Derek Jeter: Do you think he's a Hall of Famer?

[terrynever]

Really?

Yeah. Brett was magic. The homer he hit off Gossage in the 1980 ALCS was one of the great upper deck shots ever, and you knew it was coming because he was such a dead fastball hitter and Goose was going to challenge him for sure. Brett was so good, I wished I lived in Kansas City and could watch him every day. Back before cable TV changed everything. Guys like Brett were not seen often enough in those days.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Yeah. Brett was magic. The homer he hit off Gossage in the 1980 ALCS was one of the great upper deck shots ever, and you knew it was coming because he was such a dead-on fastball hitter. He was so good, I wished I lived in Kansas City and could watch him every day. Back before cable TV changed everything. Guys like Brett were not seen often enough in those days.

 
More magical than the World Series homers that Jeter hit? I think you are selling Jeter short here.

 

[terrynever]

 
More magical than the World Series homers that Jeter hit? I think you are selling Jeter short here.

Brett worked the upper deck in right. Jeter had a kid patrolling the front row.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

Brett worked the upper deck in right. Jeter had a kid patrolling the front row.

Are you thinking of the Jeffery Maier game? That was in the ALCS.. I think the other poster was thinking of the homer of the Diamonbacks reliver Kim in the 2001 World Series or the leadoff homer in game 4 of the 2000 World Series that destroyed whatever momentum the Mets had.

 

[terrynever]

I'm just busting Jeter's balls. Brett was a real home run hitter. Jeter had a friendly porch in right. He wasn't the first right handed hitter to take advantage of it. Bill Skowron did it a lot.

 

[Sampo Gida]

I'm just busting Jeter's balls. Brett was a real home run hitter. Jeter had a friendly porch in right. He wasn't the first right handed hitter to take advantage of it. Bill Skowron did it a lot.

 
He only hit 18 more HR at home than on the road and less then half of his HR were to the right side of CF'er.  I suspect he did not take advantage of the short porch in right as much as folks think.  If anything, YS seemed to play neutral for Jeter as his H-A splits were not much different than league average (about a 50 OPS advantage at home)
 
If anything, the short porch in right may have taken away a few of his hits to RF as RF'ers played shallower.

 

[terrynever]

My point is, Jeter wasn't a home run hitter. So to compare him with someone like Brett, power gives the edge to Brett. That's where this conversation started.

 

[jon abbey]

My point is, Jeter wasn't a home run hitter. So to compare him with someone like Brett, power gives the edge to Brett. That's where this conversation started.

 
Not by as much as you'd think, have you looked at the numbers? If not, guess their respective career HR totals before checking, I think you will be surprised. 

 

[terrynever]

Not by as much as you'd think, have you looked at the numbers? If not, guess their respective career HR totals before checking, I think you will be surprised.

Brett hit 20 or more homers eight times, Jeter three.
As David Cone has said many times, the ball got juiced in 1995, probably as part of Selig's plan to win back the fans. Not the first time the ball got wound tighter but the guys in the 1980s and early 90s were hitting and throwing a different ball than players in Jeter's era.

 

[mjm3773]

A clear Hall-of-Famer. However, arguably the most overrated player in baseball history. The argument could be made that he is closer to being the 20th best shortstop of all-time than top ten, let alone anywhere close to being in the Inner Circle.

For example, if you go by straight BBRef WAR (yes, I know it isn't the be all and end all - but it just shows one of the ways Jeter can be viewed as overrated), there are 9 shortstops who have a listed WAR higher than Jeter: Honus, A-Rod (most of his value came at SS, thus he is classified as one), Ripken, George Davis, Arky Vaughan, Luke Appling, Bill Dahlen, Yount (see A-Rod) and Ozzie. That right there could put him in 10th.

Now once you adjust WAR for strike and pre-expansion shortened seasons, and add in the most conservative WWII credit possible, the following also jump ahead of Jeter in straight WAR: Jack Glasscock, Larkin, Bobby Wallace, Trammell, Monte Ward and Pee Wee Reese). Now he drops down to 16th.

If you have any sort of peak bonus, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin and Ernie Banks can jump ahead of Jeter, since they are all within 2-3 WAR of Jeter adjusting for pre-expansion seasons. And Jeter probably wouldn't jump ahead of any of the others previously listed based on peak, since his peak, although good, was still lower than every single one of them except Reese, who with war credit (he never had a WAR below 4 from 1942-1955 in any season that he played - so even just just giving him 4 WAR per year credit for the 3 years he missed for WWII, he jumps to over 10 WAR ahead of Jeter. So theoretically Jeter is down to 19th in this exercise.

This doesn't even consider Negro League Players, of whom I have no doubt that Pop Lloyd was better than Jeter. I also have Grant Johnson and Willie Wells ahead of him, and Dobie Moore, Dick Lundy and Bus Clarkson behind, but YMMV. But even just including Lloyd, Jeter could drop to 20th.

Then there are the special cases: Pre-NA and NA players Dickey Pearce and and George Wright and the ultimate peak shortstop candidate, Hughie Jennings. I have all three of them ahead of Jeter, but I can understand why others wouldn't due to uncertainty/short career, respectively.

Thus, going by straight (short-season and war-credit adjusted) BBRef WAR, not even giving peak bonuses to the Boudreaus, Cronins, and Banks, Jeter has the 16th most WAR all time. And this is with BBRef's relative generosity towards Jeter's defense compared to some other systems (e.g. DRA). If you use DRA for Jeter's defense instead, his career WAR drops down to around 55, and he becomes a borderline candidate.

If you use any sort of WAA system that zeroes out below average years since those don't really contribute to a player's greatness to determine a player's HoF worthiness, even without using DRA or any more punishing defensive metrics, Jeter can drop into the low/mid 20's of SS rankings.

 

[terrisus]

For example, if you go by straight BBRef WAR (yes, I know it isn't the be all and end all - but it just shows one of the ways Jeter can be viewed as overrated), there are 9 shortstops who have a listed WAR higher than Jeter: Honus, A-Rod (most of his value came at SS, thus he is classified as one), Ripken, George Davis, Arky Vaughan, Luke Appling, Bill Dahlen, Yount (see A-Rod) and Ozzie. That right there could put him in 10th.

Now once you adjust WAR for strike and pre-expansion shortened seasons, and add in the most conservative WWII credit possible, the following also jump ahead of Jeter in straight WAR: Jack Glasscock, Larkin, Bobby Wallace, Trammell, Monte Ward and Pee Wee Reese). Now he drops down to 16th.

 
He was a much better pitcher than Jeter too.

 

[Koufax]

Nice analysis, MJM.  Without the benefit of all that work, my thought was that he gets in on the basis of having been a consistently good hitter for 17 consecutive years with a career OPS over .800.  While he wasn't a rangy shortstop he was solid and dependable.  He doesn't seem like a great star, but he played a critical defensive position competently and hit better than most of his competition throughout his career.  That's HOF material, even if it isn't the making of a legend.  And since he never seemed to put on airs, I can't blame him for the hype that was heaped upon him.

 

[ivanvamp]

He's the Nolan Ryan of hitters.  A slam-dunk HOFer much of whose career achievement is tied up in longevity.  See also: Pete Rose.

 
Not simply longevity.  Jeter's prime was incredible.  Here are his numbers, from 1998-2007, a 10-year period covering ages 24-33:
 
.321/.393/.472/.865, 126 ops+
Per 162 games:  664 ab, 125 r, 213 h, 36 2b, 5 3b, 19 hr, 85 rbi, 25 sb
Season averages;  614 ab, 115 r, 197 h, 33 2b, 4 3b, 18 hr, 78 rbi, 23 sb, 5.0 bWAR per season on average
 
I mean, that's a *GREAT* baseball player.  Solid power, good speed, tremendous on-base ability, the works.  

 

[terrisus]

The Hall of Fame still loves their counting stats. Jeter is currently 10th in career hits, and barring a catastrophic injury (we can always hope) will make it to at least 9th (3 hits) and possibly as high as 6th (118). 5th is also within the realm of possibility (198)
 
Aside from Pete Rose (obvious issues) and Jeter, the top 20 in career hits are all in the Hall of Fame.
Next is 21, Craig Biggio, who should be in within the next few years.
Then 25, Palmiero (Steroids)
Then 32, Alex Rodriguez (still active, ineligible)
Then 33, Barry Bonds (Steroids)
Then 40, Omar Vizquel (not yet eligible)
So, it's not until 43, Harold Baines, that we find a player within the top 50 in career hits who isn't in the Hall of Fame, who is eligible and hasn't been linked to Steroids. Aside from Biggio anyway, which is its own tragedy which will hopefully be fixed soon.
 
Basically, by being in the top 50 in career hits (2774) and not being linked to steroids or gambling, he pretty much guaranteed he would be in the Hall of Fame, regardless of who he played for.

 

[Blacken]

He should be a Hall of Famer.  He's going to be a first ballot HOF.  The Jeter fellating by the media has been over the top at times, but I think he's probably in the second-tier of all time great SS's

This is where I'm at (accidentally clicked "borderline"). Amazing prime followed by disappointment and bolstered by longevity amongst counting stats. His later career has been a disappointment in part because he's still playing shortstop when he really shouldn't be (both because he's old and bad at it and because he was the second-best shortstop on his team for the last decade), and for me that drops him off the first ballot.

 

[mjm3773]

Don't get me wrong. You can definitely make the argument that Jeter was the second best offensive shortstop in history, maybe third if you give emphasis to Arky Vaughan's peak.

But it's the defense that kills him. Now for most players, there can be a lot of discrepancy between various defensive metrics (DRS - the one BBRef uses, UZR, DRA, Clay Davenport/Baseball Prospectus). But they all think Jeter is a horrible fielder, and BBRef is one of the most forgiving to Jeter defensively.

 

[mjm3773]

He was a much better pitcher than Jeter too.

Definitely. But taking Ward's career as a whole, I just included him at SS because that's where he was classified in the Hall of Merit over at BaseballThinkFactory.org.

 

[terrisus]

Definitely. But taking Ward's career as a whole, I just included him at SS because that's where he was classified in the Hall of Merit over at BaseballThinkFactory.org.

 
Oh, I know.
Monte Ward has just always fascinated me at having been so successful at both pitching at hitting.

 

[mjm3773]

Oh, I know.
Monte Ward has just always fascinated me at having been so successful at both pitching at hitting.

Not to hijack the thread, but besides Ward, and the obvious Babe Ruth, others that truly excelled at both were other 19th century players Charlie Ferguson, who died after a 4 year career at 25 of typhoid fever, and "Parisian" Bob Caruthers. And from the Negro Leagues, there was Bullet Rogan and Martin Dihigo.

 

[terrisus]

Nifty. Knew about Rogan, but not the others. Will have to read up more on them.
 
But, Ward was just a really interesting person in general. Being involved with the Player's League - even having a team named after him - and the Federal League, and various other things of interest.
I suppose much of the stuff from the 19th Century often gets shuffled aside as just "While Baseball was figuring things out"/"Things were so different"/etc. But Ward was just a really interesting person.
 
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled Derek Jeter discussions.

 

[Sampo Gida]

Don't get me wrong. You can definitely make the argument that Jeter was the second best offensive shortstop in history, maybe third if you give emphasis to Arky Vaughan's peak.

But it's the defense that kills him. Now for most players, there can be a lot of discrepancy between various defensive metrics (DRS - the one BBRef uses, UZR, DRA, Clay Davenport/Baseball Prospectus). But they all think Jeter is a horrible fielder, and BBRef is one of the most forgiving to Jeter defensively.

 
UZR has only been around since 2002 when Jeter was already in his 30's.  From 2002-2004 UZR had him at -2 UZR/150, slightly below average but not terrible.  After that, he probably should have been moved to 3B but they had Arod there, not that he would ave been moved.
 
Not sure how reliable Total Zone and the other metrics before UZR are.  I would regress them pretty heavily before using them to come to definitive conclusions.
 
I actually think Jeters offense is a bit overrated (not to say its not very good).  You have to remember he played in one of the greatest offensive environments ever.  In terms of Batting Runs/PA Jeter is ranked behind Arod, Nomar and Hanley Ramirez from 1995-2013.  Jeter of course had far more PA at SS than any other player.   As for other eras, its harder to compare. What would Robin Yount, Lou Boudreux , Ernie Banks and Vern Stephens have done if they played in the juiced ball era? 

 

[mjm3773]

 Not sure how reliable Total Zone and the other metrics before UZR are.  I would regress them pretty heavily before using them to come to definitive conclusions.

BBRef uses a regressed TZ pre-2002 (I believe it uses a 2/3 of straight TZ values).

 

[Orel Miraculous]

Posnanski compares Jeter to Alan Trammell . . . 
 

He was a fantastic baseball player. But you know what? Alan Trammell was just about as good.
Here are Alan Trammell’s and Derek Jeter’s neutralized offensive numbers.
Trammell: .289/.357/.420
Jeter: .307/.375/..439
Jeter was a better hitter. But it was closer than you might think. They had similar strengths offensively. At their best, they were .300 hitters with some power and some speed. Both lost deserving MVP awards to players who hit a lot of home runs and had a lot of RBIs. Jeter played in a historically high scoring time which inflated his numbers. Trammell played in a low-scoring time, which depressed his. So their actual numbers diverge. Plus Jeter was much more dependable which is no small thing. Jeter played in 300-plus more games. He played 140-plus games in 15 seasons. Trammell because of injuries and such managed only eight 140-game seasons.
But Trammell has his advantages too — namely defense. Trammell was a much, much, much, much, much, much — can’t put “much” in here enough times — much better defensive shortstop.
By Baseball Reference’s defensive WAR Trammell was 22 wins better than a replacement shortstop. Jeter was nine runs worse.
By Fangraphs, Trammell was 76 runs better than a replacement shortstop. Jeter was 139 runs worse.
You can buy those numbers or you can partially agree with them or you can throw them out entirely, but there’s no doubt in my mind that Trammell was a better defensive shortstop. It’s only a matter of degree. And where Jeter’s offensive strengths and longevity give him a cushion over Trammell, the defense unquestionably cuts into the lead.
More: They were both widely respected players. They were both leaders on excellent teams. They both had great years. It’s fascinating to look at their five best years by Baseball Reference WAR.
Jeter: 8.0 (1999); 7.5 (1998); 6.6 (2009); 5.5 (2006); 5.1 (2001).
Trammell: 8.2 (1987); 6.7 (1990); 6.6 (1984); 6.3 (1986); 6.0 (1983).
And by Fangraphs WAR:
Jeter: 7.4 (1999); 6.8 (2009); 6.2 (1998); 6.1 (2006); 5.5 (2002).
Trammell: 7.7 (1987); 6.9 (1984); 6.2 (1990); 5.7 (1986); 5.6 (1983).
By both of those measures, Trammell was at least as good, and perhaps a tick better, than Jeter when they were both at their best. That’s because Baseball Reference and Fangraphs WAR weigh defense pretty heavily. Like I say, you might not think Trammell’s defense makes up that much ground. You might not even think Trammell was a better defender than Jeter. Baseball is fun to argue about.
 

 
. . . and comes to the conclusion that Jeter wasn't really any better than him.  What makes this interesting, of course, is that ALAN TRAMMELL ISN'T IN THE HALL OF FAME!  So maybe this thread isn't so ridiculous after all.

 

[AlNipper49]

Jeter also had significantly more depth surrounding him in the lineup than Trammel did.

 

[Rasputin]

Posnanski compares Jeter to Alan Trammell . . . 
 
 
. . . and comes to the conclusion that Jeter wasn't really any better than him.  What makes this interesting, of course, is that ALAN TRAMMELL ISN'T IN THE HALL OF FAME!  So maybe this thread isn't so ridiculous after all.

 
There are, I think, three responses to this.
 
1) Jeter has already played 300 more games in one fewer season.
 
2) Jeter has a lot more post season heroics which isn't Trammell's fault, but is still a factor.
 
3) Trammell should probably be in the Hall.

 

[fenwaypaul]

Silly question. With his numbers, on what basis would he NOT be a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Because he played for the Yankees? Because he seems douchey? Because he uses the worst pickup line ever? Because he's the most overrated player of all time? If anything, the last item adds to his HoF credentials; I think it should be on his plaque.

 

[Adirondack jack]

Is this a serious question?
 
Aside from the insignia on his hat and uniform, what would hold Derek Jeter back from being a first-ballot, slam dunk Hall of Famer?

 

 
Mostly I agree. He will definitely be in on the first ballot and as someone mentioned yesterday perhaps be the first unanimous inductee.
 
But, if Jeter spent his career in Kansas City I very much doubt he would get the respect he current receives and would/could be more of a fringe candidate.

 
 

 
Seriously? Because if he hit like this--as a shortstop--in KC: .312/.386/.446 he'd still go to the Hall of Fame in a landslide. Check out his regular season numbers, they are really, really good. He's probably a better version of Paul Molitor, who has numbers as close or worse than Jeter's (.306/.369/.448) and Molitor played in media meccas Milwaukee, Toronto and Minnesota yet still got into the HOF with 85% of the ballots on his first try.
 
So your assertion that Jeter would be a "fringe candidate" is laughable.

 
:natstown:

 

[seantoo]

Much like Manning, it's not really his fault that people fawn all over him. What's he going to say, "I don't really deserve these Gold Gloves"?

[SIZE=10.5pt]Well it's the love of Derek Jeter that I hate and not Derek Jeter. Yes he's a Hall of Famer which is obvious; however he's over-rated as many players who won multiple WS while playing for the Yankees. Don't believe me? Phil Rizzuto who was elected to the HOF with his .273 BA, 38 HR and 93 OPS+ say hello. He's another yankee SS was on the team when they won multiple WS and he's arguably the least deserving player in the HOF. I compare them for one reason only to show that people over-rate players who played for WS teams. People do not win WS but rather teams do and no to very little credit should ever be given for that. The media in their simple minded way want you to believe differently. Hell our whole society does how else do you justify CEOs' salary? I digress to make a point now back to the point at hand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Derek is also not the leader he's made out to be. Refusing to move off of SS when clearly A-Rod was a better choice, then alienating A-Rod his former friend from the team, panning it up for the camera, announcing his retirement in February, and practically black mailing the Yankees into handing him deals at the end of his career he clearly did not warrant. I don't blame him for that but that is not what a leader does. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] People are sheeple and sheeple apparently need heroes so the media betrayed him as one and forced that repeatedly down our throats. Repeat anything often enough and they will believe. [/SIZE]Was it Buck that mentioned Jeter's calming eyes made his team-mates play better? Holy shit not only is that very gay, not that there is anything wrong with being gay, but it underscores how ridiculous the media is when portraying captain intangibles to the point now if one suggests anything less than anointing him as a saint and leader of the known universe you must be a jealous DB that knows nothing of the game. 
 
Or....is it that sometimes people cannot handle the truth and get defensive when their binky is held up to the same light and scrutiny as everyone else, He's human. 
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Also the link between PED's and the Yankees clubhouse is stronger than perhaps all other clubhouses combined. Derek Jeter after trailing off for several years as he approaches his mid 30's, which is normal, then suddenly at 38 YO rebounded in a big way until a very simple routine play caused his ankle to roll and he missed an entire season. That sounds mighty suspicious to me and if you’re not at least wondering that yourself then you to might just be a fan boy. [/SIZE]

 

[seantoo]

His defense for sure lacked in recent years, but for the most part he was a solid defender. He is 23rd all-time in career fielding percentage at SS (when you make the compromise that the player must have at least 10 years under his belt). His range was poor at the end, but in his prime he was at least an average defensive SS. To not have him in your all-time top 10 is kind of crazy, but to each his own.
 
Quick case against Ripken: He had some fabulous peak years, but the rest of his career was pretty average. He started very hot, as good as any SS ever, but by the late 1980s (with the exception of his 1991 and 1999 seasons he was a pretty average player. Despite playing the offensive explosion era, Ripken has way, way too many seasons where he he .260 with 20 homers with an OPS under .800. Jeter never had such a gap between his good and his bad years, and Jeter never had as many bad years as well. Ripken also is all-time career leader in GIDP, for whatever that is worse. Ripken only hit .276 for his career, only a little bit better than the league average mark of .264. He also only hit 30 homers once and never had an OBP over .380 (Jeter did that 8 times). Ripken is a better defensive SS than Jeter, but like Jeter he was downgraded by age and eventually moved to 3B.
 
Ripken might be better than Jeter, but if he is, I don't think he is ahead by that much.  

You are setting parameters such as at least 10 years or discounting others because he was moved from SS which Jeter should have been as well.
 
Your are being a fan boy to paint your HOF binky into a better light. Jeter also made the most outs in a season before and was among the leaders in that catergory for several seasons. Making outs in the worst thing a batter can do. See, now I'm painting too, because I 'm not mentioning that he routinely lead MLB in PA.
 
Jeter won several gold gloves where most advanced metrics had him near the bottom or the worst fielding SS in the game. Your are cherry picking conditions to make him appear better, why? He's a Hall of Famer leave it at that or you are worse than the general media.

 

[Kliq]

You are setting parameters such as at least 10 years or discounting others because he was moved from SS which Jeter should have been as well.
 
Your are being a fan boy to paint your HOF binky into a better light. Jeter also made the most outs in a season before and was among the leaders in that catergory for several seasons. Making outs in the worst thing a batter can do. See, now I'm painting too, because I 'm not mentioning that he routinely lead MLB in PA.
 
Jeter won several gold gloves where most advanced metrics had him near the bottom or the worst fielding SS in the game. Your are cherry picking conditions to make him appear better, why? He's a Hall of Famer leave it at that or you are worse than the general media.

 
 
I added the condition of 10 years at SS only because if you look at the all-time leaders in fielding percentage at SS, there are guys ahead of Jeter who are still currently active and therefore it would be unfair to compare someone with six years at SS to someone with almost 20. If you don't make the compromise that the SS must have 10 years experience, he falls to 28th. 
 
I don't know what you mean by the plate appearances. Did leading the league in plate appearances help Jeter have a better OPS and batting average than Ripken? If I REALLY wanted the cherry pick numbers, I would mention that he is 13th all-time in runs scored and stats like that.
 
I was making the case for Jeter being better than Ripken because previously in the thread, other members have mentioned that Ripken was better than Jeter by a wide margin, and I chose to state that may have not been the case. That is what usually happens on a sports forum? If that makes me a fanboy then so be it. I have never been to Yankee Stadium, never even seen a Yankee game, and I try to go to at least 10 sox games every summer. I have never been accused of being a Yankee's fan or a Jeter lover before, but I guess there is a first time for everything.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

I really don't buy that A-Rod was "clearly the better choice" to play SS between the two. You knew one of them was going to play SS and the other 3B at the time--that's where the opening was.
 
I've never read anything approaching convincing that describes Jeter as the obviously better 3B. I see a circumstance where Rodriguez profiled as the better 3B (while also being the superior SS) of the two, which leaves Jeter, who likely had less positional flexibility being an inferior defender, at the position he's comfortable/ spent the most time at. In fact, I'd argue it only takes a minute to think about it, and likely everyone here would have done the same given the circumstances. Which is why he was probably never really "asked" to move, and the image of him prima-donna'ing out over it is closer to fantasy.
 
I've also never read anything that definitively describes an instance where the Yankees suggested his moving and him refusing.

 

[MiketheCat]

Could a guy who clearly never go to his left when he had extra time at shortstop really play 3B?

 

[Rasputin]

Could a guy who clearly never go to his left when he had extra time at shortstop really play 3B?

 
No, but I'm sure he could have played left or right well enough to keep the bat in the game.

 

[seantoo]

 
 
I added the condition of 10 years at SS only because if you look at the all-time leaders in fielding percentage at SS, there are guys ahead of Jeter who are still currently active and therefore it would be unfair to compare someone with six years at SS to someone with almost 20. If you don't make the compromise that the SS must have 10 years experience, he falls to 28th. 
 
I don't know what you mean by the plate appearances. Did leading the league in plate appearances help Jeter have a better OPS and batting average than Ripken? If I REALLY wanted the cherry pick numbers, I would mention that he is 13th all-time in runs scored and stats like that.
 
I was making the case for Jeter being better than Ripken because previously in the thread, other members have mentioned that Ripken was better than Jeter by a wide margin, and I chose to state that may have not been the case. That is what usually happens on a sports forum? If that makes me a fanboy then so be it. I have never been to Yankee Stadium, never even seen a Yankee game, and I try to go to at least 10 sox games every summer. I have never been accused of being a Yankee's fan or a Jeter lover before, but I guess there is a first time for everything.

I have issue with fielding percentage as any kind of guide for a defensive measure never mind the defining one as you have done here. In fact it's primitive and inaccurate at best and coincidentally, I'm sure for you, it's what Jeter is best at, sure hands. The problem is he's a statue who has to jump in the air anytime he ranges more than 2 steps to his right. It looks good to those that don't know any better.
 
The plate appearances increased the chances of him making an out, see I cherry picked something to make him look bad as you have with making him look good and that's why it should not be done. My bad for not making that apparent enough. Adding conditions and parameters to make your point shows a bias in and of itself.
 
The brainwashing of fans of all teams regarding just how good he is, has been going on since his first year winning a world series in the largest media market in the country. He's a HOF'er, for sure,  but is it not enough, no- they hand him multiple gold gloves when his best defensive season was about average and he won 3 gold gloves when he was actually among the worst by most defensive metrics and the worst in at least one season. Go to google search, type in "Derek Jeter gold glove and joke" and it returns 344,000 hits. That kind of reality bending hero worship is sickening to me.
 
He's not the 'leader' he's been painted as either, selfishly staying at SS, when he wasn't even the best defensive SS on his team. A leader should above all else do what is best for the team to win. He failed. If Jeter did the right thing they may have moved him to the OF when A-Rod joined the team and he never would have won any gold gloves and we'd all view DJ differently now. It's based on a lie because according to the media the sheeple need heroes and maybe their right about that. 

 

[JohntheBaptist]

He's not the 'leader' he's been painted as either, selfishly staying at SS, when he wasn't even the best defensive SS on his team. A leader should above all else do what is best for the team to win. He failed. If Jeter did the right thing they may have moved him to the OF when A-Rod joined the team and he never would have won any gold gloves and we'd all view DJ differently now. It's based on a lie because according to the media the sheeple need heroes and maybe their right about that. 

 
The Yankees traded for Alex Rodriguez when their 3B hurt his leg and opened up a hole. Going into the 2004 season, they had Gary Sheffield, Bernie Williams and Hideki Matsui in the OF--Jeter wasn't playing the OF.
 
The best thing for the Yankees was absolutely playing Rodriguez at 3B and Jeter at SS, even if, at the same time, Rodriguez was also the better defensive SS. Jeter had been a major cog in three world series championships, Rodriguez was eager to please and willing to move, and it made the most sense. This whole thing is a canard.

 

[BoSox Rule]

Jeter still could've moved on his own but the Yankees would only acquire A-Rod if he agreed to play 3rd. Him moving off his position wasn't something that happened out of nowhere it was the only condition for NYY to rescue him from Texas.

 

[Rasputin]

 
The Yankees traded for Alex Rodriguez when their 3B hurt his leg and opened up a hole. Going into the 2004 season, they had Gary Sheffield, Bernie Williams and Hideki Matsui in the OF--Jeter wasn't playing the OF.
 
The best thing for the Yankees was absolutely playing Rodriguez at 3B and Jeter at SS, even if, at the same time, Rodriguez was also the better defensive SS. Jeter had been a major cog in three world series championships, Rodriguez was eager to please and willing to move, and it made the most sense. This whole thing is a canard.

No, the best thing for the Yankees was playing the best defensive SS at SS and moving the other guy but they didn't because they abetted the mythologizing and were chickenshit. And it's only a problem if Jeter doesn't want to move.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

No, the best thing for the Yankees was playing the best defensive SS at SS and moving the other guy but they didn't because they abetted the mythologizing and were chickenshit. And it's only a problem if Jeter doesn't want to move.

It's pretty simple, actually, and they weren't "abetting and mythologizing." That's a li'l purple, isn't it? It's reality on one level, given Rodriguez's overly accommodating nature at the time and the distractions of moving Jeter no matter his take on it would have been obvious.
 
But I wasn't even talking about that. I'll say it again because you didn't seem to catch it--Rodriguez was the better defender at SS. He was also the obvious candidate of the two to play 3B successfully, and since he was already a better defender at SS, it stands to reason we can assume Rodriguez is better at both of the "open" positions in spring 2004. Jeter wasn't playing the OF, and they had Cairo for 2B. Jeter is the lesser in both options, but one is a position the lesser is comfortable with and at least familiar with. If you really think all of that considered, the best thing for the Yankees was to move Jeter to 3B and keep Rodriguez at SS, I don't really know what to tell you. That it's being talked about 10 years later still, with no proof that they ever even asked him to move (had they been dumb enough to think of trying it), or that he was openly refusing anything, is beyond weak.
 
It's this exhaustively referenced and frankly lame entry point to lay into him, and it doesn't even totally make sense.

 

[terrisus]

Rodriguez was the better defender at SS. He was also the obvious candidate of the two to play 3B successfully, and since he was already a better defender at SS, it stands to reason we can assume Rodriguez is better at both of the "open" positions in spring 2004.

 
And, given the option, you want the better defender at the more important defensive position.

 

[Rasputin]

 
And, given the option, you want the better defender at the more important defensive position.

Or, given that Jeter outhit both their DH and their 1B they could have stuck him in RF and had Sheffield DH.

Or he could have moved to second as Cairo sucked.

But he didn't want to do what was right for the team, he wanted to do what was right for him.

 

[terrisus]

Or, given that Jeter outhit both their DH and their 1B they could have stuck him in RF and had Sheffield DH.

Or he could have moved to second as Cairo sucked.

 
Indeed, there are a whole host of options they could have done which would have been better for the team than allowing Jeter to stay at Shortstop and fitting things in around him.
 
But: 
 
 

But he didn't want to do what was right for the team, he wanted to do what was right for him.

 
Exactly.
 
Which is certainly up to him to want that. People can want anything. 
The problem (in terms of the Yankees having an ideal team. Was perfectly fine for everyone else) is that the Yankees allowed it.

 

[seantoo]

My point is, Jeter wasn't a home run hitter. So to compare him with someone like Brett, power gives the edge to Brett. That's where this conversation started.

This is not directed at you terrynever but the DJ yahoo's are insane.
 
This is also part of my problem with the love for Jeter, even comparing Jeter's homerun power to Brett's is tragic. Even a poor comparison once it is made creates an association in the minds of others akin to someone accused of a crime being thought guilty even when innocence is proven later. Many myself included still thought Richard Jewell was guilty of the Olympc bombing in Atlanta. Just stop the insanity.
 
Jeter is a very good a hitter with an ability to work walks but was not anything close to a power hitter, in fact he had very little power.
 
GB vs. DJ- seasons of 30 or more doubles: 14 to 8, seasons of 20 or more homeruns 8 to 3. These are very low totals especially for a man who was consistently among the league leaders in plate appearances and Jeter played during the steroid era in a clubhouse that was rampant with them. To bad baseball reference does not show SLG+ as they do with OPS+.
 
GB's post-season SLG% was about .160 higher than Jeter's so there is no comparison at all, not even in the same county. I realize I'm doing the very thing I'm whining about, so all apologies. I don't hate Derek Jeter but I hate the DJ fluffer wanna-bes. I've said my piece and moving on.

 

[mjm3773]

This is not directed at you terrynever but the DJ yahoo's are insane.
 
This is also part of my problem with the love for Jeter, even comparing Jeter's homerun power to Brett's is tragic. Even a poor comparison once it is made creates an association in the minds of others akin to someone accused of a crime being thought guilty even when innocence is proven later. Many myself included still thought Richard Jewell was guilty of the Olympc bombing in Atlanta. Just stop the insanity.
 
Jeter is a very good a hitter with an ability to work walks but was not anything close to a power hitter, in fact he had very little power.
 
GB vs. DJ- seasons of 30 or more doubles: 14 to 8, seasons of 20 or more homeruns 8 to 3. These are very low totals especially for a man who was consistently among the league leaders in plate appearances and Jeter played during the steroid era in a clubhouse that was rampant with them. To bad baseball reference does not show SLG+ as they do with OPS+.
 
GB's post-season SLG% was about .160 higher than Jeter's so there is no comparison at all, not even in the same county. I realize I'm doing the very thing I'm whining about, so all apologies. I don't hate Derek Jeter but I hate the DJ fluffer wanna-bes. I've said my piece and moving on.

Jeter's SLG+ is 104 (and will likely decrease this year). Brett's was 123.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

This is not directed at you terrynever but the DJ yahoo's are insane.
 
This is also part of my problem with the love for Jeter, even comparing Jeter's homerun power to Brett's is tragic. Even a poor comparison once it is made creates an association in the minds of others akin to someone accused of a crime being thought guilty even when innocence is proven later. Many myself included still thought Richard Jewell was guilty of the Olympc bombing in Atlanta. Just stop the insanity.
 
Jeter is a very good a hitter with an ability to work walks but was not anything close to a power hitter, in fact he had very little power.
 
GB vs. DJ- seasons of 30 or more doubles: 14 to 8, seasons of 20 or more homeruns 8 to 3. These are very low totals especially for a man who was consistently among the league leaders in plate appearances and Jeter played during the steroid era in a clubhouse that was rampant with them. To bad baseball reference does not show SLG+ as they do with OPS+.
 
GB's post-season SLG% was about .160 higher than Jeter's so there is no comparison at all, not even in the same county. I realize I'm doing the very thing I'm whining about, so all apologies. I don't hate Derek Jeter but I hate the DJ fluffer wanna-bes. I've said my piece and moving on.

 
I don't think people were saying Jeter was a power hitter. Terry said that Brett's home run in the ALCS was more magical than anything Jeter hit. I pointed out that Jeter had some big-time homers in the World Series that were pretty magical as well.
 
Then people tried to decide if Brett was a better player or not. I don't know anyone that would ever call Jeter a power hitter.