Chris Sale to IL with elbow inflammation

Leather

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Going back to this ...



I think this comment is more worrisome than the simple fact he’s seeing Dr. Andrews. Unless I’m misreading it (and I might be), Dombrowski is suggesting that the preliminary tests indicated that Sale will need surgery.

Fingers crossed that Andrews gives Sale the Price diagnosis.
He's not suggesting anything except Sale just received another very disappointing blow in a season that has been one disappointing blow after another. And Sale is a guy who once flipped out and cut up a uniform because he didn't like it, so he tends to take things kind of seriously. So, you know, maybe now isn't a good time to ask him many questions.
 

johnnywayback

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My apologies for singling out your post, but when I hear "not a strength" or "blow it again", I will point out that the current ownership group's strategy has resulted in 4 World Series titles. I think most posters, although certainly not all apparently, rather have those than be Tampa.
It's definitely fair to point out that this ownership group has been good at executing the "go all-in on elite talent rather than focusing on depth" strategy -- although I think the playoffs are largely a crapshoot, and that the difference between "flags fly forever" and "the Buffalo Bills" is mostly about how the ball happens to bounce. More to the point, I don't think these guys are dumb, I just think they're choosing to pursue a strategy that leads to boom-bust cycles like the one we're trapped in.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
My apologies for singling out your post, but when I hear "not a strength" or "blow it again", I will point out that the current ownership group's strategy has resulted in 4 World Series titles. I think most posters, although certainly not all apparently, rather have those than be Tampa.
Yes, but the current ownership's strategy has, until now, been pursued in a context of relative fiscal freedom, i.e., they have rarely, if ever, been unable to make a needed improvement because it was too expensive. In a context where they are committed to limiting payroll to get back out of LT purgatory, they are facing an uncharacteristically Tampa-like situation: they have to figure out how to get better on the cheap.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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It's definitely fair to point out that this ownership group has been good at executing the "go all-in on elite talent rather than focusing on depth" strategy -- although I think the playoffs are largely a crapshoot, and that the difference between "flags fly forever" and "the Buffalo Bills" is mostly about how the ball happens to bounce. More to the point, I don't think these guys are dumb, I just think they're choosing to pursue a strategy that leads to boom-bust cycles like the one we're trapped in.
Then why do you care? When you watch a roulette wheel spin, do you root for a particular number to come up, and then do you post on an internet forum in jubilation when it does and in frustration when it doesn't?

We are 10 months past a World Championship, and have more of them this century than anybody else. There are worse places to be "trapped."
 

Plympton91

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Then why do you care? When you watch a roulette wheel spin, do you root for a particular number to come up, and then do you post on an internet forum in jubilation when it does and in frustration when it doesn't?

We are 10 months past a World Championship. There's worse places to be "trapped."
I think this goes back to how people feel about the baseball season. Would you rather have a year with a World Series and a year for being functionally eliminated in mid-August, or would you rather have two consecutive years where you made at least the ALDS. Prior to 2004, I’d happily have taken any deal for one World Series. Having won 4 World Series in 14 years, I’m leaning toward the latter.

Maybe that means I’ll spoiled. Maybe it means my enjoyment of baseball is too parochially attached to the Red Sox. Maybe it means watching baseball occupies way to much of my late summertime / early fall utility function (I couldn’t care less about football).

But, it is what it is. An eliminated Red Sox team makes winter come too early.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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He's not suggesting anything except Sale just received another very disappointing blow in a season that has been one disappointing blow after another. And Sale is a guy who once flipped out and cut up a uniform because he didn't like it, so he tends to take things kind of seriously. So, you know, maybe now isn't a good time to ask him many questions.
Yeah. I think pretty much every pitcher who has ever heard the words "you need an MRI," "you have inflammation in your elbow" and "you should see Dr. James Andrews" knows there is at least a chance that this means he might not be able to do the thing he loves to do for at least a year. It's what these words in combination always mean.

Us trying to decipher whether he's also been given the idea that it's a 10 percent "might" or a 90 percent "might" seems like a waste of time. A ten percent might is enough for a pitcher not to want to do an interview at that point in time to talk about what he doesn't know.

I watched the press conference. I thought DD was pretty restrained in the face of some pretty stupid questions. My reading between the lines was that he was saying, "it's his fucking elbow guys," yeah it might be really serious.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think this goes back to how people feel about the baseball season. Would you rather have a year with a World Series and a year for being functionally eliminated in mid-August, or would you rather have two consecutive years where you made at least the ALDS. Prior to 2004, I’d happily have taken any deal for one World Series. Having won 4 World Series in 14 years, I’m leaning toward the latter.

Maybe that means I’ll spoiled. Maybe it means my enjoyment of baseball is too parochially attached to the Red Sox. Maybe it means watching baseball occupies way to much of my late summertime / early fall utility function (I couldn’t care less about football).

But, it is what it is. An eliminated Red Sox team makes winter come too early.
Are you being serious? You'd rather have contenders that don't win the World Series than a WS winner?

That's, well, different.

From a team building perspective, I'd rather finish in last place every time my team doesn't win a championship. But that's just me I guess.
 

bosockboy

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Are you being serious? You'd rather have contenders that don't win the World Series than a WS winner?

That's, well, different.

From a team building perspective, I'd rather finish in last place every time my team doesn't win a championship. But that's just me I guess.
Yes nothing eclipses a title. Last October completely washed away 2014-2015. If you won a WS every 4th year and the 3 others were .500 ish seasons, I’d take that every day.
 

Xander Betts Jr.

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The bigger the discount he was willing to take, the more convinced I was that he was unsure of his own health. Should have been a gigantic flashing red light.
You've made this claim a few times; it's really just a clever way of saying "either way, I was right". I get that you're on record against the extension, but saying you knew he'd be chronically injured because he took a reasonable deal??

I agree with the many others who have said that it was a reasonable, calculated risk given the extreme rarity of acquirable young elite SP.
 

BaseballJones

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I’d HAPPILY take this four year cycle. Two AL east crowns but early playoff exits. One WS championship. One disappointing third place finish.

Give me that every four years and I’ll be in glory.
 

judyb

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Yes, but the current ownership's strategy has, until now, been pursued in a context of relative fiscal freedom, i.e., they have rarely, if ever, been unable to make a needed improvement because it was too expensive. In a context where they are committed to limiting payroll to get back out of LT purgatory, they are facing an uncharacteristically Tampa-like situation: they have to figure out how to get better on the cheap.
Dombrowski has said ownership isn't limiting his ability to keep going over the highest luxury tax threshold, he said it's his choice to try to stay under it unless he has a chance to make moves that would be big enough improvements to be worth the draft pick and IFA spending penalties.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Dombrowski has said ownership isn't limiting his ability to keep going over the highest luxury tax threshold, he said it's his choice to try to stay under it unless he has a chance to make moves that would be big enough improvements to be worth the draft pick and IFA spending penalties.
Right, but doesn't it amount to the same thing? Even if the owners aren't constraining him, the practicalities of the situation are.
 

Cesar Crespo

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  • The starting pitching situation is... bad. Sale (injured), Rodriguez (22), Price (23, getting old), Eovaldi (23). Shawaryn and Houck join Johnson as 5/6/7 options. Better prospects like Mata, Groome (health permitting), and Song (Navy permitting) are a bit further down the road.
Mata's going to start next year in Pawtucket so it's not that unlikely he could see time in Boston next year. I also don't think they'll move Houck back to the rotation but that's not based on anything other than my opinion. He's looked really good out of the pen his last few outings and has actually been striking out a lot of guys. I think his stuff plays better out of the pen.

I also think Brayan Bello is going to shoot up these lists either in the offseason or next year. He's been on another level the last month or so and I'm not sure he's done adding velocity yet. Just like Mata, he was throwing 90-92 at 18 and 94-96 at 20.

As far as SP goes, I wouldn't be shocked if Daniel McGrath or Denyi Reyes made a handful of starts due to injury either. I'm guessing they'd fair about as well has Hector.
 

judyb

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Right, but doesn't it amount to the same thing? Even if the owners aren't constraining him, the practicalities of the situation are.
We don't know, he might be willing to take the highest penalties for multiple seasons, if it's the difference between replacing Porcello with an ace or someone like Cashner, and/or the difference between keeping Mookie or not.
 

RedOctober3829

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From Passan’s article...doesn’t seem like he’s out of the woods
“Following his last start six days ago, Sale felt soreness in his elbow and underwent an MRI. Initial readings showed changes from the MRI he took in the spring but weren't clear enough to definitively judge whether there was damage to his ulnar collateral ligament.”
 

glennhoffmania

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I assume they'll shut him down for the year. There's zero reason to risk putting him out there. Give him a full six months of rest before ST and start fresh in 2020.
 

jon abbey

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From Passan’s article...doesn’t seem like he’s out of the woods
“Following his last start six days ago, Sale felt soreness in his elbow and underwent an MRI. Initial readings showed changes from the MRI he took in the spring but weren't clear enough to definitively judge whether there was damage to his ulnar collateral ligament.”
It’s not well written, but I think the point is this is why he went to see Andrews who concluded it’s just inflammation.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I need someone to explain. Is this like a fan belt that’s frayed and will eventually snap? Is it something that rest cures or does rest just postpone things?
 

RedOctober3829

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It’s not well written, but I think the point is this is why he went to see Andrews who concluded it’s just inflammation.
As our resident ortho says, a reason to see him is to confirm what the team ortho thinks is going on. Seems like a lot of ambiguity with the MRIs though. I can gather from the article that there was some change in the UCL since the start of the season which is probably common but not enough to say it was torn and needs to be repaired. Tanaka has been pitching with a partially torn UCL for some time now and I believe Koji did that as well.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Well he honestly barely contributed to the WS victory last season.... I'm still holding onto a fantasy of the Sox going on a Colorado Rockies '07 style run and somehow making it in to the WC still and then just mowing down everyone in sight (with a slightly different ending than when they ran into the Sox concrete and steel reinforced wall that year but you get my idea....). It's likely not happening but I really hold onto these things until that elimination number is mathematically impossible to overcome.
Regarding the boom and bust vs consistent Atlanta Braves 90's teams.... I think the Sox are right now in the middle of a pretty awesome happy middle ground. I can't imagine actually enjoying the team if they were the '13 team framed in like they were by last place finishes. If the team is completely out of the playoffs by early July, it makes for a shitty fall. As frustrating as this season has been... they're still "in it"... and I'm still enjoying baseball games with some iota of importance to them. They have the pieces to compete again next year. Some probably disagree and see this as "boom and bust" but I think the team as presently constructed and going forward for the next few years is seriously different than the 2012-2015 cluster teams
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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As our resident ortho says, a reason to see him is to confirm what the team ortho thinks is going on. Seems like a lot of ambiguity with the MRIs though. I can gather from the article that there was some change in the UCL since the start of the season which is probably common but not enough to say it was torn and needs to be repaired. Tanaka has been pitching with a partially torn UCL for some time now and I believe Koji did that as well.
This was due to their strict Pizza and Burger diet though, which Sale has sworn off.
 

joe dokes

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I assume they'll shut him down for the year. There's zero reason to risk putting him out there. Give him a full six months of rest before ST and start fresh in 2020.
I assume they'll go along with whatever information they get from the doctors about how much time off is needed, in combination with where the team is.
 

staz

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Let's say 4 weeks' rest gets him 95% of the healing he'd have when camp opens. If so, then why not get him a couple of starts in late September to see how the elbow responds? Worst case scenario is that rest only delays an inevitable TJS - and this fact is discovered in February/March as opposed to September.
 

dcmissle

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Sweet Zombie Jesus, that's good news.

But wait, now I'm confused - who wins the I-told-you-so game now?
The people who said an Andrews' appointment does not equate to an appointment with a scalpel. And the people who offered Red Sox examples to support the assertion.

The team would be destroyed if the consultation were not arranged and it turned out he needed the surgery and got it on a delayed basis. But maybe that's the reason for going to DEFCON 1 out of the chute -- people are pissed at the season and want to be outraged and break stuff.

Re-evaluation by Andrews in 6 weeks brings us to the end of September, the end of the season. We won't see him again this season.
 

TrotNixonsHat

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Assuming the wildcard hunt is over (duh), what's the best thing the team can do to replace Sale in the rotation to get ready for 2020?

Do they just throw Mike Shawaryn out there and hope he further develops his repertoire? Use openers? Give the spot to Cashner, or BJ or Velazquez?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't care whether Sale pitches for the Sox again this season. What I really want to know is whether the definitively diagnosed "headcase" will finally buy into the Sox program and start consuming carbs once and for all.

And by "consume", I don't mean ordering pizzas just so he can cut the crusts off them with a pair of scissors.
 
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chrisfont9

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Assuming the wildcard hunt is over (duh), what's the best thing the team can do to replace Sale in the rotation to get ready for 2020?

Do they just throw Mike Shawaryn out there and hope he further develops his repertoire? Use openers? Give the spot to Cashner, or BJ or Velazquez?
Shawaryn? Erasmo Ramirez? Cashner seems obvious except they seemed to like what they saw of him in relief.
 

E5 Yaz

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Red Sox release says "Sale will be re-evaluated in six weeks."

So, you know, we can be having the TJS/contract discussion again to start the offseason
 

RedOctober3829

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Red Sox release says "Sale will be re-evaluated in six weeks."

So, you know, we can be having the TJS/contract discussion again to start the offseason
Yes that is what I took out of the Passan report. Things weren't exactly clear on the MRIs and both Andrews and Sox docs couldn't definitively tell if there was a UCL tear. Maybe they'll have to go in after the inflammation goes away and see what is there. There definitely isn't much to be excited about other than the fact he doesn't go under the knife now. Maybe he's Tanaka and can pitch with a partial tear and be fine.
 

Harry Hooper

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Yes that is what I took out of the Passan report. Things weren't exactly clear on the MRIs and both Andrews and Sox docs couldn't definitively tell if there was a UCL tear. Maybe they'll have to go in after the inflammation goes away and see what is there. There definitely isn't much to be excited about other than the fact he doesn't go under the knife now. Maybe he's Tanaka and can pitch with a partial tear and be fine.
I believe Tanaka, like Sale, got a PRP treatment


Addendum: Yes, here's a story.
 
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Sam Malone

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Sale has been so inconsistent for over a year, I was almost hoping they would find a reason to explain it.
 

Wingack

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This news feels like 2020 could be a repeat of this year for Sale, where he is being treated with kid gloves and maybe not make it through the whole season. You basically get 60 percent of him and maybe only half of that is top shelf ace pitcher.

He isn't on my team but do any of you guys feel like it might be better for him to go under the knife and just take care of things once and for all?
 

E5 Yaz

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He isn't on my team but do any of you guys feel like it might be better for him to go under the knife and just take care of things once and for all?
Now that they're tied into that extension, this what I'd do. Why get a another mediocre year (or two) and then have him have the surgery? Without the extension, I would lean the other way
 

chrisfont9

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This news feels like 2020 could be a repeat of this year for Sale, where he is being treated with kid gloves and maybe not make it through the whole season. You basically get 60 percent of him and maybe only half of that is top shelf ace pitcher.

He isn't on my team but do any of you guys feel like it might be better for him to go under the knife and just take care of things once and for all?
You don't get UCL surgery unless you have to, ever. I don't think they fix fraying tendons, they replace severed ones (using a tendon from the leg or other arm), so there is no "just get the surgery" thing until it tears completely.
 

strek1

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You don't get UCL surgery unless you have to, ever. I don't think they fix fraying tendons, they replace severed ones (using a tendon from the leg or other arm), so there is no "just get the surgery" thing until it tears completely.
That's why they're having so much trouble with these stupid parents who want their teenage kids to get it so they can throw harder. Idiocy.