C's pick Aaron Nesmith #14 overall

Jed Zeppelin

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A lot of talk about trying to read Brad's mind when the reality is probably as simple as Nesmith left a game with an injury a week ago and isn't fully right.
 

HomeRunBaker

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A lot of talk about trying to read Brad's mind when the reality is probably as simple as Nesmith left a game with an injury a week ago and isn't fully right.
Brad is going to violate league rules by not reporting a player injury? Seems very conspiracy theoryish. I’ll ask this.....based on what we’ve seen over the past week what did Nesmith do to earn any minutes? Watch the 22 min when he didn’t take a single shot and his final games 7 min vs Indiana in the first half for the easy answer.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He is definitely too timid on offense but I was most encouraged by him not looking like a chicken with his head cut of on defense during that recent stretch. He wasn't Michael Cooper or anything but he was working hard on positioning, making hustle plays, grabbing some boards, etc. In short, he was starting to look like he belonged and I feel like that will eventually open up his offense. But, pretty soon the inn will be full again and I don't really see much room for him in the rotation so I would prefer he get some minutes now while there is presumably a small window of opportunity and while he has shown some incremental growth.

Let's just hope he stays mentally ready because his usage could turn on a dime at any time, it seems.
This team isn't good enough offensively to carry zeros or less than zeros on offense. The other options really aren't all that better though. It's why I wonder if Langford even helps much. I think this team has more issues offensively than defensively.
 

lexrageorge

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Brad is going to violate league rules by not reporting a player injury? Seems very conspiracy theoryish. I’ll ask this.....based on what we’ve seen over the past week what did Nesmith do to earn any minutes? Watch the 22 min when he didn’t take a single shot and his final games 7 min vs Indiana in the first half for the easy answer.
While I do believe your explanation is 100% correct, I will quibble with your first sentence.

If Nesmith was limping around after a game and didn't look 100% during the pre-game shootaround, Nesmith is going to be buried deep in the bench. But such "injuries" happen all the time, and while they impact the usage of deep bench players, they are often not reported.
 

HomeRunBaker

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While I do believe your explanation is 100% correct, I will quibble with your first sentence.

If Nesmith was limping around after a game and didn't look 100% during the pre-game shootaround, Nesmith is going to be buried deep in the bench. But such "injuries" happen all the time, and while they impact the usage of deep bench players, they are often not reported.
After an uninspiring 7 min rotation in the prior game Brad never brought him back for the 2H. After playing 20mpg over the prior two weeks the signs were there, based on Brads usage in prior game and the lack of production, that it shouldn’t have been surprising that he was sent back to the bench.
 

reggiecleveland

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I really want Nesmith to be the guy that plays. He is a standard NBA athlete, long enough, quick enough to not give much away, where. Grant. Semi. Pritchard (who is playing with Teague, Kemba, a fair bit,) all have physical limitations that hurt them. Plus he is reputed to be a shooter. On paper he seems by far the superior option.

But, he hasn't played well. He was given a chance to seize the playing time, and he didn't. It doesn't mean he won't get a chance again, but Brad sat an NBA vet, Teague, and gave him minutes and he didn't run with it. Teague, was give a chance last few games and has earned more time. This is how it works. Be ready when your chance comes. Grant wasn't gangbusters, but he came in after sitting for about 8 days and drilled his first 3. That is a pro attitude. That is 'resolve'.
 

Cellar-Door

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I really want Nesmith to be the guy that plays. He is a standard NBA athlete, long enough, quick enough to not give much away, where. Grant. Semi. Pritchard (who is playing with Teague, Kemba, a fair bit,) all have physical limitations that hurt them. Plus he is reputed to be a shooter. On paper he seems by far the superior option.

But, he hasn't played well. He was given a chance to seize the playing time, and he didn't. It doesn't mean he won't get a chance again, but Brad sat an NBA vet, Teague, and gave him minutes and he didn't run with it. Teague, was give a chance last few games and has earned more time. This is how it works. Be ready when your chance comes. Grant wasn't gangbusters, but he came in after sitting for about 8 days and drilled his first 3. That is a pro attitude. That is 'resolve'.
I think the thing is... Pritchard can guard PGs and while he isn't a pure PG, he's much better at finding guys than Nesmith, he has a handling and passing skillset Nesmith doesn't., Semi isn't reputed to be a good shooter... he is a good shooter we're 2 years in now (also he plays a lot of 4 for us when he's in)... Grant...yeah.
Nesmith will get minutes, but he's going to fight for them and it's going to depend on a number of factors.

Edit- yeah Grant was awful, he took and hit a 3, but he also didn't hit the glass, committed 3 fouls and was an impressive -6 in 5+ minutes. He was awful, and I'm sure he lackadasical board work and defense said more about his resolve than hitting a 3.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think the thing is... Pritchard can guard PGs and while he isn't a pure PG, he's much better at finding guys than Nesmith, he has a handling and passing skillset Nesmith doesn't., Semi isn't reputed to be a good shooter... he is a good shooter we're 2 years in now (also he plays a lot of 4 for us when he's in)... Grant...yeah.
Nesmith will get minutes, but he's going to fight for them and it's going to depend on a number of factors.

Edit- yeah Grant was awful, he took and hit a 3, but he also didn't hit the glass, committed 3 fouls and was an impressive -6 in 5+ minutes. He was awful, and I'm sure he lackadasical board work and defense said more about his resolve than hitting a 3.
Maybe it's semantics, but Semi hasn't been a good shooter for 2 years now. He's been slightly above average. The NBA average from 3 this year is currently .368. Semi is at .378, 39/103. If he were 38/103, he'd be at .369. Considering the rest of his game, he's pretty meh and someone you want as the 10th or 11th man. Instead he's 5th in total minutes played because of injuries and roster construction. Yes, 5th. If you want to feel even better, Theis is 3rd and TT is 4th. PP is 6th. Ugh. People will hate on Semi somewhat unfairly because of overexposure.

I think that's why people pine for Nesmith. It's because the other options are terrible too, even if they are slightly less terrible. We've also watched Semi play 3300 minutes of basketball, Grant 1500. Nesmith has less than 300 Nesmith is shiny and new. He also has upside. Semi definitely doesn't. Grant may or may not. I'm not a fan. Thing is, I don't think playing for the sake of playing is going to get Nesmith any closer to NBA ready than sitting on the bench watching and observing. I don't see Nesmith being ready this season regardless of whether he plays or not.

I'd rather see Nesmith get some minutes than the other dreck but it really doesn't matter. They are all bad options. Hopefully Romeo is good.
 

Cellar-Door

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Maybe it's semantics, but Semi hasn't been a good shooter for 2 years now. He's been slightly above average. The NBA average from 3 this year is currently .368. Semi is at .378, 39/103. If he were 38/103, he'd be at .369. Considering the rest of his game, he's pretty meh and someone you want as the 10th or 11th man. Instead he's 5th in total minutes played because of injuries and roster construction. Yes, 5th. If you want to feel even better, Theis is 3rd and TT is 4th. PP is 6th. Ugh. People will hate on Semi somewhat unfairly because of overexposure.

I think that's why people pine for Nesmith. It's because the other options are terrible too, even if they are slightly less terrible. We've also watched Semi play 3300 minutes of basketball, Grant 1500. Nesmith has less than 300 Nesmith is shiny and new. He also has upside. Semi definitely doesn't. Grant may or may not. I'm not a fan. Thing is, I don't think playing for the sake of playing is going to get Nesmith any closer to NBA ready than sitting on the bench watching and observing. I don't see Nesmith being ready this season regardless of whether he plays or not.

I'd rather see Nesmith get some minutes than the other dreck but it really doesn't matter. They are all bad options. Hopefully Romeo is good.
Semi shot a full 2 pts above league average last year. I would guess he was even further above league average for players who played the bulk of their minutes at the 4, but I can't find that data anymore. I would say he's clearly above league average as a shooter.

But yes I get that Nesmith is shiny and new, and boring adequate Semi isn't as fun as shiny but not as good Nesmith.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Semi shot a full 2 pts above league average last year. I would guess he was even further above league average for players who played the bulk of their minutes at the 4, but I can't find that data anymore. I would say he's clearly above league average as a shooter.

But yes I get that Nesmith is shiny and new, and boring adequate Semi isn't as fun as shiny but not as good Nesmith.
Maybe. Stretch 4s aren't nearly as rare anymore.

Last year, Semi only averaged 1.8 3PA/G. This year he's at 3.2. In 69 games last year, he had 127 3PA. In 32 games this year, he already has 103. He's shooting pretty much the exact same % (.378 last year, .379 this year) but at much higher volume. Maybe he's above average. I wouldn't call him good though. Like I said, probably semantics. To make oranges oranges: Last year: 4.5 3PA/36. This year 6.1 3PA/36.

There's also this. It's not perfect. It's just ESPN stats filtered out by PFs. It's only players who qualify.

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/power-forward/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Semi's shooting looks less impressive the closer you look.

Literally 100% of his makes are either open (closest defender 4-6 ft away) or wide open (6+ feet). He has maintained last year's percentage at higher volume, which isn't nothing, but 60% of his looks have been wide open and he's only shooting 35% on those. That's awful for the guy who is 4th on the team in 3pt attempts. That role on this team needs to be someone who can shoot 45%-50% on those looks, period.

Also he only shoots well from one side of the floor—50% from right corner, 45% from right elbow three, and then 29% each from the equivalent spots on the left side. He may be above average but for the looks he gets they need someone who can shoot a lot better than he can.

And yes, I realize my complaint is with the roster more than it is with Semi himself.

Semi's shot dashboard
Semi's shot chart
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Semi's shooting looks less impressive the closer you look.

Literally 100% of his makes are either open (closest defender 4-6 ft away) or wide open (6+ feet). He has maintained last year's percentage at higher volume, which isn't nothing, but 60% of his looks have been wide open and he's only shooting 35% on those. That's awful for the guy who is 4th on the team in 3pt attempts. That role on this team needs to be someone who can shoot 45%-50% on those looks, period.

Also he only shoots well from one side of the floor—50% from right corner, 45% from right elbow three, and then 29% each from the equivalent spots on the left side. He may be above average but for the looks he gets they need someone who can shoot a lot better than he can.

And yes, I realize my complaint is with the roster more than it is with Semi himself.

Semi's shot dashboard
Semi's shot chart
I was just about to post similar thoughts. Semi is only an above-average percentage shooter bc he’s left alone for open looks bc he isn’t that good of a shooter. Looking only at raw numbers misses the big picture.
 

slamminsammya

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Semi's shooting looks less impressive the closer you look.

Literally 100% of his makes are either open (closest defender 4-6 ft away) or wide open (6+ feet). He has maintained last year's percentage at higher volume, which isn't nothing, but 60% of his looks have been wide open and he's only shooting 35% on those. That's awful for the guy who is 4th on the team in 3pt attempts. That role on this team needs to be someone who can shoot 45%-50% on those looks, period.

Also he only shoots well from one side of the floor—50% from right corner, 45% from right elbow three, and then 29% each from the equivalent spots on the left side. He may be above average but for the looks he gets they need someone who can shoot a lot better than he can.

And yes, I realize my complaint is with the roster more than it is with Semi himself.

Semi's shot dashboard
Semi's shot chart
How many guys in the NBA shoot 45-50 pct on those looks?
 

Cellar-Door

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How many guys in the NBA shoot 45-50 pct on those looks?
Yeah that chart has him 9th in right elbow and 13th in right corner. I mean... that's pretty good for your 3 and D guy. His job is to play physical D and knock down open shots, particularly late in the clock, and he does that.
 

Cesar Crespo

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How many guys in the NBA shoot 45-50 pct on those looks?
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shots-closest-defender-10/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&CloseDefDistRange=6+ Feet - Wide Open
Use the drop down menu for closest defender.

Semi is 274th in the league, that includes all players though. So those who don't even qualify. But from 4-6 ft (aka open) he's 46th in the NBA, same cavaet.

So... yeah.

He needs to shoot 45-50% on those 4-6ft shots... he's hitting them at a 47.2% clip.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Yeah that chart has him 9th in right elbow and 13th in right corner. I mean... that's pretty good for your 3 and D guy. His job is to play physical D and knock down open shots, particularly late in the clock, and he does that.
The conversation would be different if it was from everywhere on the floor. A 30% open or wide open shooter from half the floor is not good. I’m not saying he doesn’t have a place on the team, just that they need a better shooter on the roster to knock some of these guys down in the pecking order.

How many guys in the NBA shoot 45-50 pct on those looks?
Hard to parse out with who should be qualified, but you can get a good sense going team by team and seeing how he stacks up against other teams' "other guys" who tend to get the bulk of these looks. Brooklyn, for example, has four guys taking at least two 3pt per game who are shooting better than Semi on wide open looks. Harris and Green are at 60% and 47%, respectively. Gallo is at 46% for ATL. Monk at 47% for CHA, etc etc. I overstated it on the high end probably because I saw Joe Harris on the 1st page looking team to team and got overexcited, but 45% is absolutely attainable for role playing bench guy who is open all the time, and they aren't all high draft picks or big contracts.
 
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slamminsammya

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The conversation would be different if it was from everywhere on the floor. A 30% open or wide open shooter from half the floor is not good. I’m not saying he doesn’t have a place on the team, just that they need a better shooter on the roster to knock some of these guys down in the pecking order.



Hard to parse out with who should be qualified, but you can get a good sense going team by team and seeing how he stacks up against other teams' "other guys" who tend to get the bulk of these looks. Brooklyn, for example, has four guys taking at least two 3pt per game who are shooting better than Semi on wide open looks. Harris and Green are at 60% and 47%, respectively. Gallo is at 46% for ATL. Monk at 47% for CHA, etc etc. I overstated it on the high end probably because I saw Joe Harris on the 1st page looking team to team and got overexcited, but 45% is absolutely attainable for role playing bench guy who is open all the time, and they aren't all high draft picks or big contracts.
It was remarkable to see him at 35% on wide open ones, roughly 2 per game. That's leaving a lot of points on the floor.
 

NomarsFool

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2-2 to 2-12 he racked up 6 DNP-CDs and one 2 minute stint.

2-14 to 2-24 he had 7 games where he played meaningful minutes (low of 14 high of 28)

Since his 7 minutes against Indiana, it's now been 3 straight DNP-CDs.

Barring something changing, I expect we won't see Mr. Nesmith in non-garbage time for a bit.
 

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Not saying I believe him 100%, but John Karalis said today it's due to Teague playing noticeably better last week or two and he's taking Nesmith's minutes directly. He went on to add CBS really badly wanted to win the last few games before the break and he wasn't caring at all about spreading minutes around.
 

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Not saying I believe him 100%, but John Karalis said today it's due to Teague playing noticeably better last week or two and he's taking Nesmith's minutes directly. He went on to add CBS really badly wanted to win the last few games before the break and he wasn't caring at all about spreading minutes around.
Teague got back on the court after a hiatus based on his off court work. I would think Nesmith has a good opportunity right now to do the same, and all indications are that he's a hard worker. I expect he'll get some run in the season 2nd half.
 

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Nesmith should see minutes with the Celtics' condensed schedule post AS break. Besides Kemba not playing back-to-backs, Brad should be aggressive with load managing the starters.

Next man up.
 

TripleOT

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Teague is 17-27 in the five games he’s played after a benching. He struggled inside the arc this season, to put it mildly, but is 14 for 20 inside the arc since he cleaned up his game, mostly layups.

53 points on only 27 shots in the past five games, four wins. Not sustainable, but quality minutes is what Stevens needs out of Teague. If he keeps it up, he’s not going anywhere (and I’ve hated on Teague all season)

Once Smart and to a much lesser extent Romeo get back, minutes will be scarce to non-existent for Nesmith, If Grant Williams can build off his stellar play in the game before the break, even more so.
 

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Stevens absolutely had to focus on winning the games leading to the ASB. As a coach, you cannot criticize your players for their lack of commitment to winning and then turn around and give key minutes to a player that is not ready.

Nesmith will get an opportunity again; there's too many games in too few days. But he'll have to seize it when he can (same applies to Langford). Developmental minutes are simply not going to be a priority right now.
 

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Stevens absolutely had to focus on winning the games leading to the ASB. As a coach, you cannot criticize your players for their lack of commitment to winning and then turn around and give key minutes to a player that is not ready.
This absolutely explains the shift in the 5 games or so before the break. It is a hard needle to thread when you're asking for full effort from guys and then making their lives harder, covering for guys who maybe don't belong on the court with them. If Brad is reading the room at all, he saw the frustration and went more balls out in the last week. And he's going to have to find that balance for the whole second half while communicating the reasons why.
 

TripleOT

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He had some damn nice floaters in that Raptor game
His early season play was so frustrating because he still has enough shake to beat defenders off the dribble, but his layup and floater game was trash. It looked like he didn’t practice them enough, and apparently that was the case.

That easy layup you make at age 28 is a bit different than when you’re almost 33 and aren’t as springy. It looks like he recalibrated his short shots. He’s been solid from three, and if he can be efficient in the paint, that’s huge.
 

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Teague being playable has a nice trickle-up effect, where you can play Marcus more minutes at the 2 and 3, which takes away the need to play lots of 2-big lineups.
 

NomarsFool

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I don’t like the 2-big lineups or the 2 point guard lineups, really. I hope both are diminished when Smart returns.
 

lovegtm

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I don’t like the 2-big lineups or the 2 point guard lineups, really. I hope both are diminished when Smart returns.
Everyone loves to hate on the 2 point guard lineups, but I really don't see the problem. They usually play them against reserves, and keep 3 other long guys on the floor. Seems like a good way to steal minutes when you're down some wings, while keeping scoring and ability to close out to 3s.
 

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Everyone loves to hate on the 2 point guard lineups, but I really don't see the problem. They usually play them against reserves, and keep 3 other long guys on the floor. Seems like a good way to steal minutes when you're down some wings, while keeping scoring and ability to close out to 3s.
Indeed. The Celtics third best lineup by point differential is Teague/Pritchard/Semi/Tatum/Timelord. +25 points per 100 possessions, in over 42 minutes together (the third most for any five man combination).
 

lovegtm

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Indeed. The Celtics third best lineup by point differential is Teague/Pritchard/Semi/Tatum/Timelord. +25 points per 100 possessions, in over 42 minutes together (the third most for any five man combination).
Yeah I think way too often, fans are like "I dislike X", without thinking through the alternatives and tradeoffs. Of course every coach would love to have Steph/Klay/Dray/Durant, but rosters don't work that way for most teams, particularly with injuries/rest. You have to scrape together stuff that works and try to win games, and right now, with Smart out and Teague playing well, they need to maximize Kemba/PP/Teague minutes.
 

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Yeah I think way too often, fans are like "I dislike X", without thinking through the alternatives and tradeoffs.
The tradeoff is that I wish the roster was constructed differently so that the team had a better player than Jeff Teague who could play wing. The team has struggled for more than a season now with trying to find that 8th-9th guy off the bench who doesn't fit the profile of "bench guy 12-15".
 

lovegtm

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The tradeoff is that I wish the roster was constructed differently so that the team had a better player than Jeff Teague who could play wing. The team has struggled for more than a season now with trying to find that 8th-9th guy off the bench who doesn't fit the profile of "bench guy 12-15".
This is kind of my point: every team in NBA history, with the exception of teams like the Durant Warriors or the '96 Bulls, wishes that it were constructed differently and that no one ever got hurt. The Celtics clearly thought they were getting a wing over the offseason, and then the Indy stuff fell through and Hayward didn't re-sign and Smart has missed extended time. Given that, I'm not sure what there is to criticize in terms of current lineups.

Complaining about lineups implies that there are other lineups available to the coaches that are better, and I just don't see it. From the GM side, I seriously doubt that Danny's dream was to roll with lots of Jeff Teague at the 2 lineups, but c'est la vie.
 

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The tradeoff is that I wish the roster was constructed differently so that the team had a better player than Jeff Teague who could play wing. The team has struggled for more than a season now with trying to find that 8th-9th guy off the bench who doesn't fit the profile of "bench guy 12-15".
How many wings who are good enough to be productive are going to sign with a team that already features two of the best young wings in the game plus Marcus Smart?
 

Cellar-Door

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How many wings who are good enough to be productive are going to sign with a team that already features two of the best young wings in the game plus Marcus Smart?
And just drafted wings with their top pick 2 straight years.
Minimum guys are signing for Rings or playing time. The Celtics didn't look like the best bet for either.
 

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And just drafted wings with their top pick 2 straight years.
Minimum guys are signing for Rings or playing time. The Celtics didn't look like the best bet for either.
How many wings who are good enough to be productive are going to sign with a team that already features two of the best young wings in the game plus Marcus Smart?
These are two good points. Combined with Indy/Hayward/Charlotte slow dance + Smart/Romeo injuries certainly didn't help.

I'd have to say my biggest disappointment, halfway into the season, has been the teams' defense. Tatum and Brown have been utterly unimpressive for their reputations. Plus Teague, Kemba, TT, Grant & even Smart have all been pretty rotten (defensively). Nesmiths' hustle was a nice shot in the arm in his limited minutes and leads me to believe a lot of our players have been sleepwalking through the regular season (not Kemba he is physically limited). As much as I want a corner 3 sharpshooter to be added to our +++ above the break players, I'd lean towards acquiring a + defensive player.

Collins, Vuc, Gordon, Barnes, Ball, J. Grant feel like costly/unavailable in-season acquisitions. I'd like to see Danny make a play for adv metric/++ defensive PG: Delon Wright. He'd add on-ball pressure, create Marcus Smart positional flexibility, make the C's less Teague dependent on Kemba days off (a lot of those coming up), give Brads' double PG lineups some size/defense.

This may feel like "too small a move" but adding a + player to the rotation (while not rushing Smart/Romeo back) will push the deep bench players back to where they belong. Plus Delon would add PG depth for next season, so Danny could be opportunistic w/Kemba this summer.
 

Cellar-Door

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These are two good points. Combined with Indy/Hayward/Charlotte slow dance + Smart/Romeo injuries certainly didn't help.

I'd have to say my biggest disappointment, halfway into the season, has been the teams' defense. Tatum and Brown have been utterly unimpressive for their reputations. Plus Teague, Kemba, TT, Grant & even Smart have all been pretty rotten (defensively). Nesmiths' hustle was a nice shot in the arm in his limited minutes and leads me to believe a lot of our players have been sleepwalking through the regular season (not Kemba he is physically limited). As much as I want a corner 3 sharpshooter to be added to our +++ above the break players, I'd lean towards acquiring a + defensive player.

Collins, Vuc, Gordon, Barnes, Ball, J. Grant feel like costly/unavailable in-season acquisitions. I'd like to see Danny make a play for adv metric/++ defensive PG: Delon Wright. He'd add on-ball pressure, create Marcus Smart positional flexibility, make the C's less Teague dependent on Kemba days off (a lot of those coming up), give Brads' double PG lineups some size/defense.

This may feel like "too small a move" but adding a + player to the rotation (while not rushing Smart/Romeo back) will push the deep bench players back to where they belong. Plus Delon would add PG depth for next season, so Danny could be opportunistic w/Kemba this summer.
I'm a big fan of a Wright move. Even with Teague playing better Wright has a fit here, letting PP and Smart play off-ball more, and he's got an extra year which gives you a lot more flexibility in the summer.
 

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The tradeoff is that I wish the roster was constructed differently so that the team had a better player than Jeff Teague who could play wing. The team has struggled for more than a season now with trying to find that 8th-9th guy off the bench who doesn't fit the profile of "bench guy 12-15".
Isn’t that pretty much every team though? The most underrated oxymoron in NBA lingo is a “reliable 8th-9th man.”
 

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The tradeoff is that I wish the roster was constructed differently so that the team had a better player than Jeff Teague who could play wing. The team has struggled for more than a season now with trying to find that 8th-9th guy off the bench who doesn't fit the profile of "bench guy 12-15".
Yeah I don’t think that anyone is going to argue with you on this. Last year we had Brad Wanamaker getting too many minutes because we had shortages at wing too.

That said, absent a long, productive guy at wing, PP on the floor with another PG isn't the worst thing on the offensive end. I think that we're seeing that he's really a combo guard. He adds some spacing, with the ability to hit long 3s. He gets floaters and assists, the latter not quite at a PG rate but lobs to TL are easy money.

Brad is still figuring out what works and what doesn't. The hardo push to end the first half of the season notwithstanding, we're going to see a lot of experimentation in the second half too.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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I'm a big fan of a Wright move. Even with Teague playing better Wright has a fit here, letting PP and Smart play off-ball more, and he's got an extra year which gives you a lot more flexibility in the summer.
I can't imagine Delon's acquisition cost would be high (relative to others listed). While not really blocking our recently drafted wings.

I see something like this:
Nets: Tristan
Pistons: Dinwiddie + Edwards + Bos 2nd + Nets 2nd
Celtics: Delon Wright + Ellington

He gets floaters and assists, the latter not quite at a PG rate but lobs to TL are easy money.
The FED and Rob Williams, perfect bedfellows
 

NomarsFool

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Dec 21, 2001
5,284
If you trade TT then every game Theis or TL is out you're looking at real minutes for Tacko. I think the Cs like their depth at the big.
I get it. Everything is about tradeoffs. But, the Celtics have ALOT of depth at 5, and not much depth at wing as it is not uncommon for us to be seeing Javonte Green getting minutes. Personally, I'd rather see some minutes for Tacko (or Grant Williams as small ball 5) than Javonte Green and Semi.

The other thing, in case of a significant injury to one of the bigs, it's not too difficult to find an emergency 3rd string center (which does NOT mean that any of the current bigs are 3rd string centers).
 

shoelace

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Jun 24, 2019
149
If you trade TT then every game Theis or TL is out you're looking at real minutes for Tacko. I think the Cs like their depth at the big.
This is correct, but it's not going to convince anyone who wants them to trade Thompson (who has the third highest DLEBRON on the team and has been pretty good after a slow start due to injury). Tacko getting minutes is what they want. I mean, this thread is full of complaints about Nesmith being buried and he's already played 3 times as many minutes this season as Tacko has played in his entire career. Tacko has played in non-garbage time maybe once? in that Washington game when they literally had no other options. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but if that's how Brad is using the player, it seems to indicate that their evaluation is that he is an extremely limited, matchup dependent, break glass in case of emergency player and not someone who is good enough to be a rotational big.

This tracks with the eye test for me, he isn't good, and I feel like for every block he'd be beaten down the court by his man for an easy dunk. I realize some posters think that, because Joel Embiid (averaging 30 points per game and an MVP candidate) played well against Thompson earlier this season, that means he sucks and they should just give minutes to Tacko or whatever because they think the result will be the same and so you should feed the young player minutes, but that is just not a thing. And the organization and the coach seem to agree, thankfully.

This isn't even to say that Thompson shouldn't be traded in the right move (feels like, minimally, you'd need to acquire like Hassan Whiteside or someone who can at least vaguely play NBA basketball if you did), I just don't know why there is such a desire to get rid of the big depth. Both Theis and Williams have a history of being injured, it's good to be able to have multiple different matchup options with these three players, and to be able to load manage all of them in anticipation of the playoffs. The double big lineups haven't been the issue with this team. The issue is that a healthy Walker, Smart, Brown and Tatum have played no minutes together this season. Hopefully those players can all be healthy post break so that the constant fixation on things that aren't really an issue can stop.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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I get it. Everything is about tradeoffs. But, the Celtics have ALOT of depth at 5, and not much depth at wing as it is not uncommon for us to be seeing Javonte Green getting minutes. Personally, I'd rather see some minutes for Tacko (or Grant Williams as small ball 5) than Javonte Green and Semi.

The other thing, in case of a significant injury to one of the bigs, it's not too difficult to find an emergency 3rd string center (which does NOT mean that any of the current bigs are 3rd string centers).
I would very much not rather that. Semi is a decent enough NBA bench player, Tacko is a mascot.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
21,335
If you trade TT then every game Theis or TL is out you're looking at real minutes for Tacko. I think the Cs like their depth at the big.
Yeah we aren’t trading our starting, and only physical, 5 for a backup guard just as Smart is returning.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah we aren’t trading our starting, and only physical, 5 for a backup guard just as Smart is returning.
He's the only guy who doesn't seem like he's one fall or hack away from being on the bench for a few weeks too. As much as I love TLs upside and bounce and Theis's superior wheels and positional brain (and at least he'll take a 3), I'd feel most scared of losing Thompson.

If you factor availability into a guy's floor, Thompson unquestionably has the highest floor.

If everyone else would rather take the risk of Tacko/Grant playing lots of minutes at big in order to upgrade wing, I get it. You're a riverboat gambler. I'd roll the dice too for the right guy, but it better be the right guy. But we should pin these posts if it happens, so we have a list of all the folks who were fine with Bam et al. eating alive our fake bigs after Theis sprains his grundle.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
11,866
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This is correct, but it's not going to convince anyone who wants them to trade Thompson (who has the third highest DLEBRON on the team and has been pretty good after a slow start due to injury). Tacko getting minutes is what they want. I mean, this thread is full of complaints about Nesmith being buried and he's already played 3 times as many minutes this season as Tacko has played in his entire career. Tacko has played in non-garbage time maybe once? in that Washington game when they literally had no other options. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but if that's how Brad is using the player, it seems to indicate that their evaluation is that he is an extremely limited, matchup dependent, break glass in case of emergency player and not someone who is good enough to be a rotational big.

This tracks with the eye test for me, he isn't good, and I feel like for every block he'd be beaten down the court by his man for an easy dunk. I realize some posters think that, because Joel Embiid (averaging 30 points per game and an MVP candidate) played well against Thompson earlier this season, that means he sucks and they should just give minutes to Tacko or whatever because they think the result will be the same and so you should feed the young player minutes, but that is just not a thing. And the organization and the coach seem to agree, thankfully.

This isn't even to say that Thompson shouldn't be traded in the right move (feels like, minimally, you'd need to acquire like Hassan Whiteside or someone who can at least vaguely play NBA basketball if you did), I just don't know why there is such a desire to get rid of the big depth. Both Theis and Williams have a history of being injured, it's good to be able to have multiple different matchup options with these three players, and to be able to load manage all of them in anticipation of the playoffs. The double big lineups haven't been the issue with this team. The issue is that a healthy Walker, Smart, Brown and Tatum have played no minutes together this season. Hopefully those players can all be healthy post break so that the constant fixation on things that aren't really an issue can stop.
No one desires to get rid of the 5 depth for nothing. Tristan has been decent and in order to get a rotational wing/ballhandler, you have to give up something. He's our 3rd best Center with the least upside. If DLEBRON is telling you Tristan Thompson is our 3rd best defensive player then maybe the Celtics should sell high on TT, because he's the 3rd best defensive Center on this team.

Physical/beef centers will be available by the trade deadline (in 2 weeks). The Kanter TPE could potentially be used for a guy like Richaun Holmes or Javale McGee, Wagner, Fernando, Cousins, Biz, Whiteside, Drummond buyout, etc... In the meantime, Grant could play small ball center (as he did in the playoffs). Tacko is a break the glass option (like earlier this season against the Wiz).

Glad to see we have moved off the TimeLord false narrative (ie. has no idea what he's doing on offense/defense, he's unplayable, etc) and now have firmly planted the flag in a Tacko strawman. Literally, no one is pining for Tacko to be part of the regular rotation/ big minutes. If people thought Tacko was valuable they'd be saying cut Javonte and sign Tacko. Equating Nesmith (lottery pick) and Tacko (UD 2-way player) minutes/play is a false equivalency for obvious reasons.

The Celtics have a condensed schedule coming up and the lack of depth at wing trumps having a high-quality 3rd Center. Wing depth has been an issue since the preseason (that's why it's a "fixation" :rolleyes:), it has been more pronounced with the injuries, but it will still be an issue when all are healthy. When the playoffs hit they'll only need 2 Centers. A player like Delon Wright would be a very versatile 6th man and more valuable than TT.
 
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shoelace

Member
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Jun 24, 2019
149
No one desires to get rid of the 5 depth for nothing. Tristan has been decent and in order to get a rotational wing/ballhandler, you have to give up something. He's our 3rd best Center with the least upside. If DLEBRON is telling you Tristan Thompson is our 3rd best defensive player then maybe the Celtics should sell high on TT, because he's the 3rd best defensive Center on this team.
I'm not arguing this (Theis and TL both have better DLEBRON numbers than Thompson), I'm referencing DLEBRON to say that Thompson is actually pretty good (his OLEBRON is bad, but trending positively after his slow start) and not a bad defender. I'm not arguing that he is better than Theis or TL.

Glad to see we have moved off the TimeLord false narrative (ie. has no idea what he's doing on offense/defense, he's unplayable, etc) and now have firmly planted the flag in a Tacko strawman. Literally, no one is pining for Tacko to be part of the regular rotation/ big minutes. If people thought Tacko was valuable they'd be saying cut Javonte and sign Tacko. Equating Nesmith (lottery pick) and Tacko (UD 2-way player) minutes/play is a false equivalency for obvious reasons.
I've never argued that TimeLord was unplayable. I don't think anyone has. There have been arguments in response to the constant "Why is Thompson getting minutes?" question and the answer is that he's been more consistent than TL at certain things defensively. Again, this isn't a talent argument, it is trying to understand Brad's rationale for the choices he makes. I also agree with the posters who think its wise to see if TL can remain healthy for a significant stretch of time before I'd feel comfortable trading away someone like Thompson.

The Celtics have a condensed schedule coming up and the lack of depth at wing trumps having a high-quality 3rd Center. Wing depth has been an issue since the preseason (that's why it's a "fixation" :rolleyes:), it has been more pronounced with the injuries, but it will still be an issue when all are healthy. When the playoffs hit they'll only need 2 Centers. A player like Delon Wright would be a very versatile 6th man and more valuable than TT.
In the Toronto game, where Theis played 7 minutes, Brad talked about Theis playing a significant number of minutes over the last few seasons, and liking having the option to rest him in that situation. And, of course, TL has had a health issue that has been discussed and which seems to require some load management. So, having Thompson helps to mitigate some of those concerns. I don't know why the condensed schedule is an argument for trading away your big depth when two of your bigs reliably get injured every season.

I just don't really understand a fundamental part of this argument, if you think Thompson is easily replaced by one of the big men you assume will be available at the deadline for essentially nothing, why would any team give you value for Thompson? Why wouldn't the teams that could use Thompson just trade for one of those guys instead? This also ignores the larger context of Theis's contract situation. We have no idea if Theis will return next season, it's not difficult to imagine some team offering him more than the MLE because he is a good player. You have Thompson under control for next season at reasonable value. For the posters that think TL is ready to be a full time, 30 minute a night starter, why wouldn't you trade Theis instead? Isn't he more likely to get you a better piece than Thompson?