Coaching Youngsters in Today's NHL

[RIFan]

Fluto article in the Globe today nails how I feel about the whole situation.

 
On Tuesday, Dougie Hamilton signed a six-year, $34.5 million extension with Calgary, his new team. Hamilton’s contract was not much richer than the Bruins’ initial offer, which was met with a shrug.
During a conference call, Hamilton declined to answer questions about why things went off the rails in Boston, but his actions indicate he wanted out. Of all the possible reasons, none is more likely than a 22-year-old player who grew weary of the heavy hand with which Claude Julien delivered his message.



Still, Julien’s teachings helped make Hamilton very rich.
Like all good coaches, Julien treated young players differently than he did veterans. It’s neither realistic nor prudent for a coach to issue corrections to Zdeno Chara and Hamilton in the same way. Coaches aren’t as strict with veterans because they acknowledge their mistakes and respond in a professional way. Coaches can’t be so sure with players on their entry-level contracts.
Teenagers and 20-somethings require firmness early. If they don’t learn to play with structure, they will float through their careers with bad habits tailing them until their deficiencies overshadow their skill set (see Phil Kessel, also not a Julien fan).

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/30/bruins-hurt-themselves-with-hasty-trade-dougie-hamilton/hEYpSm2zaoBZTvpOnFaE9H/story.html 

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

See, I disagree with this:
 

 
Teenagers and 20-somethings require firmness early. If they don’t learn to play with structure, they will float through their careers with bad habits tailing them until their deficiencies overshadow their skill set (see Phil Kessel, also not a Julien fan).

 
No, not all young players will do that if not dealt with firmly. Kessel did, but Kessel's also had problems in Toronto and is apparently an incorrigible, talented asshole. Taking the Kessel situation and extrapolating it to all young players doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Young players are not some monolithic group; each guy is different and it's up to the organization to best handle each one.

 

[TFP]

Good article from DJ Bean on it as well. I think this about sums up my feelings overall. He's been pretty spot on this entire process (he's a good twitter follow if you don't mind the volume). My favorite tweet of his was after the Rinaldo trade (paraphrasing): "The media generally knows more about FO thinking than they let on. That said, I legitimately have no idea what the Bruins are doing."
 
Link

 

[twibnotes]

Isn't it Clode's job to issue the strict feedback, coach the hell out of a young player but ALSO take the kid aside and explain he's doing it for his own good, etc etc. I don't see how you can give Clode a free pass here if his methods helped send Hamilton packing. It's his job to coach the kid up AND keep him in town. Otherwise he's just developing prospects for other teams.

 

[RIFan]

Dougie is part of the "every kid gets a trophy" generation.  I think part of what they need to do is do a better job of assessing the kids and understanding if they are coachable and will mature quickly enough to thrive in the environment.  We were all thrilled that Dougie fell to #9, but maybe some teams made the assessment that he was immature or would need to be coddled and didn't want the risk.   The NHL isn't a place where there are a lot of "players" coaches.   Maybe some John Madden type will have success making balloon animals as a motivational tool, but it would take a make shift in hockey culture for a coaching to shift away from the drill sargent mentality.  It's a strong likelihood that if Dougie had a problem with Claude riding him, he would have had a problem with almost every other NHL coach.

 

[TFP]

This is all an interesting debate here, actually. I think it gets to the heart of the philosophy of coaching, and I'll split this out into a new thread I think.
 

Dougie is part of the "every kid gets a trophy" generation. 

 
Claude is also part of the "I'm the coach I don't need to explain myself to these damn kids" generation. So as usual, I'm sure the truth falls somewhere in the middle. As a counterpoint to Dougie, you can look at a kid like Spooner who has seen plenty of adversity and tough feedback throughout his tenure and is still applying it and grinding away in the Bruins org, which is a credit to Claude and the organization as well. Could have easily turned sour like some of these other situations and it didn't, so everyone is different.
 
I imagine Claude is similar to Quenneville, who is clearly the best coach in the NHL right now, and a top 5 all time in my opinion. Q is very tough, demanding, but fair and his players will run through a wall for him. There's also the new generation like Jon Cooper who isn't the player's best friend, but everyone said he is more interested in his players as people than any other coach they've seen and those guys play great for him too. There's no one answer and one style, and I'm sure Claude is adjusting and trying new things as well.
 
I wonder how much the room plays into it as well. I'm sure Chara is tough to identify with as a player, he's a freak of nature who works harder than any human, that's a tough standard to live up to. It's a fascinating set of dynamics that I'm sure doesn't have one clear cause or explanation.

 

[PedroSpecialK]

My feeling is that it isn't so much that Claude has a strict philosophy, but that the Bruins as an organization have adopted a coach's mentality towards young players more so than any other franchise.
 
IMO it isn't so much that they dislike young players - rather, that they value (and arguably overvalue) strong leadership and character qualities in young players. Their trades of Seguin/Kessel/Hamilton are influenced by this, but more obviously you can look at their UDFA signings of K. Miller, Vatrano, Lindblad, Czarnik, Cave, Acciari, Hickman, etc. They also go out of their way to acquire and retain character AHL guys like Tommy Cross and Colin Stuart as well.
 
Then you look at the Rinaldo trade and I have no idea.

 

[j44thor]

I think as someone alluded to in the Dougie thread that this is more about style of play than it is about youth.
Sure Spooner is still grinding in the organization but unless he becomes dramatically better defensively he won't be with the team long-term and the same can be said for Pasta.  These guys are here because they are currently cheap, once they get expensive they will need to be defensively sound.
 
This Organization is still built on the idea that being strong in your own end is job #1 even if it comes at a detriment in the offensive end.
They favor players that will block shots, hit and take a hit to move the puck over guys that instead focus on getting the puck up ice into the offensive zone.  This is rather blatant with how much ice time Campbell and Seids got over much more efficient players.  
 
A young player never misses a shift for whiffing on an empty net or screwing up a play in the offensive end but if he screws up defensively Claude is likely to sit him for a shift or two or even game(s)
 
I'm not suggesting we go the route of Dallas and turn this into glorified street hockey but I think they should start to realize that the less time you spend blocking shots and delivering hits means the more time you spend with the puck. It is a lot harder to get scored on when you have the puck then when you are delivering hits and blocking shots.

 

[RIFan]

My feeling is that it isn't so much that Claude has a strict philosophy, but that the Bruins as an organization have adopted a coach's mentality towards young players more so than any other franchise.
 
IMO it isn't so much that they dislike young players - rather, that they value (and arguably overvalue) strong leadership and character qualities in young players. Their trades of Seguin/Kessel/Hamilton are influenced by this, but more obviously you can look at their UDFA signings of K. Miller, Vatrano, Lindblad, Czarnik, Cave, Acciari, Hickman, etc. They also go out of their way to acquire and retain character AHL guys like Tommy Cross and Colin Stuart as well.
 
Then you look at the Rinaldo trade and I have no idea.

All of those guys were captains on their amateur teams.  I think that was noted when they signed Czarnik and Cave.   It's probably no coincidence that Kuraly is going to be a captain this year with Miami. 

 

[Myt1]

I think as someone alluded to in the Dougie thread that this is more about style of play than it is about youth.
Sure Spooner is still grinding in the organization but unless he becomes dramatically better defensively he won't be with the team long-term and the same can be said for Pasta.  These guys are here because they are currently cheap, once they get expensive they will need to be defensively sound.
 
This Organization is still built on the idea that being strong in your own end is job #1 even if it comes at a detriment in the offensive end.
They favor players that will block shots, hit and take a hit to move the puck over guys that instead focus on getting the puck up ice into the offensive zone.  This is rather blatant with how much ice time Campbell and Seids got over much more efficient players.  
 
A young player never misses a shift for whiffing on an empty net or screwing up a play in the offensive end but if he screws up defensively Claude is likely to sit him for a shift or two or even game(s)
 
I'm not suggesting we go the route of Dallas and turn this into glorified street hockey but I think they should start to realize that the less time you spend blocking shots and delivering hits means the more time you spend with the puck. It is a lot harder to get scored on when you have the puck then when you are delivering hits and blocking shots.

What detriment? Since Claude's been the coach here's where the Bruins have ended up in goals per game:

2007-2008: 24th
2008-2009: 2nd
2009-2010: 30th
2010-2011: 5th
2011-2012: 2nd
2012-2013: 13th
2013-2014: 3rd
2014-2015: 22nd

Which puts them at 14th on average. Top half of the league.

I can't find the possession stats right now, but I'm pretty sure that the Bruins have been one of the better possession teams since Claude has been the coach, too.

 

[RIFan]

I was in favor of bringing Claude back, but I did want to see some turnover in the Asst Coaching ranks.  I think in today's environment it's probably necessary to have someone on the staff that can be the good cop to the HC's bad cop.   

 

[Myt1]

Basically, I don't understand why everything that happens every year is evidence of something that has been shown not to actually exist every single time we have this conversation on the board.

 

[Red Right Ankle]

Basically, I don't understand why everything that happens every year is evidence of something that has been shown not to actually exist every single time we have this conversation on the board.

Also young people are lazy, good for nothngs who all want a trophy and they all need to go off to war like we did.  Killing a German will make a man out of you!

 

[allstonite]

Also young people are lazy, good for nothngs who all want a trophy and they all need to go off to war like we did.  Killing a German will make a man out of you!

 
Good point. If Dougie killed Seidenberg it would deplete the Bruins depth on D and they'd be more likely to keep him around. 

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

I can't find the possession stats right now, but I'm pretty sure that the Bruins have been one of the better possession teams since Claude has been the coach, too.

 
That's what I thought, too. Cshea can probably confirm our thoughts on that, which probably puts this idea to rest:

I'm not suggesting we go the route of Dallas and turn this into glorified street hockey but I think they should start to realize that the less time you spend blocking shots and delivering hits means the more time you spend with the puck. It is a lot harder to get scored on when you have the puck then when you are delivering hits and blocking shots.

 
and brings me to this:

All of those guys were captains on their amateur teams.  I think that was noted when they signed Czarnik and Cave.   It's probably no coincidence that Kuraly is going to be a captain this year with Miami. 

That's closer to it in my mind. I honestly think they hold every skater to a standard for their position. For forwards, it's Bergeron. He's a perennial Selke nominee, wins faceoffs, plays all 200 feet, but still chips in 50-60 points a season. For defensemen, unfair as it is, I think the comparison is to Chara*, a guy that came in with a reputation of a booming shot on the PP, but also rock solid in his own zone and willing to pay the price down low to make things easier for their goalies. The idea with those two is that it's okay to have offense, but you have to also be able to do what they do. Kessel never will be Bergeron in any way, shape or form, and it's not likely Seguin would have been either. While Hamilton had the size to be similar to Chara, he wasn't developing that way, likely heard about it to no end from Julien, and decided they had to give him silly money to put up with it for another 6 years. I dare say it's even why the organization values McQuaid: he at least checks off two of the three Chara boxes, since he's tough in his own zone and willing to stick up for his teammates in the classic way.
 
*Krug's an obvious exception, as he's more the small, puck moving defenseman. He'll also never be confused with a top-pairing defenseman, so there's that.

 

[burstnbloom]

Good article from DJ Bean on it as well. I think this about sums up my feelings overall. He's been pretty spot on this entire process (he's a good twitter follow if you don't mind the volume). My favorite tweet of his was after the Rinaldo trade (paraphrasing): "The media generally knows more about FO thinking than they let on. That said, I legitimately have no idea what the Bruins are doing."
 
Link

 
DJ's best tweet on Rinaldo was "Bruins acquire F Zac Rinaldo, seemingly on purpose." 

 

[j44thor]

Basically, I don't understand why everything that happens every year is evidence of something that has been shown not to actually exist every single time we have this conversation on the board.

 
Except that they were 22nd in scoring last year and their possession stats are largely driven by having an all-world C in Bergeron and a couple good possession players in Loui/Marchand.
 
The game is changing and evolving and I'm afraid Claude isn't willing to change and evolve to the degree necessary.  They need to start realizing that the game is now a speed and transition game, not a defense first game.  Do you really think this will be a top 15 scoring team next year?  I don't and I don't think it will be close.
 
Claude's system/philosophy worked for a long time but all systems eventually run their course.  I think we are getting close to that point in time.

 

[kenneycb]

I'm sure losing Krejci for most of the year did nothing to push their scoring numbers down.  Nothing at all.

 

[TFP]

I would prefer if this thread did not turn into the same referendum on Claude's system that it always does, I think the more interesting topic is the different coaching styles across the NHL right now and how that might be changing in managing younger players, especially those with a ton of talent.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I would prefer if this thread did not turn into the same referendum on Claude's system that it always does, I think the more interesting topic is the different coaching styles across the NHL right now and how that might be changing in managing younger players, especially those with a ton of talent.

 
Quennville's a tough coach, but he seems to get along well enough with Kane, who strikes me as every bit the immature douchebag that Kessel and Seguin were purported to be. What's he do to make that work, besides pay Kane a lot of money?

 

[Red Right Ankle]

I'm sure losing Krejci for most of the year did nothing to push their scoring numbers down.  Nothing at all.

Also losing their top scoring defenseman basically every year since he was picked up for 25%.

 

[TFP]

 
Quennville's a tough coach, but he seems to get along well enough with Kane, who strikes me as every bit the immature douchebag that Kessel and Seguin were purported to be. What's he do to make that work, besides pay Kane a lot of money?

That's exactly the question that is of interest to me. Quennville is a tough coach, one who believes in defense first, but he's adapted somehow to the team he has, I'm curious what he does differently. He's also turned Kane into a weapon as well, he's matured quite a bit and is a superstar now, he was just talented offensively when he started. It's like him and Kessel came to the same fork in the road and took different paths.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And Kessel just got traded to Pittsburgh, so that's now two organizations that are officially sick of his shit, even though he can score goals like a madman.
 
Find a coach that can work with him and you've got yourself a Jack Adams winner.

 

[Myt1]

 
Except that they were 22nd in scoring last year and their possession stats are largely driven by having an all-world C in Bergeron and a couple good possession players in Loui/Marchand.

And? You're going to ding Claude's system for a hypothetical possession problem that doesn't actually exist and then deny him credit for the players the team has sought or retained who flourish in the system as it actually exists?
 

The game is changing and evolving and I'm afraid Claude isn't willing to change and evolve to the degree necessary.  They need to start realizing that the game is now a speed and transition game, not a defense first game.  Do you really think this will be a top 15 scoring team next year?  I don't and I don't think it will be close.

Eventually, the stopped clocks will be right. Whether they're right for the reasons they believe to be true or for others won't matter.

But the Bruins were 3rd in goals in 2013-2014. So tell me this: Did Claude's system fundamentally change last season? Did the league fundamentally change last season? Or did the fact that the Bruins had two healthy defenseman who were even competent at the breakout probably cause the difference?
 

Claude's system/philosophy worked for a long time but all systems eventually run their course.  I think we are getting close to that point in time.

Yes. As recently as 2013-2014, it worked great.

God, this gets dumber every time. Knock yourself out if you want to continue down the rabbit hole.

 

[Toe Nash]

Their possession stats are actually good because Bergeron is a God.
 
Since 2010-11, including playoffs, the team has a 58.12 CF% with Bergeron on the ice and a 50.70% without. Only the Sedins have a higher CF% relative to the rest of their team, and they always play together which boosts each of their numbers (Bergeron plays mostly with Marchand, and he is good, but not near the same level).  
 
The goal numbers are largely a function of shooting percentage and power play success which can vary a lot year-to-year even with the same players. The team's shooting percentage over that time has ranged from 9.6% in 13-14 to 8.2% in 12-13 and 8.2% again last year. One percentage point in SH% is about 25 goals which last year would be the difference between 3rd and around 15th. Jarome Iginla helped their shooting percentage in 13-14, but not to that extent.
 
Possession numbers take less time to become meaningful which is why advanced stats like them, and they LOVE Bergeron. And Claude has recognized that he is good and gives him a lot of ice time. Bully for him. But what coach wouldn't do that? How he has handled other players is a lot more telling.
 
The problem is that Hamilton was showing signs of being the possession monster that Bergeron is -- his CorsiRel went from +3.2% to +3.8% to +4.7% last year which was the best season for a B's defenseman in recent history outside of Prime Chara. But Claude and the team didn't seem to recognize this. And we need to ask why.

 

[Myt1]

I'm not sure what your point is. This seems to be the run of posts:

A. This is the problem with Claude's system.
B. That problem doesn't exist.
C. Well, no, that problem doesn't exist, but it should exist less?

 

[Blacken]

And Kessel just got traded to Pittsburgh, so that's now two organizations that are officially sick of his shit, even though he can score goals like a madman.

Toronto probably would've kept him if there was any chance in hell of them doing anything.

Kessel keeps getting miscast. He's not a leader-type (when he talks, the dude sounds like he's got some massive social anxiety problems) but got thrust into that role with the Leafs, and Boston...well, we're fucking deranged in this town. I think Pittsburgh's going to be good for him and I don't think Johnston is going to have any problems with him because he doesn't have to be The Guy. Instead, "Phil, just chill out, let our pet robot Sid answer the stupid media questions and run LEADER.BAT, go score a billionty goals."

 

[Toe Nash]

I'm not sure what your point is. This seems to be the run of posts:

A. This is the problem with Claude's system.
B. That problem doesn't exist.
C. Well, no, that problem doesn't exist, but it should exist less?

I don't have a problem with the "system", I have a problem with Claude and the front office not identifying what makes a good hockey player, whether young or old. It just pops up in young players because the team isn't going to go acquire someone who they think they'll hate.
 
Your points were that they have been above average in goals per game and were a good possession team, therefore the system works. Except the #1 reason they are a good possession team is Bergeron. They haven't shown a propensity to value possession in any other players. If Bergeron had a concussion again, the team would be average or worse. Even if they just traded him for someone who was decent, they wouldn't be particularly good anymore. 
 
Put another way, how good would the team be if they had played any number of freely available players over Greg Campbell? Seidenberg? These are simple decisions that the team struggles at. The McQuaid contract is obviously another example -- they are valuing something else that he provides even though he doesn't do anything for scoring, shot suppression or possession. Why?
 
Yes, they like Bergeron. But none of their other moves suggest they emphasize players who move the Corsi needle.