Chris Sale to IL with elbow inflammation

genoasalami

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Anyone wanna read between the lines?

“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
 

Marciano490

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Anyone wanna read between the lines?

“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
He’s a human being dealing with a painful and potentially devastating personal and professional setback and wants a few days to himself to process it before being asked to speculate by a bunch of people he doesn’t have personal relationships with?
 

Plympton91

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so his options for 2020 were:

1) Extend Sale
2) Play out 2019 and risk Sale asking for >$200m
3) Let Sale walk and hope you’re the high bidder for Wheeler or Bumgarner for roughly Sale money (5/$125)
4) Let Sale walk and be the high bidder for a risky 3/4 starter like Hamels, Gibson, Keuchel, and/or Odorizzi at around 3-4 years and $45-60m
5) Trade a position player for a young starter last winter without going over the tax limit, his assets being a) five years of Devers, b) two years of Betts (at around $50m), c) four years of Benintendi, d) two years of Bradley, or e) Michael Chavis, who had no value and was seen as a toxic asset

What would you have done?
Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.

But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
 

YTF

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TJ surgery has him healthy around December 2020 and good for Spring Training. The Red Sox need to act if that’s the diagnosis and not try to luck out with alternative measures. Gambling and delay might bleed into the 2021 season.
Yep, IF Tommy John is in play here have it ASAP and come back in 2021. Can you imagine Sale coming back better than before like some of the guys who return from TJ? As for the extension hate up thread, I'll reserve judgement until we're at least a couple years into it.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.

But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
You are a hindsight visionary. If you could turn back time, if you could find a way, you would undoubtedly be the wealthiest person in the world.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He’s a human being dealing with a painful and potentially devastating personal and professional setback and wants a few days to himself to process it before being asked to speculate by a bunch of people he doesn’t have personal relationships with?
I think GS was referring to severity of injury, mostly in reaction to people suggesting that it may be a simple consult with Dr. Andrews.

Isn't there a theory that elbow issues are generally preceded by loss of location, not loss of velocity? If so, could explain Sale's season.
 

chawson

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Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.

But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
You’re sidestepping the question. There’s a relatively small set of options and a finite universe of players available. What exactly does “let the chips fall where they may” mean? Just re-sign Wade Miley?
 

scottyno

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Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.

But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
can we at least know what the injury actually is before we decide it's 5 years of dead money?
 

LogansDad

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You’re sidestepping the question. There’s a relatively small set of options and a finite universe of players available. What exactly does “let the chips fall where they may” mean? Just re-sign Wade Miley?
Fuck Wade Miley. He ruined Pedro's number retirement night, and I will never forgive him.

As for Sale, hindsight and all, but I liked the extension when it happened, and I still like it (though I admittedly have not watched much baseball this year as I'm in a huge transition year of my life and am trying to save as much money as possible, so i didn't get mlb.tv). He pitched well, held up better to the Boston scrutiny than a lot of other players, and seemed like a pretty good teammate so I have no issues with them giving him the money. This season has obviously been less than spectacular, and I am hoping for good news next week, but I don't really think this is the end of the world either way. If healthy, he would have cost a ton more on the open market this upcoming season, and it was a chance worth taking, in my opinion. And I still think it's more likely to workout than not.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Sorry folks. It was a reactionary post, which is why I took off for a few hours afterward. I'm leaving it up because I deserved all the snark.

I still think he's too slight for the stress he puts on his frame, but I guess there are also burgers and fries if he doesn't want to eat that much pizza. He should consult with Dr. Nick.
 

Plympton91

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You are a hindsight visionary. If you could turn back time, if you could find a way, you would undoubtedly be the wealthiest person in the world.
Not one iota of hindsight. It’s all on the record back in February/March.

I posted it was a mistake even before they finalized the contract, which you know.

The bigger the discount he was willing to take, the more convinced I was that he was unsure of his own health. Should have been a gigantic flashing red light.
 

Plympton91

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You’re sidestepping the question. There’s a relatively small set of options and a finite universe of players available. What exactly does “let the chips fall where they may” mean? Just re-sign Wade Miley?
No, you’re not accepting the option I gave.

Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
 
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When, exactly, did you say all this? I can't find this discordant note among all the hosannas about the signing on this board in late March and April.
 

jon abbey

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Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
And the best part about this plan is that Ellsbury should be back on the market after 2020, so you can build around him going forward as you so vocally wanted to.
 

dano7594

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Looking, trying, hoping for optimism here, and maybe they just are not saying but if it is his UCL, isn't there usually some type of forearm discomfort or pain? Or am I trying too hard?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Sorry folks. It was a reactionary post, which is why I took off for a few hours afterward. I'm leaving it up because I deserved all the snark.

I still think he's too slight for the stress he puts on his frame, but I guess there are also burgers and fries if he doesn't want to eat that much pizza. He should consult with Dr. Nick.
Here comes the pizza.
 
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No, you’re not accepting the option I gave.

Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
yup, should have kept Cherington around to do that
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
And the best part about this plan is that Ellsbury should be back on the market after 2020, so you can build around him going forward as you so vocally wanted to.
Ouch. Plympton, I've got some aloe vera in the medicine cabinet if you need it....:p

What it boils down to is that the Sox took a gamble with this contract (as all teams do on all big-ticket contracts--but this was a bit more risky a gamble than most, given the circumstances), and while this news significantly increases the likelihood that it will turn out to be a huge loss, it's way too soon to tell yet. For all we know Chris Sale's best years are ahead of him. Or he's done. Or he'll come back a lesser but still useful pitcher for a few years, and the Sox will take a middling loss on the contract and have to build around an overpriced #3-4 guy.
 

chawson

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No, you’re not accepting the option I gave.

Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
Great, go look at the 2020 free agent list and tell us who next year’s Victorino is, who the Dempster is, who the Napoli is, and which modern day Koji is ready to sign with us at 1/$4.5m.
 
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Not one iota of hindsight. It’s all on the record back in February/March.

I posted it was a mistake even before they finalized the contract, which you know.

The bigger the discount he was willing to take, the more convinced I was that he was unsure of his own health. Should have been a gigantic flashing red light.

I don't believe $29M per year is that big of a discount. He still had a year to go on his old contract so agreeing to an extension took away the risk of a bad season or injury this year. And maybe he likes playing in Boston.

I know that since it was his own body, he would have the most insight, but how would he know that he would have a higher chance of injury than other pitchers? What does that feel like?

The offers going back and forth were in writing so the Sox could not have reduced their offers in reaction to the "gigantic flashing red light". It might be that they faxed over what believed to be a lowball $145M offer and Sale signed it. If Sale sent the $145 offer to the Sox and they saw it as a warning sign, it still would have in been bad faith to offer $130M if they had already offered $140M. I've never heard of negotiations where an offer of less than you're willing to pay is a bad thing.
 
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johnnywayback

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Not one iota of hindsight. It’s all on the record back in February/March.

I posted it was a mistake even before they finalized the contract, which you know.

The bigger the discount he was willing to take, the more convinced I was that he was unsure of his own health. Should have been a gigantic flashing red light.
This is just sophistry. The fact that Sale is hurt now does not prove that he was hurt when he agreed to the contract, and it doesn't prove that you were right that they should have viewed his willingness to accept that deal as a sign that he was "unsure of his own health."
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
This is just sophistry. The fact that Sale is hurt now does not prove that he was hurt when he agreed to the contract, and it doesn't prove that you were right that they should have viewed his willingness to accept that deal as a sign that he was "unsure of his own health."
Well, particularly since the injury that had us all spooked about signing him was to his shoulder, not his elbow. Of course it's possible that there's a domino effect there, that pitching with a bum shoulder has put extra stress on the elbow somehow. But it's also possible that the two are unrelated.
 

effectivelywild

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This is just sophistry. The fact that Sale is hurt now does not prove that he was hurt when he agreed to the contract, and it doesn't prove that you were right that they should have viewed his willingness to accept that deal as a sign that he was "unsure of his own health."
On the flip side, pretty amazing than Xander has been able to tough it out this season given the injury he must surely have had which would have motivated him to sign his extension.
 

nvalvo

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Any Mookie trade better include a player or two who can help us right away AND some awesome prospects.

I would never move him for strictly prospects
Well, we have him under contract for 2020, and our 2020 rotation looks like a shambles right now, and given that this isn't the most attractive market for FA starting pitching, it's not clear what we'd do to patch that up. Maybe we could improve the rotation by trade, but it's hard to see how that would work with a weak farm system. MLBer for MLBer trades are pretty rare.



Name (FA)

Rotation
Sale (24)
Price (23)
Rodriguez (22)
Eovaldi (23)
Cashner (option for 20)
Johnson (24)

Infield
Travis (prearb)
Bogaerts (25)
Devers (24)
Hernandez (prearb)
Chavis (prearb)
Pedroia (22 – *sigh*)
Lin (prearb)

Outfield
Benintendi (23)
Betts (20)
Bradley (21)
Martinez (it's complicated)

Catchers
Leon (21)
Vazquez (22)

Bullpen
Darwinzon (prearb)
Barnes (22)
Workman (21)
Brasier (prearb)
Wright (21)
Velazquez (prearb)
Walden (prearb)
Weber (prearb)
Lakins (prearb)
Houck (prearb)
etc. etc.

Interesting Prospects
(Where "interesting" means players whom A) Sox Prospects gives an ETA before 2024 and B) I can squint and imagine them as a MLB regular.)
Dalbec 3b/1b, ETA 2020 — great start in AAA
Duran CF, ETA late 2020
Shawaryn RHSP, ETA 2020
Houck RHP, ETA 2020
Feltman RHRP, 2020 — trending sideways
Chatham SS, ETA 2020
Mata RHSP, ETA 2021
Casas 1b, ETA 2022
Groome LHSP, ETA 2022?
Ward RHSP, ETA 2022
Jiminez OF, ETA 2023
Song RHSP, ETA 2023

If Sale's meeting with Dr. Andrews goes poorly, the 2020 team does not look like a realistic contender; it looks like a tremendous offense with a spit-and-baling wire pitching staff. While my preference would be to resign Betts if at all possible, that requires his participation (and he has a lot of good options). I think the assumption needs to be that Bradley most likely leaves in FA after 2021. Moreland, Holt and Pearce are FA. Porcello is a FA. Cashner's option is probably a bad value. Pedroia is doomed.
  • The position player core is then Bogaerts (25), Martinez (it's complicated), Devers (24), Benintendi (23), Hernandez (prearb), Vazquez (22), Dalbec (at 1B from mid 2020?), Duran (at CF from 2021).
  • The starting pitching situation is... bad. Sale (injured), Rodriguez (22), Price (23, getting old), Eovaldi (23). Shawaryn and Houck join Johnson as 5/6/7 options. Better prospects like Mata, Groome (health permitting), and Song (Navy permitting) are a bit further down the road.
  • The bullpen is too erratic to project.
That suggests to me a step back, with an eye to a new window in 21-24. I'm not sure it's what I'd do, but I tried gaming that out a bit to see what it might look like.

Deal Betts (20) this offseason. Sign or promote a cheaper FA outfielder (Puig? Castellanos? Dickerson?... Owings?). Extend Devers, Rodriguez and maybe Benintendi. At the 2020 deadline, aim to trade Bradley (21), maybe Eovaldi (23) if he has a positive value, and perhaps even JD Martinez. Deal one of Barnes or Workman, and extend the other. In all of these deals, aim to trade for the best prospects available, with a mild bias towards starting pitching. We already have a decent pile of okay prospects: we want quality over quantity, level A+ and higher. We need ceiling.

Then: look to get Sale back in Spring Training 2021, promote a whole wave of optionable pre-arb talent between 2020 and 2023 — with Dalbec and Duran and whomever we trade for leading the charge.

The aim is for the 2021 Red Sox to look something like this:

Sale
Price
Rodriguez
TBD Young SP #4
TBD Young SP #5

CF Duran LH
SS Bogaerts RH
3B Devers LH
DH Martinez or TBD RH
LF Benintendi LH
1B Dalbec RH
2B Chavis RH
C Vazquez RH
RF TBD LH

Bench
Marco LH
Chatham RH
4th OF TBD
Leon or TBD RH

And a bullpen about whom it is useless to speculate...

...with a ton of optionable players in the high minors behind them on the 40-man.
 

johnnywayback

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Well, we have him under contract for 2020, and our 2020 rotation looks like a shambles right now, and given that this isn't the most attractive market for FA starting pitching, it's not clear what we'd do to patch that up. Maybe we could improve the rotation by trade, but it's hard to see how that would work with a weak farm system. MLBer for MLBer trades are pretty rare.
I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
If you have ~$30M to spend and expect to have money left over after signing a starting pitcher, cross Gerrit Cole off the list. He's not getting less than $25M and probably is looking at something just shy of Verlander/Greinke/Kershaw/Price/Scherzer kind of money ($30M).

That said, as has been discussed at length in the Betts thread...the idea of trading Betts for magic beans (otherwise known as top prospects) is a specious one. The number of teams that have both interesting prospects to trade and a willingness to pay him $25-30M for only one year of service is pretty damn low. That combination makes it unlikely he'll be moved.

To trade him, the team would have to be convinced that there is zero chance that they can sign him long-term, either to an extension or once he hits the free agent market. All we know now is that he's not interested in signing an extension before he hits the market. There's been nothing to indicate he wouldn't re-sign with the Red Sox following next seaason once he has the leverage of free agency, nor has there been any indication that there's a price the Red Sox would be unwilling to pay to bring him back.
 

nvalvo

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I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).

How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?
 

chawson

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Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).

How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?
If Sale’s out for 2020, nvalvo’s plan is a good one. Two things I’d add/change:

1. If you’re trading Betts, better to trade Workman this offseason rather than the 2020 deadline. His value will never be higher than now.
2. If trading Betts, I’d bid high on as many one-year deals as makes sense, with the eye on trading them at the deadline. Guys like, Hill, Roark; bullpen pieces like Nicasio, Rondon, Vizcaino, Will Harris. Sell it to the fan base as a retooled GFIN move, but know that you’re almost certainly gonna sell.
 

Plympton91

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On the flip side, pretty amazing than Xander has been able to tough it out this season given the injury he must surely have had which would have motivated him to sign his extension.
Did Xander Bogarts miss most the last third of the 2018 season and end the season unable to start a World Series game even on 5 days rest?

That’s just stupid. Chris Sale was badly injured at the end of 2018. He required kid gloves even at the start of spring training despite not pitching very much at all in the fall of 2018.

The extension was colossally stupid.
 

Plympton91

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I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).

How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?

What the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays are proving is that you don’t really need 5 good starting pitchers anymore. With Price, EdRo, and hopefully a healthy and consistently used Eovaldi, they’d be fine. Spend the money or some trade chips on three great 2-inning relievers who can be “openers” and see what happens.
 

jon abbey

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What the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays are proving is that you don’t really need 5 good starting pitchers anymore. With Price, EdRo, and hopefully a healthy and consistently used Eovaldi, they’d be fine. Spend the money or some trade chips on three great 2-inning relievers who can be “openers” and see what happens.
2 inning quality openers are pretty rare but also I think you underestimate how hard it is to just throw money at relievers and have them be really good. Yahoo did a list a day or two ago of every FA reliever who signed for more than $5M last winter, and almost all of them have been duds:

  • Craig Kimbrel (Cubs, $43 million): 5.68 ERA, one trip to IL
  • Zack Britton (Yankees, $39 million): 2.13 ERA
  • Jeurys Familia (Mets, $30 million): 6.30 ERA, two trips to IL
  • Adam Ottavino (Yankees, $27 million): 1.70 ERA
  • Andrew Miller (Cardinals, $25 million): 3.79 ERA
  • Joe Kelly (Dodgers, $25 million): 4.69 ERA
  • David Robertson (Phillies, $23 million): 5.40 ERA, one trip to IL
  • Kelvin Herrera (White Sox, $18 million): 6.88 ERA, one trip to IL
  • Joakim Soria (Athletics, $15 million): 4.79 ERA
  • Justin Wilson (Mets, $10 million): 2.66 ERA, two trips to IL
  • Cody Allen (Angels, $8.5 million): 6.26 ERA, one trip to IL, DFA’d
  • Jesse Chavez (Rangers, $8 million): 4.85 ERA, one trip to IL
  • Trevor Rosenthal (Nationals, $7 million): 13.50 ERA, one trip to IL, DFA’d

 

Plympton91

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Yeah, no doubt. I wanted Britton badly, and I knew the Yanks were getting the best reliever out there due to Ottavino’s desire for a homecoming. I didn’t want Kimbrel due to the high risk his playoff implosion implied and I wouldn’t have gone for any of the other old closers on that list, who all had red flags galore. You can look up my post mocking the Herrera signing and calling that one an accident waiting to happen

Seems Kelly has actually recovered his season if he’s down in the mid-4’s. Which means he’s still the same tease Joe Kelly has always been. Rosenthal I thought was a good risk for the Nats, sad that he hasn’t been able to come back. And Familia’s Melton is a surprise.

Yet every year the Rays come up with a high quality bullpen, by hook or crook. If they can do it on their budget, then figure the shit out too Dombrowski.
 
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DanoooME

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Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).

How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?
View: https://youtu.be/NkCa49I6_xw


Yahoo did a list a day or two ago of every FA reliever who signed for more than $5M last winter, and almost all of them have been duds:
I was looking at a list somewhere that showed 37 guys signed major league deals for various salaries from league minimum to the Kimbrel deal and I think there was something like 2 decent performances in it, and something like half of them have been released this season.
 

nattysez

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What the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays are proving is that you don’t really need 5 good starting pitchers anymore. With Price, EdRo, and hopefully a healthy and consistently used Eovaldi, they’d be fine. Spend the money or some trade chips on three great 2-inning relievers who can be “openers” and see what happens.
Yes, but in order to do this effectively, you need to sign/trade for the right relievers, and that does not seem to be a strength of this FO as presently constituted.

Nevertheless, I suspect that unless they get a tremendous offer for Mookie, the odds are high that they'll hang onto him and try to recreate the 1995 Sox, which had one starter with an ERA under 4 but had a very good pen and a playoff starting lineup with only two guys who OPS'd under 800 for the season.
 

johnnywayback

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Yes, but in order to do this effectively, you need to sign/trade for the right relievers, and that does not seem to be a strength of this FO as presently constituted.
Or pursue a strategy where you prioritize building/maintaining depth over signing/trading for specific elite players regardless of the value proposition, which does not seem to be the strategy of this ownership group as presently constituted.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think GS was referring to severity of injury, mostly in reaction to people suggesting that it may be a simple consult with Dr. Andrews.

Isn't there a theory that elbow issues are generally preceded by loss of location, not loss of velocity? If so, could explain Sale's season.
Has there ever been a "simple consult" with Dr. Andrews? That's like saying I'm going to visit Hell to check the place out.

I also don't recall a single second consultation with Andrews that resulted in, "Nah, team doc was wrong. You're all set now get out there on your 5th day."
 

Danny_Darwin

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Has there ever been a "simple consult" with Dr. Andrews? That's like saying I'm going to visit Hell to check the place out.

I also don't recall a single second consultation with Andrews that resulted in, "Nah, team doc was wrong. You're all set now get out there on your 5th day."
There are two examples in the thread of this very team receiving less-than-dire news from him: Josh Beckett (2008) and David Price (2017). Granted, both spent time on the shelf, but he didn't recommend surgery to either of them.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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There are two examples in the thread of this very team receiving less-than-dire news from him: Josh Beckett (2008) and David Price (2017). Granted, both spent time on the shelf, but he didn't recommend surgery to either of them.
Not only did he not recommend surgery, but neither one ever had elbow surgery, even years later. Obviously Price still has a few years to go, but both of them demonstrate that going to Andrews does not automatically mean surgery is imminent or necessary.

Based on what I've read and seen about Sale's elbow, he noticed tightness the day after his last start but not something that was so out of the ordinary to be concerning since it took him another couple days to tell the team docs (he reported it after it didn't go away). I'm not a doctor, but that doesn't strike me as a clear indication that surgery is required. The panic is basically that he's a pitcher and it's his elbow. I'm choosing to remain optimistic that it's minor and they're just proceeding with caution.
 

NDame616

will bailey
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Jul 31, 2006
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Has there ever been a "simple consult" with Dr. Andrews? That's like saying I'm going to visit Hell to check the place out.

I also don't recall a single second consultation with Andrews that resulted in, "Nah, team doc was wrong. You're all set now get out there on your 5th day."

"Clay Buchholz traveled to Florida to see renowned specialist Dr. James Andrews on Monday, and the report was a good one for Buchholz and the Red Sox.
Manager John Farrell announced prior to Monday night’s game that Dr. Andrews found no structural damage in Buchholz’s neck or shoulder. That is in line with what Red Sox doctors had found in Buchholz’s MRI, but the righty wanted a second opinion for “peace of mind,” according to Farrell.
"
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
Or pursue a strategy where you prioritize building/maintaining depth over signing/trading for specific elite players regardless of the value proposition, which does not seem to be the strategy of this ownership group as presently constituted.
Yes. The whole idea behind strategies like using an opener is (or should be) to maximize the value of affordable, non-elite pitchers by shaping roles to their abilities, so you don't have to pay a premium for pitchers to fit predetermined roles.

Based on what I've read and seen about Sale's elbow, he noticed tightness the day after his last start but not something that was so out of the ordinary to be concerning since it took him another couple days to tell the team docs (he reported it after it didn't go away). I'm not a doctor, but that doesn't strike me as a clear indication that surgery is required. The panic is basically that he's a pitcher and it's his elbow. I'm choosing to remain optimistic that it's minor and they're just proceeding with caution.
The unstated premise here (if it had been out of the ordinary and concerning, he would have spoken up immediately) suggests assumptions about human psychology that no doubt apply to many people, but certainly not to everybody. Many of us (I plead guilty) would be less likely to report an issue immediately if we feared it was career-threatening. I don't know if Chris Sale is that kind of person or the other, more rational kind.
 

doc

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Jul 14, 2005
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No, you’re not accepting the option I gave.

Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
We are not the Florida Marlins
 

lexrageorge

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Or pursue a strategy where you prioritize building/maintaining depth over signing/trading for specific elite players regardless of the value proposition, which does not seem to be the strategy of this ownership group as presently constituted.
My apologies for singling out your post, but when I hear "not a strength" or "blow it again", I will point out that the current ownership group's strategy has resulted in 4 World Series titles. I think most posters, although certainly not all apparently, rather have those than be Tampa.
 
Jul 5, 2018
176
Yes. The whole idea behind strategies like using an opener is (or should be) to maximize the value of affordable, non-elite pitchers by shaping roles to their abilities, so you don't have to pay a premium for pitchers to fit predetermined roles.



The unstated premise here (if it had been out of the ordinary and concerning, he would have spoken up immediately) suggests assumptions about human psychology that no doubt apply to many people, but certainly not to everybody. Many of us (I plead guilty) would be less likely to report an issue immediately if we feared it was career-threatening. I don't know if Chris Sale is that kind of person or the other, more rational kind.
There is no way he wouldn't disclose any tightness or soreness to the coaches. Trying to pitch through it could turn a 2 or 3 week recovery into Tommy John surgery. If I was the Sox management and he told me, "By the way, it started to hurt 2 weeks ago" I would go bellistic. He's a $145M investment and the Sox have every right to decide when he can pitch and when he needs to be shutdown.
 

Van Everyman

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Going back to this ...

Anyone wanna read between the lines?

“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
I think this comment is more worrisome than the simple fact he’s seeing Dr. Andrews. Unless I’m misreading it (and I might be), Dombrowski is suggesting that the preliminary tests indicated that Sale will need surgery.

Fingers crossed that Andrews gives Sale the Price diagnosis.