He's an intriguing scrap heap player, he's fairly mobile for a big and he seems like he should be able to shoot, but he's never been able to consistently put things together. I appreciated his effort and defensive communication last night, obviously with the caveat that it was during garbage time. This team needs more guys to try to fly around on defense and make shit happen. With TL's emergence, it would be interesting if Jay Larranaga could help develop Wagner into an energy 15-20 MPG stretch 5. Not saying this is a likely outcome by any means, but not impossible either. Of course, if they sign Drummond or another buyout big, his opportunities for minutes will be pretty much nonexistent. Curious to see what happens with him.
Daniel Theis to Chicago for Mo Wagner
- Thread starter NomarsFool
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In 83-84, the average team attempted 2.4 3PA/G and shot .250.
Griffith led the league with 252 attempts and 91 makes and % at .361. 2nd was Michael Cooper with 38 makes and 121 attempts. Only 3 players attempted more than 100. Larry Bird was 10th in the league in attempts at 73.
Only 6 players actually qualified for 3 point FG% (at least with modern requirements). 6th place was Ricky Sobers, at .261. Bird shot .247.
Griffith led the league with 252 attempts and 91 makes and % at .361. 2nd was Michael Cooper with 38 makes and 121 attempts. Only 3 players attempted more than 100. Larry Bird was 10th in the league in attempts at 73.
Only 6 players actually qualified for 3 point FG% (at least with modern requirements). 6th place was Ricky Sobers, at .261. Bird shot .247.
Almost 40 years later watching that still makes me nervous. When DJ hit the two FTs I finally felt like I could breath. Thanks for posting. That series was one of my favorite Boston sports memories from my youth.
So I've got a couple more minutes to write...
When I arrived in college in Boston late 84, my life just revolved around the playoffs. Literally, it was college and playoffs (and a beer or 3). In college I had classes and there was some guy named Reggie Lewis playing for the Huskies, and the hockey team was winning games and a beanpot. Professionally, it was like a buffet - Celtics, Bruins, RedSox, Patriots - and they were all winning (or at least competitive into the playoffs). It wasn't just the Celtics/NBA golden age, it was the entirety of the Boston sports scene as well. I remember for many games being on the emotional roller coaster with every possession between the Celtics/Lakers, all game long it seemed like there was never more than a sliver of space between the two teams. Stuff like that is just epic (before the cool kids ruined the word). There were so many incredible plays in every game, that you lose track at the time. I owe myself a few hours (weeks) of just going back and watching a few of the 80's games in their entirety to see how many of those "I didn't remember that happening" moments I'll have.
Good stuff... towel waving or not.
The problem is that he can't shoot 3s for some reason. I see him currently as a slightly more mobile Kelly Olynyk that shoots 30% career on 3s. Not exactly too useful.
I don't know why he has been such an awful outside shooter... he was pretty good in college, billed as a stretch big, shoots 81% on FT, and despite the 3s has a career 60% True shooting percentage.
He's only 23 so I think there is a non-zero chance he gets to the high 30's and is actually a useful rotation player at some point. Perhaps not this year, but we'll see. We could use another bench guy that isn't terrible.
No the players are better. There is a difference. Same for baseball. But, the games have become too similar.
I deleted a paragraph that the game had a peak 83-87, but was terrible by 92 or so, then they banned the handcheck and the mid 90s were great. But, ironcially the NBA missed the point, that these were two great teams, Rambis, ML, Worthy, DJ was a much a part of what made it great and they simplified it to Magic and Bird. There is a solid argument they were the 2nd and 3rd best players especially in 85 and 87. The NBA was probably it's best during the Shaq/Kobe Lakers period, even though I didn't like them winning. Teams were scoring inside and making 3s. Shaq was just so good though, that they were unbeatable. Unwilling to wait for him to eat his way out of dominance the NBA ruined the game, made it much harder to post up, harder to guard the ball.
The quality of the game is cyclical. Since you making personal attacks, I bet as a younger person you think everything is a linear progression getting better. Every year is better than the year before right? Bullshit. Look at Boxing at one time we had Ali, Formean, Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Shavers, all near their peak at once. It was better than the time before, and the time after. There are some very good heavyweights right now who sadly don't get the attention.
The three point shot? All in all I don't like it. a 50% bonus is too much for being further away. Players get so good that the rules have to be changed. Goal tending was legal at the beginning, guys used to be allowed to bunt foul for ever. Baseball has the same problem in that every player can now hit the ball out. I coach and my highschool team was pretty dominant because we forced other teams to take midrange shots. We took less than 20 midrange shots in 30 games last year. My son is an athletic 6'6 kid playing ii fucking Saskatchewan and he took exactly half of his shots from 3 last year. So it's not like I don't understand how it works. But, at the NBA level the game has been ruined. A leauge where a guy like Blake Griffin who can bench over 400lb (and apparently outside of a Pistons uniform can still jump) spends two or three years never entering the key is bogus. Something is broken. The game was broken when Riley's Knicks got to the finals with game scores in the 80s. It was broken after Jordan when every team ran iso, iso,iso for some "next" guy. It was even more the same, and boring then. And it is broken now.
If Bird played today he would take 10 threes a game. Instead of Hawks falling off the bench when he scored 60 maybe he scored 75 and 54 of them are just the same jumper from varying distances. He would rarely make the pass through traffic to the cutting teammate since the teammate would be standing in the corner, all fucking game. Jason Tatum reminds me of Bird (not in mental toughness or passing) but in his ability to score on smaller guys and go by bigger guys, but the way the game is played and reffed, the most impressive things he does, toughest shots he makes, are usually bad for the team. Jalen Brown in an all star but when he drives if he can't get all the way to the hoop he is at a loss, he can't pump, pivot, find a way to use his superior athleticism to score from 5-7 feet away. The NBA needs to call fouls on the D and reward guys that get to the paint and actuall score not kick for a three. Maybe even a bonus like the extra fucking point for being further away. I want to see Lebron and Levine and Aaron Gordon try to dunk everything rather than get in the paint and kick to some nameless 3 and D guy.
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Where is the personal attack? I just assumed you were older because everyone I know who prefers the 80s style of play is older than me (41). Plus, listening to the other responses, they are pretty clearly driven by nostalgia.
And sorry, but today's game is way better than the 80's. If you hate the 3, then obviously not.
Sorry for leaving out he is almost 24....
I don't see him as any sort of big upside guy, just pointing out that aside from the 3PT shooting he actually has been a reasonably functional NBA player.
The one thing he really sucks at is a little surprising given he shot outside well enough in college and also shoots FTs well.
He doesn't have to improve in any other areas than 3PT shooting to suddenly be serviceable. Not impossible at age 23/24.
We have certainly learned more about the numbers and what works and what doesn't, so in that sense the game has evolved. The players are stronger, faster, and possess much higher skills in many key areas (handle, outside shooting). But in some ways, the baseball parallel that Reggie keeps using is not a bad one. If you like games where a team goes yard 5 times but strikes out 17 teams and leaves 15 guys on base, then you prefer today's baseball to 40 years ago too. Same for hoop. Dunks and threes are more efficient basketball, and certainly the guys doing it are way more skilled at those things than they ever have been. But the heart wants what the heart wants. Bird vs. Magic was like watching Jokic pass the ball around, except both guys were doing it, and half of the rest of the guys on both teams were doing it too. Some of us old fucks miss that stuff.
Someoe out there are some coahes who will figure out how to win a new way. Unit then it will suck more than it should.
As a fan I like the different styles. Soccer generally bores the shit out of me, and I have no recent knowledge, but Germany vs Brazil? The different styles are exciting. Same with Canada Russia in hockey, or today USA or Canada Juniors ve Russians or Swedes juniors. Are the players as good as Sharks/Senators? No but the style is fun.
Lebron is without doubt eh best player ever. Fuck you Mike. You think you can hand check the shit out of guy bigger and stronger than the mailman? I can only imagine what Lebron would have done in league that rewarded physical play more than it does now. Probably the same thing they did because he would have won every year like Shaq.
As a fan I like the different styles. Soccer generally bores the shit out of me, and I have no recent knowledge, but Germany vs Brazil? The different styles are exciting. Same with Canada Russia in hockey, or today USA or Canada Juniors ve Russians or Swedes juniors. Are the players as good as Sharks/Senators? No but the style is fun.
Lebron is without doubt eh best player ever. Fuck you Mike. You think you can hand check the shit out of guy bigger and stronger than the mailman? I can only imagine what Lebron would have done in league that rewarded physical play more than it does now. Probably the same thing they did because he would have won every year like Shaq.
IMO, it's because it was basketball. You know where 5 guys tried to beat 5 guys. If you have Lebron today, you are 2/5ths of the way there, because you can let him dominate, or at worst, you need a sidekick or 2. The league plays king maker. If you don't get the foul calls, you can't beat the other team if they have a guy that does. That pretty much changes the game. Lebron should be on the edge of fouling out every game the way he plays, as should Harden. There was a thread here not too many years ago when the finals were going on, and someone was making the claim that the Heat (Lebron, Wade, Bosh) were the best team ever, modern athletes, etc. Couldn't accept the 86 Celtics were a) potentially better, and b) definitely a better team. Went on for what seemed like forever... until the Spurs beat them playing a team game. Then the thread died immediately, case closed - they couldn't beat that years opposition playing a team game.
I would LOVE to see today's athletes play a team game, where everyone is reff'ed equally. Because then, if Lebron fouls out - we get to see what Davis can do, and if Kuzma can stand up under pressure, and can the coach squeeze 3 minutes out of the 8th deep guy to get Davis a brief rest. Or will the coach go to his grave knowing he lost game 7 with a time out in his pocket. To me that is basketball, not the watered down ISO game where we only get to see Hulk versus Thor. I want upsets, and to see teams choke because the ref doesn't bail out the mega-ultra-super-star on an out of control drive. I want a guy like Rondo to matter because he can set up that pass because he's seen it for 10 years. Some would argue they don't want to see the lesser players breathe the oxygen - leave that for the mega stars. I want Bird/McHale/Parish but I want Wedman and Ainge or DJ as well (hell, for 2-3 minutes I could take Kite on the floor as well) - because that's a team. If the game you like has 5 guys on the court that decide the game, but only 2 are active participants at any given time (by design), then you are only watching part of a team. [Edit: not to say that ISO, PnR, etc. can't be a part of every game, or that every team wouldn't use it to some degree - but not as the only damn set.]
I look at it this way, March Madness can be exciting as all hell, and the majority of participants won't ever sniff the NBA. Part of its magic (for me) is we often see a team being greater than the sum of it's parts. Doesn't always work out, but when it does... it's amazing. Why can't we have that on the NBA level with the modern athletes, and the margin for error being so slim... it would be amazing.
Someone see my walker? I left it here somewhere...
Heh, it's an expression I use all the time. Didn't know it was insulting.
Who's insulting who now? Sorry I think current NBA is better than the 80's. Sorry I was right that you were older than 50.
Get off my lawn really fits.
I'd be willing to bet that 90% of people who prefer old time basketball were around before the 3. Those who prefer the modern game, grew up with the 3.
Not the first time. It was said in jest, like it's always said. The 2nd time, sure.
I don’t really remember the NBA before the 3 pointer, but I think the game would be better if it were more balanced.
Probably but the math doesn't work for a balanced game. I think the 3 actually gives crappy players and teams a better chance to win.
That's better. Don't back down with lame apology. you said my ideas suck because I am old. Stand by what you said, or say it was wrong. Don't half assed back down and say you didn't do it. It is interesting to talk about the game changing. Very few older hoops guys don't think the players are better today, but we disappointed in what they don't or are not allowed to do.
But, to be honest if "get off my lawn' is something you say often, that may be a problem. That you routinely dismiss people based on their age probably does not serve you well. I am a teacher and every goddam year I deal with he opposite whether it's Bart Simpson, NWA, Grunge, skateboards, cell phones the new ideas are always the end. Generations always mistrust each other. So your casual, and admitted frequent, dismissal of old people is just "get off my lawn" in reverse.
I am reading John Wooden's book. He hated dunking, Despised it. My kids being born is the thrid best thing to happen in my life the top two were me dunking on people and number 5 in my kid dunking on somebody. But, When Wooden says Kareem not being allowed to dunk made him develop the sky hook, next day when I went to the gym with my kid I told him while working on drives "we won't dunk today." Maybe having the touch to finish off the glass is more important, because I looked for the knowledge.
To me the nadir was the mid-90's with game scores in the 70's and 80's, sometimes even the 60's. Every play was design to take 23.5 seconds off the shot clock before getting fouled. "Great defense" was basically committing fouls and getting away with it. Something absolutely had to be done.
Also, it was eye opening watching the 2004 Olympics; the FIBA game at the time was aesthetically pleasing to watch. Now, the 2004 team had a number of flaws, coaching being #1, and being a victim of circumstance with regards to roster composition. But the modern game seems much closer to the FIBA game, at least to my eyes.
Also, it was eye opening watching the 2004 Olympics; the FIBA game at the time was aesthetically pleasing to watch. Now, the 2004 team had a number of flaws, coaching being #1, and being a victim of circumstance with regards to roster composition. But the modern game seems much closer to the FIBA game, at least to my eyes.
I would actually like to see low post offense and penetration come back, not so much mid-range. The first change I would make is to stop calling fouls on jump shots where the shooter kicks his leg out. I would also not call fouls on any incidental contact that comes after release.
I say it when my son and his friends come at me with new stuff. So it's me making fun of myself.
You are taking a comment way too seriously. It was said in fun. Maybe if the internet had tones.
LOL.
I wish I knew the next step. While pouring out my heart, usually old people are better at seeing what is wrong, and if the solution is something new, innovation, usually comes from young people.
I won't make the old person error of just wanting to put on red hat and turn back the clock. the cat is out of the bag. You can't erase the line.
I think you have to call more fouls on shooters in the paint. But the problem with replay is it is hard for refs to have the influence the league and coaches once gave them. And the old school way of holding the ball creating contct may just draw another mutant that can go up to 12 feet to block your shot so it will still make sense to kick for the 3.
But, the post up needs to comeback. At times we see the ball go into Embid, no offence but he's about 25% as good as Shaq and 5% as intersting as McHale when he catches it down low. I sort of think if a guy just abit more fit, bit better than Embid becomes dominant in the post, and the refs let him play a bit we could get a version of Shaq's Lakers vs Curry's Warriors which would top Magic/Bird because the average player is twice as good as 1984.
What will happen is there a new way to win. Somebody will figure it out and then there will be a peak as they battle it out with the 3 point shooting teams. Then everybody will copy that style and it will suck again, until a new new way comes along.
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CC if everyone you know who prefers 80s style to 3-ball is older than you, is it possible rather than nostalgia, they have a knowledge of both, and a point of reference that you do not have?
Rather than diminish others experiences by calling it just nostalgia, perhaps you should appreciate others first hand observations of a game you were literally too young to experience.
And Reggie give the kid his ball back.
Zion isn't the guy you described but he's a guy who could change the game. Plus a lot of the 7 footers nowadays are more complete players.
It's almost like it's an opinion. I've watched old basketball, I don't find it as good as the current game. Old baseball is 100 times better than the current game.
Plus the last 2 minutes of the game in the 80s was just as much a slogfest as it is now. That was the whole entire point. That clip was 8 minutes long and it was 35 seconds on the clock. The end game has not changed at all.
If you think those 8 minutes were that much different, it's because you were emotionally attached to the 84 Celtics. You probably watched a lot of games. You cared about Magic and Bird. If you are just some person watching an old tape with no feelings whatsoever, that 8 minutes of tape is not compelling.
The only realistic way is to push the three point line back, which is tough to do because you can't push back the corner three, so they'd have to eliminate that which changes the court geometry wildly.
If they were creating the NBA now, the easiest way to do it is make 2s worth 3, and 3s worth 4 so the long shot is only a 33% bonus rather than the 50% bonus it is now.
Way too radical to do now.
Isn't the problem players make the 10'-3 shots at the same clip they make their 3s?
The Rockets teams that won 2 rings played some pretty basketball too but they arguably only won 2 rings because Jordan was doing the baseball thing.
I meant changing the points to 3 and 4. Pushing the line back would change things.
I remember when they moved the line in, eww.
Would free throws be worth 1.5 points in this new scheme or would we reduce their value? If they became 1.5, you’d have to figure out what to do when a missed 3 point shooter is fouled (third made free throw only worth 1?). This would also introduce .25 spreads in gambling.
I’m for it.
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I wasn't clear enough.
In the absurd scenario where they were changing the points to 3 and 4, I'd still be pushing the line back.
In my wild scenario, free throws on two shot fouls would be worth 2 if you hit 1 of 2, 3 if you hit them both, and and ones are still just one.
We both had opinions, mine (and others) were born from first hand experience in real time of both
styles of games and all the changes that took place from the 3s, to no hand checking to flagrant fouls, the way the game is called, etc. . Based on real time observations many prefer the 80s game and find it more entertaining than 3-ball.
It was your opinion you like 3-ball better, which is your opinion.
And we agree that old baseball is a lot better than new baseball as MLB took a lot of "baseball" out of the game.
Much the way the NBA took a lot of basketball out of the game when they decided to mostly play it from 23 ft rather than inside the paint.
and yes YMMV
I like the current NBA more than the early 80s but the best play was in the 00's. The worst was the end of the 80s and early 90s where it was Brawl Ball.
I'm 52 and basically grew up with the 3. But the first 10 years, nobody shot it well because none of them grew up shooting it.
I wouldn't say that the older game was better per se, just different. There are things about all eras that were awesome (except the 70s imo).
If anything, I push back on the modern game uber alles folks because it betrays a lack of appreciation for the nuances of the previous eras. Sure, drop Lebron, Steph, or Giannis into 1975 and holy shit would they dominate. But imagine Bird, Magic, or Jordan growing up shooting the 3 from fifth grade, modern medicine, and shooting coaches.
Imagine contracting down to 23 teams like the early 80s (lets say even 26 teams, to account for internationals). More talent on every team. There were tons of pluses in other decades.
No fucking kidding.
Well all the reason for me to pity your expereicne as a fan, and for, rather than sense of superiority, for you realize you missed something, and you are poorer for it.
I remember Ali as the guy slapping at Leon Spinks. Maybe it was talking to my old man, but I had a sense I had really missed soemthing. I was envious that he paid 5 bucks to watch Ali fight Big Cat Williams on closed Circuit on a big movie screen, and listen to the most racist, the biggest "Marciano would moider the bum" haters walk out stunned admitting nobody would ever have beaten Ali that day. I can watch and be awed on youtube. But. I don't really get it.
The original point was ML did more than wave a towel. If you watch Renteria hit it back to Foulke that is not exciting in itself. But, around here at least there is an understanding of what came before.
That 34 seconds still is significant because a guy that two years later was considered the GOAT, had the goat horns. I hate the lakers, but respect how Magic took this knockout blow to his confidence and rep, and got better. What preceded that 8 minutes was the Lakers crushing the Celtics in game 3, Bird calling his teammate sissies, ML saying it wasn't over, Magic and Worthy (the two guys missing FTs and throwing the ball to ML) telling ML to zip it because he doesn't play, McHale flattening Rambis, and no offence Mr Kardi B is better than Shakespeare, an epic battle with 4 guys at that point better than anyone but Lebron playing today. Right before the clip begins Bird scored on Magic in one of the great possessions of all time, because Riley guessed right and blew up the first play the Celtics wanted to run, and the Cs didn't get Bird the ball until the third try. ML getting that dunk? I can't think of a context for today. Randy Rainbow taking a gun away from Don Jr and dropping him with a right cross as he is trying to shoot Biden, is kinda close I guess.
The other thing in support of your point is that there are endless examples of big men with FT touch adding the 3 relatively late in their careers. It’s the one thing you can dream a bit on an older guy improving.
So you are mad at me for saying you were nostalgic but are basically admitting you were nostalgic? Have your cake and eat it too.
It's 35 seconds of action taking more than 8 minutes. It's the same as today.
I love the conversation of the last few pages, but we've dramatically veered away from Theis and Wagner.
Exactly. I'm generally of the opinion Wagner was basically a throw in and not going to be any sort of important piece.
But.... if you have a player that is not good overall, it's much better if he is at least competent at some things and if you squint he might improve in his problem areas. Wagner shot 3s well in college and is a good FT shooter. The guy kind of can shoot but he hasn't yet in the NBA. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't. But this version of Wagner is actually pretty decent if you add in 36-38% 3 PT shooting.
You could have an equally bad player that is bad at things like being unable to defend, being too short for his position, being unathletic, can't rebound etc. A little less to dream on there.