DD fired

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,587
I think there have been a number of different guiding philosophies over the years. I believe they themselves acknowledged that at the time of the Lester negotiations they were trying to limit long-term deals for older pitchers and that they changed their minds on that. I thought Dombrowski rather aggressively trading prospects represented a change in philosophy.

I don’t know if signing Carl Crawford, who was nothing like the sort of player they typically acquired during the Theo years Part I or Part II, was a change in philosophy or just insanity.
It was horrible. Really, the Adrian Gonzalez trade was a pretty horrible trade at the time and it felt like rearranging the cards for the sake of it (just sign Adrian Beltre damnit and hold on to Rizzo!!!!)
There was something in the Francona book about how Tom Werner would tell the baseball ops folks that the team needed to "win in more exciting fashion". And that seemed to be linked to the Crawford signing.

Theo had been coveting Gonzalez for a long time, as he felt his swing was built perfectly for Fenway. Actually, he was correct. Where Theo went wrong was (a) ignoring the risk of injury; (b) the impact on roster construction; and (c) signing Crawford on top of everything else. Thankfully, Cherington rescued us by signing Nick Punto the following offseason.
 

chawson

Well-Known Member
Bronze Supporter
Aug 1, 2006
1,555
the idea with Theo is he'd be fired after this season. the Cubs are struggling just to get in as the 2nd WC in a division they should have won handily with the Brewers reverting to having no pitching.

I say no thanks to Theo... the Heyward deal was horrible, Carl Crawford II just about. Jon Lester is tailing off fast, Yu Darvish looks like another albatross from year 1 too.

let's not forget he gave up a ransom for Chapman - it's all about knowing which guys to sell high and buy low on, and Gleyber Torres was not the guy to sell high on. fans will say the WS was worth so much for Chapman, but we don't know just how much the odds really changed for them with Chapman or without. I don't think 2016 Chapman was 2013 Koji out there, especially with Maddon using him every game that October.
It’s not only about knowing who to sell high and buy low on, its being able to predict massive changes in the sport, the fallout from the CBA, and the design of the baseball itself.

The value Theo placed on Jason Heyward seemed to reflect the semi-dead ball era that was 2010-2015. You could maybe make a case that’s true for Carl Crawford too. It doesn’t explain Heyward’s lack of development as a hitter, but he was much more valuable when the game revolved around speed and defense.

It’s probably true a good part of Theo and Cherington’s FO strategy for awhile was to put a premium on athleticism and find guys who could thrive in a post-steroids game.
 
Last edited:

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
10,770
Maine
Is really correct the team wants to get below the base cap? That doesn't seem believable, and sounds like it could be incorrect reporting at this stage.
Only going on what Speier reported (quoted by DeadlySplinter upthread). He said under the cap to reset the penalties. That only happens if they are under the base cap, which means shaving close to $50M off the payroll they've sported the last couple seasons. I don't think they're aiming to do it in the next year or two, but if they want to do it by 2022 or so, those long term deals affect their ability to do it.
 

CoolPapaBellhorn

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
1,031
Medfield
And if they do a full tear down, how bad do the next two years end up record-wise?
Would it be that much worse than '14-'15, when they were actually trying? The "Boston won't stand for a re-build" narrative seems a bit overblown to me. They've had down stretches and the valuation still goes up every year.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
18,537
I think even if they get below certain tiers of the luxury tax, the built up penalties continue until they are under entirely for one season. I know the Yanks reset within the past 3 years.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
11,859
That being said, his firing doesn't stun me, and I suspect he tied his fate to the extension he gave Sale. That *had* to work, and year one (which obviously isn't even year one of the actual extension) has not worked. Like, at all. I'm not treading any new ground here, but obviously the calculus for this franchise's future has changed radically over just a few months. Dombrowski is not best suited to lead the baseball operation for what needs to be done for 2020 and beyond. It's not exactly a unique tale, happens all the time.
This. The Chris Sale extension is a “I stake my job on this decision” decision. That was a colossally dumb risk. If you take that risk, you have to be right. Sale had not held up over a full season in 2017, he broke down even earlier in 2018, and there was just no reason to do it. At all.

DD was brought in to build a team that would compete every year. With $150M payroll JH might put up with some volatility in season to season results but for $225M you better compete every year. By that measure he failed, and in pretty spectacular fashion. Not only did they fail to compete this year, he positioned them to be decidedly worse next year. Cora being shocked and surprised (if he was being truthful) is the only thing that surprised and disappointed me...but it does explain the lack of urgency surrounding the club all year.
This too. Excellent synopsis. They have the highest payroll in the game and they’re going to finish 7th in the AL. He gave Eovaldi more than twice what the Rangers paid Lance Lynn, 70% more on a per year basis. In what projection system was Eovaldi supposed to end up twice as valuable as Lance Lynn over the next 3 years?

I’m not saying, “Oh, I would ha e signed Lance Lynn instead.” Who knows if he’d have come here. But NO PITCHER got that much last winter. Who knows, maybe 4-$68 would have gotten Keuchel in February. Clearly, Dombrowski totally misread last season’s market and wildly overpaid relative to what would have been the next best ex-ante option. And that’s all on him.

I don't think it's necessarily "ownership." It could be one or two people, like subordinates to Kennedy, e.g.
As someone else said above, it sounds like a lot of this is second hand.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,587
DD was brought in to build a team that would compete every year. With $150M payroll JH might put up with some volatility in season to season results but for $225M you better compete every year. By that measure he failed, and in pretty spectacular fashion. Not only did they fail to compete this year, he positioned them to be decidedly worse next year. Cora being shocked and surprised (if he was being truthful) is the only thing that surprised and disappointed me...but it does explain the lack of urgency surrounding the club all year.
Cora is being politically correct. Just like players that say they are "shocked and surprised" when the manager is let go. It's the right thing to say, and it has little to do with how the team performed this past season. Injuries and regression to the starting pitching meant a lot more.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,949
Twin Cities
I recognize that we're at slightly different stages of team development, but the Yankees had a chance to go all-in for this season and sign Manny Machado, and they didn't. From all accounts, they had a line they were willing to go to and didn't do what DD did for Price - move past it to pay top dollar. Instead, they showed some fiscal restraint and built depth by acquiring two significantly less expensive pieces, Tulo and LeMahieu, which worked out well overall while also preserving their financial flexibility.

DD spent nearly all of his available budget again this offseason to resign Eo, when he could have instead signed a far less expensive veteran SP or two and preserved some flexibility for in-season moves. Same with Pearce. I always assumed these decisions were deliberate and that there was consensus to go this route, for these players, and to extend Sale as well, knowing there'd be some consequences and a possible reset in the near future.

Maybe there wasn't a consensus. Maybe DD won an internal disagreement and is paying for it, now that his plan failed. Who knows? But if everyone was on the same page at the time these decisions were made, it does seem odd to me that he would get canned before the season has even ended.
 

chawson

Well-Known Member
Bronze Supporter
Aug 1, 2006
1,555
Cherington made a ton of moves leading into the 2013 season and everyone of them hit. After that, almost all of them missed.
The Punto trade buys him enough goodwill to make this functionally true, but the Bailey, Melancon, and Scutaro deals were all pretty bad, as was the Youkilis/Middlebrooks debacle.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
18,537
Gammons has some scathing commentary / quotes.


One former Red Sox front office member who is now in the National League came to a Saturday afternoon game in April and said, “these guys just got their World Series rings, and everyone’s miserable. It’s unbelievable.” Another former member of the inner circle said last month, “I hate all that I hear about that place. It should be great. But it seems like everyone wants to leave.”
He also outright sidesteps any notion that DD deserves credit for the X extension:

Thankfully, their 2019 MVP, Xander Bogaerts, did his six-year, $120 million extension with VP Raquel Ferreira, who is taking on an expanded role in the transition and is one of the most respected people in the game. Mookie might stay if she were the GM.
 

santadevil

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
3,871
Saskatchestan
MLB Now discussion compares it to when he left Detroit for Boston in 2015. Sale’s contract = Cabrera’s and etc. just a reminder that Detroit is 42-100 right now.
He's not leaving this team with nearly the mess that was left in Detroit.
And Sale and Miggy contracts aren't really comparable, other than they are comparable for the next 4 years. I'm betting Sale will be worth a lot more than Miggy over those next 4 years.


And if they do a full tear down, how bad do the next two years end up record-wise?
Part of rooting for the laundry I guess. We all remember how crappy was 2012 after the 2011 collapse? It was terrible to watch and then we got 2013!
But I don't expect a full teardown. They have one more year with Betts and I imagine that we'll get better starting pitching performances in 2020 compared to this year.
They'll definitely be competitive next year

This ownership group has a lot of rope with me. 4 titles in 15 years gives them a lot of goodwill to use still
 

BoSox Rule

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,798
Gammons has some scathing commentary / quotes.




He also outright sidesteps any notion that DD deserves credit for the X extension:
I’ll forget about this by next year, but it’s outright pathetic they feel the need to plant this shit any time anybody is released, traded, signs somewhere else, or is fired.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
18,537
yeah, ownership looks pretty awful today especially not having any media availability. this is something that needs more attention.

if he was fired because of Sale/Eovaldi deals, say it outright, don't go through reporters. maybe they're embarrassed DD convinced them the deals were OK.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,587
The Punto trade buys him enough goodwill to make this functionally true, but the Bailey, Melancon, and Scutaro deals were all pretty bad, as was the Youkilis/Middlebrooks debacle.
Melancon did net us Brock Holt!, so it's not all bad. Scutaro wasn't really a major piece when he was traded away, although his departure did put a stop to a Fenway chant. And Cherington had nothing to do with Youkilis aging or Middlebrooks flaming out after a promising start.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,587
I’ll forget about this by next year, but it’s outright pathetic they feel the need to plant this shit any time anybody is released, traded, signs somewhere else, or is fired.
The quotes were from former front office personnel who were no longer with the team. So not sure why the current front office should be blamed for planting a story. Gammons still has connections around the league.
 

Average Game James

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,138
While it feels harsh less than 12 months from a World Series title, I can’t say I’m overly disappointed, nor am I overly surprised ownership doesn’t view DD as the right GM for the team as presently positioned.

DD is clearly an exceptionally skilled talent evaluator. As several others have pointed out, while he left the farm system bare, there aren’t many traded prospects who’ve gone on to light the world on fire (while simultaneously refusing to trade Devers or Benny).

But, while he’s great at identifying the pieces, he’s less skilled and/or disciplined at determining value. Basically, he picks the best car, but then goes to the nearest dealer and pays sticker price.

Given a wealth of resources, he’s an excellent GM to get a team over the top. In a world where getting under the luxury tax matters though, finding 80% of the production for 40% of the cost matters, and DD hasn’t shown this to be a core strength. Absent an internal promotion like Romero or Ferreira, I’d favor hiring out of a front office that has had to be creative in assembling talent like Oakland or Tampa.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
10,770
Maine
But, while he’s great at identifying the pieces, he’s less skilled and/or disciplined at determining value. Basically, he picks the best car, but then goes to the nearest dealer and pays sticker price.
Was that really the case though? He did it with Price, no question. But who else did he acquire that fits that description? JD Martinez certainly was the "best car" but DD waited him out and signed him for a steal of a deal (opt-outs not withstanding) compared to what was initially expected. I suppose one might say trades like Kimbrel and Sale were "sticker price" but the cost also wasn't anything detrimental, especially if we're going to give him credit for picking the right prospects to keep and not giving away his own version of Bagwell for Anderson.
 

Average Game James

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,138
Was that really the case though? He did it with Price, no question. But who else did he acquire that fits that description? JD Martinez certainly was the "best car" but DD waited him out and signed him for a steal of a deal (opt-outs not withstanding) compared to what was initially expected. I suppose one might say trades like Kimbrel and Sale were "sticker price" but the cost also wasn't anything detrimental, especially if we're going to give him credit for picking the right prospects to keep and not giving away his own version of Bagwell for Anderson.
I had in mind Sale (both acquisition and extension), Price, Kimbrel, Eovaldi... and I’m not suggesting that any of those deals was particularly terrible - there’s nothing wrong with paying fair market value when you have the resources. I give him all the credit in the world for trading the right prospects and keeping the right ones.

But, it’s a different reality for the Sox going forward. There isn’t the budget in dollars or prospects for DD’s approach to team building. And absent JD Martinez, where DD correctly realized he was literally the only bidder, it’s hard to identify much in the way of “value” signings in recent years.
 

chawson

Well-Known Member
Bronze Supporter
Aug 1, 2006
1,555
DD spent nearly all of his available budget again this offseason to resign Eo, when he could have instead signed a far less expensive veteran SP or two and preserved some flexibility for in-season moves. Same with Pearce. I always assumed these decisions were deliberate and that there was consensus to go this route, for these players, and to extend Sale as well, knowing there'd be some consequences and a possible reset in the near future.
Sure, but exactly which “less expensive veteran SP or two” should he have signed? The only free agent starters to have had even a modicum of success (>1 bWAR) in 2019 have been Corbin, Morton, Fiers, Lynn, Miley, Wainwright, Keuchel, Gio Gonzalez and Anibal Sanchez.

I’m not especially convinced the latter four would have been as successful in the AL East as they have in the NL. Miley was not coming back. Morton was a good bet to perform well. Fiers is benefiting from that Oakland voodoo (which, if I had to guess, will also resurrect Porcello next year). You could make a revisionist case that Sale’s money could have gone to Corbin, but it would have put us over the second threshold. Did anyone think Lance Lynn would have the year he’s had?

Plus, we have no idea that Dombrowski didn’t inquire into signing any them only to learn they weren’t interested. If they weren’t going to trade from the major league roster, then the Eovaldi signing still makes a lot of sense. Not acquiring a pitcher wasn’t really a reasonable option.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
44,681
I continue to think that BOS had to sign Eovaldi as a Yankee killer, as NY's kryptonite is righties who can hit 100 and he killed them last year. Also it's worth noting that the team who BOS outbid for him was HOU, who have proven the last few years that they know the right pitchers to target.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
11,859
Sure, but exactly which “less expensive veteran SP or two” should he have signed? The only free agent starters to have had even a modicum of success (>1 bWAR) in 2019 have been Corbin, Morton, Fiers, Lynn, Miley, Wainwright, Keuchel, Gio Gonzalez and Anibal Sanchez.

I’m not especially convinced the latter four would have been as successful in the AL East as they have in the NL. Miley was not coming back. Morton was a good bet to perform well. Fiers is benefiting from that Oakland voodoo (which, if I had to guess, will also resurrect Porcello next year). You could make a revisionist case that Sale’s money could have gone to Corbin, but it would have put us over the second threshold. Did anyone think Lance Lynn would have the year he’s had?

Plus, we have no idea that Dombrowski didn’t inquire into signing any them only to learn they weren’t interested. If they weren’t going to trade from the major league roster, then the Eovaldi signing still makes a lot of sense. Not acquiring a pitcher wasn’t really a reasonable option.
We know that none of those pitchers got even so much as 1/2 what DD committed to Eovaldi, who had thrown 111 innings combined over the previous 3 seasons.

Folks here are simultaneously excusing the lack of apparent talent in the farm system by saying 2017 draftees can’t be judged yet (which is reasonable) and then saying Dombrowski hasn’t given up much other than Moncada in trades.

I largely agree that the big trades DD made were roughly fair market value and wouldn’t undo them. But, Manuel Margot is still just 23 years old and has improved a bunch this year, perhaps getting ready to break out. Michael Kopech had reached the majors at age 22 when he got hurt, based on analyzing current outcomes, he’s more likely than not to recover from TJS and have a fine career. Logan Allen has also reached the majors at 22. Ty Buttrey looks like a bullpen mainstay.

He made trades that were good for both teams. Cashman gets teams to take overhyped nonprospects with uncles who played major league baseball for budding stars.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
9,537
Miami (oh, Miami!)
We know that none of those pitchers got even so much as 1/2 what DD committed to Eovaldi, who had thrown 111 innings combined over the previous 3 seasons.

Folks here are simultaneously excusing the lack of apparent talent in the farm system by saying 2017 draftees can’t be judged yet (which is reasonable) and then saying Dombrowski hasn’t given up much other than Moncada in trades.

I largely agree that the big trades DD made were roughly fair market value and wouldn’t undo them. But, Manuel Margot is still just 23 years old and has improved a bunch this year, perhaps getting ready to break out. Michael Kopech had reached the majors at age 22 when he got hurt, based on analyzing current outcomes, he’s more likely than not to recover from TJS and have a fine career. Logan Allen has also reached the majors at 22. Ty Buttrey looks like a bullpen mainstay.

He made trades that were good for both teams. Cashman gets teams to take overhyped nonprospects with uncles who played major league baseball for budding stars.
Interestingly enough Margot was good for 40+ saves in 2018, including 4 in the post-season. Oh wait, he wasn't. Point being that "fair market" does not exist in a vacuum.
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
18,065
Not that I lose sleep over millionaire sports execs but it has to be absolutely brutal to go from the penthouse to the outhouse that fast...publicly.
 

pantsparty

Member
SoSH Member
May 2, 2011
352
It's not really a big deal that they don't have an immediate replacement, right? Trade deadline has come and gone, off-season signings are months away. Is a GM/PoBO really even doing anything right now besides reading scouting reports from the recently concluded minor league teams?
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
11,859
Interestingly enough Margot was good for 40+ saves in 2018, including 4 in the post-season. Oh wait, he wasn't. Point being that "fair market" does not exist in a vacuum.
Again, I’m not arguing that you don’t make the trade. Kimbrel did what we acquired him to do (in the regular season anyway). I’m just pushing back at the multiple people who’ e Posted something like “Nobody except Moncada will ever be any good anyway.”
 

Bosox1528

lurker
Dec 22, 2017
152
I think this is a mistake of epic proportions. And I think the "he's not the right guy for the future" or whatever is a load of crap. Dombrowski did an incredible job rebuilding the Expos and the Marlins and the Tigers. Acting like he's just some goon who can throw prospects at teams for stars is a lie.

And another ridiculous thing is all the complaining about the prospect trades. Dombrowski managed to get good players, and not trade that much. Moncada is the only player we could even use on our team right now that he traded, and instead of him, we got Chris Sale and a World Series Championship. Bizarrely, people here seem to give lots of credit to Ben Cherington for holding onto prospects. Not drafting them or anything (Theo did most of that), just holding onto them. It's even more bizarre when you realize that Ben Cherington held on to every prospect. That's not some genius move, that's just letting the team be in the cellar for 3/4 years because you won't give up a prospect. Dombrowski, on the other hand, gets zero credit for holding onto Devers and Benintendi, yet gets derided for trading away.... Anderson Espinoza? Michael Kopech? Those guys sure are looking great. In Dombrowski's 4 years here, he won the division three times, won the world series with maybe the best Red Sox team ever, and in this year, his "bad" year, we're still an above .500 team, who, according to metrics like BaseRuns, are much better than our record. Dombrowski's good at building championship contenders, he's good at rebuilding, he's good period. And it's ridiculous that we fired him, and disgusting that ownership gave him the Tito treatment
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
27,831
The Prospect Industrial Complex was greatly annoyed by DDs’ trading the prospects he did. That they have amounted to nothing much exponentially increased the level of annoyance.
 

Moosbrugger

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
291
wrong side of the bay
Yoán Moncada may be great. But I question whether the team or the fan base would have been cool watching him strike out 217 times in 2018. He would have been dealt for pennies on the dollar.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
11,859
I think focusing on the trades is the wrong focus. We came out ahead in the trades, judging by what could be expected at the time. The only two trades I criticized in real time were Shaw and Buttrey. The others were “give something to get something” and are working out well for both teams. People who think only Moncada is going to amount to anything are delirious, however. Margot, Kopech, and Allen are still young enough to be stud prospects.

If Dombrowski’s firing is about performance, its about the Sale extension and the Eovaldi deal, and the decision to sign Eovaldi instead of a relief ace with the available payroll last offseason.

But, given that everyone is telling you the reason for the firing was his autocratic and insular management style, I don’t know why you wouldn’t take that to the bank.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,587
We know that none of those pitchers got even so much as 1/2 what DD committed to Eovaldi, who had thrown 111 innings combined over the previous 3 seasons.

Folks here are simultaneously excusing the lack of apparent talent in the farm system by saying 2017 draftees can’t be judged yet (which is reasonable) and then saying Dombrowski hasn’t given up much other than Moncada in trades.

I largely agree that the big trades DD made were roughly fair market value and wouldn’t undo them. But, Manuel Margot is still just 23 years old and has improved a bunch this year, perhaps getting ready to break out. Michael Kopech had reached the majors at age 22 when he got hurt, based on analyzing current outcomes, he’s more likely than not to recover from TJS and have a fine career. Logan Allen has also reached the majors at 22. Ty Buttrey looks like a bullpen mainstay.

He made trades that were good for both teams. Cashman gets teams to take overhyped nonprospects with uncles who played major league baseball for budding stars.
I must quibble with your assessment of Margot. His OPS+ of 86 is identical to last year's, and is actually one point lower than JBJ's. His overall fWAR numbers have improved, but his bWAR is essentially the same. The former shows marked improvement in his defense (f-dWAR jumps from 2.9 to 6.7), while the latter shows a slip (b-dWAR 1.2 to 0.3). He is also one week away from turning 25.

Yes, there may be some late bloomers, as well as guys that break out when they get healthy (e.g., Kopech). But that doesn't change the fact most of the prospect talent traded away was essentially surplus.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
18,537
He made trades that were good for both teams. Cashman gets teams to take overhyped nonprospects with uncles who played major league baseball for budding stars.
any consistent examples? I like to think Aaron Hicks, Gio Urshela, Luke Voit, etc. were just ridiculously good luck for the Yanks that will balance out soon.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
18,537
I think this is a mistake of epic proportions. And I think the "he's not the right guy for the future" or whatever is a load of crap. Dombrowski did an incredible job rebuilding the Expos and the Marlins and the Tigers. Acting like he's just some goon who can throw prospects at teams for stars is a lie.
I'm definitely concerned we're going to swing back to a Cherington-type and hoard the prospects too much again. based on what I've read (hopefully not too much spinning the narrative / smearing DD going on), it seems several FO employees still are wed to Cherington's mentality.
 
Last edited:

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
27,831
any consistent examples? I like to think Aaron Hicks, Gio Urshela, Luke Voit, etc. were just ridiculously good luck for the Yanks that will balance out soon.
Cashman is an unfair comp, to anyone really. For all his advantages, he carried out Mission Impossible with George & Sons. He more than survived, he thrived. He is smart, focused and tireless.

We should be so lucky.
 

chawson

Well-Known Member
Bronze Supporter
Aug 1, 2006
1,555
I'm definitely concerned we're going to swing back to a Cherington-type and hoard the prospects too much again. based on what I've read (hopefully not too much spinning the narrative / smearing DD going on), it seems several FO employees still are wed to Cherington's mentality.
But “hoarding prospects” is probably an even better strategy today than it was in Cherington’s tenure. Because of the CBA, more players are signing extensions early and fewer reach the open market. Combine that with a steeper relative production drop off for players over 30, it’s really difficult and expensive to find production if you don’t already have it in the organization.
 

Bosox1528

lurker
Dec 22, 2017
152
I think focusing on the trades is the wrong focus. We came out ahead in the trades, judging by what could be expected at the time. The only two trades I criticized in real time were Shaw and Buttrey. The others were “give something to get something” and are working out well for both teams. People who think only Moncada is going to amount to anything are delirious, however. Margot, Kopech, and Allen are still young enough to be stud prospects.

If Dombrowski’s firing is about performance, its about the Sale extension and the Eovaldi deal, and the decision to sign Eovaldi instead of a relief ace with the available payroll last offseason.

But, given that everyone is telling you the reason for the firing was his autocratic and insular management style, I don’t know why you wouldn’t take that to the bank.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Eovaldi extension at the time, and the Sale extension looks bad, but who knows? It's early.

But while we're at it, why don't we count the Bogaerts extension and the Martinez signing? Those two look like incredible contracts so far. Why doesn't DD get credit for that?

And the insular management style? It seems to have gotten us a world series and three division titles. Doesn't seem too bad.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
44,681
any consistent examples? I like to think Aaron Hicks, Gio Urshela, Luke Voit, etc. were just ridiculously good luck for the Yanks that will balance out soon.
He does it over and over, Tauchman is another (3.5 bWAR in 296 PAs, obtained this March for excess reliever Phillip Diehl), Didi if you go farther back. And all of those guys have come with a ton of team control as well as options, which of course helps so much with roster flexibility.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
29,062
I must quibble with your assessment of Margot. His OPS+ of 86 is identical to last year's, and is actually one point lower than JBJ's. His overall fWAR numbers have improved, but his bWAR is essentially the same. The former shows marked improvement in his defense (f-dWAR jumps from 2.9 to 6.7), while the latter shows a slip (b-dWAR 1.2 to 0.3). He is also one week away from turning 25.

Yes, there may be some late bloomers, as well as guys that break out when they get healthy (e.g., Kopech). But that doesn't change the fact most of the prospect talent traded away was essentially surplus.
The verbiage you are responding to was purposely designed to give the poster the optionality to claim that whatever the outcome, they were right in calling it. This is not a good faith discussion and your use of data will be met with silence or some middling excuse instead of owning the fact that its unclear whether Manuel Margot has yet to show that he is anything other than a ~.700 OPS player or that he has actually regressed from his first full season.

Back to Dombrowski, everyone is trying to grade how he did on his trades as well as factoring in the Sox payroll, the extensions, the lack of talent in the minors, the upcoming decisions and how he managed around him internally. I think its safe to say that we'll likely never know the true story. We will just get the details from whatever a given source wants us to hear. However if you simply look at all of these factors, logic suggests that Dombrowksi was done in by series of events and not one thing.

That seems the simplest explanation rather than speculating or swallowing whole what is being dribbled out publicly, even if there is some truth to DD being isolated and management being pissed about how he handled the extensions etc...
 
Last edited:

mauf

Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
Gold Supporter
The verbiage you are responding to was purposely designed to give the poster the optionality to claim that whatever the outcome, they were right in calling it. This is not a good faith discussion and your use of data will be met with silence or some middling excuse instead of owning the fact that its unclear whether Manuel Margot has yet to show that he is anything other than a ~.700 OPS player or that he has actually regressed from his first full season.

Back to Dombrowski, everyone is trying to grade how he did on his trades as well as factoring in the Sox payroll, the extensions, the lack of talent in the minors, the upcoming decisions and how he managed around him internally. I think its safe to say that we'll likely never know the true story. We will just get the details from whatever a given source wants us to hear. However if you simply look at all of these factors, logic suggests that Dombrowksi was done in by series of events and not one thing.

That seems the simplest explanation rather than speculating or swallowing whole what is being dribbled out publicly, even if there is some truth to DD being isolated and management being pissed about how he handled the extensions etc...
I share your skepticism of published reports that rely on unnamed sources who have an ax to grind, but I think we can make some informed inferences. In particular, the lack of an extension last off-season is telling. Seems clear that JWH had some misgivings about DD, even when it was seemingly impossible to quibble with the results. So while I’m not ready to swallow every storyline that’s fed to the press by people with agendas, I’m comfortable saying that DD’s leadership style, however one might characterize it, was part of the story.
 

budcrew08

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 30, 2007
5,780
upstate NY
Sold. Raquel Ferreira gets the job.
I hope the Red Sox sincerely consider her as the overall GM. Maybe it ends up a committee behind the scenes but with her as the face of it. She’s been with the team for 21 years, obviously knows her shit and I think it would be a bold move for a team whose history shows a lot of the opposite.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
10,770
Maine
It's not really a big deal that they don't have an immediate replacement, right? Trade deadline has come and gone, off-season signings are months away. Is a GM/PoBO really even doing anything right now besides reading scouting reports from the recently concluded minor league teams?
It really isn't. There's little left to do when it comes to the 2019 season since there are no trades, there shouldn't be any more signings, they've called up all the players that they're going to call up, and no one is likely to be put on the IL with the expanded rosters. My assumption is the triumvirate of interims are going to be doing exactly what they would have been doing anyway to prepare for the off-season. Only now they're going to do it without someone above them in the chain of command, who probably would only be compiling their work without taking any action on it until the off-season anyway.
 

BJBossman

lurker
Dec 6, 2016
209
He came in and did his job: won a title. The job now (partial rebuilding, restocking farm system) is not the job he was hired for, and it's not a job that he's done well in his career. This is IMO the correct move.
I'd disagree. He rebuilt the Marlins core that won in 03. And rebuild the Tigers from one of the worst teams ever to winning 2 Pennants. He's proven he can do that job. But my guess is he wasn't on the same page with ownership for how to do THIS rebuild.
 

BJBossman

lurker
Dec 6, 2016
209
Chaim Bloom is the TB guy who was aced out for the Mets job by smooth-talking Brodie last winter, he is back to the Rays now as some kind of VP and probably available.

Edit: Wow, he is 36 and has worked for the Rays since graduating from Yale undergrad 15 years ago, also he was published in BP as far back as 1997 (when he was 14).

Bloom is high on my list.

the #2 in LA.

CLE has a great history of future top execs coming out of their org.

Hoyer could be in play.

Hazen and Porter in AZ

And you have to at least look at people in the Houston organization.
 

BJBossman

lurker
Dec 6, 2016
209
There should be no shortage of good suitors here.

But we could be looking at another infamous "bridge" year if things don't go the right way (Sale needs surgery, JD opts out, Mookie trade etc.).