C's pick Aaron Nesmith #14 overall

HomeRunBaker

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Langford needs to stay on the court. IMO its near impossible to judge what he can be given his time healing and not playing. But the sands are draining on him and he's got to show something next year or he'll be in playing ball in Europe by '23, replaced by the next new shiny #14.
Romeo needs to earn the minutes to stay on the court and he squandered the opportunity. He hadn’t done so these past couple of weeks and that’s on the player.
 

bankshot1

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Romeo needs to earn the minutes to stay on the court and he squandered the opportunity. He hadn’t done so these past couple of weeks and that’s on the player.
That's unspoken. Its on him to be prepared to showcase what he can do. If he can show something as this season winds down great, but IMO he's got 1 year left to prove his case.
 

benhogan

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The second benching came after like a 7 minute appearance when he was aimlessly jogging up and down the court without an idea what was happening. Yes, this was after he showed some flashes and was working his ass off......but the idea that he was sat for no reason is a false narrative.
Man, too much ball washing of Brad and his handling of Nesmith this season, which has been inept since the end of February...The kid has offered more hustle/energy than every other bench player on this team, by a large amount. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. If Aaron is confused on a play, Brad needs to coach him up. The kid is the furthest thing from unintelligent, aloof or disinterested in getting better. DNPs is a crude/lazy approach to player development (& more effective for the loafing/talented young pros)

Here's some more Brad wizardry on AN minutes:
Nesmith averaged 30+mpg in two big wins against the Hornets (15pts) and Spurs (16pts) two weeks ago. In the 6 games since the team has gone 1-5 and Nesmith has averaged under 20mpg in those 6 (w/Brown or Tatum out).

This kid is better than the rest of the bench now (Romeo, Carsen, Grant, Semi, & Javonte when he was here) and has a ton more upside this season/future seasons. Talent wins in the NBA and AN's shooting stroke/length/energy are huge pluses compared to the rest. This has been obvious for months.

FREE NESMITH!
 

HomeRunBaker

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Man, too much ball washing of Brad and his handling of Nesmith this season, which has been inept since the end of February...The kid has offered more hustle/energy than every other bench player on this team, by a large amount. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. If Aaron is confused on a play, Brad needs to coach him up. The kid is the furthest thing from unintelligent, aloof or disinterested in getting better. DNPs is a crude/lazy approach to player development (& more effective for the loafing/talented young pros)

Here's some more Brad wizardry on AN minutes:
Nesmith averaged 30+mpg in two big wins against the Hornets (15pts) and Spurs (16pts) two weeks ago. In the 6 games since the team has gone 1-5 and Nesmith has averaged under 20mpg in those 6 (w/Brown or Tatum out).

This kid is better than the rest of the bench now (Romeo, Carsen, Grant, Semi, & Javonte when he was here) and has a ton more upside this season/future seasons. Talent wins in the NBA and AN's shooting stroke/length/energy are huge pluses compared to the rest. This has been obvious for months.

FREE NESMITH!
LOL you’re seriously accusing ME of ballwashing Brad? Whoa there lol.

You continue pointing toward hustle and energy when I’m specifically mentioning his final game during that stretch when he appearing less interested than Vincent Poirier in a pickup game. I’m not sure what has been obvious for months since he was benched for his lack of production but I do agree that he returned a new player. So whatever Brad did has obviously worked. Throwing kids into the fire for 30mpg doesn’t help the player or the team.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That's unspoken. Its on him to be prepared to showcase what he can do. If he can show something as this season winds down great, but IMO he's got 1 year left to prove his case.
Technically, he has 2. It would be really bad if they didn't bring him back for year 4.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Technically, he has 2. It would be really bad if they didn't bring him back for year 4.
Well he had an opportunity to show Ainge that he could be a rotation piece next year. So instead of beginning the season ready to go he’ll be behind those who Ainge acquires to begin the season in the rotation. This leaves him losing time while waiting for injuries to open up minutes.
 

benhogan

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LOL you’re seriously accusing ME of ballwashing Brad? Whoa there lol.

You continue pointing toward hustle and energy when I’m specifically mentioning his final game during that stretch when he appearing less interested than Vincent Poirier in a pickup game. I’m not sure what has been obvious for months since he was benched for his lack of production but I do agree that he returned a new player. So whatever Brad did has obviously worked. Throwing kids into the fire for 30mpg doesn’t help the player or the team.
1 confused play = 7 games of DNPs when the team was desperate for WING help from Day 1 this season? Pretty crude approach.

Good thing Danny shipped Javonte + Teague + Theis for a 7'2" Center. OR we may have never heard from Nesmith again this season.
 

shoelace

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Good thing Danny shipped Javonte + Teague + Theis for a 7'2" Center. OR we may have never heard from Nesmith again this season.
I mean, that's not really what that trade was about and you know that. They made that move partially to clear minutes for TL, something you complained about in many threads. So you're trying to dunk on Danny for doing something that you advocated for? And, of course, trading away the big depth that was the subject of so much whining on this board has come back to bite them recently. Obviously there were cap considerations with the Fournier move, but still. There's a sort of weird contradiction in your complaint here.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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That's unspoken. Its on him to be prepared to showcase what he can do. If he can show something as this season winds down great, but IMO he's got 1 year left to prove his case.
They're not giving up on Romeo.

Romeo is a way different development project that Nesmith. Nesmith is a shooter and frankly all he has to do is shoot and make hustle plays. The game slowed down for him (well it did until he had to start) and that's great.

Romeo, as noted before, has always had the ball in his hands. I presume the entire reason they picked him was because he was in the 90th percentile in PnRs as a freshman in college with not a great supporting cast and torn ligaments in his wrist.

By all accounts Romeo is a super hard worker. He needs reps. He also needs to get stroner, which I assume he really hasn't been able to do because of injuries. Romeo is not like James Young. Maybe he washes out because he can't stay on the floor but if he's healthy, he has the ability to play in the NBA.

It's funny. Sometimes this board complains about how Brad tries to develop young players but then wants to get rid of Tacko to get another project wing to develop.

Other people (like this podcast I heard) wants Danny to get rid of the young players "who can't play" and bring in vets like Ariza and Dodson.
 

Cellar-Door

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1 confused play = 7 games of DNPs when the team was desperate for WING help from Day 1 this season? Pretty crude approach.

Good thing Danny shipped Javonte + Teague + Theis for a 7'2" Center. OR we may have never heard from Nesmith again this season.
It decidedly was not 1 confused play. We get it, you love Nesmith and hated the other wings.
Nesmith was decidedly lost and did not play well for a number of games before he went back to the bench. Even the one that was pretty good on paper (ATL) was mostly a late run by the bench against the Hawks' deep bench when we were down 20+.

He went to the bench for a few games, got another game and was terrible, got 3 more games off, then has been in the rotation the rest of the year. I mean,.... he had 6 DNPs in 7 games to get his shit together, then he has had 5 in the next 30
 

bankshot1

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They're not giving up on Romeo.

Romeo is a way different development project that Nesmith. Nesmith is a shooter and frankly all he has to do is shoot and make hustle plays. The game slowed down for him (well it did until he had to start) and that's great.

Romeo, as noted before, has always had the ball in his hands. I presume the entire reason they picked him was because he was in the 90th percentile in PnRs as a freshman in college with not a great supporting cast and torn ligaments in his wrist.

By all accounts Romeo is a super hard worker. He needs reps. He also needs to get stroner, which I assume he really hasn't been able to do because of injuries. Romeo is not like James Young. Maybe he washes out because he can't stay on the floor but if he's healthy, he has the ability to play in the NBA.

It's funny. Sometimes this board complains about how Brad tries to develop young players but then wants to get rid of Tacko to get another project wing to develop.

Other people (like this podcast I heard) wants Danny to get rid of the young players "who can't play" and bring in vets like Ariza and Dodson.
I didn't say give up on him, but he needs to show 1) he can stay healthy, and 2) play in the NBA, neither of which has he done in his first 2 years with the Celts. (and I'm not blaming injuries on him). And for a salary constrained team, the $8M or whatever he'll make in years 3 and 4 start to become a consideration.

And I'm in the school of thought that rookies/young players (and for AI&P) RL is still on rookie time, are like puppies, they're fun to watch grow and develop but they pee on the rug until they learn not to. And Romeo is still peeing on the rug. IMO he has one more year to get house broken and I'm rooting for him (my kid went to IU)
 

Cellar-Door

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I didn't say give up on him, but he needs to show 1) he can stay healthy, and 2) play in the NBA, neither of which has he done in his first 2 years with the Celts. (and I'm not blaming injuries on him). And for a salary constrained team, the $8-10M or whatever he'll make in years 3 and 4 start to become a consideration.

And I'm in the school of thought that rookies/young players (and for AI&P) RL is still on rookie time, are like puppies, they're fun to watch grow and develop but they pee on the rug until they learn not to. And Romeo is still peeing on the rug. IMO he has one more year to get house broken and I'm rooting for him (my kid went to IU)
His salary is 100% not a consideration. He'll make about 1.5M average over the vet minimum. They don't give a shit about paying tax on 1.5M.
 

bankshot1

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His salary is 100% not a consideration. He'll make about 1.5M average over the vet minimum. They don't give a shit about paying tax on 1.5M.
What did they save on Theis? Was it worth it?
The roster spot has a value and IMO if by next year RL has not made progress that spot could be assigned to someone else in '23.
 

Cellar-Door

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What did they save on Theis? Was it worth it?
The roster spot has a value and IMO if by next year RL has not made progress that spot could be assigned to someone else in '23.
Saving on Theis was about getting under the line to re-set any repeater penalties. The Celtics are going to be way over the line the next two, so it's just about money.
It's possible they move on from Romeo for basketball reasons, but it won't be because of money.
 

bankshot1

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Saving on Theis was about getting under the line to re-set any repeater penalties. The Celtics are going to be way over the line the next two, so it's just about money.
It's possible they move on from Romeo for basketball reasons, but it won't be because of money.
My primary point was that he's got limited time to prove he belongs in the NBA and he's on the clock.
 

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You can find posts of me shitting on him his rookie year too. I was the same guy laughing hysterically at the Draymond Green comparisons. I was the same guy asking what people saw in him and what his ceiling was. Same guy who said his weight was a real issue and that it shouldn't be brushed off nor should anyone assume he'd get back into game shape.

Sorry, but he was awful last year too. I'm not rewriting anything, I just disagreed with all of you.

And as for his defense, people judge rookies differently on defense so when a player doesn't look completely lost on that end... people mistake it for being good.


I have a feeling RL is going to suck too. I guess if/when he does, it'll be revisionist history talking about how awful his first 2 seasons were.
And rightfully so. That was never a reasonable comparison, no matter what you thought of his play last year. He's simply not that type of player, nor will he ever be nearly as good. We've always been praying for some sort of PJ Tucker ceiling with him.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Here's some more Brad wizardry on AN minutes:
Nesmith averaged 30+mpg in two big wins against the Hornets (15pts) and Spurs (16pts) two weeks ago. In the 6 games since the team has gone 1-5 and Nesmith has averaged under 20mpg in those 6 (w/Brown or Tatum out).
At least some of this is due to Nesmith's habit of racking up early fouls.
They're not giving up on Romeo.

Romeo is a way different development project that Nesmith. Nesmith is a shooter and frankly all he has to do is shoot and make hustle plays. The game slowed down for him (well it did until he had to start) and that's great.

Romeo, as noted before, has always had the ball in his hands. I presume the entire reason they picked him was because he was in the 90th percentile in PnRs as a freshman in college with not a great supporting cast and torn ligaments in his wrist.

By all accounts Romeo is a super hard worker. He needs reps. He also needs to get stroner, which I assume he really hasn't been able to do because of injuries. Romeo is not like James Young. Maybe he washes out because he can't stay on the floor but if he's healthy, he has the ability to play in the NBA.
It's an advantage for Nesmith that when he gets in the game and goes to the corner on offense, he's playing to a strength. Not so for Langford.
 

HomeRunBaker

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1 confused play = 7 games of DNPs when the team was desperate for WING help from Day 1 this season? Pretty crude approach.

Good thing Danny shipped Javonte + Teague + Theis for a 7'2" Center. OR we may have never heard from Nesmith again this season.
It was his entire 1H rotation on both sides of the ball which is why Brad didn’t bring him back in the 2H nor in the following games. Two games prior he played like 24 min without attempting a shot. You can’t be that passive and inconsistent so he sat him to regroup and he returned better. This is how a coach develops a young player who is struggling.....not just continually throwing him out there to fail.
 

Cellar-Door

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At least some of this is due to Nesmith's habit of racking up early fouls.
Yeah, I mean here are those games:
20 MIN- 5 fouls
20 Min- 4 fouls (also sat late because we won by 30+ and the dregs got big minutes as a reward)
12 MIn- 3 fouls (played 6th most minutes, but we got destroyed so bench got emptied)
19 Min- 2 fouls (6th man again, Fournier got the minutes because he was by far our best player, maybe you could argue Smart could have gotten less?)
17 MIN- 1 foul (got benched because the Heat TORCHED him, he got picked on by a good team)
22 MIN- 4 fouls

He's getting 6th man minutes as he should, and he gets less if he plays poorly (or the team is down big) but can't consistently get more in part because he's almost always in foul trouble.
 

radsoxfan

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His salary is 100% not a consideration. He'll make about 1.5M average over the vet minimum. They don't give a shit about paying tax on 1.5M.
Generally I agree, though if they view him as a complete flameout they probably don’t want to just throw money away.

I don’t think they do yet, but time is dwindling. I have consistently agreed with those who say there are reasons to hold out hope and not declare him a failure just yet.

I just wish his limited, injury filled first 2 years had more glimpses of offensive competence.

As I’ve said before, there are degrees of badness. A young player being often bad or moderately bad might be OK in the long run.

A young player always being horrifically bad starts to be a problem quicker than you think.
 

benhogan

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I mean, that's not really what that trade was about and you know that. They made that move partially to clear minutes for TL, something you complained about in many threads. So you're trying to dunk on Danny for doing something that you advocated for? And, of course, trading away the big depth that was the subject of so much whining on this board has come back to bite them recently. Obviously there were cap considerations with the Fournier move, but still. There's a sort of weird contradiction in your complaint here.
Theis/Javonte/Teague trade is part of an ongoing joke about Moneyball/Billy Beane trades taking the power away from Art Howe not playing Hatteberg
 

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Theis/Javonte/Teague trade is part of an ongoing joke about Moneyball/Billy Beane trades taking the power away from Art Howe not playing Hatteberg
And that's fantastic and would be awesome if we ever heard that it was true.

But at the end of the day, it was about adding Fournier and still resetting the tax. And whatever Danny fucked up last offseason shouldn't have interfered with either thing.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, I mean here are those games:
20 MIN- 5 fouls
20 Min- 4 fouls (also sat late because we won by 30+ and the dregs got big minutes as a reward)
12 MIn- 3 fouls (played 6th most minutes, but we got destroyed so bench got emptied)
19 Min- 2 fouls (6th man again, Fournier got the minutes because he was by far our best player, maybe you could argue Smart could have gotten less?)
17 MIN- 1 foul (got benched because the Heat TORCHED him, he got picked on by a good team)
22 MIN- 4 fouls

He's getting 6th man minutes as he should, and he gets less if he plays poorly (or the team is down big) but can't consistently get more in part because he's almost always in foul trouble.
He also had 5 fouls in the Hornets and Spurs game, but I'm sure you noticed that when you looked up all those other games...so that's a fail ;)
 

bankshot1

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I was curious and just took a look at the past 26 games since the Theis trade, (3/26/21)

TL played in 15 of those games and the Celts were 11-4 (.733)
TL DNP in 11 of those games and the Celts were 3-8 (.272)

This might be too small a sample size and there certainly are other variables to consider, but...

Its not crazy to believe that with a healthy TL, his rim protection and easy baskets, the Celts could have flipped those 3-8 games into 8-3 (.727) and they would be sitting as the 4 seed now.

its been that type of year.
 

Cellar-Door

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He also had 5 fouls in the Hornets and Spurs game, but I'm sure you noticed that when you looked up all those other games...so that's a fail ;)
I mean... ok? The argument wasn't that he fouled more, it was that he came out because he had foul trouble. And... if it took him 30 minutes to get his 5 fouls he got to play 30 minutes, if it took him 20 he got 20. The idea that a guy who commits a shitton of fouls was going to get 10 more minutes is flawed.

part of learning to play in the NBA is not fouling. If you get 3 quick fouls you're going to sit for a while, if you get 2 more quick when you come back you're basically done.

Your Nesmith arguments are all based more on you wanting Nesmith to play 30 minutes than anything in how an NBA game is played, his performances or the rotation.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I was curious and just took a look at the past 26 games since the Theis trade, (3/26/21)

TL played in 15 of those games and the Celts were 11-4 (.733)
TL DNP in 11 of those games and the Celts were 3-8 (.272)

This might be too small a sample size and there certainly are other variables to consider, but...

Its not crazy to believe that with a healthy TL, his rim protection and easy baskets, the Celts could have flipped those 3-8 games into 8-3 (.727) and they would be sitting as the 4 seed now.

its been that type of year.
Yeah, a healthy TL has a lot of trickle down effects, such as: (i) TT plays against bench units or beefy centers; (ii) we don't have to see Murder Kornet at all; (iii) GW has limited matchups; (iv) the Cs guards who can't keep anyone in front of them don't have to care as much about keeping anyone in front of them; and (v) they have one person on offense whose first instinct is to move the ball.

Of course if people could project TL to be healthy, maybe he doesn't drop to the Cs.
 

benhogan

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Your Nesmith arguments are all based more on you wanting Nesmith to play 30 minutes than anything in how an NBA game is played, his performances or the rotation.
Nope, not really. I wanted consistent minutes (and no DNPs) to let him build confidence/develop by February. I was a Nesmith buyer during the draft, and was impressed with his energy when I saw him play. By game 20 it was more than apparent that Romeo wasn't going to be ready, Grant had moved next door to Chipotle, Semi was still Semi, Javonte was nothing more than a 15th man. Am I missing any of our other bench drivel? Oh yea Carsen, still nothing there...

I never really thought they were title contenders this season, unless they received injury luck, but the reverse happened from day 1 (actually since the playoffs last year).

Everything about this team should now be built with the JayLord timeline in mind (yes @lovegtm, I'm breaking it out). It's been my stance for a while. So I could give a crap how scared Nesmith's eyes looked when he played. His talent, size, 3pt shot, age, contract control, energy trump the other bench jokers by a huge margin. Once he started gaining confidence in his shot 3 weeks ago & there was nobody else healthy, he should have been unleashed.

I'm not giving Brad credit for AN's development or much else this season. But of course, I'm not in the locker room, or practices or film room, so I'm sure we'll get that response in regards to any criticism about CBS.
 
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nighthob

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Good, JayLord is objectively a better nickname. Better still will be the JayCade Brigade. ;)
 

Eddie Jurak

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I was curious and just took a look at the past 26 games since the Theis trade, (3/26/21)

TL played in 15 of those games and the Celts were 11-4 (.733)
TL DNP in 11 of those games and the Celts were 3-8 (.272)

This might be too small a sample size and there certainly are other variables to consider, but...

Its not crazy to believe that with a healthy TL, his rim protection and easy baskets, the Celts could have flipped those 3-8 games into 8-3 (.727) and they would be sitting as the 4 seed now.

its been that type of year.
He certainly adds a couple of things offensively that teams need to account for: his ability to get to the rim and make plays and his ability to move the basketball. This season's Celtics are prone to not attacking the rim and settling for outside shots and to not moving the ball around.

Cleaning the glass's stats, which eliminate garbage time, don't really pick this up, though. His on-off numbers are close to even (+0.1). With Williams on (vs off) eFG% and offensive rebounding improvement are top 10%, but turnovers and getting to the line decline quite a bit. Defensively, with Williams on vs off, the Celtics force more turnovers but give up a high eFG%, and give up lots of offensive rebounds and FTs. I wonder, though, if looking at the whole season hides some recent improvement by TL.
 

lovegtm

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It's interesting watching Nesmith in a "good player on a bad team" situation like against the Knicks on Sunday. He looks a lot worse as "the guy", whereas someone like Romeo looks a lot better with more primary offensive touches.

Nothing really big for his development--it's easier to get minutes on this team as a complementary player. Just interesting to see.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It's interesting watching Nesmith in a "good player on a bad team" situation like against the Knicks on Sunday. He looks a lot worse as "the guy", whereas someone like Romeo looks a lot better with more primary offensive touches.

Nothing really big for his development--it's easier to get minutes on this team as a complementary player. Just interesting to see.
This is a great point on the comparison between Langford and Nesmith. Depending on how things shake out this offseason, I could see Nesmith opening next season as a starter, where he can capitalize on his 'complementary' offensive skillset. Langford is maybe more likely to break in with the bench, when the C's have fewer of their ball dominant players on the floor. If Fournier leaves, maybe Nesmith and Langford occupy one slot in the lineup.
 

benhogan

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It's interesting watching Nesmith in a "good player on a bad team" situation like against the Knicks on Sunday. He looks a lot worse as "the guy", whereas someone like Romeo looks a lot better with more primary offensive touches.

Nothing really big for his development--it's easier to get minutes on this team as a complementary player. Just interesting to see.
That's fair. Nesmith had a 3pt spot-up shooter rep and Langford ballhandling/go to the rim(draws fouls) rep coming out of college. So Romeo may need the ball to create looks and get POINTZ

If you're looking for a silver lining, they both are long switchy wing defenders, that have exceeded their defensive reputations. Shots, minutes, team passing will eventually lead to more POINTZ from both.
 

sezwho

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That's fair. Nesmith had a 3pt spot-up shooter rep and Langford ballhandling/go to the rim(draws fouls) rep coming out of college. So Romeo may need the ball to create looks and get POINTZ

If you're looking for a silver lining, they both are long switchy wing defenders, that have exceeded their defensive reputations. Shots, minutes, team passing will eventually lead to more POINTZ from both.
There is also the silver lining potential of non-linear development. There were reasonably passionate cases made here that both our 14s were playing historically bad basketball, then something clicked for Nesmith. For the reasons highlighted above (RL isn't a stand in corner and shoot 3s player) he is more poised to thrive in a more ball dominant role (DA said this as well) and shows potential on D as well.
 

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There is also the silver lining potential of non-linear development. There were reasonably passionate cases made here that both our 14s were playing historically bad basketball, then something clicked for Nesmith. For the reasons highlighted above (RL isn't a stand in corner and shoot 3s player) he is more poised to thrive in a more ball dominant role (DA said this as well) and shows potential on D as well.
I really wonder about the potential for Langford to slide into a lesser version of the Smart role if Smart moves on. Not the 6th man obviously, but a defensive guard who you make a ballhandler with the second unit. Marcus at age 21 was at least as bad a shooter as Romeo, and the very brief stints of Romeo playing "point" were interesting. He wasn't there yet, but I would like to see him more in that type of role with PP in the second unit next year. Neither is a PG, but PP's best asset is his catch and shoot floor stretching, and Romeo's is his driving, if he can work on his passing, using them as a backcourt pair, with PP playing more off-ball and Romeo taking the better scorer on defense could be intriguing.
 

nighthob

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That's fair. Nesmith had a 3pt spot-up shooter rep and Langford ballhandling/go to the rim(draws fouls) rep coming out of college. So Romeo may need the ball to create looks and get POINTZ

If you're looking for a silver lining, they both are long switchy wing defenders, that have exceeded their defensive reputations. Shots, minutes, team passing will eventually lead to more POINTZ from both.
Forgetting the POINTZ issue, Langford is a G that can defend 1-3 well while Nesmith is a pure wing shooter. So they mostly occupy different (though overlapping) space. When Boston wins the Cade Cunningham sweepstakes I can see Langford taking over as the starting 1.
 

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Forgetting the POINTZ issue, Langford is a G that can defend 1-3 well while Nesmith is a pure wing shooter. So they mostly occupy different (though overlapping) space. When Boston wins the Cade Cunningham sweepstakes I can see Langford taking over as the starting 1.
What's going on with the middle of the 1st round? Time for Hob to go full Clockwork Orange

Were looking at 16ish? Just staple it to TT + Smart and get the Lonz. Danny just needs to add Quentin Grimes in the 2nd round (completely miss-mocked).

Unfortunately, the Cade Brigade will be rolling into one of Detroit, Houston, OKC or Orlando.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,826
If we lose the 1st play in game but win the 2nd, are we the 15th pick or 16th pick assuming a 1st round exit?

Also Assuming the Kings aren't in the playoffs.