December General NHL News

MoGator71

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FelixMantilla said:
Never been a Haggs fan, but I think he nailed it here.
 
http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/thorntons-penalty-green-light-nhl-predators
 
See, I kind of disagree with this. In this particular case I felt like Orpik crossed the line, and the hit was punishable. But it's borderline; a lot of people disagreed. But big-picture, Brooks Orpik isn't some useless cementhead like a John Scott, he's a viable physical defenseman, and people do go to games to see clean physical play. At some point you risk tipping the scales too far the other way, and end up with something like what we see in the All Star Game every year. Obviously tons of skill on display and yet the game is steadily heading toward becoming unwatchable. 
 

Fred in Lynn

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See, I kind of disagree with this. In this particular case I felt like Orpik crossed the line, and the hit was punishable. But it's borderline; a lot of people disagreed. But big-picture, Brooks Orpik isn't some useless cementhead like a John Scott, he's a viable physical defenseman, and people do go to games to see clean physical play. At some point you risk tipping the scales too far the other way, and end up with something like what we see in the All Star Game every year. Obviously tons of skill on display and yet the game is steadily heading toward becoming unwatchable. 

I disagree with it because what happened with Thornton (and McSorley since he mentioned him) was a freak outcome. I'm not in agreement or disagreement with the length of Thornton's suspension. I'm refuting the author's claim that precedent could apply to a decision on something that occurs very rarely. I guess that's not completely correct: the next time a player repeatedly challenges another, is rebuffed, only to pull him down and knock him out with a couple of quick punches, he will get at least 15 games.
 

MoGator71

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Did that happen with Steve Moore? I have a vague recollection of him being challenged and declining before the eventual Bertuzzi mugging.
 

ForceAtHome

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MoGator71 said:
Did that happen with Steve Moore? I have a vague recollection of him being challenged and declining before the eventual Bertuzzi mugging.
 
IIRC, Moore fought Cooke pre-Bertuzzi mugging. However, Bertuzzi was still unsatisfied and tried to fight Moore after the first fight. When Bertuzzi couldn't get Moore to fight, well, we all know how that story ends.
 

erfus

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It's speculation but I don't think Thornton's suspension would have been nearly as harsh had Thornton had a face-to-face with Orpik, dropped his gloves and grabbed him, told him to defend himself, and started a fight.  Basically, what he held off doing earlier when he got the roughing penalty. 
 

wnyghost

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erfus said:
It's speculation but I don't think Thornton's suspension would have been nearly as harsh had Thornton had a face-to-face with Orpik, dropped his gloves and grabbed him, told him to defend himself, and started a fight.  Basically, what he held off doing earlier when he got the roughing penalty. 
Of course the suspension would not have been as harsh.   Thornton or anyone on the Bruins could have waited and gone after both Orpik and Neal in the flow of the game.
 
Instead Thornton made a decision that resulted in a terrible injury and news story.  When you factor in Orpik's lack of reaction to the previous Thornton challenge it make the final outcome worse... there is no justification for how this played out.  The issue is and should be that Thornton went out of his way after the play to jump Orpik and Orpik was concussed and carted out on a stretcher.  
 
As much as I like Thornton, what he did was disgraceful and should never happen again.  I am also deeply disappointed that Thornton in appealing the suspension.  His comments in the aftermath do not really mean as much...  
 
I think the NHL finally got something right.  15 games should be the minimum for this type of Goon action.  If this doesn't deserve 15 games... what does? 
 

cshea

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Where is any precedent for the 15 games? You say 15 games should be the minimum, but can you point to any similar cases, or some league rule that states 15 games is the correct punishment for his action? Just because it sounds right and fair doesn't mean the ruling grounded in any fact.

Thornton has every right to appeal. Besides the above, he is also forfeiting over $200k in salary due to the suspension. It doesn't sound like much, but for a guy like Thornton who has plugged along for years at league minimum it is a fairly big chunk of money.
 

The Napkin

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When's the last time someone skated up behind someone, yanked them down from behind, and threw 2 punches while they were on the ice, concussing them in the process?
 
There's never precedent for anything. Until there is.
 
If this is the benchmark going forward I'm all for it.  If it's tough on Thornton then frankly good. Maybe next time he gets pissed off he won't attack someone from behind. Maybe someone else looks at what he got and it prevents something. If it took something like this for the league to get serious about this stuff then good enough. It sucks that it was Thornton and a guy who had never done anything like that before but let's be honest about this - take player X from team Y and have him come up from behind on Boychuk, slam him to the ice, and concuss him while he's on the ice we're screaming that 15 isn't enough. Someone does something like this and it should be tough on them.
 
Sure he has the right to appeal. If it gets down to 10 or 12 good enough, I think that's okay. If it's left at 15 I'm not sure I'm going to be all that upset about it. The key thing for me is that Shanny needs to follow up the next time something like this happens and be just as tough. 2 games isn't getting it done. 5 games isn't getting it done. If it takes 15 to get it done then fine. I'll be fine with that and won't cry many tears for Thornton. I'm sick of the headshots and the suspensions and the crap. Time to get a little heavier with the stick.
 

wnyghost

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cshea said:
Where is any precedent for the 15 games? You say 15 games should be the minimum, but can you point to any similar cases, or some league rule that states 15 games is the correct punishment for his action? Just because it sounds right and fair doesn't mean the ruling grounded in any fact.

Thornton has every right to appeal. Besides the above, he is also forfeiting over $200k in salary due to the suspension. It doesn't sound like much, but for a guy like Thornton who has plugged along for years at league minimum it is a fairly big chunk of monI think
The system of punishment in the NHL is screwed up.  It has been discussed over and over in RMPS - spin the wheel, etc.  For this shit to stop, the punishment needs to deter the action.  Subjectivity should not factor in to the decision... history, intent, provocation, good guy, bad guy, etc... There should not be a matrix system for player discipline and if there was -  this was far outside normal bad behavior.  This was not a hockey play.  It was an embarassment.  A huge black eye for hockey, the Bruins and Thornton. 
 
This should be the precedent if the NHL wants to stop this type of nonsense (after action goon play that results in serious injury).  The real problem is there hasn't been a suspension or fine that deterred Thornton or other from this type of action.  I know it was extremely out of character for Thornton but that doesn't lessen what he did. 
 
We're Bruins fans, we love hockey but we cannot let the laundry get in the way.   A 15 game suspension is steep and Thornton absolutely has the right to appeal.  The fact you mentioned the loss in salary for Thornton makes it a real consequence... maybe this is the first step taken by the league.
 

cshea

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The Napkin said:
When's the last time someone skated up behind someone, yanked them down from behind, and threw 2 punches while they were on the ice, concussing them in the process?
 
There's never precedent for anything. Until there is.
 
If this is the benchmark going forward I'm all for it.  If it's tough on Thornton then frankly good. Maybe next time he gets pissed off he won't attack someone from behind. Maybe someone else looks at what he got and it prevents something. If it took something like this for the league to get serious about this stuff then good enough. It sucks that it was Thornton and a guy who had never done anything like that before but let's be honest about this - take player X from team Y and have him come up from behind on Boychuk, slam him to the ice, and concuss him while he's on the ice we're screaming that 15 isn't enough. Someone does something like this and it should be tough on them.
 
Sure he has the right to appeal. If it gets down to 10 or 12 good enough, I think that's okay. If it's left at 15 I'm not sure I'm going to be all that upset about it. The key thing for me is that Shanny needs to follow up the next time something like this happens and be just as tough. 2 games isn't getting it done. 5 games isn't getting it done. If it takes 15 to get it done then fine. I'll be fine with that and won't cry many tears for Thornton. I'm sick of the headshots and the suspensions and the crap. Time to get a little heavier with the stick.
I agree with everything here. I was replying to the comment made about being "deeply disappointed" in Thornton for appealing.
 

MoGator71

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Brayden Schenn skated this morning and as of the morning skate Craig Berube said he's playing tonight. Schenn had x-rays on his neck but no concussion baseline testing. It amazes me that after Pronger, and Lappy, and Gagne, and Primeau, and Lindros, and any number of other guys that the Flyers continue to be so cavalier about head injuries and concussions. I mean not that it's necessarily indicative of anything, but Schenn certainly looked concussed. Maybe he wasn't, but didn't his reactions at least warrant a test?
 
It's like this medical staff is still in the 1970s. Constantly rushing guys back, and if they won't play ball they're generally labeled a malcontent/pussy and shipped out. I should pick a new team.
 

The Napkin

wise ass al kaprielian
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Wow. That's shocking to Me Mo.
The way he fell to the ice 2 or 3 times trying to skate off and no concussion test? That's bordering on malpractice imho.
 

TheRealness

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MoGator71 said:
Brayden Schenn skated this morning and as of the morning skate Craig Berube said he's playing tonight. Schenn had x-rays on his neck but no concussion baseline testing. It amazes me that after Pronger, and Lappy, and Gagne, and Primeau, and Lindros, and any number of other guys that the Flyers continue to be so cavalier about head injuries and concussions. I mean not that it's necessarily indicative of anything, but Schenn certainly looked concussed. Maybe he wasn't, but didn't his reactions at least warrant a test?
 
It's like this medical staff is still in the 1970s. Constantly rushing guys back, and if they won't play ball they're generally labeled a malcontent/pussy and shipped out. I should pick a new team.
 
Has Thomas Gill been hired by the Flyers yet? If so, they should get on that, he'd fit right in.
 

soxhop411

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No supplemental discipline for Capitals' Tom Wilson for hit Tuesday on Flyers' Brayden Schenn. Video explanation: http://t.co/XfBRdT7uOT
 

Nuf Ced

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After their game last night against Boston, the Buffalo Sabres announced the acquisition of Linus Omark from the Edmonton Oilers for a conditional 6th round pick.
 
Omark did not want to play for the Oil's AHL team anymore and was threatening to go back to Sweden. A team lacking in scoring talent like the Sabres have nothing to lose by giving him a shot.
 

MoGator71

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TheShynessClinic said:
reck·less
 adjective \ˈre-kləs\

: not showing proper concern about the possible bad results of your actions
 
 

Well no shit, asshole.
 
What would Cooke know about reckless? It's not reckless if it's intentional.
 
I'm a little surprised Wilson didn't get a game or 2. Not that I think that hit was especially dirty, but I feel like it was one of those "vulnerable area" hits that the league wants to eliminate. But then again, since Schenn is apparently fine and played last night, of course there's no suspension.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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This won't not be hilarious.

Bob McKenzie (@TSNBobMcKenzie)
28 Dec 2013 9:23 AM AST
"@DarrenDreger: Aside from couple of details, Phaneuf and TOR close on 7 x $7 mil extension."No Move/No Trade language still being worked on
 

Ed Hillel

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How in the fuck? What? The only thing I have is Cuthbert is giving some exec a little somethin' on the side.
 

Red Right Ankle

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It looks like a guy unsuccessfully battling explosive diarrhea, finally admitting that he shat all the way up his own back and that he needs to change his shirt and then continuing the photo series while the photographer and crew giggle in his face about it.
 

MoGator71

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MiracleOfO2704 said:
This won't not be hilarious.
I'd like to personally thank the Leafs for saving Homer from himself. 
 
I actually think the hammering of Phaneuf has almost gotten to the point where he's actually underrated as a player, but he's still not a guy I want to give a max deal to. 
 

MiracleOfO2704

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The funny part is, had he been a Flyer, I think most of us would just shake our heads and say "typical Holmgren." But the Leafs seemed like they were getting past deals like this.

That said, watch Philly give up Couturier and a 1st for him at the draft.
 

Blacken

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It's an overpay, but the kind of overpay you can live with. Phaneuf is still a very good defenseman and the cap's going up plenty over that seven year stretch.
 

MoGator71

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MiracleOfO2704 said:
The funny part is, had he been a Flyer, I think most of us would just shake our heads and say "typical Holmgren." But the Leafs seemed like they were getting past deals like this.

That said, watch Philly give up Couturier and a 1st for him at the draft.
 
David Clarkson says "Holla!" 
 
And that second part is just too scary for words. They got linked to Bouwmeester too much for my liking, Phaneuf is JBo all over again.
 

TSC

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Phaneuf deal done, according to TSN
 
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=440077
 
 
On the eve of the NHL's Winter Classic, the Toronto Maple Leafs have announced the signing of captain Dion Phaneuf to a seven-year contract extension.
TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger reported over the weekend that the deal pays him a total of $49 million.
 
Let me reiterate what I said earlier about this deal - lololololololololol.
 

 

 
 

cshea

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Phaneuf is so overrated. Good luck with that one, Toronto.

On the topic, 24/7 has made him look like a shitty captain. I've only watched the first 2 episodes, but he seems pretty quiet in the room and he got smacked down pretty good by Crosby when they were semi-trash talking at center ice. Phaneuf had no real comeback to Sid's "Kadri is a fucking joke!" discussion.
 

Jack Sox

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Blacken said:
It's an overpay, but the kind of overpay you can live with. Phaneuf is still a very good defenseman and the cap's going up plenty over that seven year stretch.
 
Curious why you say this. I don't disagree that you can live with this type of contract for a pretty durable D-man who can log 25 minutes a game, especially when considering, as you said, the cap increase throughout the duration of the deal. But for my money, this guy is one of the most boneheaded "good" players out there. Any time I watch him, he's making a pile of pretty inexcusable mistakes in his own zone. As a Bruins fan, I am happy a division rival will be paying this guy to be their top defensemen for the next 7 years.  
 

Blacken

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Jack Sox said:
Curious why you say this. I don't disagree that you can live with this type of contract for a pretty durable D-man who can log 25 minutes a game, especially when considering, as you said, the cap increase throughout the duration of the deal. But for my money, this guy is one of the most boneheaded "good" players out there. Any time I watch him, he's making a pile of pretty inexcusable mistakes in his own zone. As a Bruins fan, I am happy a division rival will be paying this guy to be their top defensemen for the next 7 years.
I think our general evaluation of top defensemen is somewhat spoiled by having Chara around. Phaneuf isn't particularly better or worse than the #1's on a lot of teams. I'm glad the Bruins aren't paying him that money, but it's pretty defensible.
 

MoGator71

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He's not terrible by any means. I'm curious where he'd rank if we started ranking defensemen around the NHL. I'd guess without sitting down and trying to come up with a list that he's probably not a top-10 guy but he probably is a top-20 guy right now. That makes him pretty solidly a "#1 d-man" by definition.
 
 
cshea said:
Phaneuf is so overrated. Good luck with that one, Toronto.

On the topic, 24/7 has made him look like a shitty captain. I've only watched the first 2 episodes, but he seems pretty quiet in the room and he got smacked down pretty good by Crosby when they were semi-trash talking at center ice. Phaneuf had no real comeback to Sid's "Kadri is a fucking joke!" discussion.
 
That's a pretty shitty thing to trash-talk somebody with. At least Sean Avery chirped Phaneuf about Phaneuf...not sure what I'd have responded with, maybe "at least he never punched anybody in the nuts", something like that. 
 

ForceAtHome

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cshea said:
Phaneuf is so overrated. Good luck with that one, Toronto.

On the topic, 24/7 has made him look like a shitty captain. I've only watched the first 2 episodes, but he seems pretty quiet in the room and he got smacked down pretty good by Crosby when they were semi-trash talking at center ice. Phaneuf had no real comeback to Sid's "Kadri is a fucking joke!" discussion.
 
I haven't gotten that vibe at all. Seems like he works hard, wants to win, and is a relatively quiet lead by example kind of guy. Nothing wrong with that...
 

EJPats

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I haven't gotten that vibe at all. Seems like he works hard, wants to win, and is a relatively quiet lead by example kind of guy. Nothing wrong with that...

Agreed. I think he comes across as a decent captain and he seemed to handle Sid's petulance in a very professional manner. Believe me, I was really hoping to hate him, but that hasn't been the case.
 

Fred in Lynn

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... he got smacked down pretty good by Crosby when they were semi-trash talking at center ice. Phaneuf had no real comeback to Sid's "Kadri is a fucking joke!" discussion.

I'm not so certain that saying nothing to a minor child throwing a fit is a weakness.
 

Dummy Hoy

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Word around the game is that Phaneuf is one of those Captains who when he opens his mouth, a lot of eye rolls commence.

I think calling him a top 20 Dman is probably fair, yet he's at his peak and certainly isn't getting better. I think it's a stupid deal, but they'll get 3-4 years of value out of it.
 

MoGator71

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Yea, and considering the cap will likely continue to rise I'm not sure the tail end of it will be much of a problem. He'll be 36 when the deal expires, either he'll still be reasonably effective or he'll be hurt and they'll just LTIR him and pay him. All the Leafs care about is the cap hit anyway.
 

jcaz

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Toronto has a whack of money tied up in Kessel - $8M, Phaneuf - $7M, Clarkson - $5.25M and Liles - $3.875;  They have another $20M tied up in another 5 guys.  That's $44M for 9 guys for next year when they'll have 7 UFAs and 5 RFAs.  Even if the cap goes to $71M, they're not going to be in the best situation to improve.  The only young guys the team's really happy with are Morgan Reilly and to a lesser extent Jerry D'amigo who may be coming into his own.
 
I think the Phaneuf deal is ridiculous, but not as bad as the Clarkson numbers.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Clarkson's deal is awful - and they'll have to pay Kadri/Gardiner/Franson.

Burke gave them a gift with the Schenn/JVR deal, they do not have a rosy outlook capwise.
 

MoGator71

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PedroSpecialK said:
Clarkson's deal is awful - and they'll have to pay Kadri/Gardiner/Franson.

Burke gave them a gift with the Schenn/JVR deal, they do not have a rosy outlook capwise.
 
Don't remind me. Luke isn't as bad as his rep, but he's not a good skater and doesn't have great instincts so he needs to play with a responsible partner. Lately his partner's been...broken Andrej Meszaros. "Disaster" is putting it kindly.
 
They definitely need to move some guys, Liles will go and they're apparently shopping Kadri. But it's not so much the Phaneuf deal itself but that deal plus the Clarkson deal. You can overpay a guy but when you start overpaying multiple guys with no youth coming through the pipeline, then you're screwed.