Ah, did not realize that. I just checked Jaylen's upcoming contract numbers, and you're right: year 3 is 1.16 of year 1. Definitely makes some difference over deals of this length.
Derrick White, extends 4yrs/$125.9M
- Thread starter benhogan
- Start date
Thank you for that: I've been struggling to get how the cap increases would help all that much, other than a little bit of extra cash for the end of the bench, when the % based contacts were scaling with the cap increase. I didn't realize it was always based on year 1.
If he's right, that's pretty brutal.
The Celtics spent 10% less on this years team than they did the year before.
Windhorst saying that caught my attention because after the 2022 Finals, he said on ESPN that the Warriors had "bought" the title because they were so far into the tax compared to the Celtics. He seems oddly focused on discussing the Celtics' finances during NBA Finals postgames.
Wyc et al are likely to start focusing more on the cost of all this fun now that its done but if the Warriors experience is any guide, maybe they are more comfortable paying a higher bill after the parade. Before Golden State won, they were rumored to be a bit cash strapped but as we know they opened up the wallet on the follow. The Cs clearly should expect to contend for the immediate future - hopefully winning has been lucrative enough to invest a bit more. And hopefully Derrick wants to stay.
In the NBA, how much of the profits from things like "Banner 18" or "NBA Champions" hats and t-shirts and books and beer coozies go to the team vs being spread across all 30 teams?
Or post-season ticket sales and concessions?
Or post-season ticket sales and concessions?
Yeah, some of the pundits have been wondering if a player will negotiate a "% of cap" deal rather than a fixed salary. I don't know if the CBA would allow that or whether it would have to be changed to allow it but it's an interesting thought.
The last CBA included team and league licensing revenue for the first time - about $160M added to the Bball-Related Income pot. NBA Players Score as Shared Revenue Grows by $250M in New CBA - Yahoo Sports .
Where is this Windhorst comment exactly? If he said that nobody has run with it because the reporting out there has actually been that the ownership will pay for difference makers (mentioned in the context of a White extension).
People have been speculating for awhile now that the Celtics owners wouldn't go into the tax, then that they wouldn't go deeper, and so on.
Up to this point, they've been wrong every time. Doesn't mean the checkbook is infinite, but the speculation has been pretty wrong in general.
Up to this point, they've been wrong every time. Doesn't mean the checkbook is infinite, but the speculation has been pretty wrong in general.
Is there a single recent example of a team refusing to open their checkbook for worthy talent? it seems the limitation on salaries is usually that there is a lack of deserving talent, not an avoidance of luxury tax penalties.
I don't listen to Bobby Marks often, and I know he's a bit of a joke around here, but he did about 10 minutes on how the Celtics are in really good shape to weather the 2nd apron rules (not the tax, there's no way around that). There are some things in here I hadn't heard before. For example, he said JBs contract is going to come in lower than it was projected when he signed it last summer. He said 5 years $286 million instead of over $300 million.
I started this about 3 minutes in, to get you into the meat of it right away.
View: https://youtu.be/hvZUXFIzNM4?t=171
I started this about 3 minutes in, to get you into the meat of it right away.
View: https://youtu.be/hvZUXFIzNM4?t=171
The Warriors have let a few end-of-the rotation guys walk over the years because of this. Most prominently Gary Payton II, who they then disastrously traded for despite his terrible contract. Otto Porter, Javale McGee and Kent Bazemore are three others who were in the rotation but they wound up letting go elsewhere for money reasons.
I started a new thread to discuss this since I brought up JB in the DWhite thread, but it's all tied together because of the apron.
Seems to be wide open for interpretation.
Given the comments "It doesn't matter if you win. If you win, it doesn't matter. But...", it seems as if he was saying that Wyc would not have been happy with the amount of spending if the team didn't win. Which is something we were ourselves wondering.
The "They're spending a bit more money than they're comfortable spending" may be talking about their projections going forward (aka, when both JB and JT are actually receiving their super-max money) rather than what they spent in actual dollars this past season (with both JB and JT being paid based on their rookie-scale extension contracts). But yet they had no problem extending Jrue almost as soon as he was eligible.
I think the summary of it above gets it exactly backwards. I saw his post-game 5 video, posted it in the media thread actually, and my recollection of his comments... wait, I found it
edit: fuck, natty got it all already, the video link with specific seconds, the transcribed quote... nicely done, sir. Nevermind!
Point is, that was not a negative comment about ownership's future willingness to spend. If anything, it's a positive one - that since they've won, it's a lot more possible.
Windhorst has connections and it is possible he has inside info on ownership's intentions, but...
1) this ownership group has been pretty leak-proof so I'm not sure I believe they have told anyone beyond Brad/Zarren etc. about their financial plans
2) if they did, I do not think it is very likely to be Windy....so to me he'd have gotten it third-hand, raising various questions including "why didn't other more connected to Boston writers have it?"
No way to know, but I do not take from that snippet that he has clear info here.
1) this ownership group has been pretty leak-proof so I'm not sure I believe they have told anyone beyond Brad/Zarren etc. about their financial plans
2) if they did, I do not think it is very likely to be Windy....so to me he'd have gotten it third-hand, raising various questions including "why didn't other more connected to Boston writers have it?"
No way to know, but I do not take from that snippet that he has clear info here.
The only time you can do this is when you sign an extension a year in advance, like Jaylen did last year. He signed for 35% of the cap for the first year. But then following years can't be more than 8% raises off of it. Can't just give a guy 35% of the cap every season in a longterm deal.
This is what I was referring to above. Jaylen signed to 35% of the cap, and the cap has been adjusted slightly downward since then, so his contract will come in a bit lower. Ironically, since the Celtics walloped everyone in short series, and the Western Conference series also went 5 games, I think that there is a good chance the cap will get adjusted down slightly again due to lost game revenues before becoming official. Jaylen may have taken money out of his own pocket, though I'm sure he's fine with the trade off with getting a ring.
There are many examples, depending upon what you mean by worthy talent. Nattysez listed some with the Warriors. You never have to worry about the stars getting paid, every owner will do that. It's the complementary pieces. The Celtics could've paid Grant Williams this year and gone deeper into the tax. Maybe they would've if money was no object, maybe they would've dealt him either way. But the Celtics for sure made tax ducking trades two years in a row in 20-21 and 21-22. 20-21 wouldn't have mattered anyway since Jaylen went down, but might've been nice to have an extra rotation player against the Warriors in 21-22.
That phrase is missing context. He said they are willing to pay as long as they are in a championship window but if they weren't, going over luxury tax is something ownership aren't exactly comfortable with. This has been the consistent message coming out.
I'm trying to think which player that would be in 2022?? Not sure any of the players they traded away would have had any role in the Finals, but perhaps I'm missing someone.
I think Grant is a case that the team will indeed be looking harder at player value when it comes to the role players. Overpays become costly.
Dennis Schroder
I think I'd have liked him as an option over young Aaron Nesmith, or at least have both options. Or go out and get trade for another guy you'd prefer at midlevel money.
Celtics really struggled to score at times. He may have been able to get some easy buckets along the way.
Yes, his numbers took it all into account. I was mistaken on which incentives (that he had hit) were taken into account on next year's base salary number.
The uncertainty as to the final number here depended on how much incentives the Celtics were allowed to put into the new contract, or how much they negotiated it. But Keith's number contained the maximum (and actual) base-salary numbers.
Feels like the least we can do for the guy. However many threads he wants, he gets.
The prettiest smile on the team has some nice words about his extension:
View: https://twitter.com/JustinmTurpin/status/1838604346121977993
“I’ve seen saying since I’ve been here that I didn’t want to go nowhere else. I love playing for this organization with this team, this coaching staff, and for these fans. I was super excited for (the extension) to get done, especially early in the Summer, so I didn’t have to answer all the questions about it. I love being here. Me and family are excited to be here for a while.”
View: https://twitter.com/JustinmTurpin/status/1838604346121977993
“I’ve seen saying since I’ve been here that I didn’t want to go nowhere else. I love playing for this organization with this team, this coaching staff, and for these fans. I was super excited for (the extension) to get done, especially early in the Summer, so I didn’t have to answer all the questions about it. I love being here. Me and family are excited to be here for a while.”
I was just checking out some stuff about the Spurs, looking to see how the pick they received in the White trade, Blake Wesley, was faring, and ran across this gem of an opinion piece. If one wanted to write an article today, trying to get everything wrong about this trade, they couldn’t surpass this masterpiece.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/2/11/22929311/sorry-folks-derrick-white-trade-disaster-josh-richardson-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown-romeo-langford
https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/2/11/22929311/sorry-folks-derrick-white-trade-disaster-josh-richardson-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown-romeo-langford
That column is comically bad, we all roasted Neil Iyer last year on the other Derrick White thread
Roasting the poor guy aside.....he was not alone in this opinion. San Antonio probably thought something sort of like this. It's a good window into how Brad successfully arbitraged a systematic overvaluing of late 1sts and unprotected 1sts/swaps that weren't part of "All The Pickz" deals.
When you have 1-2 superstars locked up for awhile, and you have picks/swaps still available to upgrade around them, it's very hard to enter a Nets-style death spiral, which makes trading unprotecteds less risky than conventional wisdom.
Put another way: the Spurs thought they were getting a great deal here, but the assets didn't have that much upside, and would having DWhite+trash really have stopped them from tanking for Wemby? And think how good they'd be now with White+Wemby.
When you have 1-2 superstars locked up for awhile, and you have picks/swaps still available to upgrade around them, it's very hard to enter a Nets-style death spiral, which makes trading unprotecteds less risky than conventional wisdom.
Put another way: the Spurs thought they were getting a great deal here, but the assets didn't have that much upside, and would having DWhite+trash really have stopped them from tanking for Wemby? And think how good they'd be now with White+Wemby.
Not sure if SAS really thought they were getting a great deal as much as Pop doing DW a favor and putting him in a good spot.
SAS was 5 games in the clear from CHA before their odds would have changed so maybe DW doesn’t change their lottery odds but who wants to take a chance?
Yep. Brad finding trade value with late Firsts & 2nds has been his signature move on improving this roster.
Spurs fans were beside themselves when the White trade went down.
Any claim that nobody could see the DW leap wasn't paying attention to the impact metrics (+/-), which liked White more than Spurs All-Star Dejounte Murray.
Derrick's 84% FT probably had Brad thinking that DW could raise his 34% 3pt shot with work.
White eventually greased the Marcus Smart trade, which helped us land KP & some of Jrue.
Pop did say something to the effect that Boston would be a great situation for White.
DW went from SAS starter to Celtic bench player and had to re-earn a starting role.
It was wayyyy too early in DW's very favorable contract to be doing him favors. The Spurs thought they were getting a very good deal, and all reporting around the event has confirmed that.
To answer the bolded: teams that like to have good players if/when they win the lottery? DWhite is not a superstar who is going to win you 5 extra games on his own, particularly if you make the ecosystem more dysfunctional by tanking and bringing in younger guys.
To be fair and make my point explicit: people are jumping on that CelticsBlog writer, but
"The Spurs extracted significant value from Boston and did very well in the trade" was a consensus take at the time.
(It was also a wrong take at the time, as I and others argued, because it valued the pick and swap improperly based on overly facile comparisons to other trades.)
"The Spurs extracted significant value from Boston and did very well in the trade" was a consensus take at the time.
(It was also a wrong take at the time, as I and others argued, because it valued the pick and swap improperly based on overly facile comparisons to other trades.)
Yes and Pop said this at the time as well about them being in a rebuilding mode and how great White has been for the organization. The fact of the matter is that White was considered a solid role player for San Antonio and there wasn't going to be an enormous trade market for him. I recall Pop looking almost sad that he had to move him but saying that the Spurs are entering a long rebuild.
Yeah, it seemed like that at the time.
Murray was considered, by most, to be the superior Spur player, but Brad knew better. A bunch of posters here started coming around to that reasoning pretty quickly (albeit post-deal). The reality is PBS has developed into the NBA's best deal maker (roster builder/finisher).
Getting DW on that contract while everyone else slept on White was a Brad masterstroke.
COST: OK-ish players (Romeo/JRish) plus a late First & swap prayer
Same with Porzingis, nobody in the NBA seemed to be chasing KP after having a career-best season.
COST: a 2nd + an expiring (Jones) + a bad contract (Gallinari)
Along with a dozen other brilliant trades/extensions...every move has been well thought out (as opposed to other sports teams we follow around here)
Not to re-litigate this, but I was curious if it was true. So I googled.
SpursTalk (the SoSH of SAS) was mixed. They seem to have primarily regarded him as oft-injured, as this "would you trade D White" thread suggests. Though they were very cognizant of his defensive skillset, and would mock fellow posters who suggested trades that would absurdly under-value him. Then again, some there thought that trading him for Al Horford would be a good move, which totally missed the fact that Pop was planning a multi-year tank and needed future value, not present value. The actual trade reactions start here in their deadline thread, plus this thread on the trade itself, and I'll quote a few takes:
"Sad to see Derrick go for that"
"Probably worse trades out there for White. I firmly believe the Spurs look out for their homegrown players and where they send them. White gets to go play for coach Udoka again."
"Josh Richardson, Langford and 1st for White. I’ll take that."
"I mean Richardson is the same age as White, only signed for another year and on a cheaper contract. He's also a better 3-point shooter and can playmake and defend. I kinda get it, but if they were about to deal him [i.e. White], send him to the in Hawks for Collins!!!"
"Good haul for White"
"I hate to lose White but it feels like his money only goes up as his peak declines. 16, 17, 18 mil per over the next 3 seasons overlapping with Derrick moving beyond the wrong side of 26 years old."
"I doubt they'll [Boston] be in the lottery with Derrick on the team. They have been on a winning streak recently. The deal is decent I can't front."
"I like Derrick, but that’s a nice haul for a player who can’t stay on the court."
"It basically took this franchise 4 years to figure out it needed to rebuild. Yes - definitely praise worthy."
"Wat the fck is happening . Im not sure how to take this all in"
"I'll give the Spurs a solid B+ at the deadline. Good work from the front office. Turning Forbes into two SRPs is A work. Turning Young into ~11 spot pick swap is B+ work. The White deal is solid, but uncertain. The picks could prove very valuable or merely decent. So I'll give that deal a flat B."
"They realized Derrick wasn't a keeper. That's good. They need to be willing to do the same thing with Keldon."
(in reply) "I don’t agree with this at all. Derrick wasn’t traded because he wasn’t a keeper, he was traded because the package was in the Spurs favour when thinking of the team’s current standings and ceiling moving forward. [later:]. The Celtics paid handsomely, well above market value for “not a keeper”. The Spurs weren’t dangling Derrick (from what has been reported), but were listening to offers like any rebuilding team should. This was not a case of one man’s trash… "
"I'd still argue the Celtics underpaid for White. I don't think the Spurs should have traded him at this point and have said as much multiple times."
"You know I’ve been thinking and I may be off but I think the spurs may have improved the team not only in the long term but the short term too at the trade deadline lol the fact that Eubanks is gone and won’t be seeing any time on the floor is a big positive for the team this season and DWhite was probably my favorite player but even he himself had several stinker games this year"
"I like White but this is the right move 10 times out of 10"
"I like White but I like this trade. I mean, I'm a big fan of White and really enjoy watching him play. But he's closing in on 28, which means his timeline isn't great for a rebuilding team. Getting a first round pick for him is a win. Langford is interesting -- he probably isn't worth much but there might be something there. Richardson has value and could be flipped for even more picks."
"nice to see getting rid of all the trash. Hope Poeltl and [Lonnie] Walker are next."
"Sad to see Derrick White go, but it's the type of a trade rebuilding teams do. He's a perfect fit in Boston, he'll do well there."
"Damn… I loved D White, but… he’s performed well below expectations and is too old to be a part of the rebuild. Turning him into a first round pick is the right move. His value might never be as high as it is right now."
"I like White and think he will be in the league for several more years but I'm not sure if he will ever make the leap necessary to be a star player. He could blossom in Boston since he will be their primary PG but I'm not sure if him and Murray going forward could co-exist long-term playing together."
"Well given that White is 28 and duplicative of Murray and White has been paid, and the Spurs need money for their other young players, I think the trade makes sense, especially for the draft pick. But sad to see White go. He was a great draft pick by the Spurs, a total late round steal and he got them a whole lot in return."
"Damn. First round pick this year, potential first round swap in 2028, semi interesting prospect in Langford and a positive asset in Richardson? Yeah, I really liked White but a rebuilding team can't say no to that deal. If White were 24, I might hesitate. But closing in on 28? Gotta do it."
"I am really saddened to see White go. He was still the best two player we had but his health and inconsistency got in the way of his going the DJM way. The Spurs better get a good player in next year's draft. Or this move will be among the worst that Wright made for a long time."
"Boston is going to love Derrick tbh. I'm going to miss him but I like the trade."
"Should've got more, hopefully the Celtics implode and the pick is good. But at least Primo and Devin get more minutes."
"I like this. I didn't like white"
"Now I can be honest: His go-to move being taking a charge was embarrassing. That is barely a basketball play." (Ed.: LMAO)
"This is a great deal, and fixes the guard over load. I am surprised we got this much. There are teams that were talking about sending a first round pick for Richardson."
"Good dude, but I honestly feel like he peaked 2 years ago. Every time you think he was turning the corner again he would get hurt, or his play suffered and just wasnt up to par. This year his aggressiveness totally dissapeared. He was passing up open shot after open shot. I like the move stocking picks...."
"I much rather would've traded White for an upgrade in the front court, but he had to be traded at some point. The deal ain't that bad. Spurs clear cap space, get a prospect, a first, a pick swap. Josh Richardson is basically 85% of Derrick White at the same age. It's not a huge downgrade."
"I mean I don't think it's horrible but this is my least favorite deal of the day. Spurs needed to move some at that position and it made sense for it to be white but ngl I wish this was better."
"I don't think it's enough, Boston was desperate for someone to act like a lead guard and they just have to give up a likely pick in the 20s in a crappy draft and a future swap that might never execute? And White is locked in on a reasonable contract ... Great work by Brad Stevens. I am not a fan of this deal at all."
"I love Derrick but his lack of 3pt shooting accuracy is not a good fit next to DJM, this is a solid return, and we needed to trade him while the value was high (he hasn't been injured for a little while.)"
"As a knee jerk reaction, I give this trade a B-. It makes sense, but White's skill set is extremely useful."
"sad to say goodbye to the best player on our team, but for that haul you gotta do it"
(and that's just through page 3 of 21
)
And some longer analyses, too. They also liked Richardson, they were more mixed on Langford.
"Probably worse trades out there for White. I firmly believe the Spurs look out for their homegrown players and where they send them. White gets to go play for coach Udoka again."
"Josh Richardson, Langford and 1st for White. I’ll take that."
"I mean Richardson is the same age as White, only signed for another year and on a cheaper contract. He's also a better 3-point shooter and can playmake and defend. I kinda get it, but if they were about to deal him [i.e. White], send him to the in Hawks for Collins!!!"
"Good haul for White"
"I hate to lose White but it feels like his money only goes up as his peak declines. 16, 17, 18 mil per over the next 3 seasons overlapping with Derrick moving beyond the wrong side of 26 years old."
"I doubt they'll [Boston] be in the lottery with Derrick on the team. They have been on a winning streak recently. The deal is decent I can't front."
"I like Derrick, but that’s a nice haul for a player who can’t stay on the court."
"It basically took this franchise 4 years to figure out it needed to rebuild. Yes - definitely praise worthy."
"Wat the fck is happening . Im not sure how to take this all in"
"I'll give the Spurs a solid B+ at the deadline. Good work from the front office. Turning Forbes into two SRPs is A work. Turning Young into ~11 spot pick swap is B+ work. The White deal is solid, but uncertain. The picks could prove very valuable or merely decent. So I'll give that deal a flat B."
"They realized Derrick wasn't a keeper. That's good. They need to be willing to do the same thing with Keldon."
(in reply) "I don’t agree with this at all. Derrick wasn’t traded because he wasn’t a keeper, he was traded because the package was in the Spurs favour when thinking of the team’s current standings and ceiling moving forward. [later:]. The Celtics paid handsomely, well above market value for “not a keeper”. The Spurs weren’t dangling Derrick (from what has been reported), but were listening to offers like any rebuilding team should. This was not a case of one man’s trash… "
"I'd still argue the Celtics underpaid for White. I don't think the Spurs should have traded him at this point and have said as much multiple times."
"You know I’ve been thinking and I may be off but I think the spurs may have improved the team not only in the long term but the short term too at the trade deadline lol the fact that Eubanks is gone and won’t be seeing any time on the floor is a big positive for the team this season and DWhite was probably my favorite player but even he himself had several stinker games this year"
"I like White but this is the right move 10 times out of 10"
"I like White but I like this trade. I mean, I'm a big fan of White and really enjoy watching him play. But he's closing in on 28, which means his timeline isn't great for a rebuilding team. Getting a first round pick for him is a win. Langford is interesting -- he probably isn't worth much but there might be something there. Richardson has value and could be flipped for even more picks."
"nice to see getting rid of all the trash. Hope Poeltl and [Lonnie] Walker are next."
"Sad to see Derrick White go, but it's the type of a trade rebuilding teams do. He's a perfect fit in Boston, he'll do well there."
"Damn… I loved D White, but… he’s performed well below expectations and is too old to be a part of the rebuild. Turning him into a first round pick is the right move. His value might never be as high as it is right now."
"I like White and think he will be in the league for several more years but I'm not sure if he will ever make the leap necessary to be a star player. He could blossom in Boston since he will be their primary PG but I'm not sure if him and Murray going forward could co-exist long-term playing together."
"Well given that White is 28 and duplicative of Murray and White has been paid, and the Spurs need money for their other young players, I think the trade makes sense, especially for the draft pick. But sad to see White go. He was a great draft pick by the Spurs, a total late round steal and he got them a whole lot in return."
"Damn. First round pick this year, potential first round swap in 2028, semi interesting prospect in Langford and a positive asset in Richardson? Yeah, I really liked White but a rebuilding team can't say no to that deal. If White were 24, I might hesitate. But closing in on 28? Gotta do it."
"I am really saddened to see White go. He was still the best two player we had but his health and inconsistency got in the way of his going the DJM way. The Spurs better get a good player in next year's draft. Or this move will be among the worst that Wright made for a long time."
"Boston is going to love Derrick tbh. I'm going to miss him but I like the trade."
"Should've got more, hopefully the Celtics implode and the pick is good. But at least Primo and Devin get more minutes."
"I like this. I didn't like white"
"Now I can be honest: His go-to move being taking a charge was embarrassing. That is barely a basketball play." (Ed.: LMAO)
"This is a great deal, and fixes the guard over load. I am surprised we got this much. There are teams that were talking about sending a first round pick for Richardson."
"Good dude, but I honestly feel like he peaked 2 years ago. Every time you think he was turning the corner again he would get hurt, or his play suffered and just wasnt up to par. This year his aggressiveness totally dissapeared. He was passing up open shot after open shot. I like the move stocking picks...."
"I much rather would've traded White for an upgrade in the front court, but he had to be traded at some point. The deal ain't that bad. Spurs clear cap space, get a prospect, a first, a pick swap. Josh Richardson is basically 85% of Derrick White at the same age. It's not a huge downgrade."
"I mean I don't think it's horrible but this is my least favorite deal of the day. Spurs needed to move some at that position and it made sense for it to be white but ngl I wish this was better."
"I don't think it's enough, Boston was desperate for someone to act like a lead guard and they just have to give up a likely pick in the 20s in a crappy draft and a future swap that might never execute? And White is locked in on a reasonable contract ... Great work by Brad Stevens. I am not a fan of this deal at all."
"I love Derrick but his lack of 3pt shooting accuracy is not a good fit next to DJM, this is a solid return, and we needed to trade him while the value was high (he hasn't been injured for a little while.)"
"As a knee jerk reaction, I give this trade a B-. It makes sense, but White's skill set is extremely useful."
"sad to say goodbye to the best player on our team, but for that haul you gotta do it"
(and that's just through page 3 of 21
)And some longer analyses, too. They also liked Richardson, they were more mixed on Langford.
Overall, I'd say the reaction to the trade was positive from their perspective, definitely not "beside themselves" (with one or two exceptions). They mainly thought that Brian Wright's strategy of accumulating future assets was the right one, and that he got good value from Boston.
After the trade, there were recriminations that started as soon as a month later, although at that time most posts were very supportive of the trade and that they got out from under White's salary. As that thread continued, everyone there was rooting for him to do well on the Celtics during the Ime playoff run in 2022. When we made the Finals, opinions were balanced between "Boston massively overpaid" and "I'm not sure we got enough assets". By a year later, reactions were still mainly "Might be one of those trades that truly helped both teams" (and they were still happy to see his success). They understood the assignment: "Imagine if White this year turned the spurs from the third worst team to the 5th worse and missing out on Victor." "i hated letting him go between him and Dejounte. But of course, we keep white and there is no victor." A few of them still pine for him but they've all basically moved on.
So yeah, not seeing it.
I'm fine with re-litigating, one of the beauties of SoSH is our thoughts/opinions are saved.Not to re-litigate this, but I was curious if it was true. So I googled.
SpursTalk (the SoSH of SAS) was mixed. They seem to have primarily regarded him as oft-injured, as this "would you trade D White" thread suggests. Though they were very cognizant of his defensive skillset, and would mock fellow posters who suggested trades that would absurdly under-value him. Then again, some there thought that trading him for Al Horford would be a good move, which totally missed the fact that Pop was planning a multi-year tank and needed future value, not present value. The actual trade reactions start here in their deadline thread, plus this thread on the trade itself, and I'll quote a few takes:
"Sad to see Derrick go for that"
"Probably worse trades out there for White. I firmly believe the Spurs look out for their homegrown players and where they send them. White gets to go play for coach Udoka again."
"Josh Richardson, Langford and 1st for White. I’ll take that."
"I mean Richardson is the same age as White, only signed for another year and on a cheaper contract. He's also a better 3-point shooter and can playmake and defend. I kinda get it, but if they were about to deal him [i.e. White], send him to the in Hawks for Collins!!!"
"Good haul for White"
"I hate to lose White but it feels like his money only goes up as his peak declines. 16, 17, 18 mil per over the next 3 seasons overlapping with Derrick moving beyond the wrong side of 26 years old."
"I doubt they'll [Boston] be in the lottery with Derrick on the team. They have been on a winning streak recently. The deal is decent I can't front."
"I like Derrick, but that’s a nice haul for a player who can’t stay on the court."
"It basically took this franchise 4 years to figure out it needed to rebuild. Yes - definitely praise worthy."
"Wat the fck is happening . Im not sure how to take this all in"
"I'll give the Spurs a solid B+ at the deadline. Good work from the front office. Turning Forbes into two SRPs is A work. Turning Young into ~11 spot pick swap is B+ work. The White deal is solid, but uncertain. The picks could prove very valuable or merely decent. So I'll give that deal a flat B."
"They realized Derrick wasn't a keeper. That's good. They need to be willing to do the same thing with Keldon."
(in reply) "I don’t agree with this at all. Derrick wasn’t traded because he wasn’t a keeper, he was traded because the package was in the Spurs favour when thinking of the team’s current standings and ceiling moving forward. [later:]. The Celtics paid handsomely, well above market value for “not a keeper”. The Spurs weren’t dangling Derrick (from what has been reported), but were listening to offers like any rebuilding team should. This was not a case of one man’s trash… "
"I'd still argue the Celtics underpaid for White. I don't think the Spurs should have traded him at this point and have said as much multiple times."
"You know I’ve been thinking and I may be off but I think the spurs may have improved the team not only in the long term but the short term too at the trade deadline lol the fact that Eubanks is gone and won’t be seeing any time on the floor is a big positive for the team this season and DWhite was probably my favorite player but even he himself had several stinker games this year"
"I like White but this is the right move 10 times out of 10"
"I like White but I like this trade. I mean, I'm a big fan of White and really enjoy watching him play. But he's closing in on 28, which means his timeline isn't great for a rebuilding team. Getting a first round pick for him is a win. Langford is interesting -- he probably isn't worth much but there might be something there. Richardson has value and could be flipped for even more picks."
"nice to see getting rid of all the trash. Hope Poeltl and [Lonnie] Walker are next."
"Sad to see Derrick White go, but it's the type of a trade rebuilding teams do. He's a perfect fit in Boston, he'll do well there."
"Damn… I loved D White, but… he’s performed well below expectations and is too old to be a part of the rebuild. Turning him into a first round pick is the right move. His value might never be as high as it is right now."
"I like White and think he will be in the league for several more years but I'm not sure if he will ever make the leap necessary to be a star player. He could blossom in Boston since he will be their primary PG but I'm not sure if him and Murray going forward could co-exist long-term playing together."
"Well given that White is 28 and duplicative of Murray and White has been paid, and the Spurs need money for their other young players, I think the trade makes sense, especially for the draft pick. But sad to see White go. He was a great draft pick by the Spurs, a total late round steal and he got them a whole lot in return."
"Damn. First round pick this year, potential first round swap in 2028, semi interesting prospect in Langford and a positive asset in Richardson? Yeah, I really liked White but a rebuilding team can't say no to that deal. If White were 24, I might hesitate. But closing in on 28? Gotta do it."
"I am really saddened to see White go. He was still the best two player we had but his health and inconsistency got in the way of his going the DJM way. The Spurs better get a good player in next year's draft. Or this move will be among the worst that Wright made for a long time."
"Boston is going to love Derrick tbh. I'm going to miss him but I like the trade."
"Should've got more, hopefully the Celtics implode and the pick is good. But at least Primo and Devin get more minutes."
"I like this. I didn't like white"
"Now I can be honest: His go-to move being taking a charge was embarrassing. That is barely a basketball play." (Ed.: LMAO)
"This is a great deal, and fixes the guard over load. I am surprised we got this much. There are teams that were talking about sending a first round pick for Richardson."
"Good dude, but I honestly feel like he peaked 2 years ago. Every time you think he was turning the corner again he would get hurt, or his play suffered and just wasnt up to par. This year his aggressiveness totally dissapeared. He was passing up open shot after open shot. I like the move stocking picks...."
"I much rather would've traded White for an upgrade in the front court, but he had to be traded at some point. The deal ain't that bad. Spurs clear cap space, get a prospect, a first, a pick swap. Josh Richardson is basically 85% of Derrick White at the same age. It's not a huge downgrade."
"I mean I don't think it's horrible but this is my least favorite deal of the day. Spurs needed to move some at that position and it made sense for it to be white but ngl I wish this was better."
"I don't think it's enough, Boston was desperate for someone to act like a lead guard and they just have to give up a likely pick in the 20s in a crappy draft and a future swap that might never execute? And White is locked in on a reasonable contract ... Great work by Brad Stevens. I am not a fan of this deal at all."
"I love Derrick but his lack of 3pt shooting accuracy is not a good fit next to DJM, this is a solid return, and we needed to trade him while the value was high (he hasn't been injured for a little while.)"
"As a knee jerk reaction, I give this trade a B-. It makes sense, but White's skill set is extremely useful."
"sad to say goodbye to the best player on our team, but for that haul you gotta do it"
(and that's just through page 3 of 21
And some longer analyses, too. They also liked Richardson, they were more mixed on Langford.
Overall, I'd say the reaction to the trade was positive from their perspective, definitely not "beside themselves" (with one or two exceptions). They mainly thought that Brian Wright's strategy of accumulating future assets was the right one, and that he got good value from Boston.
After the trade, there were recriminations that started as soon as a month later, although at that time most posts were very supportive of the trade and that they got out from under White's salary. As that thread continued, everyone there was rooting for him to do well on the Celtics during the Ime playoff run in 2022. When we made the Finals, opinions were balanced between "Boston massively overpaid" and "I'm not sure we got enough assets". By a year later, reactions were still mainly "Might be one of those trades that truly helped both teams" (and they were still happy to see his success). They understood the assignment: "Imagine if White this year turned the spurs from the third worst team to the 5th worse and missing out on Victor." "i hated letting him go between him and Dejounte. But of course, we keep white and there is no victor." A few of them still pine for him but they've all basically moved on.
So yeah, not seeing it.
My initial reaction Hour 1 to the deal was what the heck? JRich + picks seemed like a lot.
Until I started looking at all the impact metrics (DARKO & +/-). Then understood Brad's thinking. Honestly, I had no idea that Derrick White was better than Dejounte Murray, but according to the metrics DW was better and the gap has only widened since then.
At the time, I went to some random SAS board to gage their response (posted below the SAS board I looked at)
I didn't follow Spurs fans a month after the trade...Those that looked at the impact metrics loved it for Boston.
Credit to @Cellar-Door & @RorschachsMask (and others) for liking the deal Day 1
As one of the resident stat nerds, LOVE the move.
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Compare that to the Murray deal 4 months later:
COST: Danilo Gallinari; 2023 first-round pick (protected 1-14 until 2025 and then turns into 2nd round pick); 2025 first-round pick; 2026 pick swap; and 2027 first-round pick
DW was soundly misvalued by the league.
100%. Can we assume the Spurs offered Murray or White to Brad?Compare that to the Murray deal 4 months later:
COST: Danilo Gallinari; 2023 first-round pick (protected 1-14 until 2025 and then turns into 2nd round pick); 2025 first-round pick; 2026 pick swap; and 2027 first-round pick
DW was soundly misvalued by the league. (and ESPN last year
Instead of going ALL IN on Murray he parsed out only one First + a swap for White
Later that evening Nice Guy Brad was overheard saying "We saved ourselves some Firsts, got the superior player & better contract"
Having spent 15 years or so of my life in SA, I have a lot of Spurs fan friends. The astute ones knew White would be good for the Celtics but a good portion, and it appears to be reflected in that message board, just didn’t know what they had.
Clearly, nobody expected White to be THIS good but he was clearly an undervalued find by Brad.
Thanks... it was a weird situation.
Derrick is clearly a very likable player, and many Spurs fans did LOVE him. Unique backstory, no scholarships, D2, transfers to D1 but has to sit out a season. He graduates college with student loans (the only NBA player drafted in the last 50yrs with student loans) and immediately pays them off with his first NBA check (he is the complete opposite of Bronny James)
If you're a Spurs fan, and stuck in purgatory with White & Murray, then moving them for draft picks and sucking hard is the right move.
Some fans wanted a re-start and its worked out for them regardless of what Brad gave them (very little) and what Atlanta handed them (a LOT more)
So technically speaking, the Spurs fan reaction was "mixed" to Brad rinsing them.
Wemby righted many wrongs.
Yup. Wemby quite simply changed that franchise’s trajectory. Without him, they’d likely be in purgatory for a long, long time.
*Insert comment that we want to fire "GM Belichick" but keep "Coach Belichick" here.* Seems similar to Pop's last 5 years or so of management in San Antonio. But his edge over BB is he was willing to bottom out as opposed to trying to get near .500 when it was obvious the roster was not good.
D White would have eventually thrived albeit not to the efficiency he's seen with the Celtics. SAS may have not gotten the Wemby pick as a result...so it may be a win-win trade, although the SAS win was delayed gratification and is really a loss when reviewing the trade in a vacuum. That pick swap is going to be minimal with their likely success with Wemby by the time 2028 comes around.
All to say, Pop is crazy like a fox and it appears he wants to coach until 80 and see through the potential next championship team led by Wemby. He's really going to distance himself in the all-time coaching wins category. Going to take Coach Joe until at least 55 years old to pass it.
