Clowney, the unblockable Cock

PaulinMyrBch

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You are an apologist. That's OK with me. I saw plenty of plays right at him, one where he was naked with a tackle. See whatever you want. I know what I've seen for three years. I saw it tonight. AGAIN.

How much rest do you need when you don't play for 9 days? I'd play him to get him in shape. It's an issue.

Let the season play out. We shall see.
 

JShams

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Deathofthebambino said:
Want to venture a reason as to why UNC's outstanding offense has only been able to muster 10 points?  You don't think the fact that they can't use about 25% of the field in their game-plan has anything to do with it?  You don't think the 2-3 guys they have to assign to him every time they try to drop back in a 3-5 step drop affects what's available elsewhere?  You think they continuously choose to run into one side of the offensive line over and over again, even though the rest of the SC defense is loading up that way doesn't hurt their running game?
 
JJ Watt rushed the passer 671 times last season.  You know how many times he got to the quarterback?  24.  That's 3.5%.   Only 4 of his 20.5 sacks came when he beat a double team.  17 of his sacks happened when Houston had the lead, and presumably, the opposing team had mostly abandoned the run so he could just pin his ears back and most of his sacks (I believe 17 or so, IIRC) came against right guards and tackles because he lines up primarily on the left side of the defense, as opposed to the left guard, which is usually the best pass protector for an offense.
 
I love JJ Watt, and I think he's one of, if not, the best defensive player on Earth, but defense is a team game, and getting sacks is a result of a combination of a ton of shit coming together.  If UNC ran their normal offense, and blocked Clowney like a normal DE, he'd probably have 3-4 sacks tonight, and every game after, but when you have one guy that is so much better than the rest of his teammates, you game plan against it.  It's what Belichick does every week in Foxboro.  He eliminates the opposing team's best couple of players and makes the rest of the team beat the Pats.  Tonight, the rest of the team is getting it done, but acting like Clowney is doing nothing and accomplishing nothing in this game is just remedial football observation.
This is UNC's offense. Nothing out of the ordinary tonight.
 

Deathofthebambino

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JShams said:
This is UNC's offense. Nothing out of the ordinary tonight.
 
UNC's offense was the 11th best scoring offense in the FBS last year, at almost 41 points a game, and 15th in yardage.  Not sure I follow you.  Their offense is pretty fucking good.
 

JShams

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Deathofthebambino said:
UNC's offense was the 11th best scoring offense in the FBS last year, at almost 41 points a game, and 15th in yardage.  Not sure I follow you.  Their offense is pretty fucking good.
This is there offense. Screens. Misdirections. Zone reads. They haven't changed anything for clowney, they re just getting beat by a better team. Also, Carolina put up 66 on Idaho and 62 on elon and they didn't play against a defense close to the caliber of South Carolina. They played like a team that lost 3 of their top 4 linemen and a running back that will be starting the nfl.

There was one play where clowney beat hurst clean, everything else he was pretty well able to handle him. Clowney didn't "take money out of his pocket" like he claimed he would.
 

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DukeSox said:
Typical Carolina
Just like the dirty hit a duke lineman threw on Tim Jackson last year that ended his season. Stick to basketball at least you can fake knowing something about that sport.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I don't think it's a Carolina thing, or a Duke thing, or anything other than a pathetic, cowardly act that deserves an extreme punishment.  Shit like that could literally ruin a guy's career, and in Clowney's case, that's some real shit.
 
FTR, the player is Offensive Lineman Kiaro Holts.  If the NCAA doesn't suspend him for a significant number of games, I'll be surprised and disappointed.
 

kenneycb

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Deathofthebambino said:
I don't think it's a Carolina thing, or a Duke thing, or anything other than a pathetic, cowardly act that deserves an extreme punishment.  Shit like that could literally ruin a guy's career, and in Clowney's case, that's some real shit.
 
FTR, the player is Offensive Lineman Kiaro Holts.  If the NCAA doesn't suspend him for a significant number of games, I'll be surprised and disappointed.
Prepare to be surprised and disappointed.
 

JShams

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Deathofthebambino said:
I don't think it's a Carolina thing, or a Duke thing, or anything other than a pathetic, cowardly act that deserves an extreme punishment.  Shit like that could literally ruin a guy's career, and in Clowney's case, that's some real shit.
 
FTR, the player is Offensive Lineman Kiaro Holts.  If the NCAA doesn't suspend him for a significant number of games, I'll be surprised and disappointed.
Considering the lengths to which the NCAA will protect the sec, he'll probably be sent to jail for 5 years.
 

Greg29fan

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Deathofthebambino said:
 
UNC's offense was the 11th best scoring offense in the FBS last year, at almost 41 points a game, and 15th in yardage.  Not sure I follow you.  Their offense is pretty fucking good.
 
Let me make a more substantive post - it remains to be seen how good Carolina's offense in 2013-14 will be without Gio Bernard, who was pretty much the straw that stirred the drink on that side of the ball.  He was Renner's safety valve throwing the ball, creating more room for Quinshad Davis and Erik Ebron (Erik Highsmith did too, and he's also gone), he ran for 1,300 yards (something AJ Blue can probably only dream of doing) and he returned punts and kicks (he wouldn't have dropped that back-breaking punt).
 
and yes that chop block was not cool
 

OCST

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JShams said:
This is there offense. Screens. Misdirections. Zone reads. They haven't changed anything for clowney, they re just getting beat by a better team. Also, Carolina put up 66 on Idaho and 62 on elon and they didn't play against a defense close to the caliber of South Carolina. They played like a team that lost 3 of their top 4 linemen and a running back that will be starting the nfl.

There was one play where clowney beat hurst clean, everything else he was pretty well able to handle him. Clowney didn't "take money out of his pocket" like he claimed he would.
 
Other schools' numbers aren't padded by blowouts of weak sisters?
 
I have no dog in this fight; I haven't seen enough of Clowney to argue with the people here who have.  This observation just strikes me as odd.  EVERY top-ranked offense has its numbers inflated by a few games against teams that have no business being on the same field.
 
edit: also, "screens, misdirections, zone reads" makes it sound like you're dismissing their offense as smoke and mirrors, or as less than good offensive football.  Well, these are all legit tactics.  If they gain yards and score points using such plays, then they are, by definition, good offensive plays.  Go ahead and stop them.  Dismissing them sounds like the things people say about knuckleballers, that they're throwing a "trick pitch" and they're not real pitchers. Well, if the guy is such a pussy, then hit the fucking thing already.  Oh, you can't?   Oh, okay then.  Same thing here.  
 

JShams

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OilCanShotTupac said:
Other schools' numbers aren't padded by blowouts of weak sisters?
 
I have no dog in this fight; I haven't seen enough of Clowney to argue with the people here who have.  This observation just strikes me as odd.  EVERY top-ranked offense has its numbers inflated by a few games against teams that have no business being on the same field.
 
edit: also, "screens, misdirections, zone reads" makes it sound like you're dismissing their offense as smoke and mirrors, or as less than good offensive football.  Well, these are all legit tactics.  If they gain yards and score points using such plays, then they are, by definition, good offensive plays.  Go ahead and stop them.  Dismissing them sounds like the things people say about knuckleballers, that they're throwing a "trick pitch" and they're not real pitchers. Well, if the guy is such a pussy, then hit the fucking thing already.  Oh, you can't?   Oh, okay then.  Same thing here.
1. Was just pointing out that Carolina had two games against really, really inferior schools. That's all.
2. I wasn't dismissing their offense, I was responding to the fact that Death implied that they had changed their offense for this game. They didn't. This was going to be their offensive game plan whether Clowney was there or not. Renner's not going to take five step drops and sit in the pocket on every passing down. This isn't the Butch Davis/John Shoop offense anymore (thank God for that).
 

DukeSox

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Well it looks like Spurrier came down on the side of "out of shape" in his post game.  
 

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Deathofthebambino said:
I don't think it's a Carolina thing, or a Duke thing, or anything other than a pathetic, cowardly act that deserves an extreme punishment.  Shit like that could literally ruin a guy's career, and in Clowney's case, that's some real shit.
 
FTR, the player is Offensive Lineman Kiaro Holts.  If the NCAA doesn't suspend him for a significant number of games, I'll be surprised and disappointed.
 
I don't believe the NCAA typically (ever?) suspends players for on-field conduct. That's the conference's job.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Statman said:
 
It wasn't just rest and a conditioning issue.  Clowney was sick with a stomach virus and wasn't able to eat much before the game.
 
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--jadeveon-clowney-doesn-t-need-another--hit--to-live-up-to-the-hype-052859726.html
 
I find it hard to believe.  The HBC wasn't aware of the stomach excuse until halftime?  I know kids under the care of the USC medical staff for both football and baseball.  The level of immediate attention they get is first rate.
 
He's making excuses IMO, however, since I'm OK admitting I'm wrong if proven so, we'll see how he looks versus Georgia.  He should be shitting solids by then.
 

LeoCarrillo

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This guy is a classic, Steve DaVisor.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWNYt_3Q8OU
 

PaulinMyrBch

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So week 2 comes and goes, looks like someone stepped on his foot in practice.  The drama builds for the week 3 excuse.
 

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Excuse away. The man is still dominant. There were numerous times he was double or triple teamed. The majority of the plays ran away from him. So much so that they flipped him to the other side of the D line.

Yes, he was aggressive on the goal line counter and got burned (UGAs 2nd or 3rd TD). There were also plays where his back side pursuit was terrible. To he fair though, this was often limited by 72 (73?) going after his legs almost every time (legally). There were also numerous holds.

The kid is a physical specimen. Teams gameplan to avoid him. He is still only 1 of 11 on D, and he does have his flaws, but he is a damn talented football player.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I really don't know what people expect from a defensive lineman.  It's not like he's playing QB and has the ability to put up huge stats.  I can only think of 2 plays today that he didn't make that he should have.  I also saw him almost get to Murray on like a 2 step drop (Murray lofted up a duck and his receiver ran under it), he abused a defensive lineman on his sack, he made a really good tackle on a running play away from him when  he flattened out and went down the line of scrimmage.
 
It's like folks think because he's a stud, he should be making a play on every play.  Football doesn't work that way.  A million things have to happen for any given defender to be in a position to make a play.  I'll keep saying it, the guy could literally make zero sacks and zero tackles and it wouldn't mean shit as to how well he played the game.  Vince Wilfork doesn't exactly light up the stat sheet either, but that's because he's fighting double and triple teams, which for his entire career, has opened shit up for the guys around him. 
 
And the bullshit about how he takes plays off is bullshit.  I've watched about 20 different college games today and I've yet to see a single defense lineman play any harder than he does on every play.  When the ball is going away from someone or it's already by them, 90% of all defensive lineman start jogging or stop altogether.  I swear that Clowney is the only defensive guy that casual football fans watch consistently, so they don't notice that their complaints about him could apply to just about everyone else that's ever strapped on a helmet.
 
I just watched three guys on the Arizona defensive line "take a play off" when the ball was run to the left sideline.  They should all get benched.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Ok DOTB, I'll make a Clowney truce with you.
 
  • I'll concede he's a beast, I've done it a bunch already.  He beats double teams.
  • I'll concede his stats will not look great this year due to teams game planning runs away and 2-3 step drops on passing plays.  He's a gameplan guy now, say hello to Deion Sanders, Darrell Revis, Reggie White while you're there.
  • I'll concede that he changes the game even when he is not in on the tackle or directly involved in the play, as he forces offensive players out of the position on the play completely screwing up the flow of the play.
  • I'll even concede that at times he's going to be gassed from chasing down sweeps to the offensive right when he's lined up as right defensive end.  Generally chasing plays farther than most college defensive ends.  Whether he should be gased is another issue.
 
But...you have to concede the following
 
  • At times, his assignment is to set the edge and once he does that he just watches.  Not always, but enough where you've noticed.  
  • The triple team talk is bullshit.  I'm not talking about 2 or 3 guys having contact with him because he stunted through the A gap, I'm talking about a true third guy assigned to block him.
  • He should shut his mouth.  Enough about the hit, money out of the pocket, I'm sick, my foot hurts, the D isn't using me right...he should just play.
We got a deal?
 

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What is going on with this guy?  His agent tell him not to play or something?
 
http://college-football.si.com/2013/10/05/steve-spurrier-jadeveon-clowney-south-carolina/?sct=cf_t2_a1
 
Spurrier says Clowney told him just before game he couldn't play. "I will just say he told me he couldn’t play."
 
Spurrier on Clowney: "If he wants to play, we will welcome him to come play for the team if he wants."
 
DC Ward: "I was totally surprised" when Clowney said he couldn't play.
 
Ward: If JD is able to play, he'll play. If not, we will put 11 guys out there and he knows that."
 
More Spurrier on Clowney: "If he doesn’t want to play, he doesn’t have to play, simple as that."
 
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Rib injury apparently, but to say its odd for the player to make the decision not to play is an understatement. And for Spurrier to go public with the fact that the it was the player who said he wasn't playing and not keep that stuff in-house or have a company line 'traning staff made the decision' as a talking point is even more bizarre (although not a surprise with the HBC).  Spurrier is dealing with more crap from this guy behind the scenes....what he's willing to make public is probably the tip of the iceberg.
 
Apparently they don't have evoshield at the Dick's in Columbia. 
 
Local Story
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Close the book, let the NFL GM's sort him out. 
 
Played 10 games, skipped 2, 36 tackles, 3 sacks. Tons of game film to debate the effort, motor, desire, whether he was hurt, out of shape, protecting himself, etc....and whether this guy is your #1 pick.
 
He's all yours...Atlanta, Minnesota, Jacksonville, Tampa, Washington, and Houston have at it.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Yeah, Paulin

Gotta say you presaged a bumpy season.

Still, he'll no doubt impress at the combine and go way high. 1 or behind a QB or two, I'd guess.
 

mascho

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Minnesota might make sense, to pair with/replace Jared Allen.  Unless they completely give up on Ponder.  
 
Washington would mean they've given up on Orakpo.  
 

PaulinMyrBch

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LeoCarrillo said:
Yeah, Paulin

Gotta say you presaged a bumpy season.

Still, he'll no doubt impress at the combine and go way high. 1 or behind a QB or two, I'd guess.
Watching him up close the first two years made that a pretty obvious call. Still seems like something is missing with this guy, but it's not my money. I guess we'll know for sure in a few years. I'd be shocked if he isn't top 3 depending on who needs what (QB's).
 

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Minnesota might make sense, to pair with/replace Jared Allen. Unless they completely give up on Ponder.

Washington would mean they've given up on Orakpo.


Doubt Washington is happening , no first round pick . Atlanta makes a lot of sense considering they are set at QB
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Dashboard cam.  Crazy, the cop was going 140 at times to chase him down.  Not much on here other than that as he stays in the car.  (There's a vid out there of the whole thing, but I couldn't find it on youtube, this one was edited.  The pursuit took 3+ minutes on the other one.)
 
And FWIW, he didn't get special treatment here.  A 6 point ticket in SC is a traffic ticket.  While it can be ticketed as reckless driving or speeding, they don't haul you to jail for that here unless you've got some suspension, insurance, or right to drive issue. Pretty routine except for the speed.
 
http://youtu.be/KUd6Qr4ZBTY
 

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PaulinMyrBch said:
Dashboard cam.  Crazy, the cop was going 140 at times to chase him down.  Not much on here other than that as he stays in the car.  (There's a vid out there of the whole thing, but I couldn't find it on youtube, this one was edited.  The pursuit took 3+ minutes on the other one.)
 
And FWIW, he didn't get special treatment here.  A 6 point ticket in SC is a traffic ticket.  While it can be ticketed as reckless driving or speeding, they don't haul you to jail for that here unless you've got some suspension, insurance, or right to drive issue. Pretty routine except for the speed.
 
http://youtu.be/KUd6Qr4ZBTY
 
I'm not sure how you can definitively say he didn't get special treatment by not being cited for reckless driving (which is a misdemeanor). How often do you suppose officers decline to give a citation for reckless when the offender is doing 40 miles over the speed limit?
 

PaulinMyrBch

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I was referring to the fact that he was given a ticket and not carted of to jail.  He didn't get special treatment in that regard.  They don't take anyone to jail for that in SC absent something else.  (When the news broke, some of the national stories mentioned that he was given a ticket instead of being arrested and taken in, implying he should have been arrested).
 
As for the Reckless v 25+ speeding ticket.  In SC, they are both 6 point tickets for the DMV.  So they are pretty much interchangeable for cops and municipal/magistrate courts because all anyone ever cares about when they're in traffic court is points on their license.  It's rare to see reckless tickets down here when its speeding and its an interstate.  Usually you need some swerving or danger within traffic for them to write it as reckless.  
 
I think they treated him as they would have anyone else.  
 

DukeSox

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And people were doubting he goes all out all the time...
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I am an Idiot said:
Like all elite athletes, he has the ability to put it in another gear when he wants.
 
Exactly.
 
I've seen you do this while drinking on a few occasions.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Clowney ran a 4.47 in Indy. I think that's game over. 1 pick. That's WR speed.
 

ivanvamp

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So if you're Houston, and let's say you could trade the 33 for Mallett and the Pats' 2nd round pick (#62), would you do it?  You use the #1 to pick Clowney (to pair with Watts…holy crap), get your future QB in Mallett, and then have the #62 and #65 picks.  So instead of drafting Bortles #1 and then getting a guy like Tuitt, they get Clowney, Mallett, and then the #62.  
 
For NE, they end up with picks #29 and 33.  They could then sign a guy like Cassel to back up Brady once again.  Something like that.  They could draft Amaro and maybe Tuitt.  
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Yes. Curious to see this play out. Wonder if coming in slightly shorter and lighter is noteworthy. Also wonder if he's more inclined to be a rush OLB in a 3/4 rather than a D end in a 4/3.