Coyotes moving to ASU's rink. Capacity: 5,000

Phil Plantier

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Don't normally post on this forum, so apologies if this has already been covered, but the Coyotes are getting evicted from their arena (which I've never heard of before). Their solution? Play at ASU until they build their own arena, which is not even at the planning stages yet. From The Athletic

Assuming sellouts, attendance on Arizona State’s campus would be more similar to what’s seen in the AHL. The AHL is averaging 4,214 fans per game this season, ranging from the Hershey Bears (7,389) to the Stockton Heat (1,345).
 

RG33

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Gary Bettman recently celebrated his 29th year as NHL Commissioner!
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Gary Bettman recently celebrated his 29th year as NHL Commissioner!
He's still better than Manfred and at worst tied with Goodell. Though the way this week is shaking out for the NFL, Bettman might find himself solidly behind Adam Silver by Friday.

Edit: And I think that Bettman sucks.
 

Bozo Texino

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Fred not Lynn

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Whenever there’s dysfunction in Arizona, you hear calls for a move to Houston - ignoring the fact that operated correctly Arizona is in a great hockey market. The problem is, at this point, two things;

1. A Glendale location is useless for any sport except football. Football’s ok, because it’s a whole day excursion…that’s why Green Bay works, too.

2. The team hasn’t been the best managed outfit. Moving a questionably competent organization from one market to another isn’t going to fix that problem.

Eventually, a proper arena on the east side of the valley will draw the appropriate numbers of fans, and lead to some stability.

If I was planning this I’d use that ASU arena from start of season to mid-November, move over to Chase Field until mid-March (or whenever they need the field back to be ready for baseball), and back to ASU. There wouldn’t be too many games at ASU that way - unless the Coyotes went on an extended playoff run, which doesn’t appear to be likely the next few years.

Another interesting, but more complicated approach could be to build an outdoor only hockey stadium - it sounds ridiculous, but might work if you are able to shade and insulate the ice from the daytime sun, and only play at night. Arizona isn’t nearly as hot through the winter, and the overnights can get downright chilly. I know it sounds outrageous - but the things you can do with ice are more or less unlimited as long as your ready for a big power bill…and night time ambient temperatures in the desert are basically the room temperatures you experience at every NHL arena. It’s the direct sunlight that kills you!

What I can’t get my head around is that everyone saw this coming, and ASU didn’t come up with a bigger arena, or a scalable space of some sort in the first place.

Silver lining is that you’re going to have the Coyotes playing in a packed, fun, loud arena - maybe artificial scarcity will stimulate the market and make Arizona hockey a lot more fun moving forward.
 
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Bozo Texino

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How is the perfectly situated downtown Phoenix Footprint Center not an option?
I was typing up a post asking the same question.

I know they had issues with sight lines - and a very unfavorable lease - during their first stay there. I'm guessing they can't afford it, but I'm not positive.
 

Fred not Lynn

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On the thought of a move/temporary move; Maybe there’s merit in moving, but then setting Arizona as a an expansion-in-waiting team once someone can get an actual arena deal in place. As much as traditionalists attack Bettman for his sunbelt fixation, Arizona IS a good market, if it’s done right.

And, controversially, I’ll add ATLANTA as a prospective home for NHL hockey. Downtown fails as a hockey market, twice - but a proper arena in Cobb Country at The Battery would be a great success.
 

Vegas Sox Fan

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I was typing up a post asking the same question.

I know they had issues with sight lines - and a very unfavorable lease - during their first stay there. I'm guessing they can't afford it, but I'm not positive.
Seems like someone in Phoenix needs to step up and make this happen or they are in danger of losing this team.

Funny story, I was in Glendale for a Cardinals game and saw that the Bruins were in town. I thought it would be fun if I had time and I asked the hotel about tickets and they said they had some that they could give away if I checked with them before game time. I got drunk with my buddies and forgot about the hockey game but later that night I bumped into Cam Neely in the hotel bar. Got to shake hands and take a picture together. Pretty cool guy.
 

Bozo Texino

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Seems like someone in Phoenix needs to step up and make this happen or they are in danger of losing this team.

Funny story, I was in Glendale for a Cardinals game and saw that the Bruins were in town. I thought it would be fun if I had time and I asked the hotel about tickets and they said they had some that they could give away if I checked with them before game time. I got drunk with my buddies and forgot about the hockey game but later that night I bumped into Cam Neely in the hotel bar. Got to shake hands and take a picture together. Pretty cool guy.
I went to a Coyotes/Kings game a few years back while visiting my girlfriend's mom - she actually lived in Glendale at the time.

Ample parking! But yeah - not the most happening part of town.
 

cshea

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I was typing up a post asking the same question.

I know they had issues with sight lines - and a very unfavorable lease - during their first stay there. I'm guessing they can't afford it, but I'm not positive.
Yeah, they did play there when they first moved from Winnipeg. The building is not built or configured for hockey so when they shoehorned hockey into it, they had to curtain off sections because you couldn't see the entire ice and they also had a bunch of obstructed view seats. It was kind of like what the Islanders dealt with recently playing in Brooklyn.

At the time, the Coyotes apparently submitted proposals to upgrade the stadium to be more hockey friendly but they were all shot down. That's what led them to Glendale.
 

Leather

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I mean, Phoenix is a big metro (11th biggest market in the US), and having to drive 40 minutes from one side (Mesa) to the other (Glendale) hardly strikes me as unreasonable for such a large metro area. Suboptimal, sure, but a population of that size should be able to support a team in Glendale.

Far more likely to blame for the lack of interest is that the team has, with the exception of one year (2011-12) been pretty awful their entire existence. Aside from Buffalo, they have the worst overall record in hockey over the past 10 years, and the worst overall record over the past 20. They stink.
 

Sandwich Pick

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On the thought of a move/temporary move; Maybe there’s merit in moving, but then setting Arizona as a an expansion-in-waiting team once someone can get an actual arena deal in place. As much as traditionalists attack Bettman for his sunbelt fixation, Arizona IS a good market, if it’s done right.

And, controversially, I’ll add ATLANTA as a prospective home for NHL hockey. Downtown fails as a hockey market, twice - but a proper arena in Cobb Country at The Battery would be a great success.
I wouldn't rule Atlanta out, either. The fans weren't the problem with the Thrashers. The complete shit show that was the Atlanta Spirit Group finished off a team that was a mess from Day 1.
 

Fred not Lynn

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I wouldn't rule Atlanta out, either. The fans weren't the problem with the Thrashers. The complete shit show that was the Atlanta Spirit Group finished off a team that was a mess from Day 1.
Ironically, the vision would be similar to what they attempted in Glendale (adjacent to a big outdoor stadium, and tied into the affiliated real estate developments), except in the Atlanta case, the venue would be located in an area more conducive to building a hockey fan base…
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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As a former Coyotes season ticket holder and someone who has made the drive to Glendale more often that I can remember, I can say unequivocally that it sucks. I don't know what the equivalent would be -- imagine the Bruins were in Woburn.

Bettman sucks but he is not wrong about this being a viable hockey market if they would stop fucking it up. There was a viable Scottsdale location called Los Arcos that would have worked but it got nixed because it was too close to the airport and so violated FAA height sighting requirements by a few feet.

When the Coyotes were downtown they were a thing. But it just doesn't work in the Suns' arena. It is a basketball only facility. When the Coyotes played there, there were frequent stoppages because of the pucks hitting the upper deck and they had to have extensive netting. A friend of mine had what they called "balcony seats" because they felt like they were practically on top of one of the goals.
 

jose melendez

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As a former Coyotes season ticket holder and someone who has made the drive to Glendale more often that I can remember, I can say unequivocally that it sucks. I don't know what the equivalent would be -- imagine the Bruins were in Woburn.

Bettman sucks but he is not wrong about this being a viable hockey market if they would stop fucking it up. There was a viable Scottsdale location called Los Arcos that would have worked but it got nixed because it was too close to the airport and so violated FAA height sighting requirements by a few feet.

When the Coyotes were downtown they were a thing. But it just doesn't work in the Suns' arena. It is a basketball only facility. When the Coyotes played there, there were frequent stoppages because of the pucks hitting the upper deck and they had to have extensive netting. A friend of mine had what they called "balcony seats" because they felt like they were practically on top of one of the goals.
If the B's were in Woburn they'd bang the place out.
 

Salem's Lot

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If the B's were in Woburn they'd bang the place out.
Hell if they had moved to the Rockingham Mall site like Jacobs threatened to do in the 90s they’d be banging the place out. That I-93 corridor from Medford to Salem, NH is where a huge part of the Bruins fan base lives.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Don't normally post on this forum, so apologies if this has already been covered, but the Coyotes are getting evicted from their arena (which I've never heard of before). Their solution? Play at ASU until they build their own arena, which is not even at the planning stages yet. From The Athletic
Apparently the City of Glendale opted out of the Lease Agreement earlier this year and actually threatened to lock the team out of the arena in December for unpaid bills (over $1M) so the Coyotes need to have somewhere to play next season.

This article points out that NCAA rules prohibit the Coyotes from using ASU's locker rooms, which means he'd have to build his own at a cost of $15M to $20M. ASU also apparently wants three-years rent prepayments. I'm sure at least part of this is the Coyote trying to create some leverage on the City of Glendale to try to get back into that arena but I'm not sure this story is doing that at all.
 

burstnbloom

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I mean, Phoenix is a big metro (11th biggest market in the US), and having to drive 40 minutes from one side (Mesa) to the other (Glendale) hardly strikes me as unreasonable for such a large metro area. Suboptimal, sure, but a population of that size should be able to support a team in Glendale.

Far more likely to blame for the lack of interest is that the team has, with the exception of one year (2011-12) been pretty awful their entire existence. Aside from Buffalo, they have the worst overall record in hockey over the past 10 years, and the worst overall record over the past 20. They stink.
No question. The product is horrible AND its a pain in the ass to get there. Why would anyone go there? It's like the Panthers between the late 90's and last year. Why would you drive that far to watch a bad product unless you were a transplant?

They need to figure this shit out before 2024 and sign Auston Matthews.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Apparently the City of Glendale opted out of the Lease Agreement earlier this year and actually threatened to lock the team out of the arena in December for unpaid bills (over $1M) so the Coyotes need to have somewhere to play next season.

This article points out that NCAA rules prohibit the Coyotes from using ASU's locker rooms, which means he'd have to build his own at a cost of $15M to $20M.
There’s no universe in which it costs $15M to $25M to build a locker room…they’d use very nicely dressed up portables. Not ideal, but not a deal-breaker.
 

kenneycb

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I chuckle picturing the Coyotes in a locker room across the street from the rink and having to cross the street in full uniforms (helmets included) with skate guards on. With one of the guys forgetting his skate guards are still on as he jumps on the ice for warm ups.
 

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So, I've followed this story for much longer than I should have. Here's how we got here. (Sorry, it's going to be long. Really long)

When the original Jets were in the throes of the worst economic conditions the NHL had seen in some time, ownership warned that they may have to sell the team and move them. When luck finally ran out in 1996, they were sold to Jerry Colangelo, Steve Gluckstern, and Richard Burke. The original plan was to move them just south to Minneapolis and lease the Target Center, but they couldn't work that out with the Timberwolves. The Plan B was to move them in with Colangelo's NBA team: the Phoenix Suns. America West Arena (today's Phoenix Footprint Center) was...inadequate. One end could miss a whole power play with the obstruction of the balcony over the ice, the Coyotes received nothing but ticket sales from the arena, so no concessions, no parking, just raw ticket sales, and on the ice, they were a little less than the sum of their parts (remember, this team had some serious players, like Keith Tkachuk, Jeremy Roenick, Nikolai Khabibulin, Teppo Numminen, etc., but never made it past the first round). It didn't take long for the financial troubles to start, and the ownership carousel started in 1998 with Burke buying out Gluckstern and Colangelo, only to sell to local developer Steve Ellman, backed by minority owner Wayne Gretzky.

Ellman tried to rework AWA for hockey, but the city wasn't for it, so he looked to build the Coyotes their own arena. After the Los Arcos plan was attacked by the locals, Ellman looked to a patch of land of his own: Glendale. The city was in the middle of an ambitious plan to make Glendale the sporting center for the region, having built the NFL Cardinals' first real home since moving from St. Louis, plus spring training facilities for the Diamondbacks. The city figured they could build the Coyotes' arena and take a bigger chunk of the Phoenix market's entertainment options with them, and so the team moved west and into their new home, jobing.com arena, today's Gila River Arena, in 2004. The price, as it turns out, was putting Phoenix between the team and its fans, forcing ticket holders to cross the city to go to games. It didn't help that the team was at its least competitive in this stretch, having been perennial underachievers under Rick Bowness and Gretzky. In 2005, Ellman sold the team to Jerry Moyes, and this is where the real fun in the story begins.

After over a decade in Phoenix, the team had never been profitable. In fact, almost every year saw losses reach eight figures. When you're backed by a big player like Colangelo, you can withstand some of these. However, Moyes was no Colangelo, and it didn't take long before he realized how in over his head he was. By the 2008-09 season, Moyes was being subsidized by the NHL directly to cover player salaries. Knowing how much trouble Moyes was in, the NHL was helping him secure Jerry Reinsdorf as an investor, if not new majority owner, to try to reverse the tide. However, Jim Balsille was still looking for a team to move to Hamilton, and thought he had is way in without worrying about the approval of the Board of Governors. In 2009, Moyes puts the team into bankruptcy, and immediately coming to a deal with Balsille to satisfy all creditors above and beyond, on the condition that the team be allowed to move. The NHL and the City of Glendale were pretty strongly opposed to this and intervened in court. The judge for the case eventually sided with no one, but threw Balsille's deal out with prejudice, giving him no way to buy the team. The NHL eventually decided to buy the team, hoping to hold on to them long enough for Reinsdorf to line himself up, but Reinsdorf never did. In the meantime, knowing how poorly the Coyotes had performed financially to this point, the NHL also agreed to take over management of the arena for the small annual fee of $25 million US, which was an extortionist's rate, but the city paid up.

For the next two years, the NHL would trot charlatan after charlatan in front of the city, looking to secure an arena management deal that would essentially offset a good chunk of the team's losses. More often than not, though, the men the NHL trotted out couldn't get the money together, and nothing would get done. There's a well-known story that, after the 2009-10 season, with the team still an NHL ward and the city not really up for another $25 million payment to the league (the city was hit hard by the 2008 recession), the NHL threatened to move the team to...Winnipeg. With hours to go, the city ponied up and the NHL stayed, but nothing would really get done for years. A group led by Matthew Hulsizer was ready to buy the team and benefit from a sizeable Glendale subsidy, but the Goldwater Institute scared him off. Greg Jamison, former part-owner of the San Jose Sharks, had a swing, but couldn't get a deal done. It took until the summer of 2013 before a group that had previously tried to buy the team, now headed by a Calgary oil man, put together a bid to bamboozle Glendale and buy the team. For their part, Glendale was going to pay a $15 million arena management fee for 15 years, but the new owners could bail after 5 if they incurred losses over $50 million.

While the NHL stopped owning them, the Coyotes weren't out of trouble. Moody's actually downgraded their rating for municipal bonds from the city, pushing them dangerously close to junk territory. Tack on that, after reaching the Western Conference Final in 2012, the Coyotes would stop being in any way going forward, and the income streams the city had from the Coyotes (naming rights, parking fees) underperformed badly. It took only two years before the Coyotes had a new majority owner, Andrew Barroway, and despite plowing through financial troubles of his own, bought out the remainder of the ownership group in 2017. Between that, Glendale found a loophole: the Coyotes had hired two of the lawyers the city had used to draft the lease agreement for the arena, which, under Arizona law, gave them the right to terminate the deal. Eventually, the city and Coyotes worked out a two-year deal that wasn't so onerous on the city, and began a series of rolling one-year deals thereafter.

From here, we pretty much know the rest: Alex Meruelo takes over in 2019, treats his employees like dirt and his creditors even worse, forces the city to choose letting the arena go without an anchor tenant than put up with him, then finally sees the city sic the state Treasury on him. Glendale is truly salted earth for the Coyotes at this point, and it's no one's fault but theirs, really.

tl;dr: the Coyotes have never been given a chance to succeed in Arizona, through a combination of poor planning by the NHL and owners, and the NHL picking poor owners. So where are we now?

Meruelo wasn't the first one to eye Tempe as a destination for the Coyotes. The Barroway group also looked to Tempe, even partnering with Arizona State to build both arenas: an NHL arena for the Coyotes, and a smaller sheet that would double as ASU's home rink and the Coyotes' practice rink. But with Glendale outright hostile to the Coyotes staying, Meruelo pretty well has no choice. The team has submitted a proposal to Tempe's RFP, and they're in the process of reviewing it before a public vote to approve can take place. This is going to take a while, and something tells me it won't be straightforward. So in the meantime, here are the Coyotes' options:

-Arizona Veterans Memorial Colliseum. Capacity would work for the NHL at just north of 14,000, but almost everything else would need work, and that's before a handful of fire code violations that were outstanding since before COVID.

-Chase Field. I know it was mentioned as a possibility upthread, but it has its own problems. Obviously the NHL would have to do something at the beginning and end of the season, and that's before factoring in playoff runs for either the Coyotes (don't laugh!) or Diamondbacks (seriously, stop laughing). Add on the fact that only the furthest seats would see most of the ice well, and this seems like a nightmare to sell to fans, even if it gets you back in the city.

-Phoenix Footprint Center. There's no going back home again. I doubt the NHL has the stomach for it a third time (how soon we forget the Barclays Center)

-Tucson. Yeah, they floated the possibility of playing in their AHL barn. No one took it too far, though.

-ASU. This is today's winner, but it definitely has problems, as pointed out in this thread. The NHL has let teams endure some humiliating situations for some teams to play temporarily, but are they willing to sit through four years of an NHL franchise drawing fewer fans than some ECHL teams?

Of course, there's still the chance that Tempe sees the circus Meruelo has had in Glendale and say no thanks to bringing it to the East Valley. If that's the case, one would have to believe the NHL would have to move the team, but they've given the Coyotes a long leash so far. And to be fair to the fans that have stuck it out with them, this isn't a fan problem. The groundwork was never done properly for the franchise, they've had about one decent owner throughout their history, and you can't blame the local Joe that wants to get into them for tuning them out. Basically, to date, this team never stood a chance of succeeding here.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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And, controversially, I’ll add ATLANTA as a prospective home for NHL hockey. Downtown fails as a hockey market, twice - but a proper arena in Cobb Country at The Battery would be a great success.
I wouldn't rule Atlanta out, either. The fans weren't the problem with the Thrashers. The complete shit show that was the Atlanta Spirit Group finished off a team that was a mess from Day 1.
I think the limit is with ownership groups that exist TODAY and have an arena that is at least mildly acceptable until a new one can be built. I don't know if Atlanta really has either (and no, Philips doesn't count, since I can't see ASG letting them in)
imagine the Bruins were in Woburn.
Boston doesn't really have a comparable because the 128/495 rings pretty well spread the fanbase in all directions around Boston. Cities like Kansas City might have more of a comparison to offer.

More teams in Canada.
This is where someone shouts about Quebec City being overdue, but it'd instantly be the smallest market in the NHL, and it'd force another realignment that puts an ETZ team into the Western Conference. Not a chance, and I feel bad for people in QC for it. They're being played bad by Bettman.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Boston doesn't really have a comparable because the 128/495 rings pretty well spread the fanbase in all directions around Boston. Cities like Kansas City might have more of a comparison to offer.
Yeah, I guess I don't know what the right comp is. Glendale sucks is all.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There’s no universe in which it costs $15M to $25M to build a locker room…they’d use very nicely dressed up portables. Not ideal, but not a deal-breaker.
I think "locker rooms" was understating what needed to be done. What i believe was the original article, along with an unnamed source - https://www.gophnx.com/2022/01/27/coyotes-in-advanced-discussions-with-asu-to-use-new-multi-purpose-venue-as-interim-arena-solution/ - mentioned "team areas," which would include locker rooms, training facilities, weight rooms and the like. Given that the ASU arena is scheduled for completion this fall, I would assume that adding all of this in at the last minute would be super pricey.
 

mwonow

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More teams in Canada.
Requoting for truth. To quote a long-ago Don Cherry rant, they should never put a team anyplace where they call "hockey," "Ice hockey."

Hamilton isn't big (a bit over 500K, 700K if you include Burlington on the other side of the bay) but EVERYONE knows and cares about hockey (soccer too, if the crowd after the US/Canada game was any indication). And Quebec would be awesome in some ways, but it's isolated and cold and a government town - kind of like a French-speaking Edmonton, without oil.

Ignore the Leafs, and c'mon into Hamilton! 19K arena is set to go.
 

TomBrunansky23

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Requoting for truth. To quote a long-ago Don Cherry rant, they should never put a team anyplace where they call "hockey," "Ice hockey."

Hamilton isn't big (a bit over 500K, 700K if you include Burlington on the other side of the bay) but EVERYONE knows and cares about hockey (soccer too, if the crowd after the US/Canada game was any indication). And Quebec would be awesome in some ways, but it's isolated and cold and a government town - kind of like a French-speaking Edmonton, without oil.

Ignore the Leafs, and c'mon into Hamilton! 19K arena is set to go.
Yeah this is no bueno with the Sabres either. The BlackBerry (remember those?) folks tried this 15 years ago and it got shot down. To echo the above I'd handicap Houston followed by KC as the places they are most likely to end up.
 

Fred not Lynn

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The NHL is being careful to leave the juicy un-hockeyed markets (like Quebec City) open; Lots more money in expansion than relocation…
 

Sandwich Pick

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The NHL is being careful to leave the juicy un-hockeyed markets (like Quebec City) open; Lots more money in expansion than relocation…
That's one of the reasons why Bettman wouldn't let Balsillie move the team to Hamilton. It also really didn't help that Moyes and Balsillie royally pissed Bettman off by how they tried to make that happen.

From Bettman's biography: preview was cut off on the next page. This is to supplement the outstanding post by MiracleO above.

Screenshot_20220203-231542_Chrome.jpg
 

JOBU

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I mean, I get it. I do. But it's not like the 'Canes would relinquish the old branding.

Also:

7,122,240 > 1,214,295
Not really fair to compare the whole AZ state pop vs the Hartford metro area. Misleading! Really 7.2M to 3.5M when you include state populations like you did for AZ. Or 4 something million to 1.2M. Is the Hartford/New Haven market still the largest without a pro sports team? I know it used to be. The Hartford market would be a better fit than Phoenix and many current NHL cities in my opinion.. With that said the nhl is never coming back to CT. I came to grips with this at least 10 years ago. Especially if they keep trying to upgrade the civic center (it will always be the civic center or mall to me). That building was an absolute shithole from the day it opened. Remember when the roof collapsed when it was like a year or two old? Good times! Going to Whalers and UConn games, in the 90’s as a 10-16 year old kid, I didn’t know any better. But my god what an awful “experience” looking back on it.
 

Bozo Texino

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Not really fair to compare the whole AZ state pop vs the Hartford metro area. Misleading! Really 7.2M to 3.5M when you include state populations like you did for AZ. Or 4 something million to 1.2M. Is the Hartford/New Haven market still the largest without a pro sports team? I know it used to be. The Hartford market would be a better fit than Phoenix and many current NHL cities in my opinion.. With that said the nhl is never coming back to CT. I came to grips with this at least 10 years ago. Especially if they keep trying to upgrade the civic center (it will always be the civic center or mall to me). That building was an absolute shithole from the day it opened. Remember when the roof collapsed when it was like a year or two old? Good times! Going to Whalers and UConn games, in the 90’s as a 10-16 year old kid, I didn’t know any better. But my god what an awful “experience” looking back on it.
I was comparing the size of Hartford with Houston.
 

Mr. Wednesday

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This is the first and likely last time I'll post in a hockey forum because I'm just not a hockey guy. I did have a curiosity about the game for a few years in the '70's and remember the WHA. If they are able to use the Toyota Center I say bring on the Houston Aeros.
Just about the only trophy that the Aeros (under the guise of various franchises) haven't won is the Stanley Cup. They have the Avco, Turner, and Calder Cups. Their first Turner Cup team was a lot of fun to watch.