Colts Next Banner: We Almost Had McDaniels

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I think Kraft and McDaniels are joined at the hip barring something from left field.

From Kraft's standpoint, he could not realistically have a better successor to BB. There is a huge disincentive to taking this job one or two years from now. You never want to be the guy who follows THE GUY. Brady probably is gone by then. McDaniels understands the market. He lived the culture. He's a talented offensive mind, and the Pats will dearly need help in developing a QB,

From Josh's standpoint, I think he practically burned 31 bridges. I disagree with Schefter because of the way HC hiring works, and specifically the calendar. Owners are impatient. They are not going to wait until after the SB to make a hire for a myriad of reasons. So you have to ask yourself, what are the chances that the NEP in the next few years will make deep post-season runs? Pretty damn good, I'd say. And there is the problem -- as a practical matter, there is NFW any other owner will walk down the aisle with Josh after this Indy business. Not under current rules where binding commitments are forbidden. He did it once, he could do it again, and if he does I'm the biggest fucking fool in the Western Hemisphere -- that will be the mindset.
This all scans—and there are lots of parallels with the U.S. presidency in that you really can’t be considered great if you are extending your oredecessor’s program; even the president in such circumstances is looked at by history as a kind of caretaker.

But...

What if he IS the messiah?
 

DrewDawg

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Underrated piece of this all IMO: Josh and Schlupinski will be around to groom whatever QB they draft in 2018 or 2019. That QB may or may not end up being The Guy, but I'd rather have those guys grooming him than someone else trying to take over as OC / QB coach and doing the same.
Yeah, whether things were promised to McDaniels or not it seems pretty clear there's a lot of internal thought to what comes next. So, that said, I think there's little doubt they draft a QB this year.
 

joe dokes

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I would say that the job McDaniels seems to really want - the post-Belichick/post-Brady NE gig - will be an even more challenging situation than the current Colts job.
Except maybe for that part where his family wont be miserable that they had to move after so many years in one place.
 

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Underrated piece of this all IMO: Josh and Schlupinski will be around to groom whatever QB they draft in 2018 or 2019. That QB may or may not end up being The Guy, but I'd rather have those guys grooming him than someone else trying to take over as OC / QB coach and doing the same.
Agreed. And there's the opportunity for McDaniels (/ Schlupinski) to get involved in the draft decision so the heir is someone they personally believe in. It's a more coherent plan than Belichick retiring a couple years from now and new HC X stuck having to either a) figure out the QB succession plan at that time or b) having to ride with whatever QB BB drafted, whether or not he believes in him.
 

tims4wins

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Agreed. And there's the opportunity for McDaniels (/ Schlupinski) to get involved in the draft decision so the heir is someone they personally believe in. It's a more coherent plan than Belichick retiring a couple years from now and new HC X stuck having to either a) figure out the QB succession plan at that time or b) having to ride with whatever QB BB drafted, whether or not he believes in him.
Kind of makes me wonder if those two will be given a "special assignment" to scout the QB class and make a recommendation
 

Super Nomario

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Kind of makes me wonder if those two will be given a "special assignment" to scout the QB class and make a recommendation
I'd be shocked if they didn't. I think that's pretty typical (both around the league and for the Pats specifically). Remember, QB coach Dick Rehbein was one of the key figures in making the call for Brady over some of the other options.
 

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Is this akin to buying a house and having the seller's agent also working as the buyer's agent?
And in that situation, imagine the buyer overselling to his agent his interest in that house. And the agent brings that to the seller, who looks the agent square in the eye and asks, "is this guy reliable?", and the agent says yes. So the seller takes down the for sale sign, and several other buyers buy other houses in the neighborhood, then this buyer balks.

The seller says to the agent, "you vouched for this guy, what's up? " The agent then tells the buyer, "you made me look ridiculous, you compromised my reliability, which is my most important asset, good-bye."
 

uilnslcoap

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SHOT - JOSH
He turns back toward Jim Irsay and Chris Ballard as they come toward him

CLOSEUP - JOSH looking at them.

ALL SOUND STOPS, except for Robert Kraft's voice in the distance shouting "JOSH JOSH JOSH."

JOSH'S POV - CHRIS BALLARD
Frozen frame

JOSH'S POV - PATRICK ROBINSON
Frozen frame, Eagles defender freezing up in the face of the New England offense

JOSH'S POV - RASHARD ROBINSON
Frozen frame, the drug-laced candy got to him

SHOT - JOSH
His face turning quickly to look up at Kraft.

JOSH'S POV - KRAFT
Frozen frame. His face twisted with passion, his body spread-eagled against the glass.

CLOSEUP - JOSH looking up at Kraft.

JOSH (screaming) Bob!
This is very funny.
 

BaseballJones

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To me there's no doubt this looks bad for Josh around the league. I can see why the agent splits.

But... I'm glad he's staying in NE.
 

dcmissle

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Give me a break with the agent taking the high road. Where do you think false coaching rumors come from? The agents.
Look, there is generalized anger on the part of the Colts that cannot be directed to Josh or Kraft with any consequence. So it's directed to the agent, with the implicit if not explicit command and threat, do something about it. So he fires Josh because Josh is the less important of the two relationships.
 

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Is this akin to buying a house and having the seller's agent also working as the buyer's agent?
Give me a break with the agent taking the high road. Where do you think false coaching rumors come from? The agents.
And in that situation, imagine the buyer overselling to his agent his interest in that house. And the agent brings that to the seller, who looks the agent square in the eye and asks, "is this guy reliable?", and the agent says yes. So the seller takes down the for sale sign, and several other buyers buy other houses in the neighborhood, then this buyer balks.

The seller says to the agent, "you vouched for this guy, what's up? " The agent then tells the buyer, "you made me look ridiculous, you compromised my reliability, which is my most important asset, good-bye."
“We’re on to the principal-agent problem.”
 

pappymojo

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And in that situation, imagine the buyer overselling to his agent his interest in that house. And the agent brings that to the seller, who looks the agent square in the eye and asks, "is this guy reliable?", and the agent says yes. So the seller takes down the for sale sign, and several other buyers buy other houses in the neighborhood, then this buyer balks.

The seller says to the agent, "you vouched for this guy, what's up? " The agent then tells the buyer, "you made me look ridiculous, you compromised my reliability, which is my most important asset, good-bye."
But that's an assumption.

Isn't just as likely that McDaniels was upfront with his reservations to his agent, but that the agent downplayed those concerns?
 

dcmissle

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“We’re on to the principal-agent problem.”
The finding-the-next-QB problem and Josh's involvement in that is the most fascinating one to me. All his skin is in that game.

And while I thought literally nothing could be ruled out in this upcoming draft if "the guy" is in this draft, I no longer think so. This defense is too fucked to allow for it.
 

Grimace-HS

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Underrated piece of this all IMO: Josh and Schlupinski will be around to groom whatever QB they draft in 2018 or 2019. That QB may or may not end up being The Guy, but I'd rather have those guys grooming him than someone else trying to take over as OC / QB coach and doing the same.
This is really a very huge component. Up until last night's reveal that Josh would be staying, there had never been much hint at what a succession plan would resemble, or when it would take place. As DC mentioned, the "The Two Bills" part with Parcells mentoring Belichick on the other issues within the team and organization could very well suggest that Josh is very much in line to be next. And if he is turning down the Colts now, then I would expect that transition to occur within 1-2 years (in line with when Brady may decide enough is enough). I wonder what BB and Brady would have actually done if they pulled it out and won this year.

I am sure that no one really expects the next phase of the Patriots to replicate what we have seen in the past 18 years, but there are now three potential linkages that at least allow for what this vision could be:

(1) Head Coach - If Josh takes over as head coach when the time is right, then he will be fully mentored and also has extensive experience with the team in both the early and later periods of this run. This team oscillated from defensive oriented to offensive, and was largely successful in both eras. Sandwiched in between was exposure to two other organizations (Denver and STL).
(2) QB - Josh's experience with Brady is clear. He has done a great job with the backup QBs and hopefully learned where some misses occurred (especially in Denver). But the idea of being able to have at least one (2018) and possibly two (2019) chances to draft and groom a successor has to be enticing. Maintaining the tie to Caserio is also huge with this part.
(3) Ownership / Organization - The culture of the Patriots runs from Kraft to BB, and then filters downward. Josh has been part of this culture for a long time and maintaining this continuity now looks more possible than before. Also, based on the interviews I have heard over the years, I like the competitive spirit of Jonathan and would hope that he would also do as much as possible to maintain this organizational "do your job" mantra (assuming that he takes over when Robert ultimately decides to step down or reduce his role).

Even if Josh is not the successor, him staying and the BB/Kraft/Josh meeting reports are far more encouraging that the next few years will not solely be designed to "go for it now" (not that they necessarily were, but that could have been the result). A few more years of BB/Brady with this succession plan is an exciting vision post SB LII. And at least now the ESPN article can be more confidently debunked.

Edit: spelling
 
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Marciano490

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The finding-the-next-QB problem and Josh's involvement in that is the most fascinating one to me. All his skin is in that game.

And while I thought literally nothing could be ruled out in this upcoming draft if "the guy" is in this draft, I no longer think so. This defense is too fucked to allow for it.
So, let's try to forget that time Josh drafted Tebow in the first round...
 

tims4wins

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(2) QB - Josh's experience with Brady is clear. He has done a great job with the backup QBs and hopefully learned where some misses occurred (especially in Denver). But the idea of being able to have at least one (2018) and possibly two (2019) chances to draft and groom a successor has to be enticing. Maintaining the tie to Caserio is also huge with this part
Good post. Wanted to single out this part. I wasn't really thinking along these lines, but in reality, the Pats not only have to find the next starting QB, they have to find the next backup. So selecting a QB in both 2018 and 2019 makes a TON of sense. Gives you multiple cracks at finding the right guy too. Or they could even draft multiple QBs in one draft, like Washington with RG3 and Cousins
 

dcmissle

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But that's an assumption.

Isn't just as likely that McDaniels was upfront with his reservations to his agent, but that the agent downplayed those concerns?
That would be as foolish as Malcolm Butler lying in that press release yesterday. Possible but unlikely. If he lies to Ballard, he is potentially cutting off a landing spot for all his player clients. Ballard could get the word out -- don't come to me with this guy.
 

Super Nomario

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Sam Bradford, but he went number 1. Oh well, it's not like Josh traded a bunch of picks to move up to get Tebow...
Yeah, Bradford was #1, and either Tebow or McCoy #2. Bradford and McCoy are the only QBs from that draft still in the NFL.

I think that's a good reminder that just because a team needs a QB, doesn't mean one is available. If the Pats like someone available with one of their picks, even a first or second, they should take him, because there's no guarantee one is going to be available when they do need one. (There's also no reason to force it if they don't love any of this year's QBs)
 

Marciano490

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Yeah, Bradford was #1, and either Tebow or McCoy #2. Bradford and McCoy are the only QBs from that draft still in the NFL.

I think that's a good reminder that just because a team needs a QB, doesn't mean one is available. If the Pats like someone available with one of their picks, even a first or second, they should take him, because there's no guarantee one is going to be available when they do need one. (There's also no reason to force it if they don't love any of this year's QBs)
Well, it's an odd tension for the next year or so because we have what we would expect is a limited window remaining for Brady's prime and a ton of holes on defense, so there must be a temptation to use early picks on that side of the ball unless they feel like there's a real difference maker at the QB spot they have a legit shot at drafting, but there's obviously no succession plan in place when Brady's gone with JG and Brissett gone, so that hole needs to be filled and filled well in the next draft or two as well.
 

pappymojo

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That would be as foolish as Malcolm Butler lying in that press release yesterday. Possible but unlikely. If he lies to Ballard, he is potentially cutting off a landing spot for all his player clients. Ballard could get the word out -- don't come to me with this guy.
Kind of the nature of the beast though, right? LaMonte is Ballard's agent. LaMonte is McDaniels' agent. There is a negotiation between Ballard and McDaniels with LaMonte acting as the agent of behalf of both but LaMonte works closely with Ballard on the deal because McDaniels is focused on the Patriots and the Super Bowl run.

When there are reports that McDaniels agreed to the deal, isn't it possible that LaMonte agreed to the deal on behalf of his client but that his client had a change of heart once he had a moment to discuss it with his family and current employer?
 

InstaFace

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This all scans—and there are lots of parallels with the U.S. presidency in that you really can’t be considered great if you are extending your oredecessor’s program; even the president in such circumstances is looked at by history as a kind of caretaker.

But...

What if he IS the messiah?
He's not the messiah, he's a very bad boy!
 

dcmissle

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My guess now — Colts knew about the reservations, issued the press release to pressure Josh, and it did not work. Agent now with a pissed off client, throws Josh under the bus to preserve relationship with Ballard, which is the more important relationship.

Which is not to say Josh is blameless. His would be assistants were left in the lurch.

The system sucks.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Yeah, Bradford was #1, and either Tebow or McCoy #2. Bradford and McCoy are the only QBs from that draft still in the NFL.

I think that's a good reminder that just because a team needs a QB, doesn't mean one is available. If the Pats like someone available with one of their picks, even a first or second, they should take him, because there's no guarantee one is going to be available when they do need one. (There's also no reason to force it if they don't love any of this year's QBs)
I'm not sure what's more surprising, that Colt McCoy was one of the best QB's in the draft, the fact that he's still in the league or he's made $9 million dollars when most people don't even know he's in the league to throw 7 passes in the last 3 years. Nice life.
 

pappymojo

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I'm not sure what's more surprising, that Colt McCoy was one of the best QB's in the draft, the fact that he's still in the league or he's made $9 million dollars when most people don't even know he's in the league to throw 7 passes in the last 3 years. Nice life.
Redskins signed McCoy to a 3 year/$9 million contract. Meanwhile Brian Hoyer is working on a 3 year/$4,441,470 contract.
 

Super Nomario

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Well, it's an odd tension for the next year or so because we have what we would expect is a limited window remaining for Brady's prime and a ton of holes on defense, so there must be a temptation to use early picks on that side of the ball unless they feel like there's a real difference maker at the QB spot they have a legit shot at drafting, but there's obviously no succession plan in place when Brady's gone with JG and Brissett gone, so that hole needs to be filled and filled well in the next draft or two as well.
I don't believe in using the draft to fill short-term holes; there's so much uncertainty, and even a lot of successful picks don't play well as rookies. So I think they should be drafting looking ahead to the needs of the 2019 and 2020 teams (which includes positions like LB where they're weak immediately and positions like S and QB where they're strong now but might not be in a couple years) and address the immediate needs with the FA market and trades. Hopefully some of the mid-level moves work out better than they did last offseason.
 

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Excuse me. Are you the Judean People's Front?
Nah... People's Front of Judea.

Back to business, I'm not really convinced McDaniels has burned a bridge with 31 teams. The Colts, yeah sure.

But if McDaniels coaches brilliantly and for whatever reason doesn't get/take the New England gig -- or does head coach the Pats for a few years and succeeds at that -- I'm sure owners who want to win will long forget what it was that finally pushed Irsay over the edge in 2018.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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My guess now — Colts knew about the reservations, issued the press release to pressure Josh, and it did not work. Agent now with a pissed off client, throws Josh under the bus to preserve relationship with Ballard, which is the more important relationship.

Which is not to say Josh is blameless. His would be assistants were left in the lurch.

The system sucks.
I’m not getting the ‘more important’ part of the relationship with Ballard. Lamonte doesn’t represent any players, so I guess you’re suggesting he did it to preserve his reputation with other GMs and owners for his other coaching clients? I’m still not sure that adds up, but I could be wrong. I generally think that the NFL coaching market is so current and ‘what’s hot right now’ that an owner isn’t going to give much of a shit who his agent is. The process is so rote at this point - ‘who made the playoffs and can we get one of their coordinators to come do it here’ - and it’s always been a copycat league. I dunno, I’m not buying that JMD burned 31 bridges either, so I think we just see it differently. My intuition leads me to thinking that they just had a personal dispute over it, whether that be the agent losing commissions on him and possibly assistants or some kind of ethical dispute about how it went down. What I do know is he probably cut his nose off to spite his face. I’m not sure coaches are going to want to feel tied to verbal discussions and rumors. Obviously we are all speculating on the details and will probably never know, but I think he’s catching way too much heat over backing out.
 

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I’m not getting the ‘more important’ part of the relationship with Ballard. Lamonte doesn’t represent any players, so I guess you’re suggesting he did it to preserve his reputation with other GMs and owners for his other coaching clients? I’m still not sure that adds up, but I could be wrong. I generally think that the NFL coaching market is so current and ‘what’s hot right now’ that an owner isn’t going to give much of a shit who his agent is. The process is so rote at this point - ‘who made the playoffs and can we get one of their coordinators to come do it here’ - and it’s always been a copycat league. I dunno, I’m not buying that JMD burned 31 bridges either, so I think we just see it differently. My intuition leads me to thinking that they just had a personal dispute over it, whether that be the agent losing commissions on him and possibly assistants or some kind of ethical dispute about how it went down. What I do know is he probably cut his nose off to spite his face. I’m not sure coaches are going to want to feel tied to verbal discussions and rumors. Obviously we are all speculating on the details and will probably never know, but I think he’s catching way too much heat over backing out.
C'mon, it's obvious that people want another reason to hate the Patriots and anyone associated with them. Especially the Colts and their fans.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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C'mon, it's obvious that people want another reason to hate the Patriots and anyone associated with them. Especially the Colts and their fans.
No, I get that part. But I pretty much discount mass media to that extent as it is. I’m just kind of surprised at the local fervor, including here. I can see K&C or F&M stirring the pot, I’m just kind of surprised others in the area or even on this board are giving him so much shit.
 

lexrageorge

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No, I get that part. But I pretty much discount mass media to that extent as it is. I’m just kind of surprised at the local fervor, including here. I can see K&C or F&M stirring the pot, I’m just kind of surprised others in the area or even on this board are giving him so much shit.
I don't see people giving McDaniels a lot of shit.

I've seen some people (myself included) bring up the assistants that accepted jobs with the Colts under the guise of working for Josh. Which is very fair; McDaniels put himself and the assistants in that position, and that's on him.

Others have speculated about burning bridges, which is a fair point to discuss.

Most posters seem happy he's coming back. What would the Game Goat threads look like after a 38-35 loss without at least one mention of McDaniels?
 
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dcmissle

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Honestly, I think everyone is thrilled he is back, myself included. I figured they'd figure out the vacancies, but there is one less at a crucial spot and there's also an apparent path forward after BB/TB, which is comforting.

It also occurs to me that any FAs they may be courting, this stuff will be important to, or should be.

The love/hate with him is hilarious -- this thread contrasted to the game threads.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I don't see people giving McDaniels a lot of shit.

I've seen some people (myself included) bring up the assistants that accepted jobs with the Colts under the guise of working for Josh. Which is very fair; McDaniels put himself and the assistants in that position, and that's on him.

Others have speculated about burning bridges, which is a fair point to discuss.

Most posters seem happy he's coming back. What would the Game Goat threads look like after a loss without at least one mention of McDaniels?
I’m not sure that is fair actually. We literally know nothing about how it all went down. It’s not exactly out of the realm that McDaniels listed who he would want and Ballard misled them as to how secure it was that he was locked up in an effort to secure them coming. Conversely McDaniels may have called them personally. Regardless, is anyone unemployed now? They’re either staying put or still going and getting a promotion.

If you take a job offer based on who might* be your new boss, with no assurances - and we have no reason to think he gave any, since even a week or so ago there were reports he was meeting with them again - and it falls out, that’s on you, not the guy that chose himself. He doesn’t owe those coaches jack shit, imo.
 

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I’m not getting the ‘more important’ part of the relationship with Ballard. Lamonte doesn’t represent any players, so I guess you’re suggesting he did it to preserve his reputation with other GMs and owners for his other coaching clients? I’m still not sure that adds up, but I could be wrong. I generally think that the NFL coaching market is so current and ‘what’s hot right now’ that an owner isn’t going to give much of a shit who his agent is. The process is so rote at this point - ‘who made the playoffs and can we get one of their coordinators to come do it here’ - and it’s always been a copycat league. I dunno, I’m not buying that JMD burned 31 bridges either, so I think we just see it differently. My intuition leads me to thinking that they just had a personal dispute over it, whether that be the agent losing commissions on him and possibly assistants or some kind of ethical dispute about how it went down. What I do know is he probably cut his nose off to spite his face. I’m not sure coaches are going to want to feel tied to verbal discussions and rumors. Obviously we are all speculating on the details and will probably never know, but I think he’s catching way too much heat over backing out.
If Lamonte doesn't represent any players, then I think it's fair to speculate that he believes he had to drop McDaniels to retain viability with other clients. (Whether McDaniels did anything wrong or not, Lamonte is in a bad place here.)

Of course, he could have avoided all that by not representing clients on both sides of the transaction, but apparently that's too difficult for agents these days.

Edit: fucking autocorrect.
 

Super Nomario

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Honestly, I think everyone is thrilled he is back, myself included. I figured they'd figure out the vacancies, but there is one less at a crucial spot and there's also an apparent path forward after BB/TB, which is comforting.
Not just one less, but three less, as it was rumored Judge and Schuplinski were going with him and now presumably they're staying. Though I guess it might mean someone like Chad O'Shea goes elsewhere.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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If Lamonte doesn't represent any players, then I think it's fair to speculate that he believes he had to drop McDaniels to retain viability with other clients. (Whether McDaniels did anything wrong or not, Lamonte is in a bad place here.)

Of course, he could have avoided all that by not representing clients on both sides of the transaction, but apparently that's too difficult for agents these days.

Edit: fucking autocorrect.
According to his agency website, his entire player roster consists of Chris Carpenter and Dave Steib.

http://www.psr-inc.net/clients.html

To your point, you’ll notice he has a stable of front office guys and coaches, or even execs like Casserio. Which obviously seems a huge conflict of interests, but also I don’t know the norm and I could see how it makes things easier. I understand that we have no way of knowing, but simplest explanation to me is he fucked up by committing his client before he gave the thumbs up and a rift occurred between him and McDaniels. Who’s fault that was we will never know, I just think it’s equally bad form for him to dump McDaniels. I get he wanted to get out in front of it, but that doesn’t bode well for him with his marketable clients either. Unless one believes this was a complete double middle fingers by jmd, I don’t see how it bodes well for Lamonte going forward and I sincerely hope he doesn’t see a dime of whatever raise he got. I just think people are putting way too much weight into the ‘burned bridges’ basket on jmd, but that could easily just be me and I see the other side. There’s a dynamic involved, but as an agent in the realm of an oligopoly, I’d align myself with the product, not the buyer. Someone is going to come knocking at some point. The proposition he will only ever get a chance in NE now - because of this - makes me chuckle.