#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
dcmissle said:
I think you're jumping too quickly. If it turns out this is truth, it will come out eventually and be established, and the narrative will change.
This is remarkable:
Patriots counsel also requested from the outset that he be provided with the actual halftime psi measurements. That information was not provided until March 23, over two months into the investigation. It was provided then only on the condition that it not be disclosed and, particularly, that it not be disclosed to the media until the final report was issued. This condition was imposed in the face of the extensively reported misinformation about halftime football psi that the League had refused to correct. One can only speculate why it was so important for the League that the accurate halftime information be withheld from the public until it was ultimately part of a report that downplayed the science and instead relied on selective texts.
Patriots counsel also requested from the outset that he be provided with the actual halftime psi measurements. That information was not provided until March 23, over two months into the investigation. It was provided then only on the condition that it not be disclosed and, particularly, that it not be disclosed to the media until the final report was issued. This condition was imposed in the face of the extensively reported misinformation about halftime football psi that the League had refused to correct. One can only speculate why it was so important for the League that the accurate halftime information be withheld from the public until it was ultimately part of a report that downplayed the science and instead relied on selective texts.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
The second text makes it pretty clear, actually. If someone actually picks up on that, it would be great. "Deflate, and give someone that jacket." What else would that be referring to?
"Deflate, and give someone that jacket."
This is right.Shelterdog said:
At that meeting can Kraft lobby the other owners to lobby Goodell to review the Wells report, the Patriots response and re-assess his position.
That might allow Goodell a middle ground to ease the punishment after assessing more information.
And he can then throw Wells under the bus.
If they didn't say anything to give that context, everyone would key in on how they still have no explanation for that and are therefore clearly guilty.dcmissle said:
I think it sounds stupid enough to be true.
dcmissle said:
I tend to disagree, if only because the details that are coming out appear to be so devastating to the Wells Report and/or the NFL.
I would also add this; If the Pats want to put the truth out there, they have to put it all out, no matter how ridiculous part(s) of it sound. Otherwise they can be criticized for the kind of selective release of information that they are accusing the NFL of.
I mean, it does sound lame but the text about the jacket from back in November (I believe) gives it some credibility.
Thursday morning, finally, we see a rebuttal from the Patriots. This is at least a day too late, maybe two. In today's 24-hour news cycle, anything more than a day or two after the suspension is almost worthless -- everyone's opinions have already formed by now. No way will this address any of the damage done.
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12885305/new-england-patriots-offer-rebuttal-wells-report
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12885305/new-england-patriots-offer-rebuttal-wells-report
What a horrible coincidence! The very nickname given to him would be the exact thing that would bring him down!
Yeah, you and I wouldn't use deflator as a term for someone to lose weight because we don't have anything to do with footballs in our day to day life. It's not as bizarre considering what they do. When I talk about losing weight, I call it cutting. If I called myself the cutter it wouldn't be because I have a switchblade.
Ed Hillel said:
Because no one cares about facts, even if it's true. it's all about perception, and by trying to explain this away they look silly.
Had they just stuck to the PSI and sloppiness arguments this might have been considered a stronger rebuttal. But the CHBs across the country are going to jump on this explanation like a hobo on a ham sandwich, and will ignore everything else.
"Evidence was also provided that Indianapolis ball boys, in a prior season, had been seen by Jacksonville personnel with ball needles hidden under their long sleeves."
That's from the Goldberg letter. I haven't heard that one before but, if true, fuck the Colts even harder with a rusty ball needle.
That's from the Goldberg letter. I haven't heard that one before but, if true, fuck the Colts even harder with a rusty ball needle.
Ed Hillel said:
Let's say you're right.
Let's say they did use this term as it relates to weight loss.
Wouldn't they use the term "deflator" as it relates to weight loss because they spend a lot of time thinking about and actually deflating footballs?
Should not have included the deflator/weight loss in the report. Looks, is, like someone reaching badly. But, I don't think they're trying to win a general public PR war here. I think they are trying to set up the removal of Goodell with the other owners. That's their end-game. To that extent, the reaction of twitter-verse/hot sportz take machine is largely irrelevant. I think Kraft's other 31 business partners will be inclined to at least consider their entire response. would love to be fly on the wall at the meetings next week.
HowBoutDemSox said:
Yeah, that part really stood out to me. Allowing the narrative to be driven by misinformation that only could have come from the league in the first place kind of puts the lie to the whole thing.
There's a lot of noise out there, but beyond that, I would try to make this a little more simple if I were the Pats -- the crushing stuff is ignoring Anderson's best recollection and imposing a punishment so out of whack with clear violations of game-time football violations that occurred this year seem to be pretty huge.
The other part that's compelling to me is the fact that Brady was pissed about the 16 psi balls during the Jets game, which led to his obsession with pressure. If the fact of his providing the rules is corroborated, it really explains an awful lot.
SeanBerry said:
Deflating footballs is absolutely a part of their work. It's only relevant if said deflation happens after ref inspection.
Marciano490 said:
This is exactly how I analyzed it. These guys are deflating, inflating, and doing all kinds of shit to the balls as part of their routine. In the context of talking about weight loss or weight gain, it's easy to see how these knuckleheads would slip into referring to each other as "deflator" or "inflator," even though it makes no sense to anyone else.
SeanBerry said:
There's nothing wrong with deflating footballs pre-inspection and within the legal range
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
They're getting killed on national radio (at least every sports station on Sirius). It's 99% of "Don't pee on me and tell me it's raining"....all due to the Deflator nickname. They made a big mistake releasing this rebuttal all because of this one part.
Agreed. Everyone will just laugh off the whole appeal process with that.Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
BannedbyNYYFans.com said:
Yup. Big big mistake there. Just leave that out and the rebuttal might have some momentum.
Maybe, but deflating footballs prior to inspection is perfectly legal. Read the rebuttal, and you'll see what I mean.SeanBerry said:
Honestly, if the mediots want to hang their hat on this one point, and ignore EVERY OTHER FACTUAL REBUTTAL, let them. It's clear the Pats felt they were backed into a corner and had nothing to lose.
SeanBerry said:
I don't know. That's their testimony. And right now, it's the NFL that needs to establish its credibility, in my mind, not the witnesses from the Patriots. Without a suspicious drop in PSI, if you go by the measurements Walt Anderson said he made, there's really nothing here.
That is actually addressed in both the Wells report and rebuttal. They had those texts and missed them (presumably because they weren't too concerned with texts from last May). After they discovered them, they requested the 5th interview, which the Pats pushed back on. That one text is essentially worth $1M, a first and a forth, because there is no lack of cooperation if Wells didn't come back for another bite at the apple.Silverdude2167 said:
I thought something was said today that those texts were found before the first interview.RIFan said:
The finishing temperature they used was based on the observed temperature of the empty officials' locker room (72º leading to the use of a 71º-74º range), but if you use that as the starting range the math on the Colts balls' didn't work, which led them to assume that the balls were originally measured in some part of the locker room where the temperature was 67º since that made most of the math work (though not all of it as at least one physicist demonstrated). But it all changes when you assume that Anderson was using the logo gauge and the locker room temperature was constant. Because then all the math works properly in both directions and the minor discrepancy on a couple of the balls are more than accounted for by water and the imprecise measurements.Super Nomario said:
RIFan said:
B.S. The first thing that they were doing is running a search string for "deflat!" on whatever documents and texts they got. No way they didn't know they had those texts in their back pocket. That's how investigations are done. Try and box people into their testimony, and then hit them with their inconsistent prior statements, which they thought that they had. The problem is (a) they didn't get a second bite at the apple on the terms they wanted it; and (b) maybe those prior inconsistents weren't so inconsistent.
Mark Daniels @MarkDanielsPJ 42s42 seconds ago
"Why are all of Exponent’s reports, relied on in the report issued May 6, dated May 6?"
"Why are all of Exponent’s reports, relied on in the report issued May 6, dated May 6?"
So you think that tweedle dee and tweedle dum cooked up a defense of the nickname in 2014 far in advance of this situation? They anticipated the issue and to provide cover used the nickname in a text that specifically refers to a non-football use of the term. How else does one explain that text? It is clear it is non-football Related. Any use is suspicious in this context unfortunately but as ridiculous as it sounds it is plausible. 51/49 against? Sure. But plausible.dcmissle said:
Given that, there may have even been some dark "we are smarter than else" humor that played to the dual meaning of the nickname.
But one can't out and out dismiss it because it sounds silly - each one of us has a friend or two that has a stupid nickname.
Mooch said:
1. Appease the NFL, given that they thought punishment was going to be much less but this was undoubtedly going to be on the list of punishment.
2. Didn't they still steal shit out of the locker room, according to the rebuttal?
I'm curious...about this action. The thread is full of (equally) plausible ways in which they were texting knuckleheads, though no worse. If the team claims innocence in all this, why fire the two guys? It seems odd as I expected the team to support them.
Is this a solid to set them up for post-firing action against the league? Something like a defamation of character position whereby the men look for vindication after having been besmirched by the Wells report conclusions. I infer from poster comments that they are employees at will and that wrongful termination is not an angle for them. Could they enter into some legal action against the team that could be a springboard for dragging in the league. Spitballing, something like the team let them go because Wells proclaimed them guilty and the team was attempting to redress the issue....hot potato to you Mr. Goodell to substantiate the Report. NOTE: me no lawyer.
As an aside, I'm an engineer and deal with psi often. I completely buy into the case that proper application of science shows the balls were not deflated (and you can't be guilty of something that didn't happen no matter how weird the text message). It bugs me that the Report assigns significance to the gages for two reasons. One, in my world, Quality Assurance would insist on a gage that is 10X more accurate than the item being measured. That is, to report 10.XX the gage should be capable of measuring 10.XXX and round up using standard math rules. Does the league really have rocket scientist accurate gages? I suspect not...gages that were offered in this thread as possible options looked like it would be a struggle for accuracy to the closest full psi let alone tenths (.X) or hundreths (.XX). Secondly, again in my world, we use a standard tolerance of +/- 1% of full scale. Say the gages are 0-20 psig...that's +/- 0.2 psig. The two gages to each other are what, 3%-4% off? That's more like the Pep Boys cheap-o at the checkout line special. Time to ask for the speed trap "when was that last calibrated" question. Yes, these comments are geeky, nitpicky. There are far better folks to opine about the gas law and statistics, both of which speak to more crippling issues with validity of the "analysis".
Is this a solid to set them up for post-firing action against the league? Something like a defamation of character position whereby the men look for vindication after having been besmirched by the Wells report conclusions. I infer from poster comments that they are employees at will and that wrongful termination is not an angle for them. Could they enter into some legal action against the team that could be a springboard for dragging in the league. Spitballing, something like the team let them go because Wells proclaimed them guilty and the team was attempting to redress the issue....hot potato to you Mr. Goodell to substantiate the Report. NOTE: me no lawyer.
As an aside, I'm an engineer and deal with psi often. I completely buy into the case that proper application of science shows the balls were not deflated (and you can't be guilty of something that didn't happen no matter how weird the text message). It bugs me that the Report assigns significance to the gages for two reasons. One, in my world, Quality Assurance would insist on a gage that is 10X more accurate than the item being measured. That is, to report 10.XX the gage should be capable of measuring 10.XXX and round up using standard math rules. Does the league really have rocket scientist accurate gages? I suspect not...gages that were offered in this thread as possible options looked like it would be a struggle for accuracy to the closest full psi let alone tenths (.X) or hundreths (.XX). Secondly, again in my world, we use a standard tolerance of +/- 1% of full scale. Say the gages are 0-20 psig...that's +/- 0.2 psig. The two gages to each other are what, 3%-4% off? That's more like the Pep Boys cheap-o at the checkout line special. Time to ask for the speed trap "when was that last calibrated" question. Yes, these comments are geeky, nitpicky. There are far better folks to opine about the gas law and statistics, both of which speak to more crippling issues with validity of the "analysis".