Derek Fisher to coach Knicks
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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And this is what you get when Phil Jackson is your GM. I think only our savant Stevens got a longer contract as a first time NBA coach and he had proven himself at the college level.
More generally, I dont understand this players turned coaches instantly fiasco. Is Derek Fischer really a better roll of the dice than say Tyron Lue who has been gaining experience recently? You would think after the Marc Jackson flash in the pan and Jason Kidd cluster that almost turned into complete chaos, that GMs would realize the former players need some genuine experience and knowledge before they jump in head first.
From Fischers perspective this must be amazing. He goes from making the league minimum the past few years to a 5/25 that would be a solid deal as a player. Unreal
More generally, I dont understand this players turned coaches instantly fiasco. Is Derek Fischer really a better roll of the dice than say Tyron Lue who has been gaining experience recently? You would think after the Marc Jackson flash in the pan and Jason Kidd cluster that almost turned into complete chaos, that GMs would realize the former players need some genuine experience and knowledge before they jump in head first.
From Fischers perspective this must be amazing. He goes from making the league minimum the past few years to a 5/25 that would be a solid deal as a player. Unreal
That is a ton of money, but when I read earlier that Calipari was offered 80 million by Cleveland I think maybe it's just a sign of the times where the salary of NBA coaches is finally scaling up to the price range it should be. This, of course, doesn't mean that Fisher will be a good coach, but is more a reaction to the money we're seeing get thrown around. The Kidd experience wasn't awfully inspiring, though the ship leveled out at the end; it will be interesting to see how Fisher and Kerr fare in their stints. This could be the beginning of a new era in coaching and coaching hires, or it could completely fizze out.
$5m per is still reserve money for players although up to 6th/7th men from the former salary of 8th/9th which is substantial. I agree the landscape has changed to younger coaches replacing the old retreads which was a long time coming. Today's coaches are typically more in tune with analytics and need to be able to relate to the younger player and all that they have going on around them which the old retreads never had to do......and were often reluctant to change.
The Cal offer carried additional benefits to Cleveland than him simply coaching as he is VERY close to LeBron.......so there were other mitigating factors in his pursuit.
The Cal offer carried additional benefits to Cleveland than him simply coaching as he is VERY close to LeBron.......so there were other mitigating factors in his pursuit.
Some media members are acting like their has been some sort of great chain of success of players turning into head coaches without any previous experience. Mark Jackson won some games, but he also just got fired. Kidd's first few months were a fiasco, and he took a team swollen with contracts to a hapless second round exit. It isn't like that his a great track record.
I think this is just Phil wanting to coach a team, without having to handle any of the other day to day tasks of coaching, and not traveling all over the places to play sometimes meaningless games. Fisher is essentially an overcompensated assistant coach. The overall gameplans, the strategy, the roster, the playing time etc. that stuff is all going to be handled by Phil. He just needed someone he could trust that could run his stuff when he is out playing golf.
I think this is just Phil wanting to coach a team, without having to handle any of the other day to day tasks of coaching, and not traveling all over the places to play sometimes meaningless games. Fisher is essentially an overcompensated assistant coach. The overall gameplans, the strategy, the roster, the playing time etc. that stuff is all going to be handled by Phil. He just needed someone he could trust that could run his stuff when he is out playing golf.
But from reports, a few other teams actually wanted Kerr, including said Knickerbockers.DannyDarwinism said:
I don't agree with this at all. Phil allowed his assistants a ton of input when he was a head coach. Not to mention he isn't even going to be in the country the week leading up to the draft which is simply ridiculous to be going on a 2-week vacation while the draft and player movement surrounding this time is going on.Kliq said:
I had questioned Phil's commitment prior to learning of this.......I'm not questioning it any more. I know.
I'm neither a Mark Jackson nor a Jason Kidd fan, but fired or not Jackson did a good job with the Warriors. And you have to give some credit to Kidd for the way the Nets turned things around, as well.
The broader point is there's not some rule out there about former players v guys like Lue (who I agree seems super smart) who have done other things, too. Kidd seemed like a terrible match for a vet/win now team like the Nets, but at least arguably he did a decent job. M. Jackson's lack of analytics doomed him in Golden State, but in an old school way he probably did the most important thing a coach can do -- motivate his guys to play hard as fuck. He'll get another job quickly.
Fisher seems a better match than either guy. He knows and presumably endorses the system P. Jackon wants installed, so shouldn't be the sort of dysfunction that we saw in Golden State. And, like Jackson, he seems to have the old school gravitas that gets you respected in the NBA. He's also not in a win-now mode, so while HRB is right about Jackson -- he's very much a delegator -- I do think he should have a role in mentoring Fisher while he gets up to speed. Can't say it was a good hire when Fisher is an unknown, but hard for me to see it as a bad hire, as well. Seems pretty well suited for what P. Jackson and the Knicks need: someone who buys into the club's overall plan and system, seems likely to be a good motivator, and intelligent enough to pick up the other stuff (along with a crew of assistants).
Speaking of those assistants, as in Rambis and Walton, the old Lakers have pretty much taken over the Knicks.
The broader point is there's not some rule out there about former players v guys like Lue (who I agree seems super smart) who have done other things, too. Kidd seemed like a terrible match for a vet/win now team like the Nets, but at least arguably he did a decent job. M. Jackson's lack of analytics doomed him in Golden State, but in an old school way he probably did the most important thing a coach can do -- motivate his guys to play hard as fuck. He'll get another job quickly.
Fisher seems a better match than either guy. He knows and presumably endorses the system P. Jackon wants installed, so shouldn't be the sort of dysfunction that we saw in Golden State. And, like Jackson, he seems to have the old school gravitas that gets you respected in the NBA. He's also not in a win-now mode, so while HRB is right about Jackson -- he's very much a delegator -- I do think he should have a role in mentoring Fisher while he gets up to speed. Can't say it was a good hire when Fisher is an unknown, but hard for me to see it as a bad hire, as well. Seems pretty well suited for what P. Jackson and the Knicks need: someone who buys into the club's overall plan and system, seems likely to be a good motivator, and intelligent enough to pick up the other stuff (along with a crew of assistants).
Speaking of those assistants, as in Rambis and Walton, the old Lakers have pretty much taken over the Knicks.
I thought Kidd did a tremendous job last year. He took over a team with zero chemistry and a ton of veteran egos who were all accustomed to having the ball go through them......figured things out on the fly and had the leagues best record over the final 50 games or so.
That ship easily sinks with a weak leader. I hated that team, was not a fan of a rookie coach being able to handle that roster but he really impressed me. Credit where credit is due.
I don't see it with Lue. Of course I'm not there to see what goes on but it's his 5th year or so and he's still on the back end of the asst coaching group on his team. If he had head coaching skill, ability, leadership etc. he'd be on a much faster track toward this goal.
That ship easily sinks with a weak leader. I hated that team, was not a fan of a rookie coach being able to handle that roster but he really impressed me. Credit where credit is due.
I don't see it with Lue. Of course I'm not there to see what goes on but it's his 5th year or so and he's still on the back end of the asst coaching group on his team. If he had head coaching skill, ability, leadership etc. he'd be on a much faster track toward this goal.
Tony - and I think HRB agrees - nails it upthread when he cites the respect that a guy like Fisher has in an NBA huddle. The average NBA head coach needs to be a leader and a good motivator. It helps Fisher that he has played for a long time in the NBA and won championships. Assuming he and Jackson bring in some capable offensive and defensive folks, all he has to do is run the right substitutions and let the other guys call the plays. Its far from clear whether this will actually happen but at the very least, he starts off with some street cred in the locker room.
Also, the team he ultimately gets judged on is not likely the '14-15 squad but more like the '16-17 one. As far as next season goes, all is lost. All is lost.
Also, the team he ultimately gets judged on is not likely the '14-15 squad but more like the '16-17 one. As far as next season goes, all is lost. All is lost.
Kerr was a GM of the Suns for three years and has a legit resume to be a coach. Fisher doesn't have any of that.DannyDarwinism said:
ifmanis5 said:
Well that sort of begs the question now doesn't it? See the post above yours for my general thoughts on the necessary, if not sufficient, qualities needed by an NBA coach.
Phil's top choice was Steve Kerr. And Phil offered him 3 years. Leads me to believe that Fisher's 5 year deal wasn't solely Phil's doing.
Fisher had a ton of leverage. Phil clearly wanted one of "his guys" steering the ship but didn't build a strong stable when he was coach. That contract was what Fisher demanded for ending his playing career and was what it was going to take. Fisher got real lucky with Phil being so desperate and having that relationship with him......like many things in life this was perfect timing and not typical market value.ifmanis5 said:
Would Fisher have turned down 3 yrs./$4 million per?HomeRunBaker said:
I don't understand who the Knicks were bidding against to pay so high. It's one thing to think highly of Fisher and believe that he will be a good coach. It's another to give him 5/25 just to verify this hypothesis.
You really feel spmeone with Derek Fisher's reputation is going to be one of the lowest paid coaches in the league? Anything less than the negotiated 5/25 and Fisher is playing for the Thunder next year which is what the Knicks were bidding against as he had given no signs of retiring this offseason.Sox and Rocks said:
Phil needed Derek......Derek didn't need Phil. That's leverage.
Edit: What difference does the coaches salary have anything to do with anything anyway? The Knicks print money and Fishers salary doesn't count against the salary cap or luxury tax. Last season the Knicks turned an all-time league record $96m in operating profit on $284m in revenue.
Tony C said:
I don't know much Kidd should be credited, as their turnaround happened precisely when Brook Lopez went out for the season and they were forced to finally go small. Assuming Lopez is back early next season, Kidd's going to have the same issues he couldn't figure out for the first few months last year, except with Garnett/Pierce/Johnson another year older.
On the face of it, it looks to me as a terrible hire. My opinion is also colored by his tenure as head of the player's union which was marred by allegation of nepotism and betraying the players' interests.
I won't be too harsh I'll only suggest that you research his time as president a little more diligently because you are as close to 100% off as can be on Fisher's tenure with the players union in confusing him with Billy Hunter. Derek was the one guy who earned the respect of the players in fighting a battle he had little chance of winning.Nick Kaufman said:
Fisher not only had to go head-to-head agaiant the owners money (read: attorneys) but also against his co-lead Billy Hunter who was the one without the players best interests at hand.......not Fisher. Derek showed ridiculously strong leadership skills despite his age/inexperience in gaining the respect from the players while Hunter was the one with his own interests and his families interest ahead of the players.
I don't know whether Fisher will be a great coach or not......I'm guessing while the Knicks have bad players he will lose more often then not until they get better players at which time he'll win more. It's a players league but everything Fisher has ever done has earned him respect from his peers due to his leadership skills.
Edit: You also cannot discount Fisher's relationship with Durant whose contract is up soon.