Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects

[Mugsy's Jock]

/hottake warning/
Everything Sale said and did yesterday was awesome. To wit:

1.) Offering support to Adam Jones, both with his well-expressed words

“Adam’s one of the best players in the game, and he’s very well-respected. He’s a good guy. I know him. He’s a good person. I don’t think anybody deserves to go through anything like that."

and with his actions (stepping off the mound to let the ovation continue).

2.) Simultaneously sucking up to the home crowd.

"I was appreciative of that moment. It was special to see Boston come together and make the right choice, do the right thing.”

3.) Sending a message to Machado with the pitch behind his knee. Me, I'm convinced the Machado slide was intentional and dirty and while I appreciate Pedey taking the high road, I also respect pitchers having the little guy's back. Barnes screwed it up by throwing too close to Machado's head, which was dangerous and inappropriate, but Sale put the pitch where it belonged.

4.) Handling the whole situation with stoicism (on Machado's being upset: "I'm not losing sleep over it") and humor (on pumping up his enthusiastic teammates when coming off after the brushback:

"I invited everybody over for a pool party. I enjoy those. Throw some ribs on the grill, maybe a steak or two. Just trying to get the boys together."

5.) And then there was what really mattered: shutting down a key division rival and stopping a losing streak.

Bra-fucking-vo.

http://nesn.com/2017/05/adam-jones-appreciative-of-red-soxs-chris-sale-fenway-crowd-after-ovation/
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/red-sox-vs-orioles-chris-sale-not-losing-sleep-over-beef-with-manny-machado/

 

[ehaz]

Since becoming a full-time starter in 2012, Chris Sale leads MLB in HBPs with 62. Other pitchers in the top 5 include noted control pitchers like Justin Masterson and RA Dickey.

 

[TimScribble]

 

[stormmon]

F that

 

[CantKeepmedown]

And Bundy's punishment is.......???

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You can't make this shit up...so what happens with Bundy? Ex Yankees looking out for each other here with Torre and Buck

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

So 2 Sox pitches will be suspended for not hitting anyone. Sounds about right.

 

[jimbobim]

A Sale suspension is the utmost garbage. Just pathetic. Anything else the Orioles want ?

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Having been given no pre-game warning, there's no legitimate way they can suspend Sale and not Bundy.

 

[bankshot1]

And Bundy walks with nothing?

F that.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Why no Bundy suspension?

 

[The Gray Eagle]

All Bundy did was just drill our best player intentionally to prolong this feud, so obviously nothing will be done to him.

Hart threw a pitch that almost beaned Benitendi last night, nothing was done to him either. The game situation made it seem unlikely that it was done on purpose, but in this atmosphere I wouldn't be at all surprised if the O's decided to throw at Benitendi the next time he came up, no matter who was on base. No one can know either way what he meant to do, but if Andrew didn't duck at the last possible second he'd probably be in the hospital right now. Seems like all Orioles pitchers are getting the benefit of the doubt from everyone while the Sox pitchers aren't.

Personally I think all 4 pitchers were throwing at batters, and Sale and Bundy did it correctly while Hart and Barnes did it terribly.

 

[RedOctober3829]

What an absolute joke. So Sale was the only one to throw at somebody? This is making an example of somebody just because a team whined to the media.

 

[jimbobim]

Torre's comments are just unreal

On the Red Sox’s Sale:
“That’s something we don’t really tolerate, throwing behind somebody . . . that’s something that’s dangerous.

“It looked like it was intentional. Chris Sale is a great pitcher. When he throws the ball behind somebody, unless it’s a rainy day. I don’t see that being by mistake.”

On Orioles right-hander Dylan Bundy, who hit the Red Sox’s Mookie Betts on Monday night:
“Could it have been on purpose? I guess, knowing the circumstances. But knowing the situation in the game where it was 2-0 and you’re bringing Hanley Ramirez, hot as a firecracker up to the plate. It didn’t make sense in that regard.

“That’s one, even though it makes no sense strategy-wise, I can’t say for sure that it wasn’t on purpose. Unfortunately, I’m seeing retaliation in a lot of cases take precedent over what makes sense. I can’t tell you for sure. I don’t think it was on purpose. But I can’t swear to it.”

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Please. That's preposterous.

Just absolutely terrible, the double standard.

Bundy should get what Sale gets. And Hart should get what Barnes already got.

And frankly, the abject double standard just pushes things to a later series and ensures that Hardy or Schoop or Machado are going to get spiked some time down the road.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

I've been mostly of the mind that this is really stupid and dangerous and that both teams share pretty solidly equal blame.

That being said--Joe Torre has been under-the-radar terrible at this job since he's gotten it, hasn't he? Can anyone remember a time he commented on a rules thing like this and they weren't kind of staggered by how stupid it was? Does he really not see how him parsing out his interpretation of the intent may be a bad precedent and practice in this case?

I'm for giving Sale some shit for keeping it going, but suspending him is fucking bonkers.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

And the pitch that was zooming toward Benentendi's head? Why isn't that being discussed!

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

You can't make this shit up...so what happens with Bundy? Ex Yankees looking out for each other here with Torre and Buck

I doubt that either Torre or Buck have fond memories about their exits from NY.

 

[InsideTheParker]

For all the reasons given above, I think this is so dreadfully unfair. If this is allowed to stand, some sort of protest has to be lodged with the league office, not just by the Red Sox, but by their fans. Outrageous.

 

[yecul]

Noted for the future: retaliate all you want and be as dangerous as you want, just ensure it's in a poor strategic moment that puts you at a disadvantage.

Since it doesn't make sense it won't be penalized.

 

[LesterFan]

Torre's comments are just unreal

On the Red Sox’s Sale:
“That’s something we don’t really tolerate, throwing behind somebody . . . that’s something that’s dangerous.

So I'm guessing Lance McCullers of the Astros is getting suspended, too. Right, Torre? http://m.mlb.com/video/v1342590683

This is bullshit.

 

[steveluck7]

Rosenthal clarifies

CLARIFICATION: Discipline for Sale, if administered, will not necessarily be suspension. Could be something less - warning or fine.

 

[Thetoddwalker]

“That’s one, even though it makes no sense strategy-wise, I can’t say for sure that it wasn’t on purpose. Unfortunately, I’m seeing retaliation in a lot of cases take precedent over what makes sense. I can’t tell you for sure. I don’t think it was on purpose. But I can’t swear to it.”

 

[pk1627]

Matthew Boyd of Detroit threw a pitch behind M Sano in April. His penalty?

"Boyd was fined after MLB concluded he intentionally threw a pitch at Sano."

 

[Thetoddwalker]

Delete

 

[drbretto]

I just saw the Benintendi head shot on Sox in 2. That was directly at his head. Not near the head, or behind the head or by the head. It was a bullet directly at the current location of Benintendi's head.

 

[LogansDad]

Yep. It was.

But the Orioles are "plucky" and the Red Sox are "dirty"... so here we are.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I've been mostly of the mind that this is really stupid and dangerous and that both teams share pretty solidly equal blame.

That being said--Joe Torre has been under-the-radar terrible at this job since he's gotten it, hasn't he? Can anyone remember a time he commented on a rules thing like this and they weren't kind of staggered by how stupid it was? Does he really not see how him parsing out his interpretation of the intent may be a bad precedent and practice in this case?

I'm for giving Sale some shit for keeping it going, but suspending him is fucking bonkers.

Don't think there's anything 'under the radar' about it. He's been an unabashed embarrassment for the league since he took the job. Literally no rhyme or reason to his decisions.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I doubt that either Torre or Buck have fond memories about their exits from NY.

You could also say the same about Bob Watson and he used to come down harder on the Sox than any other team.

 

[LesterFan]

As if anyone had any doubts:

Bob Nightengale @BNightengale10m
Dylan Bundy did masterful job disguising intent when he hit #Redsox Betts,but it was clearly deliberate; even #Orioles privately acknowledge

 

[joe dokes]

What the Sox need is someone with good bat control to line one off Showalter's face:

 

[koufax37]

Personally I think all 4 pitchers were throwing at batters, and Sale and Bundy did it correctly while Hart and Barnes did it terribly.

I don't think Sale did it correctly at all...Bundy did. Sale did what ERod did and what a lot of lefties do when trying to extend their release point beyond where it normally goes, also direct the pitch too low. Meanwhile Barnes did what happens when a righty tries to release the ball earlier and left it high.

Bundy's was perfection in terms of execution, and clearly on purpose (change in his lower half allowed him to drill him without messing up his release point). Unfortunately his was the one that prolonged what was supposed to be a closed wound. The rest all failed to execute.

 

[BaseballJones]

Sale's MLB rankings:

bWAR: #1 (2.4)
ERA: #4 (1.38)
WHIP: #2 (.745)
K/9: #3 (12.4)

Keuchel and Santana are having comparable seasons so far.

bWAR
- Sale: 2.4
- Keuchel: 2.3
- Santana: 2.3

ERA
- Sale: 1.38
- Keuchel: 1.21
- Santana: 0.66

WHIP
- Sale: .745
- Keuchel: .806
- Santana: .707

K/9
- Sale: 12.4
- Keuchel: 7.3
- Santana: 7.2

Where Sale crushes them is in FIP:
- Sale: 1.41 (vs. 1.38 ERA)
- Keuchel: 3.37 (vs. 1.21 ERA)
- Santana: 2.98 (vs. 0.66 ERA)

 

[steveluck7]

So what's so bad about throwing well behind a batter? I never understood that. Sales pitch never ha a chance of hitting Machado and sent the clear message. I think I'd rather have pitchers throwing behind guys than trying to hit them somewhere other than the head

 

[Captaincoop]

MLB is more at fault in this whole brouhaha than either the Orioles or the Red Sox. Machado should have been disciplined for the slide, end of story. He wasn't, and his slide injured a key Red Sox player. It was 100% certain things would escalate from there.

Penalizing Sale after not penalizing Bundy just continues the botchfest by Torre and his staff.

 

[charlieoscar]

MLB is more at fault in this whole brouhaha than either the Orioles or the Red Sox. Machado should have been disciplined for the slide, end of story.

Awarding the DP because of interference from the slide might have been enough to keep the situation in hand.

 

[MuzzyField]

Awarding the DP because of interference from the slide might have been enough to keep the situation in hand.

I'm not sure Buck would be done throwing shit on the field if this happened.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

MLB is more at fault in this whole brouhaha than either the Orioles or the Red Sox. Machado should have been disciplined for the slide, end of story. He wasn't, and his slide injured a key Red Sox player. It was 100% certain things would escalate from there.

Penalizing Sale after not penalizing Bundy just continues the botchfest by Torre and his staff.

It's naive to believe that league discipline would have curtailed any "retaliation" by the Red Sox. Especially if one also believes Bundy throwing at Betts is part of the chain of escalation. After all, Barnes was disciplined by the league and that wasn't "end of story".

This crap is all simple old school frontier justice, and it's childish and asinine.

 

[koufax37]

So what's so bad about throwing well behind a batter? I never understood that. Sales pitch never ha a chance of hitting Machado and sent the clear message. I think I'd rather have pitchers throwing behind guys than trying to hit them somewhere other than the head

He didn't try to throw behind him, like Barnes didn't try to hit him in the head. Sale tried to hit him and failed to execute. His accuracy is good in the strike zone is pretty amazing, but when trying to hit someone, mechanics and release point changed. Better that way, because hitting him would be a suspension and more retaliation and we have to put this to bed. Although Sale wasn't protecting Pedey, but was protecting Betts.

 

[m0ckduck]

So what's so bad about throwing well behind a batter? I never understood that. Sales pitch never ha a chance of hitting Machado and sent the clear message. I think I'd rather have pitchers throwing behind guys than trying to hit them somewhere other than the head

I recall reading somewhere (apologies that I can't recall the source) that the batter's initial impulse is to back up to avoid the incoming pitch, and so it's kind of mindfucking the batter to throw behind him (as well as overtly dangerous, if the batter heeds the impulse). No idea if this is true-- maybe someone who's played baseball at a high level can weigh in.

 

[JimD]

Is it ridiculous to consider a new contract for Sale that pays him more in line with what he's worth in exchange for extending his deal past 2019? It's not as if the Sox have a pipeline of elite young starting pitching talent right now.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Is it ridiculous to consider a new contract for Sale that pays him more in line with what he's worth in exchange for extending his deal past 2019? It's not as if the Sox have a pipeline of elite young starting pitching talent right now.

Not ridiculous to consider but with the luxury tax implications, there's no sense in doing it this year. They can afford to wait until next year.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Not ridiculous to consider but with the luxury tax implications, there's no sense in doing it this year. They can afford to wait until next year.

There's no financial reason to extend Sale until Hanley and Sandoval are off the books, and since Porcello and Sale himself will also be coming off then, the FO has 75 million reasons to wait to reassess until then.

Extending Mookie and Xander needs to remain priorities 1 and 2.

 

[tims4wins]

There's no financial reason to extend Sale until Hanley and Sandoval are off the books, and since Porcello and Sale himself will also be coming off then, the FO has 75 million reasons to wait to reassess until then.

Extending Mookie and Xander needs to remain priorities 1 and 2.

This is probably for a separate thread, but I'd be hesitant to extend Xander at this point in time. Would like to see how his XBH trend over the next few years. He is a singles hitter right now.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

This is probably for a separate thread, but I'd be hesitant to extend Xander at this point in time. Would like to see how his XBH trend over the next few years. He is a singles hitter right now.

I'd like the Sox to extend him at the going rates for a good contact slap hitter and then enjoy his peak power years at a discount.

 

[charlieoscar]

This is probably for a separate thread, but I'd be hesitant to extend Xander at this point in time. Would like to see how his XBH trend over the next few years. He is a singles hitter right now.

58.1% GB this year to 46.4% GB last year (BA .326 to .317)
20.3% FB this year to 31.7% FB last year (BA .133 to .175)
The LD% is nearly the same (BA 750 to .739)

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

I'd like the Sox to extend him at the going rates for a good contact slap hitter and then enjoy his peak power years at a discount.

How do you think Mr. Boras will counsel his young client about your offer?

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

How do you think Mr. Boras will counsel his young client about your offer?

I think he'd give pretty much exactly the same counsel that Jet Sports would provide Chris Sale. Or that Legacy would give Mookie: take no less than what will truly satisfy you, even if you really want to stay.

But none of that negotiation stuff changes the fact that trying to extend Betts and Bogaerts should get higher priority than figuring out how to spend even more money on pitching.

Sale is club-controlled for another two years at ridiculously discounted rates. Any legitimate extension offer has to presume a range somewhere between Porcello's and Price's AAV. Why on earth wouldn't you ride out his current contract?

Never-injured David Price's current injury should be a cautionary tale here.

 

[MikeM]

Price MIA, and both Buchholz and Wright out for the season.

Standing pat would of been pretty painful right about now. Especially for DD.

 

[Jordu]

I recall reading somewhere (apologies that I can't recall the source) that the batter's initial impulse is to back up to avoid the incoming pitch, and so it's kind of mindfucking the batter to throw behind him (as well as overtly dangerous, if the batter heeds the impulse). No idea if this is true-- maybe someone who's played baseball at a high level can weigh in.

When the balance of your weight is forward on the balls of your feet and the ball is coming at you, your instinct is to jerk your head and upper body back. That's why hitters at any level get pissed at balls thrown behind them.

Unless the ball is at or below your knees. Then you dance.