Yes. Ortiz comes across as passionate whereas Sale exudes massive immaturity.
Chris Sale aiming to return
- Thread starter edoug
- Start date
When the Sox were struggling in the 2013 World Series, Ortiz -- the one guy who was hitting -- gathered his teammates and told them they were better than they were playing and to relax and play the game the way they know how. When the Sox were struggling in Game 4 of the 2018 Series, Sox launched an on-camera tirade against his teammates that was, in essence, "what the fuck is wrong with you guys?"
They won, like they did 118 other times that year when Sale didn't throw a hissy fit.
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Sale is sort of a lunatic. We have known that at least since the uniform incident. Ballplayers breaking things in the tunnel or the clubhouse is shitty behavior, but it's also pretty routine. This is only a story because of the video. Similar to Ortiz' incident: if he had gone down the tunnel and, I don't know, smashed a chair in the clubhouse, we never would have heard about it.
Would I like Sale to be less of a spaz? Sure. But I've never heard any indication that he's been violent against other people, so I'm willing to tolerate a bit of eccentricity. That said, he better have eft a respectable tip for the Worcester clubhouse staff. He's clearly trying his best to come back and pitch well.
(I also wouldn't mind if we were to hear that he'd followed Jarren Duran's example of putting being a good teammate ahead of pursuing one's own weird anxieties and scruples.)
Would I like Sale to be less of a spaz? Sure. But I've never heard any indication that he's been violent against other people, so I'm willing to tolerate a bit of eccentricity. That said, he better have eft a respectable tip for the Worcester clubhouse staff. He's clearly trying his best to come back and pitch well.
(I also wouldn't mind if we were to hear that he'd followed Jarren Duran's example of putting being a good teammate ahead of pursuing one's own weird anxieties and scruples.)
All that really matters is how he pitches rest of year ...and who the heck knows how that will go? Based on his recent track record, would not be shocked if he finds a way to get back on the DL. Probably best to keep expectations low and hope to be pleasantly surprised.
I don't think there could be another pitcher alive or dead that I loathe as much as Curt Schilling. I even hated him back before it was cool to hate him! But I was glad he was on the team in '04 and helped bring that WS to Boston. I'll never be a fan of Sale even if he helps bring another WS victory... but I'll be glad he was on the team if he helped out and I'll cheer him for the X number of innings while he's on the mound.
"The damage included a television set that was already broken (by another player in a similar outburst) and had an 'out of order' sign on it.
Coincidentally, the WooSox have a punching dummy in their clubhouse expressly for players to let off steam."
View: https://twitter.com/Brandon_N_Wile/status/1545125750868680710
Sale on reaction to video: “I don’t care man, that’s their problem for videoing it. If you want me to act like a normal person then treat me like a normal person, this isn’t like a normal atmosphere. If I was at Bank of America it wouldn’t fly, but this isn’t Bank of America.”
View: https://twitter.com/MacCerullo/status/1545133903828107267
View: https://twitter.com/tylermilliken_/status/1545135783929151489
Coincidentally, the WooSox have a punching dummy in their clubhouse expressly for players to let off steam."
View: https://twitter.com/Brandon_N_Wile/status/1545125750868680710
Sale on reaction to video: “I don’t care man, that’s their problem for videoing it. If you want me to act like a normal person then treat me like a normal person, this isn’t like a normal atmosphere. If I was at Bank of America it wouldn’t fly, but this isn’t Bank of America.”
View: https://twitter.com/MacCerullo/status/1545133903828107267
View: https://twitter.com/tylermilliken_/status/1545135783929151489
View: https://twitter.com/MacCerullo/status/1545135431469105156
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/1545134984926724098
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He's a veteran presence in the clubhouse, and likely is someone a lot of younger guys in the minors look up to. Seeing him pitch a toddler tantrum after a bad start is not the behavior I want to see out of a guy of his stature. I don't give a shit that it's routine - be better. Set an example.
This deserves more love.
In the "sets a bad example" department, this is unnecessary kvetching. Average age in Worcester might be higher than the average age in some major league clubhouses. These guys were born in the early and mid 90s. They're not high school kids.
While you aren't wrong about the average age of the team, I would argue that the average age of players on the WooSox who are actually important to the organization's future is much lower.
Point #1 There is no difference or there should be no difference other than Ortiz is universally loved and Sale wears the bad guy hat. In the eyes of many he's fragile, there is resentment over his contract and his vaccination status pisses a lot of people off.
Point #2 We're all wired differently, but I see much of this as performance art. Does he care about his performance? I sure hope that he does and I believe that he does, but these sorts of outbursts...they almost seem forced as a means to show US how much they care. I think for many of these guys it's being done for our benefit. A sell job of sorts, "See, I'm just as pissed off as you are." I mean In real life how many of us behave in that manner when things turn to shit at work? Granted, most of us can't get away with it in the same way that star athletes might, but there are also no cameras to record and show how much we care and are upset by our shitty effort. A small, controlled "outburst" like tossing your glove at the bench as you enter the dugout, sure. Taking a bat to a phone, Gatorade barrel, bat rack, etc... or trashing the runway from the dugout from the clubhouse is (for whatever reason) is IMO a look at me moment designed to show the rest of us how much they care.
I don't think those kids are gonna be like "whoa, I can break stuff because Sale did?" He's just being an asshole, he admitted it, and had he gotten hurt it would deserve to be a good story.
It’s not like that. It’s more of a bunch of kids that look at Sale as a fragile, narcissistic asshole that can’t keep his shit together.
my family is a bunch of asshat jocks that smash shit when they start losing. It’s pathetic and drove me away from sports as a kid.
Actually Ortiz could have injured Pedroia, whose head was right next to the phone.
Point taken about the camera, but I contend as I did in my post that it's not exclusive to Sale.
Fun(ny?) tidbit about the already broken TV that Sale assaulted...Ryan Fitzgerald admits he was the one who broke it initially.
View: https://twitter.com/JoeyMacHockey/status/1545166928234397697
View: https://twitter.com/JoeyMacHockey/status/1545166928234397697
Sale was showing veteran leadership by paying for a broken TV that he could much more easily afford to replace than the guy who broke it initially.
Big leaguers are wired different. Sale said that’s why he’s a big leaguer, and I 100% believe it.
These guys are the 1% of the 1% and if being a competitive psychopath is how Chris Sale has made it and will make it back, then that’s his thing.
These guys are the 1% of the 1% and if being a competitive psychopath is how Chris Sale has made it and will make it back, then that’s his thing.
I don’t really care that he did it. I would care if he didn’t pay for the damage and slip the clubhouse guys some potato sack money for their trouble, although I don’t know that we’ll ever know whether that happened.
View: https://twitter.com/RochieWBZ/status/1545118892691013634
I imagine staff meant everyone working in the clubhouse?
I imagine staff meant everyone working in the clubhouse?
New charity-raffle concept at Fenway: one lucky winner is joined by Chris Sale, they go out to the mound with baseball bats during a commercial break, and they both beat the crap out of an old printer, Office Space style.
You know you'd buy a ticket.
Exactly this. I sure wish we ran Tom Brady out of town after he lost his shit on Bill O'Brien on the sidelines. What a bad influence on the rest of his teammates who suddenly thought it was OK to swear out their position coaches. Competitive people react in competitive ways. ~20 year old AAA players aren't going to have a sudden behavioral change because of Chris Sale's outburst - chances are they've all had a similar outburst recently after a poor performance, hence the broken TV and punching bag. That's sports. The only focus in this thread should be on velo, control, and timeline.
I mean timeline… apparently Tuesday
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/07/red-sox-select-michael-feliz-likely-to-activate-chris-sale-on-tuesday.html
Or Carson Smith. Over a year waiting for him to come back from Tommy John surgery, and then he throws his glove after a bad outing.
Even better example. And the kind of thing you could envision even more than punching something. I’m not too bothered by the optics of his outburst, although like others I’m finding his act kind of tiresome and performative. But a walking injury like him really should limit the risks he takes to the actual pitchers mound.
Maybe Fitzy should have started breaking shit earlier in his career. Breaking shit has zero to do with being competitive. It's the sign of a pathetic turd.
Seriously. Treating these guys with kiddy gloves because they're "special" and excusing toxic behavior as being "wired different" is horseshit. I've worked with guys like that in different industries (food/hospitality is a popular one for these types) - it's tiresome, disrespectful, and borderline-dangerous in some cases.
And everyone upthread saying this doesn't have an affect on the younger guys - bullshit. You're telling me that young pitchers like Walter or Seabold or German don't look up to Chris Fucking Sale? A guy who's excelled at the top of the highest level of their profession? I'm not saying that they're going to go out and start breaking shit immediately as a result of this, but to say that seeing stuff like this doesn't affect the way they'll deal with setbacks and failure - in the sport and outside of it - is completely disingenuous.
Ortiz smashing the phone was childish too (and stupid, and dangerous, and whatever else you want to call it). Of course it was. And I didn't suggest otherwise.
But, while we're comparing them, I'd note that Sale's behavior here is just another in a series of selfish and/or childish acts or omissions while Ortiz's phone smashing was much more of an aberration.
This thread is wild. Players destroying stuff in the clubhouse or dugout isn’t a rare occurrence, Raisel Iglesias wrecked the Reds dugout and threw a box of sunflower seeds across the field like a week ago. He didn’t get hurt, nor did he hurt anyone else, and he paid for the damages and dropped $6k on dinner for everyone. Who gives a shit that he smashed a picture and broke an already broken tv? I understand people don’t like Sale and want to find ways to criticize him, but this is a really dumb thing to get worked up about imo.
I think terms like toxic and dangerous are taking this a bit too far. Like @YTF , I’m increasingly finding his accountable, intense tough guy competitor act to be tired and phony. Particularly when it’s been backed up by so little noteworthy performance since his extension. But he didn’t hurt anybody, FFS. He smashed some shit in a clubhouse. Making him approximately the 1,000,000th guy in MLB history to do so.
Would have preferred he take one more start in Worcester, work on that control a little, but whatever
Normally I'd want Sale to have one more start in the minors too, but with 80% of the starting rotation out, and the kids from Worcester getting lit up like Christmas in July trees they may as well send Sale out there
Not to mention the added strain and potential overuse of a bullpen that already has concerns.
Not to pile on Ortiz in the slightest, as he is my favorite ever, but there was also the incident where he threw his bat and other shit on the field in the direction of the umps during a game in Anaheim where he got rung up on a call he didn't like from the HP ump that he was having issues with all night. He had a couple blow-ups in his time, but, as others have said, he was beloved, whereas Sale is not, for all the reasons listed and more.
Also the time he walked into someone else's press conference and started ranting about the scorer taking away an RBI...
It’s Groundhog Day! Wish I owned some rosary beads, or had any currency at all with the big fella/Sheila upstairs…
https://www.mlb.com/gameday/red-sox-vs-rays/2022/07/12/661877#game_state=preview,lock_state=preview,game_tab=,game=661877
https://www.mlb.com/gameday/red-sox-vs-rays/2022/07/12/661877#game_state=preview,lock_state=preview,game_tab=,game=661877
I expect Chris Sale to be a good major league pitcher the rest of the way. Not the old CHRIS SALE, but a good pitcher, and a help to this team. It was a shame to lose a game when Sale gave you five shutout innings though. Don't really want to waste those opportunities.