Completely legal substitution aka the "John Harbaugh is a whiny little brat" thread.
- Thread starter CaptainLaddie
- Start date
The Patriots ran some plays with only 4 offensive linemen. An eligible receiver (Hooman or Vereen) reported in as ineligible (the same way an extra OL or a Mike Vrabel sometimes reports in as eligible).CaptainLaddie said:
Some of the time, Vereen was the ineligible but split out as a WR, while an eligible Hooman lined up as if he was at tackle. At the snap, Hooman ran a seam route while the ineligible Vereen ran back into the backfield. (I think that Vereen, though ineligible, would have been allowed to catch a backward pass - it would have been called a rush - but had he run downfield he would have been flagged as an ineligible receiver downfield). Ravens were probably pissed that a guy lining up seemingly at tackle was allowed to go out for a pass. Or they didn't get that Vereen was ineligible even though ref was telling them with his mike on.
Id love to know what Jpsh McD was smoking when he thought that one up.
https://twitter.com/jeffzrebiecsun
Not sure that makes sense to me, or that anything 'stopped' after that, but FWIW from Ravens beat writer for Baltimore Sun
Here's another
https://twitter.com/bsmolka
Again, question is whether it's against the rules or not.
Eddie Jurak said:
It's bloody brilliant and if the NFL bans it during the offseason, it just proves how brilliant it is. I love that I get to root for a coaching staff that constantly looks to exploit every possible rule/lack of a rule/loophole.
I think he means them telling the refs what they intended to do with that play ahead of time, I think they did in that old Vinatieri-to-Brown play against the Rams.
They may change the rule about the amount of time that needs to be given to the defense before the snap after the eligibility change is announced.
I gave some thought to the idea of making it a rule that the officials have to announce it via the microphone, but I don't know how unwieldy that would be given how often the mic fails.
I gave some thought to the idea of making it a rule that the officials have to announce it via the microphone, but I don't know how unwieldy that would be given how often the mic fails.
kieckeredinthehead said:
Defense thinks from the alignment that Hooman is ineligible as a receiver, and so no one lines up to defend him initially, or when he goes out on a pattern.
kieckeredinthehead said:
Do you know how sometimes offensive linemen get confused about which pass rushers to block when the defense runs stunts and blitzes to get to the QB? This was the mirror image of that. The Ravens D had trouble identifying who was going out for a pass and who was staying in to block for Brady.
and to make it even worse the time that Vereen was ineligble he lined up wide and drifted into the backfield. They still needed to account for him as a threat because he could catch a lateral and run so they essentially had to cover an extra reciever.Harry Hooper said:
Ryan Hannable @RyanHannable 2m2 minutes ago
Harbaugh on Pats gimmick: "The league will look at that type of thing and I’m sure that they’ll make some adjustments and things like that."
Harbaugh on Pats gimmick: "The league will look at that type of thing and I’m sure that they’ll make some adjustments and things like that."
I think the rule implies that the defensive captain has to be given time to let the rest of the defense know otherwise what good does it do to let the captain know and then have the ball snapped a split-second later?
Ah. Good to know. I didn't hear it. All I saw was the official point to Vereen and inform the Baltimore defensive captain that he was ineligible.Stitch01 said:
Reporting as eligible/ineligible is all covered by the exact same rule, so I'm not sure why Harbaugh thinks it's illegal. It reflects poorly on his knowledge of the rules.
Linemen have to stay at the line of scrimmage on pass plays. The can't run down field. So, you don't cover linemen in pass coverage. When you put a guy who usually can catch balls out wide (like a running back) the defense puts a pass coverage back on him. But then that guy just stays at the line and counts as one of the required linemen. His defender doesn't know what to do, so he is just standing there. This means another eligible receiver can run down field from the line off scrimmage and there is one less back to cover him. The down side is that once they are hip to it, they get a big advantage. If a guy who is ineligible is split wide, he's effectively useless in the passing game, and you can ignore him so you are playing 10 against 11.kieckeredinthehead said:
That's all just my best guess.
Eddie Jurak said:
Baylor pulled off something similar in the Cotton Bowl this year, declaring a TE on the offensive right as ineligible while the 6'7" 390lb lineman they had lined up at the LT spot got a free release and walked into the end zone. Not sure how regularly this is done, but I don't ever remember seeing it before then and was surprised to see the Pats pulling it out tonight.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2316551-390-pound-baylor-guard-laquan-mcgowan-scores-big-man-td-vs-michigan-state
And that's why it was fucking awesome.Byrdbrain said:
I try to be even handed and fair, but anything that pisses off a fan base that roots for ray rice post fiasco is a good thing imho.
SteveF said:
This.
Because the rule states that when someone "switches" eligibility it must be announced. There's no separate rule for each. It's one rule. There's no allowance to additional time or subs. None.
But it's the Pats and people are idiots.
It's laughable that a coach who makes it a major page of his team's playbook to fish for PI is bitching about another team taking advantage of the rulebook. Fuck off and die. Stop deflecting the fact that your team did really well this year and simply lost.
Annoying entry ads here, but you can see Harbaugh's comments at the PC
http://www.csnbaltimore.com/blog/ravens-talk/baltimore-new-england-patriots-ineligible-receiver-eligible-play-john-harbaugh-controversial-clearly-deception
I'd say if what Pats did is legal (and if officials acted correctly before Harbaugh's penalty), there'll be a fine coming for the 'deception' comment. But who knows.
Easy to believe Pats thought they could get away with that for a number of plays and rolled it out at an important time. Just like the trick screen, they were clearly reaching DEEP in the second half.
Note that the Ravens analyst for CSN Baltimore was nothing but complimentary of the play and blamed the Ravens for not recognizing and adjusting.
Brady was pretty bold in the post-game about the issue. I have to think Pats checked with league office on it ahead of time for him to be so aggressive in his comments.
http://www.csnbaltimore.com/blog/ravens-talk/baltimore-new-england-patriots-ineligible-receiver-eligible-play-john-harbaugh-controversial-clearly-deception
I'd say if what Pats did is legal (and if officials acted correctly before Harbaugh's penalty), there'll be a fine coming for the 'deception' comment. But who knows.
Easy to believe Pats thought they could get away with that for a number of plays and rolled it out at an important time. Just like the trick screen, they were clearly reaching DEEP in the second half.
Note that the Ravens analyst for CSN Baltimore was nothing but complimentary of the play and blamed the Ravens for not recognizing and adjusting.
Brady was pretty bold in the post-game about the issue. I have to think Pats checked with league office on it ahead of time for him to be so aggressive in his comments.
I just posted this in the game thread but 3-4 times they announced it in the stadium. I don't recall on the one play the ravens are bitching about though. Everyone In our section was very confused, as it seems was the immortal Harbaugh and his clan of goons.SteveF said:
Boo fucking hoo. The Pats clearly got the best of the. And they had no idea what to do. Maybe instead of taking a penalty you take a timeout and try to figure out what the adults are doing John.
He's such a whiny bitch. Vereen was announced to the stadium as ineligible. What else do you want? Practicing against unbalanced lines happens all the time. This is no different.
Firstly, lol boo hoo.
Secondly, I don't believe anyone was covering Vereen on the line anyway. They just forgot to cover Hooman as well.
Secondly, I don't believe anyone was covering Vereen on the line anyway. They just forgot to cover Hooman as well.
To be fair to Harbaugh - he just got powned on national TV by an opposing coach, and his team, which played well, got bounced out of the playoffs. Of course he's butthurt.
I really, really, really can't work up any sympathy for him or his organization.
I really, really, really can't work up any sympathy for him or his organization.
Maybe they were confused about whether ref said "ineligible" or "an eligible". Although didn't the ref also say "don't cover him"?RedOctober3829 said:
They did. Later after a few times they stopped covering the ineligible guy because he wasn't fucking eligible. Go figure.RedOctober3829 said:
Harbaugh keeps saying substitution, but that had nothing to do with it. Vereen was on the field the previous play. No new player came on, and ref announced eligibility. That's all there is to it. League should tell him to shut it.
He also said the refs "put a stop to it" and I'm not sure they did. Because, of course, there's no reason to.
He also said the refs "put a stop to it" and I'm not sure they did. Because, of course, there's no reason to.
mwonow said:
Yeah, but by bitching about it in a sense he almost made himself look worse. Called attn to how he was out-smarted and that he was a bitch about it.
(and I say that as someone who respects Harbaugh and thinks he coached a helluva game)
Tony C said:
Agreed. And it's going to hurt when NFL comes out and says it was legal, which I suspect is likely. Of course if reverse happens he looks vindicated, so we'll see
They don't need to, because it's not illegal. You just need 5 people on the line deemed ineligible. Vereen was the 5th.DrewDawg said:
Why you'd need to substitute to match the formation is mind boggling.