranquility, he may get frozen out.
 
Anyway, it's not my money and he can set his own priorities, but I think it has to do as much with status as threats to the NEP franchise.
 

Shelterdog

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Super Nomario said:
Why should he want to forfeit his lifetime pass to that crowd? Per Forbes, Kraft's net worth is $4.3 B and $2.6 of that is the Patriots. He'd be an idiot to jeopardize that. You can talk about "limelight," "ball-washing," or the "Fat Cat Society" all you want, but to me it's just common sense.
 
Seriously who can blame Kraft the businessman from going on a rampage against the NFL and forego any say he might have in what happens regarding an LA franchise, or the next CBA, naming the next commissioner when the time may come, or any other league matters that might impact the value of his 2 billion property.
 

Van Everyman

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Ha, those optics almost seem better if Berman's desire for both parties to be seriously engaged in settlement talks is true. Showing up for the hearing alone would be show.
 

simplyeric

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Seabass177 said:
We'll be in the dark until the hearing is wrapped tomorrow:
 
https://twitter.com/MaxLaw360/status/633679785282150404
 
 
Brady can't bring his phone?  I don't like that... we all know what happened last time Brady didn't have his phone.
 

Van Everyman

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dcmissle said:
I don't want Papa Kraft fencing with RG or anyone in the League office. He is over his head. The only shocking aspect of this to me is how easily he was rolled.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Kraft being surprised that his relationship with the Commissioner did not afford him some measure of courtesy during this whole ordeal only seems weak if you think he had some plausible reason to doubt it beforehand. To me, this is no different than calling the PA weak for continuing to grant Goodell the authority to serve as arbitrator in the last CBA.

Hindsight is 20/20. The fact is, in both instances, there was little indication that Goodell would abuse his authority so badly. And in the case of Deflategate, it's still not entirely clear why he chose this particular hill—and this particular player—to die on.
 

Rusty13

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Corsi said:
 
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  39s39 seconds ago
Per source, with settlement talks at a standstill, the judge informed Patriots QB Tom Brady there's no need for him to be there tomorrow.
 
Probably a good sign...
 
 
I think this just means that the entire hearing will consist of oral advocacy by the attorneys.  It's not like a criminal case where a party's presence is usually required.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Rusty13 said:
 
I think this just means that the entire hearing will consist of oral advocacy by the attorneys.  It's not like a criminal case where a party's presence is usually required.
 
Likely true---small chance that Goodell or Pash will be told to be there because Berman wants them to understand how little he thinks of their case, as a another way to push them to move.   I don't expect that to happen, just noting that we do not yet have info that Berman is treating both principals similarly and there are reasons he might not.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Even the judge values time spent on the field. "Go on Tom, catch up with your team and practice tomorrow, that's more important than listening to these assholes."
 
At least that's what I hope Berman said.
 

OnWisc

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Far more important than whether Kraft goes scorched earth on Goodell is that he finally understands the man's nature and never lets his guard down again.

Goodell is a snake. He has no integrity. He'll state as fact whatever serves him best without any regard for whether it's true. He'll take whatever actions he views as being in his own best interests without regard for any relationships. Much of this involves doing the owners' collective bidding- Kraft included- as they sign the checks, but hopefully Kraft now sees that the only time Goodell's going to act in anyone else's interests is when they just happened to be aligned with his own. Once that's no longer the case, there's nothing in Goodell's nature that's going to allow any nebulous idea like trust, friendship or integrity to impact his propensity to do what's best for Roger.

If Kraft decides to lay down arms once again after this issue is resolved, great. But he cannot make the mistake of assuming that doing so will in any way placate Roger or warrant any consideration in the future. Kraft should consider what he thinks Goodell would do if Kraft very publicly went Al Davis, and then assume Roger's doing that anyway.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Van Everyman said:
Ha, those optics almost seem better if Berman's desire for both parties to be seriously engaged in settlement talks is true. Showing up for the hearing alone would be show.
How long before NFL argues that Brady wasn't even willing to show up for the hearing?
 

dcmissle

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Corsi said:
<p><span style="color:rgb(41,47,51);"><span style='font-family: Helvetica Neue'>
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  39s39
link to tweet seconds ago
Per source, with settlement talks at a standstill, the judge informed Patriots QB Tom Brady there's no need for him to be there tomorrow.

 

Probably a good sign...
Judge probably is a considerate person who does not waste another person's time. Absent a sudden change of heart or last-minute cave, we probably on a rocket sled to a ruling.
 

Bleedred

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What Gut Punch is coming?    The 2 main threads related to DG have been optimistic the last 30 days, given how we all believe that the NFL and RG have been exposed as lying, partial grudge holders.   It's no surprise to me that the most exculpatory evidence of TB has come once the case got before a reasoned, impartial jurist (Judge Berman) who has no time for bullshit (from either side).   Nevertheless, I cannot help but think that another shoe is going to drop where the judge upholds the 4 game suspension because the CBA and the federal labor statute ties his hands.  This is just me emoting, but it's a nagging feeling.  The one difference from all the other times when we thought reason would win out is that, as noted, the case is before a truly reasonable and impartial third party with years of experience on the federal bench.  I hope that makes the difference.
 
edits:  English
 

HomeBrew1901

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Bleedred said:
What Gut Punch is coming?    The 2 main threads related to DG have been optimistic the last 30 days, given how we all believe that the NFL and RG have been exposed as lying, partial grudge holders.   It's no surprise to me that the most exculpatory evidence of TB has come once the case got before a reasoned, impartial jurist (Judge Berman) who has no time for bullshit (from either side).   Nevertheless, I cannot help but think that another shoe is going to drop where the judge upholds the 4 game suspension because the CBA and the federal labor statute ties his hands.  This is just me emoting, but it's a nagging feeling.  The one difference then all the past times is, as noted, the case is before a truly reasonable and impartial third party with years of experience on the federal bench.  I hope that makes the difference.
My concern is Article 46.  Yes Mr. Brady it sucks, but blame your union for allowing Goodell to have all the power.
 

dcmissle

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HomeBrew1901 said:
My concern is Article 46.  Yes Mr. Brady it sucks, but blame your union for allowing Goodell to have all the power.
But that is just a loss, a loss that would leave us no worse off than we were weeks ago. Arguably, we would be slightly better off because this process has been exposed for what it is.

Which is why the arguments against TB fighting this have always been misguided -- or bait for trolling.

Edit. Also losing this would not be the legal equivalent of a Super Bowl helmet catch or dissipated 21 to 6 half time lead in Indy. Not even close. People really do need to reconnect with reasonable expectations as D-day draws nearer.
 

Peak Oil Can Boyd

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Florio is insisting that Brady attend regardless.  If Berman specifically told him he wasn't needed because of talks today, is that true?
 

J.McG

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I wonder how much of Berman's decision not to require Brady's attendance tomorrow had to do with avoiding a repeat of the circus that resulted in the wake of last week's hearing (i.e. the live-tweeting of the proceedings, the huge crowds of media/fans inside & outside the courthouse, the mocking of the courtroom sketch artist, etc).
 
I'd like to think Brady would heed his lawyers' advice if they thought it was important for him to be there, or if they thought Berman may draw a material inference one way or the other based on Brady's attendance. Based on the numerous descriptions I've seen of him, Berman seems like a pretty straight-shooter, so if he told Brady "there's no need for him to be there", hopefully he meant it.
 

bowiac

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Peak Oil Can Boyd said:
Florio is insisting that Brady attend regardless.  If Berman specifically told him he wasn't needed because of talks today, is that true?
I can see the reasoning, and Florio himself last week outlined the case for why he should show up anyway.
 
I don't think it's going to matter either way though. If Brady shows, I'd assume it's because he's already in New York, so why not stay another day.
 

ObstructedView

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I had been relying on the SOSH/BBTL legal thread as my go-to source for technical analysis, but thanfully noted (and totally impartial) judicial expert Bill Polian is on it...
 
 
 
ESPN's Bill Polian said the judge in Brady's case vs. the NFL is "hoping he can push both sides to a settlement." However, Polian said, "what's important to remember is he's ruling on the procedure, not the facts of the case."
 
 

Ed Hillel

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HomeBrew1901 said:
My concern is Article 46.  Yes Mr. Brady it sucks, but blame your union for allowing Goodell to have all the power.
They did not have Goodell have "all the power," however. The very fact that they specifically bargained for other rules demonstrates as much. Fortunately for Brady, one of the very rules they bargained for is the rule he's accused of breaking.
 

soxhop411

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FOXBOROUGH, Mass. (AP) — New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell met Tuesday to discuss settling the "Deflategate" legal case but were unsuccessful, two people familiar with the case told The Associated Press.

The failure to strike a deal after about four hours of talks means a Wednesday hearing will proceed as scheduled.

The people, who spoke on condition of anonymity Tuesday because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the case, said the talks occurred away from the Manhattan federal court handling the case. The location was not disclosed
.

Lawyers are scheduled to argue Wednesday whether it was fair for the NFL to suspend Brady for four games this season after Goodell concluded he conspired to deflate footballs before a playoff game. No ruling from U.S. District Judge Richard Berman is expected.

Brady plans to be at Patriots practice in West Virginia instead, where New England is preparing with New Orleans Saints players for a preseason game Saturday night.

http://pro32.ap.org/article/ap-sources-brady-goodell-meet-deflategate-unresolved

More at the link.
 

J.McG

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Schefter was just on SportsCenter reporting Brady appears willing to accept a suspension (length not specified) on the explicit condition that the suspension be for failure to cooperate, with no admission of guilt or acceptance of Wells Report findings. NFL still insisting on an acceptance of Wells Report findings in any settlement. Also noteworthy, Goodell not expected to attend tomorrow's hearing either (NFL declined to confirm).

This is the first I've heard of Brady's willingness to accept a suspension of any length, and if true, it would appear to be a major, not to mention disappointing, concession on his part. Hoping this is more legal strategy than real negotiation, with Brady/NFLPA making an effort to appear conciliatory in front of Berman, while knowing Goodell et al. will never move off their insistence that Brady accept the Wells Report.