Defining Athletic Ability in Youth Sports

Heinie Wagner

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I hear a lot of people talk about athletic ability.  How do you define it.  I think most people don't have a definition, it's one of those "I know it when I see it" kind of things.  For example, a swagger or lots of confidence seems to me to be easily confused for athletic ability, the same with aggressiveness and assertiveness.  In youth sports, the older kids in any group typically have the most confidence are tend to be more aggressive and assertive than the others.  That seems to get mistaken for athletic ability because it often translates into results, but those aren't really components of athleticism.
 
I run most of the travel basketball tryouts and see a lot of games and hear a lot said about player's athletic ability and I disagree with much the opinions that I hear. I'm interested in hearing if many people have thought about what defines athleticism in young players.
 

Plantiers Wart

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How young?  I think for younger kids, maybe age 5 or 6, it's mainly a coordination thing.  Just ease of movement.  But some kids grow into that over time...
 
As they get older, I think hand eye ability comes into play also.  The kids who make playing look easy, kids who make the first move faster. 
 
And then, speed at any age.  That's a pretty good thing to start with.   
 
Agree on the aggression and swagger stuff.  Sometimes more atheletic kids will defer to the bigger, more aggressive kids. 
 
This also plays into some sports-mad parents who keep their sons back a year before entering school. 
 

Heinie Wagner

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I was thinking 4th-8th graders so about 9-14 years old.  But it's an interesting topic for any age.
 
Speed is definitely a start.
 
I think whether or not to include hand/eye coordination with athletic ability is an interesting question.  I would include it.  But I think many people overlook it in favor or aggressiveness.
 
I agree about the "sports-mad" parents who keep kids back (or have them repeat a year) with sports as a primary reason.  Being one of the older kids helps a ton at the younger ages, but it's seeming to become less and less of a factor as they get to high school.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One component - in addition to the common ones like speed, strength, jumping ability, hand-eye coordination, is the ease in which predicate movements (footwork, throwing motions, swings, etc.) can be picked up and duplicated.
 

Bleedred

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Endurance, at least at the older end of the spectrum of the ages you listed (6th, 7th, 8th grade) is also a key factor. I know that' not "athleticism" per se, but it's something that any kid can work on. The kids I coach (6th grade travel basketball) who can run without getting winded have a decided advantage over those that don't.
 

Just a bit outside

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Is anticipation an athletic ability of the mind?  Watching my son play basketball, he is 14 now, there are just some kids who see it before everyone else on the court.  They seem to naturally move to the open spot or pick off a pass because they have anticipated what the other player is going to do before it happens.
 
The other athletic skill I would add is lateral quickness.  A lot of kids can run fast in a straight line but then do not have the feet to move side to side and make quick movements.
 

Fred in Lynn

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That's easy: it's the kids who are bigger, faster, and stronger than the others. Maybe what you mean to discuss is skill, which is the refinement of those gifts into functional tools, which is rather rare in kids (and not just in sports). I'm not trying to be a smart guy here.
 

Cumberland Blues

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Fred in Lynn said:
That's easy: it's the kids who are bigger, faster, and stronger than the others. Maybe what you mean to discuss is skill, which is the refinement of those gifts into functional tools, which is rather rare in kids (and not just in sports). I'm not trying to be a smart guy here.
 
But bigger has nothing to do w/ athleticism - and at the younger ages, strength is usually just a function of size - so save for the "faster" part, I have to disagree with this.  Speed, agility, balance, hand-eye coordination - these are all observable athletic traits and it's easy to see which kids have them.  Sure, the bigger kids tend to do well so long as they like to compete and aren't complete oafs - but they'll get outplayed by smaller kids if the smaller kids are better athletes. 
 
I'm coming at this from having watched a ton of 7-9yr old sports the past few years - so I'm on the young end of where HW was asking about.  I think it often just takes longer for the bigger kids to develop the agility/balance components.  As the kids get older - I imagine it gets harder for the smaller kids to overcome the size gap unless they're truly exceptional athletes.
 

Heinie Wagner

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In grades 4-8 or so, bigger, faster, stronger is usually a result of being of older.  Bigger, stronger in 4th grade may be average by 8th grade, did the athleticism of the kid change? 
 
Cumberland - I'm seeing, in 8th grade now with my oldest exactly what you described, in both baseball and basketball.  Some of the smaller kids are more coordinated at a younger age, they get more opportunities and more attention from coaches, they seem to listen to the coaches better because they can translate what a coach says to successful results.  There are bigger kids who fit that description too, but typically (not always) they're the older kids for their grade.  
 
In baseball, it's the jump to the big field that makes a huge difference, the smaller kids struggle, everything is on a different scale.  In basketball, it's a bunch of things, as they get older they all pass better and get the ball inside better.  It's like they start to see another dimension open up and start throwing lob passes and other passes over the defense, which opens up a bunch more opportunities for taller kids.  Kids handle pressing and traps better so it's not just all about the ball handlers and the bigger kids get more coordinated, rebound more, block more shots.  No doubt taller kids are later bloomers.  The 8th grade teams without decent size struggle where in 5th grade, the bigger players didn't matter much.
 

Fred in Lynn

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Cumberland Blues said:
 
But bigger has nothing to do w/ athleticism - and at the younger ages, strength is usually just a function of size - so save for the "faster" part, I have to disagree with this.
The salient part of my reply was that ability ("tools" is the more appropriate description, I think) and skill are two separate things. The former is a component of the latter. Anywho, size, depending on the venue, is most certainly a tool. A 130-lb teenager with flawless technique will not become a competitive offensive lineman. Ability is some kind of grade school math that measures raw resources. I can discern ability with my eyes. Identifying skill, however, is more difficult.
 

Heinie Wagner

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How do you discern ability with your eyes?  I think many are deceived by confidence, assertiveness and aggressiveness and even skill.
 
How do you define that thing that you know when you see?  I want to get to that point because I think most people go with "I know it when I see it" and then they're wrong.
 
For example, acceleration is important, everyone would include speed as part of athletic ability, but deceleration and the ability to stop under control seems to be just as important.  In other words a kid who is a little bit slower, but under control and able to stop quicker has more athletic ability than the kid who has a faster peak speed but can't decelerate as fast or with as much control.
 

Fred in Lynn

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Heinie Wagner said:
How do you discern ability with your eyes?  I think many are deceived by confidence, assertiveness and aggressiveness and even skill.
 
How do you define that thing that you know when you see?  I want to get to that point because I think most people go with "I know it when I see it" and then they're wrong.
 
For example, acceleration is important, everyone would include speed as part of athletic ability, but deceleration and the ability to stop under control seems to be just as important.  In other words a kid who is a little bit slower, but under control and able to stop quicker has more athletic ability than the kid who has a faster peak speed but can't decelerate as fast or with as much control.
I turn my head in a certain direction and open my lids. Ha ha. But seriously, I think your premise is a bit odd. You are effectively looking to quantify someone's tools, not the skill they've developed to employ those tools. The way to put some kind of number on their abilities is to measure it, i.e., use your eyes (watch them, record their speed or agility with a stopwatch, measure how how they can jump, whatever). If you have to eliminate some kids from participating, at least this provides some kind of fair justification for the decision. I think the confidence/swagger/etc. stuff is nonsense. You can't measure that in any way even if it does exist.

If you're not eliminating any kids, then I don't know why you'd care at all about ability. The interest in that case should be in their refinement of their abilities into skills, e.g., turning agility into the skill of the crossover dribble, size into the skill of boxing out, etc.

Edit: Pain to edit with smartphone, but I apologize if it looks like I'm calling you odd.
 

Heinie Wagner

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Think of it like this, you and some other people are evaluating kids for travel basketball.  You want to not just pick the most skilled kids (we start with 5th graders, maybe 4th next season, so realistically, there isn't much skill) but kids with the most athletic potential.  You feel like most people are really bad at this, so you want to put a definition around it.
 
If you say "you'll know it when you see it"  people see confidence, aggressiveness, assertiveness or parts of athletic ability, like acceleration, where other parts are missing, like body control and mistake that for athletic ability.  How do you put a definition on it to help people get better at picking the kids with it?  Because I don't think many people get past "I know it when I see it" and they really don't.
 

Just a bit outside

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Heinie Wagner said:
Think of it like this, you and some other people are evaluating kids for travel basketball.  You want to not just pick the most skilled kids (we start with 5th graders, maybe 4th next season, so realistically, there isn't much skill) but kids with the most athletic potential.  You feel like most people are really bad at this, so you want to put a definition around it.
 
If you say "you'll know it when you see it"  people see confidence, aggressiveness, assertiveness or parts of athletic ability, like acceleration, where other parts are missing, like body control and mistake that for athletic ability.  How do you put a definition on it to help people get better at picking the kids with it?  Because I don't think many people get past "I know it when I see it" and they really don't.
Look at their parents and have them run around and play :)
 

Heinie Wagner

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That seems simple enough but it's not.  Having them run around and play, most people watching are impressed by things which don't lead to picking the players who will make the best team or make the best players in the long run.
 

Fred not Lynn

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I think he meant to have their parents run around and play...
 
(I say that only 50% facetiously. I don't think it's as much about the genetics as it is whether the kid lives in an active environment, though)
 

Heinie Wagner

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LOL - I didn't think to try to read it that way.
 
I run travel basketball tryouts - grades 5-8, and is has been suggested that we ask for mother/father heights on the tryout form.  Some people on our board are vehemently opposed to this.  I'm also certain there would be a lot of stretching of the truth.
 
From what I've seen if the parents are athletic, they tend to encourage a more active, athletic lifestyle.  I feel sorry for kids whose parents never played sports and then don't even expose their kids to a bit of sports.  Still, I definitely agree, genetics aren't everything.  Even twins can be very different when it comes to athletic ability and athletic success.