Cora in line for major suspension?

Status
Not open for further replies.

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
Given that MLB is conducting an investigation into the 2018 allegations, the Sox taking action on Cora now could be construed as potential interference into the investigation. I'm OK with Henry waiting until the investigation is over. Especially as the 2018 "stealing" seemed to be far less nefarious than what the Astros did in 2017, and all we have so far is a media report.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Given that MLB is conducting an investigation into the 2018 allegations, the Sox taking action on Cora now could be construed as potential interference into the investigation. I'm OK with Henry waiting until the investigation is over. Especially as the 2018 "stealing" seemed to be far less nefarious than what the Astros did in 2017, and all we have so far is a media report.
How so? It's not like the investigation would come to a screeching halt. I think the only reason Cora is still around is because the Sox want to give him the opportunity to sit with them, and explain EVERYTHING including what to expect MLB will uncover in the 2018 investigation.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
That's fair. Bottom line is we don't know what John Henry and company know. We also don't know when they learned whatever they know. I just don't agree with the reactionary "why haven't they fired him yet?" stuff. I'm not sure what is gained firing him today versus after MLB's investigations are concluded, particularly if it turns out that the "cheating" didn't carry over to Boston (again, I think it did but not on the scale that occurred in Houston).
One thing to be gained (depending on how long the MLB investigation might go) is the opportunity to head into spring training with with the manager that you're expecting to lead this team. Of course you could make this argument for the certain suspension that looms as well, but if the Sox decide to move on from Cora they might be better served to do so sooner rather than later as any potential replacement might want to make some changes to the coaching staff and again I think the club might be better served if that is taken care of before spring training.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
One thing to be gained (depending on how long the MLB investigation might go) is the opportunity to head into spring training with with the manager that you're expecting to lead this team. Of course you could make this argument for the certain suspension that looms as well, but if the Sox decide to move on from Cora they might be better served to do so sooner rather than later as any potential replacement might want to make some changes to the coaching staff and again I think the club might be better served if that is taken care of before spring training.
I doubt there is anything in Cora's contract that prevents the Sox from immediately beginning their search for a replacement manager. Cora is not managing the team in 2020 and the Sox should not waste any time in preparing for the season.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,559
Here
Passan said he might be banned from Baseball. I doubt it happens, but here’s the timeline, were that to occur:

1989: Pete Rose banned from baseball for betting on his own team and violating the sanctity of honest competition (I guess).

2019: Alex Cora banned from baseball for stealing signs and violating the sanctity of honest betting.

I cannot fathom how insane these punishments are. Why wasn’t Pineda banned from baseball? What about Jon Lester for his shaving cream stuff? Sammy Sosa for hid bat cork? The Blue Jays have been stealing signs for decades with their CF camera, it’s an open secret. Why is a GM getting suspended and fired over this? Why not force the owner to sell at this point?

What the hell is this happening?
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
I doubt there is anything in Cora's contract that prevents the Sox from immediately beginning their search for a replacement manager. Cora is not managing the team in 2020 and the Sox should not waste any time in preparing for the season.
But the question remains is it a short or long term solution and I think that is important to potential candidates who may want to bring in some of their own people.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,273
AZ
Passan said he might be banned from Baseball. I doubt it happens, but here’s the timeline, were that to occur:

1989: Pete Rose banned from baseball for betting on his own team and violating the sanctity of honest competition (I guess).

2019: Alex Cora banned from baseball for stealing signs and violating the sanctity of honest betting.

I cannot fathom how insane these punishments are. Why wasn’t Pineda banned from baseball? What about Jon Lester for his shaving cream stuff? Sammy Sosa for hid bat cork? The Blue Jays have been stealing signs for decades with their CF camera, it’s an open secret. Why is a GM getting suspended and fired over this? Why not force the owner to sell at this point?

What the hell is this happening?
Manfred went all in on the boys will be boys theory of player punishment though he dressed it up. It is a bit different from how we regard players with respect to PEDs, which is treated as a personal responsibility. I guess because it is harder to know whether a player is sticking needles in his ass?

But from yesterday forward, there is zero doubt. Cheating is a management responsibility, and woe unto the manager who tries to hide behind willful blindness.
 

gkelly53

New Member
Aug 6, 2019
23
Manfred went all in on the boys will be boys theory of player punishment though he dressed it up. It is a bit different from how we regard players with respect to PEDs, which is treated as a personal responsibility. I guess because it is harder to know whether a player is sticking needles in his ass?

But from yesterday forward, there is zero doubt. Cheating is a management responsibility, and woe unto the manager who tries to hide behind willful blindness.
Also Front Offices do not have the luxury of a union to back them up. So there can be no appeal process. Had players been suspended the Union would not stand for it
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,559
Here
Manfred went all in on the boys will be boys theory of player punishment though he dressed it up. It is a bit different from how we regard players with respect to PEDs, which is treated as a personal responsibility. I guess because it is harder to know whether a player is sticking needles in his ass?

But from yesterday forward, there is zero doubt. Cheating is a management responsibility, and woe unto the manager who tries to hide behind willful blindness.
Pitchers are caught every year red handed with a foreign substance on their person or uniform, which is indisputable. Pineda got caught twice and was suspended like 1-2 starts.

Moving forward, will these will be lifetime bans? Or is this just a coy “haha gamesmanship” thing. It’s all very confusing now.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,273
AZ
Pitchers are caught every year red handed with a foreign substance on their person or uniform, which is indisputable. Pineda got caught twice and was suspended like 1-2 starts.

Moving forward, will these will be lifetime bans? Or is this just a coy “haha gamesmanship” thing. It’s all very confusing now.
I dont feel like it is confusing at all. I think the answer is clearly “no”.

You may not like the lines Manfred is drawing on player v. manager responsibility. But the one thing they are not — I gues to me at least — is confusing.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
I dont feel like it is confusing at all. I think the answer is clearly “no”.

You may not like the lines Manfred is drawing on player v. manager responsibility. But the one thing they are not — I guess to me at least — is confusing.
Ok, but managers tend to be pretty smart about baseball stuff (there are exceptions, as we well know). They can frequently tell when the slightest thing looks off with their pitchers. So when Pineda is rubbing the big black patch of pine tar on his neck, I'm pretty sure the manager knows it. Next time he does something like that, does the manager get a one-year suspension for allowing the cheating (or perhaps a shorter penalty, if it's just a one-player-cheating issue)? What if some former player from the team blows the whistle - "everyone knew he was doctoring the ball!"

That's not crystal clear at this point.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
But the question remains is it a short or long term solution and I think that is important to potential candidates who may want to bring in some of their own people.
Whether it's short or long-term is under the control of the Sox. A suspension is grounds for a termination of Cora's contract. Cora is not irreplaceable, so even if he only receives a 1-year suspension why would they want to bring him back? How could they trust him not to do something else to kneecap the team?
 
Last edited:

Dewey'sCannon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
869
Maryland
Even if you, or the team, think it's precipitous to fire Cora today, I think they have more than sufficient grounds to place him on an indefinite suspension (with pay) for what's already come out about his involvement with the Astros in 2017, and the likelihood that he will be suspended for at least a year just for that, and say that this action is pending the outcome of the investigation of the 2018 Red Sox. And this would allow them to at least pursue a manager for an interim role right away. But since they probably are going to need to find a permanent replacement, better to rip the band-aid off now and fire him so you can move as quickly as possible to get the replacement in place before spring training.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
33,249
this is a tough situation, because I bet MLB Is nowhere close to being done with our investigation. maybe they've expedited it.
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,613
The scale of these punishments is insane to me, and I think Manfred is going to regret it. A "one strike you're out" policy of career dismemberment is shortsighted foolishness at its finest, and the kind of shit I would have expected from a Roger Goodell, not the commish of MLB.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,273
AZ
Ok, but managers tend to be pretty smart about baseball stuff (there are exceptions, as we well know). They can frequently tell when the slightest thing looks off with their pitchers. So when Pineda is rubbing the big black patch of pine tar on his neck, I'm pretty sure the manager knows it. Next time he does something like that, does the manager get a one-year suspension for allowing the cheating (or perhaps a shorter penalty, if it's just a one-player-cheating issue)? What if some former player from the team blows the whistle - "everyone knew he was doctoring the ball!"

That's not crystal clear at this point.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to be that manager.

The good thing about the report is that Manfred is the anti-Goodell. He seems to mean what he says and he says what he means. He doesn't try to obscure the bullshit of a predetermined decision with extra words. You have to understand that a sentence can mean a lot. I think the penalties in the report are too harsh. Especially for Luhnow. But if I were a manger reading the report I do not think I would be confused about my responsibility.

One of the key components to the report -- though again he doesn't hit you over the head with it -- is that part of the reason the players are exonerated is that Cora was actually on the replay phone relaying information, so they have a right to think their conduct was being condoned by management. This is a crucial insight into how Manfred sees the world (and to understanding what is going to happen to Cora).

So, to answer the question that Ed posed more directly -- I expect that if Pineda gets caught with pine tar, his penalty will be business as usual. If a manager knew about it, encouraged it, or was willfully blind about a scheme to use pinetar, I would think he's fucked. And if a memo came out about pinetar the day before, the manager is double fucked.

Put it this way -- let's say that Yankees are meeting in the clubhouse to talk about where to hide pine tar, and Boone knows about it and doesn't do anything about it. And he gets suspended for a year. Could there possibly be outrage? If I'm Manfred, I think my response is "what, you thought I was joking"?

I remember that Amare Stoudamire came off the bench during a fight in a playoff game. It was half hearted. He didn't jump on the pile or anything. Afterwards, there was all sorts of coverage on the various media outlets about whether he would get suspended. The next game was the determining game in the series. It was the playoffs. He didn't actually get involved in the fight. All the talking heads were making broad, sweeping arguments about whether what he did contributes to on court incidents or not, and whether it was within the spirit of the rule, blah blah blah. Stern suspended him. I can't remember exactly what his comment was, but it was to the effect of -- "what part of don't come off the bench for a fight did you not understand"?

If cheating happens in your clubhouse and you know about it or turn your cheek to it without stopping it, you're fucked. The end. If it happens and Manfred turns a blind eye in the future, I'll eat my words. I don't think he's fucking around.
 

mfried

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 23, 2005
1,680
just seeing this... very disappointed Cora was behind the trash cans as well.

I would just fire him and move on. very sad
I find it very sad as well. I continue to like the guy, and appreciate his status as Puerto Rican manager. Ironic that Houston scored 100 more runs on the road without this elaborate nonsense.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
A suspension is grounds for a termination of Cora's contract.
While I think I understand what you are saying, the broad statement you make to convey your opinion is almost certainly incorrect.

I’m guessing that there is language in the contract that allows it to be voided for specific, unacceptable behavior. I cannot imagine that “a suspension” is listed. And if, as we all assume, he is fired at the end of this, Cora may very well have a case to collect the remainder of his contract.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

family crest has godzilla
SoSH Member
Jul 26, 2007
3,721
The Short Bus
The scale of these punishments is insane to me, and I think Manfred is going to regret it. A "one strike you're out" policy of career dismemberment is shortsighted foolishness at its finest, and the kind of shit I would have expected from a Roger Goodell, not the commish of MLB.
IIRC, the Cardinals employee who got into the Astros database did/is doing prison time, is permanently banned from MLB, and the Cards had to forfeit draft picks and cash to the Astros. The penalties are harsh, but i think it is consistent with what he has dished out in the past.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Whether it's short or long-term is under the control of the Sox. A suspension is grounds for a termination of Cora's contract. Cora is not irreplaceable, so even if he only receives a 1-year suspension why would they want to bring him back? How could they trust him not to do something else to kneecap the team?
I'm not disagreeing, but there has been no indication so it is a legit question concerning if something is done on an interim basis or with an eye further toward the future of the team. I'm also guessing Bloom might like to get started with the process sooner rather than later.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,678
Miami (oh, Miami!)
So, to answer the question that Ed posed more directly -- I expect that if Pineda gets caught with pine tar, his penalty will be business as usual. If a manager knew about it, encouraged it, or was willfully blind about a scheme to use pinetar, I would think he's fucked. And if a memo came out about pinetar the day before, the manager is double fucked.
There was a lot of good reasoning in your post, but I wanted to single this out.

I'd say there's a difference between an individual breaking the rules of the game in a game, and a top-down organizational effort to rig games on an ongoing basis by violating a clear rule. In the case of the first, you don't want to punitively sanction the player by stripping them of their career. In the case of the second, you don't want to encourage "maybe cheating until it becomes too risky to cheat."

There are going to be borderline cases, but this isn't one of them.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
edit: looks like I replied to a now-banned lurker. I'll spoiler my reply but leave it for posterity, nothing interesting to see here.

you cant really say this, whose to say the Sox even make the playoffs if they werent cheating during the season, given that in 2019 with basically the same team didnt even qualify for the playoffs.

logically if Cora got away With something less than Kosher in houston, he would have no compunction not to bring it o his first managerial opportunity. so depending on the outcome of the investigation, the Entire 2018 season is under question
To assert this, you're going to need to bring more evidence than just capitalizing "Kosher" and "Entire" (and not "houston").

As previously stated, player health explains the greatest portion of the difference between 2018 and 2019. And no small amount of luck. Even in the worst imaginable scenario, nothing Cora could have been doing would have explained a decrease in our pitchers' performance.

Then you've got the matter of MLB personally supervising the replay videos during the entire playoffs.

There's a burden of proof here that MLB themselves have said they haven't met and are still investigating. I'm not sure why you're so confident that you know better enough to make these judgments.

who was it who changed the pitchers regimen during spring training? cora right. So 2018 was definitely tainted. you can make all the excuses you want, but thats all they are. EXCUSES
Uh, 'round here we tend to start with logic. You, too, start your earlier post with "logically...". So people are pointing out how your logic is hugely flawed, and you're falling back on shouting "EXCUSES!"?

Until you can explain to some of us how you go from "Cora changing the pitchers' training regimen" to "therefore, this was cheating", I think you're making unfounded accusations. Nobody in baseball media has reported on anything having to do with Cora's misconduct other than (A) communicating stolen signs while at the Astros, and (B) permitting, maybe even encouraging, batters to decode sign systems using video and then go try to implement it on the basepaths. I'm gonna need some plausible theory-of-the-crime on the pitching side before I think you get to label anyone saying otherwise as excuse-makers. If you say "the moon is made of green cheese" and we point out that we've been there and it's mostly iron and inorganic compounds, you don't get to turn around and call us "deniers". That's not how words work.
 
Last edited:

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
I doubt there is anything in Cora's contract that prevents the Sox from immediately beginning their search for a replacement manager. Cora is not managing the team in 2020 and the Sox should not waste any time in preparing for the season.
This assumes that they aren't just going to roll with Roenicke this year, see how things go, and use the season as an extended audition process for various other coaches they may have their eye on, which in my mind would be a pretty defensible approach - there is a strong argument to be made that given where we are in the offseason some level of managerial continuity would be very valuable. Now, it's of course possible that Roenicke also gets punished or implicated in the forthcoming report on the Red Sox, but that's just another reason for the Sox to not do anything until that report and whatever penalties come with are finalized.

Put another way I find it highly unlikely that the Sox are going to hire their "manager of the future" between now and the start of the season - it's either going to be Roenicke or a similar "caretaker" type with a lot of experience but no expectation that he'll be the manager beyond this year.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
I'd say there's a difference between an individual breaking the rules of the game in a game, and a top-down organizational effort to rig games on an ongoing basis by violating a clear rule. In the case of the first, you don't want to punitively sanction the player by stripping them of their career. In the case of the second, you don't want to encourage "maybe cheating until it becomes too risky to cheat."
Right, the relevant comparison isn't "player caught using pine tar/corked bat/etc. in one game" but rather "team knowingly allowing ALL their pitchers to use pine tar all the time and covering it up" or "team replacing all their hitters' bats with corked bats." And I don't think in the latter scenario anyone would be at all surprised if serious punishments were handed out.
 

Traut

lost his degree
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
12,750
My Desk
Put another way I find it highly unlikely that the Sox are going to hire their "manager of the future" between now and the start of the season - it's either going to be Roenicke or a similar "caretaker" type with a lot of experience but no expectation that he'll be the manager beyond this year.
In today's world - unless your manager is an idiot ala Bobby Valentine - any manager will be receptive to data and analytics if he wants to stick around. The biggest job in managing a MLB team is keeping guys motivated over roughly 200 games. The in game job is hardly complicated. It's not close to being a football coach.

And my guess is that after so many years a guy's schtick whatever it is wears thin. Hence the turnover and rehiring by some other team.

I can't imagine the Red Sox put a ton of stock in who manages beyond a guy who will connect with players, use multiple data points (analytics and scouting) and not mess things up.

Said another way, I doubt the Vegas line moves either way if the Sox replace Cora with Roenicke.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,273
AZ
There was a lot of good reasoning in your post, but I wanted to single this out.

I'd say there's a difference between an individual breaking the rules of the game in a game, and a top-down organizational effort to rig games on an ongoing basis by violating a clear rule. In the case of the first, you don't want to punitively sanction the player by stripping them of their career. In the case of the second, you don't want to encourage "maybe cheating until it becomes too risky to cheat."

There are going to be borderline cases, but this isn't one of them.
Yeah, I was trying to make it about a scheme hatched in the clubhouse rather than a gameday in the moment thing, but in general I agree that there is some room for degrees under Manfred's seeming reasoning.

A pitching coach seeing a player who scuffs a ball during a mound visit deciding to wait until after the game to say something, etc.

But in general, if I'm a manager in the MLB this morning, I think I have a pretty clear sense that part of my job is to actively root out and discourage cheating in my clubhouse, and I also have a firm understanding that turning my cheek isn't enough.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,678
Miami (oh, Miami!)
edit: looks like I replied to a now-banned lurker. I'll spoiler my reply but leave it for posterity, nothing interesting to see here.

To assert this, you're going to need to bring more evidence than just capitalizing "Kosher" and "Entire" (and not "houston").

As previously stated, player health explains the greatest portion of the difference between 2018 and 2019. And no small amount of luck. Even in the worst imaginable scenario, nothing Cora could have been doing would have explained a decrease in our pitchers' performance.

Then you've got the matter of MLB personally supervising the replay videos during the entire playoffs.

There's a burden of proof here that MLB themselves have said they haven't met and are still investigating. I'm not sure why you're so confident that you know better enough to make these judgments.


Uh, 'round here we tend to start with logic. You, too, start your earlier post with "logically...". So people are pointing out how your logic is hugely flawed, and you're falling back on shouting "EXCUSES!"?

Until you can explain to some of us how you go from "Cora changing the pitchers' training regimen" to "therefore, this was cheating", I think you're making unfounded accusations. Nobody in baseball media has reported on anything having to do with Cora's misconduct other than (A) communicating stolen signs while at the Astros, and (B) permitting, maybe even encouraging, batters to decode sign systems using video and then go try to implement it on the basepaths. I'm gonna need some plausible theory-of-the-crime on the pitching side before I think you get to label anyone saying otherwise as excuse-makers. If you say "the moon is made of green cheese" and we point out that we've been there and it's mostly iron and inorganic compounds, you don't get to turn around and call us "deniers". That's not how words work.
Paranoid, illogical, and having an indifferent command of capitalization is no way to go through life, son.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
The scale of these punishments is insane to me, and I think Manfred is going to regret it. A "one strike you're out" policy of career dismemberment is shortsighted foolishness at its finest, and the kind of shit I would have expected from a Roger Goodell, not the commish of MLB.
In this business, everybody except superstar players are replaceable. Managers are replaceable, front office staff are replaceable, most players are replaceable, even owners are replaceable - there are always eager billionaires out there. In environments like that, you see much harsher penalties because there's little downside to erring on the side of "protect the business". It's more true in the militaristic NFL than it is in baseball, but sports leagues are mostly alike in this - your career is short and transactional (until and unless you're a face-of-the-franchise star) and behind every employee is 10 more people who want their job. It's an oligarchic club, it's not like "dismembering careers" is going to be bad for business once competitors pick up all the talent that was blackballed too soon.

Let's also point out that they're not being blackballed - those punished so far got one-season suspensions. Taubman might be, but Luhnow and Hinch and likely Cora too will get other roles in baseball once their suspensions are over. I would bet money on it. You don't get to those positions without having a big network of friends in the business, someone will do them a solid once their name is off the front page.
 
Jul 5, 2018
430
While I think I understand what you are saying, the broad statement you make to convey your opinion is almost certainly incorrect.

I’m guessing that there is language in the contract that allows it to be voided for specific, unacceptable behavior. I cannot imagine that “a suspension” is listed. And if, as we all assume, he is fired at the end of this, Cora may very well have a case to collect the remainder of his contract.
A suspension will mean that he can't perform under the terms of the contract. How could that not terminate the agreement? Why would the Sox be obligated to go through the inconvience of
While I think I understand what you are saying, the broad statement you make to convey your opinion is almost certainly incorrect.

I’m guessing that there is language in the contract that allows it to be voided for specific, unacceptable behavior. I cannot imagine that “a suspension” is listed. And if, as we all assume, he is fired at the end of this, Cora may very well have a case to collect the remainder of his contract.
I couldn't find a contract form for MLB managers, but the player's contract refers to "Good Citizenship" which is vague. As for suspensions over PED use, teams have been unsuccessful in terminating contracts. If the Sox incur some penalties from Cora's activities in 2018, I can't see them losing in court.

Any MLB suspensions are without pay, so a 2-year suspension would effectively end any financial obligations to Cora.

Please ignore the first part of my post.
 
Last edited:

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
According to Dan Shaughnessy, the Sox may be standing behind Cora:

The Red Sox need to fire Alex Cora now. Yesterday, if possible. Don’t wait for MLB to tell you what to do. Just do the right thing.

After speaking with two sources with direct knowledge of the situation, I get a sense that the Sox are going to stand by their man and ride this out. They just love Alex Cora, and we understand that.

But this is not an episode that calls for traditional, media-blaming defiance. This is not the time for the Sox to stick behind their guy. The Red Sox are an important local institution. Firing Cora now, before MLB’s next set of sanctions is issued, before it becomes obvious to everyone that Cora must go, allows the Sox to preserve some institutional dignity and let history record that they did the right thing.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
A suspension will mean that he can't perform under the terms of the contract. How could that not terminate the agreement? Why would the Sox be obligated to go through the inconvience of


I couldn't find a contract form for MLB managers, but the player's contract refers to "Good Citizenship" which is vague. As for suspensions over PED use, teams have been unsuccessful in terminating contracts. If the Sox incur some penalties from Cora's activities in 2018, I can't see them losing in court.

Any MLB suspensions are without pay, so a 2-year suspension would effectively end any financial obligations to Cora.
If the term of any suspension without pay covers the remainder of his contract, then the contract is effectively terminated.

However, a suspension itself does not terminate a contract. If the suspension did not cover the entire term of the contract, the Sox would be obligated to pay the remainder of the contract unless the specific behavior called out in the suspension is prohibited in the contract.

Here’s an example from a different industry: Over a decade ago, Don Imus was fired from his CBS radio gig (on WFAN) after making racist comments about the Rutgers women’s basketball team. He collected the remainder owed to him.

The Sox may be able to void Cora’s contract. But we can’t know without seeing it.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,368
Passan said he might be banned from Baseball. I doubt it happens, but here’s the timeline, were that to occur:

1989: Pete Rose banned from baseball for betting on his own team and violating the sanctity of honest competition (I guess).

2019: Alex Cora banned from baseball for stealing signs and violating the sanctity of honest betting.

I cannot fathom how insane these punishments are. Why wasn’t Pineda banned from baseball? What about Jon Lester for his shaving cream stuff? Sammy Sosa for hid bat cork? The Blue Jays have been stealing signs for decades with their CF camera, it’s an open secret. Why is a GM getting suspended and fired over this? Why not force the owner to sell at this point?

What the hell is this happening?
Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were banned from baseball by Commissioner Kuhn for doing promo work for a casino.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,993
Newton
It will be tougher to stand by your man when he receives a lifetime ban.
Which, I'm sorry, would be the stupidest punishment in the history of sports.

Maybe Cora should be fired for some sort of continuation for what he apparently did in Houston with the Red Sox who were already on thin ice. But a lifetime ban? Come on ... that would mean MLB would effectively be penalizing the Red Sox more harshly than the Astros for this. That can't be allowed to happen -- and if I were the Red Sox FO, I wouldn't just stand by and let it happen either.

I don't think Cora should be fired for any of this, frankly. It's not clear to me that what happened with the Astros was some grave offense to the integrity of the game, much less what happened with the Sox. But if they're standing behind him beyond just waiting for the report to come out, my guess is that they think Cora is being treated unfairly in some way or taking the fall for the Astros. And if he is, I think that's the right call on their part.
 

opes

Doctor Tongue
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
It will be tougher to stand by your man when he's banned from the game.
Are we seriously considering Cora could be banned for life? I mean, throwing a world series and betting on baseball is bad, but thinking of the most clever way to steal signs in baseball isnt at that level.

Edit: To add, I think the worst case scenario is he goes under suspension like Hinch, and the Sox fire him. He might have a hard time finding another manager job in the future and in a sense thats a weak way to completely remove him from baseball. Its possible, but I seriously doubt Manfred outright banishes him from baseball.
No way around it, Cora's fucked. I just don't see how the Sox keep him on board and continue to receive the fallout of Cora's prior sins.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
Pitchers are caught every year red handed with a foreign substance on their person or uniform, which is indisputable. Pineda got caught twice and was suspended like 1-2 starts.

Moving forward, will these will be lifetime bans? Or is this just a coy “haha gamesmanship” thing. It’s all very confusing now.
I think this line of comparisons is on to something.

The corked bats and grip-improving substances are one off player decisions to cheat.

What the Red Sox were doing strikes me as similar to the way teams turned a blind eye to steroids and other performance enhancing substances on their teams. And the way teams will sign guys who have previously been suspended for steroids in the testing era.

What the Astros did is akin to what Pete Rose did—bet on his own team to win.

So, I’m ok with pretty draconian penalties for what the Astros did; I think the Sox penalties should be more in line with the steroids penalties.
 

Archer1979

shazowies
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
7,870
Right Here
I would say nothing is off the table based on what I've read (most of which was linked in this and other threads).

But as Nip once said in the Ghostbuster reboot thread... "This is bad, this is Mom has cancer bad."

From an organizational standpoint, I don't know how the Sox ownership gets out in front of this. It's almost a guarantee that Cora isn't managing in 2020. The Sox only hope is that their sign-stealing thing is penny-ante in comparison to the Astros' scheme. But even with that, this is their second strike so any hit they get is going to be a hard one.

The best case to me is to suspend Cora pending the outcome of the investigation and start the search for an interim/possibly permanent manager. The only silver lining in all this is that Bloom isn't involved so they will have that level of leadership intact to start the season.
 

Dewey'sCannon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
869
Maryland
Here's why I think Manfred will bring the hammer down on Cora:

1. As far as 2017 goes, Hinch bears more responsibility since he was the manager, not "just" a coach, but Cora was heavily and directly involved, much more than Hinch. So Cora probably gets at least a year suspension just for 2017.
2. For 2018, Cora is the manager, so he's responsible for what happens on his watch (as is DD), especially after the Red Sox and everyone else were put on specific notice in Sept. 2017 following the Apple Watch situation. Depending on his level of involvement (ranging from failure to supervise/letting it happen, to encouraging, to actively participating), he'll probably get another year tacked on, or more if Manfred feels it was blatant misconduct and disregard of a clear and direct order.

We may not like it, and may not think it's fair, but that's where I see this going. They are going to need a new manager, and probably more than an interim one.
 

24JoshuaPoint

Grand Theft Duvet
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,944
Cell Block C
Not that it means anything but Cora is still listed as attending the Red Sox Winter Weekend at Foxwoods this weekend (as of 2 minutes ago). It's usually a pretty big event; this cloud of cheating is probably a bit of a nightmare for PR for the event.

edit - show is at MGM in springfield this year, my mistake - thank you Lose
 
Last edited:
Jul 5, 2018
430
Which, I'm sorry, would be the stupidest punishment in the history of sports.

Maybe Cora should be fired for some sort of continuation for what he apparently did in Houston with the Red Sox who were already on thin ice. But a lifetime ban? Come on ... that would mean MLB would effectively be penalizing the Red Sox more harshly than the Astros for this. That can't be allowed to happen -- and if I were the Red Sox FO, I wouldn't just stand by and let it happen either.

I don't think Cora should be fired for any of this, frankly. It's not clear to me that what happened with the Astros was some grave offense to the integrity of the game, much less what happened with the Sox. But if they're standing behind him beyond just waiting for the report to come out, my guess is that they think Cora is being treated unfairly in some way or taking the fall for the Astros. And if he is, I think that's the right call on their part.
I don't see how it's possible to defend Cora. When this story broke there was a huge outcry and a call for significant penalties for the Astros. There was also a thread in this forum where posters proposed things like a ban from the playoffs. How could Cora be oblivious to the risks he was taking on behalf of the organization? Did he believe that if they were busted, he could just say "Well, all teams do the same thing" and everything would be OK? Did he believe that, although the rule of thumb is that no more than 2 people can keep a secret and that's only if one of them is dead, 68 people could do so? He showed horrible judgement that reflects on him as a person.

Depending on how effective the scheme was, Cora benifited financially. Bench coaches make between $150 and 250K compared to the individual WS share of $440K for the 2017 Astros.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,368
Not that it means anything but Cora is still listed as attending the Red Sox Winter Weekend at Foxwoods this weekend (as of 2 minutes ago). It's usually a pretty big event; this cloud of cheating is probably a bit of a nightmare for PR for the event.
I heard Mutnansky on WEEI say Cora is supposed to be on the radio on Friday promoting this event. Mutnansky stated that Cora would be asked about the sign stealing if he does do the radio appearance.

Cora is also supposed to be in town at the baseball writers dinner on Thursday.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.