Daniel Theis to Chicago for Mo Wagner

Cellar-Door

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He's worse than TT and TT is fungible. It was proven this past off season. Pretty much all bigs are fungible minus a certain few.
And yet.... TT got 2 years at the MLE, Myers Leonard got 9.4M, Plumlee got 8/24.... that level of big gets paid.
 

lovegtm

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He's worse than TT and TT is fungible. It was proven this past off season. Pretty much all bigs are fungible minus a certain few.

edit: Unless fungible to you is Wagner and Kornet. They aren't NBA players to me.
Yeah, we're probably arguing semantics and I'm not going to die on the Theis Hill.

If you mean "it's not hard to find a guy to replace him for $5-10M in the offseason", then I agree. I thought you meant he's a min player you can pick up easily at any point.
 

Cesar Crespo

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And yet.... TT got 2 years at the MLE, Myers Leonard got 9.4M, Plumlee got 8/24.... that level of big gets paid.
TT also got overpaid because the C's watched all their other options go one by one waiting on Hayward. Plus the MLE isn't that much more than what Theis is getting paid right now.

If the MLE for Theis is the "overpay' then maybe he gets overpaid. He's a fungible big unless you want to get into a semantics argument.
 

Cellar-Door

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TT also got overpaid because the C's watched all their other options go one by one waiting on Hayward. Plus the MLE isn't that much more than what Theis is getting paid right now.

If the MLE for Theis is the "overpay' then maybe he gets overpaid. He's a fungible big unless you want to get into a semantics argument.
I mean, it's almost twice what he gets paid now. My issue was with the idea that he would get paid about what he gets paid now.... I can't see him only getting $5M per
 

Cesar Crespo

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I mean, it's almost twice what he gets paid now. My issue was with the idea that he would get paid about what he gets paid now.... I can't see him only getting $5M per
It's what Kanter got. It's what Theis got the first time. He might get the MLE but I wouldn't be shocked at all if he signs for 1/5. It's Aron Baynes money.
 

benhogan

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It's what Kanter got. It's what Theis got the first time. He might get the MLE but I wouldn't be shocked at all if he signs for 1/5. It's Aron Baynes money.
Here's the list of UFA/RFA Centers & PF this Summer. It's a game of musical chairs with these guys, jobs keep on disappearing and the NCAA keeps spitting them out.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ufa/center/
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ufa/power-forward/
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/rfa/center/
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/rfa/power-forward/
 

JCizzle

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Theis not exactly setting Chicago on fire. Three games, all losses, 5/4/2 in 20 minutes on 40/0/60% shooting, averaging minus-7
You forgot the most relevant part. Averaging 1.0 PF per game with Chicago. Down from ~3 with the Celtics this year. Very very interesting ;)
 

NomarsFool

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I do think that Theis' fouling had been better with the Celtics this season. I can't point to a specific point in time, but my impression was that in the start of the season it was just like years prior, and then got better.

Okay, I checked. He was better in March, a little, but the rest of the season has been consistent:

Fouls/MP Fouls/GP
December
0.10​
2.0​
January
0.12​
2.9​
February
0.12​
3.3​
March
0.10​
2.3​
April
0.05​
1.0​
 
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Cellar-Door

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I do think that Theis' fouling had been better with the Celtics this season. I can't point to a specific point in time, but my impression was that in the start of the season it was just like years prior, and then got better.
Dropped from 6.7 FP100 last year to 5.7 this year with the Celtics. He's at 2.2 with the Bulls.
 

Jimbodandy

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Don't forget that the Bulls don't play a hell of a lot of defense. Theis probably can pick his spots and be less aggressive, since nobody seems to give a shit there.
 

HomeRunBaker

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TT also got overpaid because the C's watched all their other options go one by one waiting on Hayward. Plus the MLE isn't that much more than what Theis is getting paid right now.

If the MLE for Theis is the "overpay' then maybe he gets overpaid. He's a fungible big unless you want to get into a semantics argument.
The thing is that “fungible bigs” have ALWAYS gotten paid in this league since there is such a small pool of them who can compete at the NBA level.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's early, but I can't believe I was so wrong on Wagner.

I hope financially/flexibility -wise it was still a good move.
Kornet looks serviceable at times. Other times, he doesn't look like an NBA player. Wagner hasn't even looked playable.
 

Cellar-Door

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It's early, but I can't believe I was so wrong on Wagner.

I hope financially/flexibility -wise it was still a good move.
It was a good move. Getting under the tax was huge. But beyond that... Theis was the 3rd best big on a team that doesn't really need a 3rd big, getting to splitting big minutes between TT and TL, and goign with smaller guys at the 4 has been a key part of recent success. Even if Wagner never plays again, it would be good... also Kornet has been surprisingly decent in some matchups.
 

Euclis20

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It was a good move. Getting under the tax was huge. But beyond that... Theis was the 3rd best big on a team that doesn't really need a 3rd big, getting to splitting big minutes between TT and TL, and goign with smaller guys at the 4 has been a key part of recent success. Even if Wagner never plays again, it would be good... also Kornet has been surprisingly decent in some matchups.
It becomes problematic if either of Thompson/Williams gets hurt, but the title clearly isn't a realistic possibility this year anyway. Getting under the tax pays dividends down the road.
 

Euclis20

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I'm normally pretty optimistic, but the only possible path I can see is injuries to Brooklyn, Philly and LA. That's not too difficult to imagine considering the number of games missed by Durant/Embiid/Lebron/Davis, but still.
 

benhogan

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The thing is that “fungible bigs” have ALWAYS gotten paid in this league since there is such a small pool of them who can compete at the NBA level.
I have a feeling Andre Drummond will be taking a rather sizeable pay cut this year.
Dwight Howard, a very fungible BIG hasn't been really paid all that much the last few years.

What did the Lakers spend on Howard/McGee last season? It's probably the one position where you can skimp, find one cheap in FA, and get away with it. I mean thats kind of what happened last Fall, after GH left, not a wing to be found but a plethora of BIGs were available
 

Jimbodandy

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Good game, but I'll say a prayer that I never have to watch Tre or Wagner play again.

Watched on DVR, so I already knew final score. The last few minutes would have been even more painful otherwise.
 

NomarsFool

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It becomes problematic if either of Thompson/Williams gets hurt, but the title clearly isn't a realistic possibility this year anyway. Getting under the tax pays dividends down the road.
Couldn't we have achieved the same result by cutting Javonte Green before his salary became guaranteed? Theis for Wagner and and Kornet didn't save all that much money.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Couldn't we have achieved the same result by cutting Javonte Green before his salary became guaranteed? Theis for Wagner and and Kornet didn't save all that much money.
I wonder if Danny’s thinking was also that Theis was unlikely to return next year, given he’d be the third center and probably due a raise they didn’t want to give him, while Kornet had potential to be a useful piece who’d be cheaper to retain and fine with a deeper bench rotation role.
 

Koufax

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When the lead got to 27 points on a no-defense layup, I went to bed. That was my best move of the day. I'm on the Kornet could be useful bandwagon. He looks like a decent 3rd center to me.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I wonder if Danny’s thinking was also that Theis was unlikely to return next year, given he’d be the third center and probably due a raise they didn’t want to give him, while Kornet had potential to be a useful piece who’d be cheaper to retain and fine with a deeper bench rotation role.
I'm sure part of DA's thinking is that Brad tried to make the two big thing work and couldn't so once TL had to be put into the starting lineup and TT was the backup, there were no more minutes left for DT.

He's playing about 20 mpg for CHI when active, which I'm sure helps on his next contract more than racking up DNPs or garbage time.
 

NomarsFool

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I wonder if Danny’s thinking was also that Theis was unlikely to return next year, given he’d be the third center and probably due a raise they didn’t want to give him, while Kornet had potential to be a useful piece who’d be cheaper to retain and fine with a deeper bench rotation role.
Kornet's an UFA at the end of the year. So, we did gain his Bird rights, but I wouldn't value that all that highly. At the end of the day it was all about the cap - giving up some depth. It might have been that they thought they'd have been able to get more for Theis than they got - I certainly thought they would have been able to get a 2nd rounder for him (just to use as future capital).
 

lexrageorge

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Theis playing for his next contract was not going to be a great roster fit the rest of the season, especially as it seemed unlikely that he would stay in Boston. Giving up some depth there to stay under the tax line was a tradeoff well worth making.
 

Cellar-Door

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Couldn't we have achieved the same result by cutting Javonte Green before his salary became guaranteed? Theis for Wagner and and Kornet didn't save all that much money.
No because at that point we had no idea what we had in TL, he'd never shown the ability to play 2 weeks in a row even at 10-15 MPG.
 

lovegtm

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No because at that point we had no idea what we had in TL, he'd never shown the ability to play 2 weeks in a row even at 10-15 MPG.
And Kornet has turned out to be necessary in a few games already, which have not been meaningless games.

He looks like a perfectly cromulent 3rd string matchup big.
 

DJnVa

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Theis playing for his next contract was not going to be a great roster fit the rest of the season, especially as it seemed unlikely that he would stay in Boston.
Was he playing differently because he was "playing for a contract"? You'd think if so, his Chicago numbers might be different, but they aren't really--so it's not like he has the sudden freedom to do things differently.

BOS: 24.4 mpg, 55.2% FG, 9.5 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 34.7% from 3
CHI: 23.0 mpg, 56.1% FG, 10.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 23.8% from 3
 

benhogan

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It might have been that they thought they'd have been able to get more for Theis than they got - I certainly thought they would have been able to get a 2nd rounder for him (just to use as future capital).
I was also a little surprised Theis went for so little, but in retrospect it made sense. The teams that could use a BIG (Lakers, Nets, Spurs) were getting better Centers at the minimum (Drummond, Blake, Dieng). So not much interest in Theis or TT for that matter.
 

Cellar-Door

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How does TL's performance impact whether we cut Javonte Green?
Because it would have to be done months ago. If you don't know what you have in TL at the beginning of the season, you don't know that you'll end up playing more 2 Big lineups while waiting for everyone to get healthy. Even with that many PF minutes going to true bigs, Javonte needed to play a good chunk of minutes. If they had played less 2 bigs because TL was struggling or hurt, there would have been even more minutes on the wing needed.

The idea that we were going to go into the year with only 14 full-time players, knowing that our starting PG and at least 1 wing were out indefinitely, and that guys were likely high risk to miss games here and there for COVID tracing in a best case scenario, is crazy, especially given how thin we were at wing.

Cutting Javonte only saved money if done very early, and if that roster spot was left open. Did you really look at our early season squad and say... man we definitely have too many wings? Now imagine it with an extra 15-20 minutes of wing minutes to fill (what would have happened if Theis and TT weren't playing so much 4).
 

HomeRunBaker

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I have a feeling Andre Drummond will be taking a rather sizeable pay cut this year.
Dwight Howard, a very fungible BIG hasn't been really paid all that much the last few years.

What did the Lakers spend on Howard/McGee last season? It's probably the one position where you can skimp, find one cheap in FA, and get away with it. I mean thats kind of what happened last Fall, after GH left, not a wing to be found but a plethora of BIGs were available
I don’t expect Drummond to get another max deal but who were these cheap centers available when most of the highest paid FA 5’s on the market were Day 1 FA signings?

Teams that are a championship destination aren’t the norm however so Howard and Gasol weren’t really on a true open market. Just this past summer we saw:

Day 1 FA
Favors 3/29
Plumlee 3/25
Leonard 2/20
Harrell 2/19

Post-Day 1
Tristan 2/19
Ibaka 2/19
Baynes 2/14
Poeltl 3/26

The others available were guys like WCS, Gasol (although he was going to a contender), Okafor, Will Hernan, Len, Biyombo......in other words, any center who has shown an ability to compete at this level made close to $10m per on a multi-year deal.
 

DGreenwood

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It was a good move. Getting under the tax was huge. But beyond that... Theis was the 3rd best big on a team that doesn't really need a 3rd big, getting to splitting big minutes between TT and TL, and goign with smaller guys at the 4 has been a key part of recent success. Even if Wagner never plays again, it would be good... also Kornet has been surprisingly decent in some matchups.
It becomes problematic if either of Thompson/Williams gets hurt, but the title clearly isn't a realistic possibility this year anyway. Getting under the tax pays dividends down the road.
Did they get under the tax threshold? Spotrac still shows them $1.4 million over. Maybe Spotac just sucks because I can't imagine Zarren letting that happen. Is there a better source that shows them under the tax line?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I've been beating this drum since the trade, so much so that it seems like the guy owes me money or something. He's not good.
This is Wagner. This has always been Wagner. I’m still surprised he wasn’t told the day of the trade to just stay where he was and we’d send him a check.
 

Cellar-Door

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Did they get under the tax threshold? Spotrac still shows them $1.4 million over. Maybe Spotac just sucks because I can't imagine Zarren letting that happen. Is there a better source that shows them under the tax line?
Something is wrong with Sporttrac's number, but only in the LT calculation section.
If you actually total the cap numbers and dead holds they have it comes out to $130,337,016... for some reason they don't have that number translating down to where they calculate the cap space.
 

benhogan

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I don’t expect Drummond to get another max deal but who were these cheap centers available when most of the highest paid FA 5’s on the market were Day 1 FA signings?

Teams that are a championship destination aren’t the norm however so Howard and Gasol weren’t really on a true open market. Just this past summer we saw:

Day 1 FA
Favors 3/29
Plumlee 3/25
Leonard 2/20
Harrell 2/19

Post-Day 1
Tristan 2/19
Ibaka 2/19
Baynes 2/14
Poeltl 3/26

The others available were guys like WCS, Gasol (although he was going to a contender), Okafor, Will Hernan, Len, Biyombo......in other words, any center who has shown an ability to compete at this level made close to $10m per on a multi-year deal.
Make an offseason market on Drummond? do you see him getting over $15MM/yr?

Leonard was a special pay-up (Miami wanted to retain space).
McGee went for $4.2MM.
Noel $5MM.
Portis 2yrs for $7.4MM
Gasol $2.5MM.
Boogie $2.5MM.
Taj Gibson $3.2MM
Dwight Howard $2.5MM.
Whiteside $2.3MM.
Kaminsky $1.7MM.
Muscala $2.3MM
Kanter at $5MM cost us a 1st to unload.

The quality BIGs got Mid Level Exceptions across the board. I guess if that's considered getting "PAID" in the NBA, that's fine. Probably semantics but I see these guys as fungible 5s

The Celtics desperately needed a wing after Gordo left. After Millsap said no, TT was the best they could do with the slot Danny had opened up. Tristan is working out fine, but if we lost him as fill for a rotational wing/PG this summer (or had to unload his salary to keep Fournier) I wouldn't be bothered.
 
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DGreenwood

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Something is wrong with Sporttrac's number, but only in the LT calculation section.
If you actually total the cap numbers and dead holds they have it comes out to $130,337,016... for some reason they don't have that number translating down to where they calculate the cap space.
I did notice that but don't understand the system well enough to know if there's a difference between how you calculate total cap allocation ($130,337,016 on Spotrac) and total taxable salaries ($134,016,778 on Spotrac). If those numbers are supposed to be the same then that's the mistake (on their part).
 
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Cellar-Door

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I did notice that but don't understand the system well enough to know if there's a difference between how you calculate total cap allocation ($130,337,016 on Spotrac) and total taxable salaries ($134,016,778 on Spotrac). If those numbers are supposed to be the same that that's the mistake on their part.
pretty sure it is.