Cooks and pick traded to the Rams for picks

E5 Yaz

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23, 31, and a second rounder get you close.
By the traditional Jimmy Johnson chart, picks 23, 31 and 43 would be enough to push the Pats past the Broncos and into the fourth overall pick. It would be strange to see the Pats trade up for what would possibly be the fourth quarterback of this year's draft, but they also don't appear to have the resources to move up to the second overall pick unless they deal away their 2019 first-rounder or another player off of their roster. Could Trey Flowers, himself a free agent after this season, be enough to convince the Giants to move down from the second pick for that package?
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22680603/2018-nfl-free-agency-grades-big-trades-signings-moves-offseason-bill-barnwell
 

Greekca

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To me, any time spent debating or contemplating moving into the very top of the first round is wasted breath. Belichick has never and will never be the guy to put all his eggs in one basket. He knows the crapshoot that is the NFL draft. Hell, he knows the crapshoot that is free agency as well. Until he gets a guy in his building and has worked with him for a couple weeks in his system he doesn't really know what he has. His most common phrase after bringing in a new player is that he is happy to get a chance to work with the guy and see what he's got.

So, no matter how sure he is in his valuation, I really don't see him sacrificing 3 or 4 top picks to bring in a guy that has less than a 50/50 shot of even being able to start in the NFL. Doing things like that and missing is how you end up at the bottom of the standings for multiple years. Heck, think how much missing on Dominique Easley and Cyrus Jones has handicapped this team recently.
 

BigSoxFan

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Heck, think how much missing on Dominique Easley and Cyrus Jones has handicapped this team recently.
They’ve made 3 SBs since Easley was drafted and won 2. They’ve made 2 SBs since Jones was drafted and won 1. Busting on both players hasn’t really impacted anything.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Has there ever been a team trading out of the top 5 and the best pick they received for it is in the 20's? No matter how many 2nd rounders are included. That just doesn't seem to happen, draft chart be damned.
 

BigSoxFan

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Has there ever been a team trading out of the top 5 and the best pick they received for it is in the 20's? No matter how many 2nd rounders are included. That just doesn't seem to happen, draft chart be damned.
The Goff trade was close. At the time it was made, the Titans moved back from #1 to #15.
 

Greekca

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They’ve made 3 SBs since Easley was drafted and won 2. They’ve made 2 SBs since Jones was drafted and won 1. Busting on both players hasn’t really impacted anything.
The team has persevered but to say there hasn’t been an impact seems a little ridiculous to me. The two biggest needs on the defensive side of the ball right now are DL that can get to the quarterback and a starting CB. The two very roles that Easley and Jones were drafted to do.

Missing on early round picks has long term effects not only on your drafting strategy but also your salary cap.
 

BigSoxFan

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The team has persevered but to say there hasn’t been an impact seems a little ridiculous to me. The two biggest needs on the defensive side of the ball right now are DL that can get to the quarterback and a starting CB. The two very roles that Easley and Jones were drafted to do.

Missing on early round picks has long term effects not only on your drafting strategy but also your salary cap.
Of course there’s been some impact but there have been other events that have contributed, such as the DFG penalties. Cyrus had a bad first season but then he got hurt last preseason so there’s still a sliver of hope for him that he’ll be able to contribute.

In my opinion, it’s more ridiculous to pretend that we know what Belichick is thinking at any given time. I don’t think it’s likely for the Pats to trade the draft capital necessary to move that far up but I don’t think past events tell us squat. Brady has to be replaced soon and Belichick knows this. We’ll see how he chooses to approach the situation soon enough.
 

pappymojo

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The team has persevered but to say there hasn’t been an impact seems a little ridiculous to me. The two biggest needs on the defensive side of the ball right now are DL that can get to the quarterback and a starting CB. The two very roles that Easley and Jones were drafted to do.

Missing on early round picks has long term effects not only on your drafting strategy but also your salary cap.
I don't think that Belichick would agree with the bolded. I believe that the Patriots highly value DL (including defensive ends) who can contain the run. Chandler Jones was traded and Chris Long signed elsewhere as, for each player, their best skill (getting to the QB) was less valued in New England than it is around the league.
 

RetractableRoof

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I don't think that Belichick would agree with the bolded. I believe that the Patriots highly value DL (including defensive ends) who can contain the run. Chandler Jones was traded and Chris Long signed elsewhere as, for each player, their best skill (getting to the QB) was less valued in New England than it is around the league.
Is that true, or is it that he doesn't value it at the price the rest of the league is willing to pay?
 

DJnVa

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To me, any time spent debating or contemplating moving into the very top of the first round is wasted breath. Belichick has never and will never be the guy to put all his eggs in one basket.
Well, how many times has he had the ammunition to do so? That's pertinent info.

And it all depends on who he wants--he could trade a #1, #2, and a #3 to move into middle of first, then use his other #1 to trade down and get multiple picks..

Saying that "BB never does that" is saying he's predictable. I don't think that's the case. I think *if* there's someone he wants, he'll try. I think it's more likely that's Chubb than a QB though.
 

Jimbodandy

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Is that true, or is it that he doesn't value it at the price the rest of the league is willing to pay?
Agreed. Also, they don't value guys who ONLY get to the QB. They value the guy who can get to the QB occasionally, but also set the edge, and sometimes drop into coverage if they want to gameplan that.

They need more QB pressure than they had last year, but they're not going to drop big money or big draft capital on a guy that only does that one thing. Drop the price a bit though, and we'll talk...
 

pappymojo

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Agreed. Also, they don't value guys who ONLY get to the QB. They value the guy who can get to the QB occasionally, but also set the edge, and sometimes drop into coverage if they want to gameplan that.

They need more QB pressure than they had last year, but they're not going to drop big money or big draft capital on a guy that only does that one thing. Drop the price a bit though, and we'll talk...
That was my point. I think that Belichick would agree that they need to do a better job of putting pressure on the opposing quarterback, but that can be accomplished in many ways.
 

Captaincoop

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I can only imagine what Tom Brady's thoughts would be if Belichick traded away his best outside receiver and several key draft picks to acquire a QB who is guaranteed to never help Tom Brady win a game with the Patriots.

Tom isn't the GM, so Belichick can do what he wants, but that seems like a real in-your-face move.

It seems more likely that the Pats are going to try and acquire a cornerstone tackle or an impact LB (or both) with those picks.
 

ehaz

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I can only imagine what Tom Brady's thoughts would be if Belichick traded away his best outside receiver and several key draft picks to acquire a QB who is guaranteed to never help Tom Brady win a game with the Patriots.

Tom isn't the GM, so Belichick can do what he wants, but that seems like a real in-your-face move.

It seems more likely that the Pats are going to try and acquire a cornerstone tackle or an impact LB (or both) with those picks.
Agreed. Something like Leighton Vander Esch + Mike McGlinchey would inject some serious young talent into this roster that can play right away.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah they aren't trading up into the top 5 to draft a QB (they aren't trading up into the top 5 period). But if a QB they like slides... they may pounce. Or they may go some combo of LB / DE / OT with the firsts and take a Lauletta at 43. Who knows. This is gonna be so much fun.
 

DJnVa

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Mayfield or Jackson in mid-first? Or do they see if one slides to 23?
 

E5 Yaz

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"...from what I understand, Tom Brady is not sad about this move."
I hope some year someone does a deep dive into the differences between receivers that make TB12 happy and those who make him sad.Maybe it's true of every quarterback to some degree, but it sure seems as though he has been quite particular over the years. I mean, do we hear about this type of thing with, say, Drew Brees?
 

Van Everyman

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"...from what I understand, Tom Brady is not sad about this move."
Yeah, about that:

“Brandin Cooks has been an incredible player for us since he got here — his attitude, his approach to the game for a young player, his maturity is really what struck me,’’ Brady said days before the Super Bowl. “He’s one of the last guys off the field every single day, always working on his techniques, his catching technique, tracking the ball. It’s just so impressive. What he’s done for our team in one year is really incredible.

“I haven’t seen it very much from anybody who’s come in and make the kinds of contributions he’s made. He does it in his own style, too. He’s not trying to mimic anybody. It’s just him. I love playing with the guy. I love his spirit. I love his attitude. I love his will and determination. I love his leadership. Very lucky to play with him. Hopefully we have many more years together.’’
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2018/04/03/patriots-trade-brandin-cooks-rams/lOQPDiM4pLfOIab2UviSgM/story.html
 

heavyde050

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I hope some year someone does a deep dive into the differences between receivers that make TB12 happy and those who make him sad.Maybe it's true of every quarterback to some degree, but it sure seems as though he has been quite particular over the years. I mean, do we hear about this type of thing with, say, Drew Brees?
I thought part of the reason Cooks was originally traded was for calling out Brees.
I could be wrong though.
 

DJnVa

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I think it's more like if one of them slide into the late teens they may think about trading up for one. They have too many holes to trade a bunch of picks to go into the top 10 or higher.
Yeah, that's where I'm going. We get to pick 15 and those guys are there. Do the Patriots jump or do they see if they continue to slide. Should be fascinating.

By the chart, #23 and #63 gets you to #15/#16.
 

Van Everyman

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One is when he was asked about Cooks when he was still a teammate and the day before the Super Bowl. The other is what a reporter has heard from sources after that player has left. The circumstances were different and both could be correct.
Anything's possible, I suppose. And I'm not trying to stir shit here. Players are asked to say a ton of crap during Media Day/Week, so maybe they just default to saying everybody is the "greatest teammate." Even still, I'm finding it hard to square:

"I love playing with the guy. I love his spirit. I love his attitude. I love his will and determination. I love his leadership. Very lucky to play with him. Hopefully we have many more years together"
With:

"Tom Brady is not sad about this move."
 

dcmissle

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I don’t think this is very complicated. Cooks is fine. Many people like him. Understanbly. He’ll probably thrive in LA. McVay was smart to get him over an unproven draftee and OBJ, who would have commanded a ransom in picks then a hefty contract.

Cooks was also the one piece the Pats could deal whose absence would not cripple the team and who would command a first round pick. Probably the only such piece. And the Pats need help, dearly, in several places immediately and longer term. And they don’t have an abundance of cap space.

So kudos for trading for him last year and trading him now. Well done. The latter was relatively easy decision.

Having done this, having extricated themselves from a fairly dicey position (by their lofty standards)it seems clear they will team build. This ammo isn’t going to be invested primarily in one guy, either in the draft or now on another roster.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I hope some year someone does a deep dive into the differences between receivers that make TB12 happy and those who make him sad.Maybe it's true of every quarterback to some degree, but it sure seems as though he has been quite particular over the years. I mean, do we hear about this type of thing with, say, Drew Brees?
I wish for that as well, but I’d be willing to bet the answer would involve the term ‘Erhardt-Perkins’.
 

j-man

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ne needs to keep all their picks they need a LT at 23 a QB AT 31 or 40 a te at 31 or 43 and LB Heip i have a throuht i love C Harris Jr my fav bronco but denver needs so much just as fans wouild u guys take pick 40 and CHJ for picks 23 31
 

pappymojo

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ne needs to keep all their picks they need a LT at 23 a QB AT 31 or 40 a te at 31 or 43 and LB Heip i have a throuht i love C Harris Jr my fav bronco but denver needs so much just as fans wouild u guys take pick 40 and CHJ for picks 23 31
No, his contract is too much money.

Last year, the Patriots made 4 picks total and the highest was in the third round.

To me, they need to draft young cheap players all over their roster. There is no spot on their roster that wouldn't benefit from an infusion of youth.
 

ehaz

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With those four picks they could easily pull off something like LVE + Jaire Alexander + Sony Michel + Lauletta.

That’s a ton of young talent.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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In isolation, I have no problem with this trade - Cooks was about to get paid like an elite WR, and I think he's merely a very good receiver.

My issue at this point is that the WR corps as a whole are a combination of old and injury question marks. They're really at a time when they need to start rebuilding that part of the team - and it looked like Cooks was going to be the centerpiece for that. Edelman is old and coming back from a serious injury that could negatively affect that which makes him who he is - his cutting ability. Mitchell is coming back from a major injury, and doesn't seem to be able to get through a season. Hogan is old enough that he's not a long term solution and isn't nearly as versatile as the other little white guys, and Britt is a career mediocrity. We're basically looking at two first round busts (Patterson and Dorsett) as the hope for the future.

There are just a ton of question marks and very few sure things.
 

tims4wins

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But they weren't going to pay Cooks $15M a year to be the centerpiece. So much can change in one year in the NFL. Maybe Riley McCarron becomes the next great slot man. Maybe they sign the next Dola next offseason. Maybe Mitchell becomes Givens 2.0. They have enough talent and hopefully depth at WR for 2018. I'll worry about 2019 and beyond next year. One year at a time with TB12 and Gronk.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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But they weren't going to pay Cooks $15M a year to be the centerpiece. So much can change in one year in the NFL. Maybe Riley McCarron becomes the next great slot man. Maybe they sign the next Dola next offseason. Maybe Mitchell becomes Givens 2.0. They have enough talent and hopefully depth at WR for 2018. I'll worry about 2019 and beyond next year. One year at a time with TB12 and Gronk.
Yup. And as long as TB12 is playing at a high level, Gronk is healthy, and the line is functional in 2018, the offense is going to be pretty elite even when mixing and matching different spare parts at WR. And if TB12 isn't playing at a high level, Gronk gets hurt, or the OL implodes, we're boned anyway.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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But they weren't going to pay Cooks $15M a year to be the centerpiece. So much can change in one year in the NFL. Maybe Riley McCarron becomes the next great slot man. Maybe they sign the next Dola next offseason. Maybe Mitchell becomes Givens 2.0. They have enough talent and hopefully depth at WR for 2018. I'll worry about 2019 and beyond next year. One year at a time with TB12 and Gronk.
Which is why I said I don't have a problem with the trade - I have a problem with what their current WR corps looks like.


And yeah, they'll be fine in 2018 - as long as all of the post-injury guys look like themselves. And some of the young guys take steps forward.They just look like a unit that doesn't have any real long term assets/prospects.
 

dcmissle

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Share the concern, but several factors probably mitigate the risk. First, I think this may bode well for the chances of Gronk coming back. Second and relatedly, I would not be surprised if they find great value for one of those high picks at TE, so maybe the offense tilts back a bit to what they had going with Gronk and AH. Or, maybe they score in the first two rounds at RB, and diversify a bit that way. (I am not counting on an immediate contribution at WR via the draft; the rookie transition League wide seems to be challenging, and with the Pats, particularly so. For every Branch, there seem to be 10 twigs.)

This Cooks trade and the JG trade — both of which, arguably, were forced — give them tremendous flexibility at the top of a fairly well regarded draft class. The Pats were smart and also fortunate to find trade partners who provided them with good value.
 

Super Nomario

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Which is why I said I don't have a problem with the trade - I have a problem with what their current WR corps looks like.


And yeah, they'll be fine in 2018 - as long as all of the post-injury guys look like themselves. And some of the young guys take steps forward.They just look like a unit that doesn't have any real long term assets/prospects.
I think they almost have to draft a WR this year. Per Over The Cap, the only WR under contract for 2019 are Edelman and Mitchell - both of whom missed all of 2017. I guess the real question is what kind of receiver? An outside guy to replace Cooks? A slot guy to replace Amendola and eventually Edelman? I wouldn't be surprised to see them double-dip at WR, either, especially if one of the guys provides return value.
 

pappymojo

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Malcolm Brown and Danny Shelton are both on the fourth year of their rookie contracts with a fifth year option available. So DT is a need.

Chung and D McCourty are both 30. So Safety is a need. QB, OT, DE, CB, RB, TE - is there a position in football that isn't a position of need?
 

Soxy

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I believe this is a trade that should work for everyone. Here is McVay’s take:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/04/05/sean-mcvay-no-limitations-on-how-to-use-brandin-cooks/
Huh. See, I would have agreed with this last year and even said as much on this board. But Cooks certainly didn't come across as the kind of guy who has "no limitations in how you can utilize him" in his one season with the Pats. And I think that's what separates him from other higher caliber receivers that are in a tier or two above Cooks (Brown, Beckham, Julio, etc.)

I think the reason the Pats weren't comfortable investing big money in Cooks (besides the fact that they don't invest big money in receivers not named Randy Moss) is that Cooks has some pretty obvious limitations. He's not great at fighting for the ball in traffic. He's not great after the catch. His hands are okay but not top level. He has some pretty exciting skills and is most definitely an asset to any team that has him, but he's not on the same level as other top flight receivers.

Cooks is a very strong complimentary piece but I don't see him as a building block. He's a luxury good. Which is fine when he's on a cheap deal but when you have to start paying full retail price... not so much.

I think McVay is either overestimating Cooks' ability or he's overestimating his own ability to find surplus value elsewhere.
 

Super Nomario

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Malcolm Brown and Danny Shelton are both on the fourth year of their rookie contracts with a fifth year option available. So DT is a need.
This is a great point - and we know Belichick will invest high picks in the interior DL. Seymour (his highest pick with NE), Warren, Wilfork, Easley, Brown. He may decide either or both of Brown / Shelton aren't likely to be worth their next contracts and grab a guy like Bryan or Payne or Vea.
 

Jerry’s Curl

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Huh. See, I would have agreed with this last year and even said as much on this board. But Cooks certainly didn't come across as the kind of guy who has "no limitations in how you can utilize him" in his one season with the Pats. And I think that's what separates him from other higher caliber receivers that are in a tier or two above Cooks (Brown, Beckham, Julio, etc.)

I think the reason the Pats weren't comfortable investing big money in Cooks (besides the fact that they don't invest big money in receivers not named Randy Moss) is that Cooks has some pretty obvious limitations. He's not great at fighting for the ball in traffic. He's not great after the catch. His hands are okay but not top level. He has some pretty exciting skills and is most definitely an asset to any team that has him, but he's not on the same level as other top flight receivers.

Cooks is a very strong complimentary piece but I don't see him as a building block. He's a luxury good. Which is fine when he's on a cheap deal but when you have to start paying full retail price... not so much.

I think McVay is either overestimating Cooks' ability or he's overestimating his own ability to find surplus value elsewhere.
I think both the Saints and Patriots felt the same way.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Nah ... he'll be onto hating the Patriots draft picks by then
The constant straw-manning really makes this forum a pain in the ass. Can't have a damn discussion without people making up a dozen arguments to stick in someone's mouth. Its tedious.