Chris Sale 2020 - TJ Bound and Down

jose melendez

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Jesus that's frustrating. I suppose the upside is that maybe he will be good again after this over, as opposed to just being in inevitable decline.
 

nvalvo

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If baseball loses a season, are all contracts pushed back a year? Or is everyone still paid like the season happened?
This is being negotiated now. What I’ve read suggests players would not receive service time for a complete washout (I.e. If the entire season is lost) but want any service time accrued in the event of a partial season to count for more. But nothing’s final.
 

NDame616

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This is being negotiated now. What I’ve read suggests players would not receive service time for a complete washout (I.e. If the entire season is lost) but want any service time accrued in the event of a partial season to count for more. But nothing’s final.
I guess I'm wondering how much longer we'd be on the hook for Sale and Evoldi....
 

BaseballJones

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Maybe this deserves its own thread, but we are in one of the worst (or should I say, most disappointing) stretches of sports that I can remember:

Gronk retires
Celtics tank in the playoffs
Bruins lose game 7 at home in the SCF
Red Sox suck for 2019
Patriots have dismal end of season, eliminated in the WC round after losing the bye
Betts traded
Bruins and Celtics - both with very promising seasons - see their season likely end because of Covid19
NCAA tournament cancelled
Brady leaves
Sale gets TJ surgery
Baseball season in jeopardy


That's four MAJOR stars (and fan favorites; Price used to be a star but was never a fan favorite here) gone. A legendary team sees its golden era end. Defending WS champs just go in the proverbial tank.

It's just been an awful stretch. And I say that knowing that we're spoiled because the Bruins and Celtics are still really good if/when those seasons ever resume. But still. Holy smokes.
 

PseuFighter

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I'm not saying this to be snarky, but -- given this is an elective surgery, would he have to wait until after the pandemic passes? I suppose he could also go to an orthopedic-only hospital (like HSS), but it will bad optics (imo) if he gets this done at a general hospital during this.
 

Kliq

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I'm assuming he will be getting it done by some big-bucks Tommy John super-specialist that all the top guys go to.
 

DadOfFenway

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I'm not saying this to be snarky, but -- given this is an elective surgery, would he have to wait until after the pandemic passes? I suppose he could also go to an orthopedic-only hospital (like HSS), but it will bad optics (imo) if he gets this done at a general hospital during this.
How long does the actual procedure take? Obviously a lot going on in the hospitals... but sure would be done in orthopedic hospital.
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
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Aug 21, 2006
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Get it done and see you next year. Really does it matter at this point? It’s his reality too. I feel bad for the guy, he is an ultimate competitor. What can you say or do?
 

Van Everyman

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Maybe this deserves its own thread, but we are in one of the worst (or should I say, most disappointing) stretches of sports that I can remember:

Gronk retires
Celtics tank in the playoffs
Bruins lose game 7 at home in the SCF
Red Sox suck for 2019
Patriots have dismal end of season, eliminated in the WC round after losing the bye
Betts traded
Bruins and Celtics - both with very promising seasons - see their season likely end because of Covid19
NCAA tournament cancelled
Brady leaves
Sale gets TJ surgery
Baseball season in jeopardy


That's four MAJOR stars (and fan favorites; Price used to be a star but was never a fan favorite here) gone. A legendary team sees its golden era end. Defending WS champs just go in the proverbial tank.

It's just been an awful stretch. And I say that knowing that we're spoiled because the Bruins and Celtics are still really good if/when those seasons ever resume. But still. Holy smokes.
Don't forget: Ortiz was almost killed.

But larger point, I'm not really that unhappy. As you say, we've been spoiled.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Dec 19, 2009
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Don't forget: Ortiz was almost killed.

But larger point, I'm not really that unhappy. As you say, we've been spoiled.
His survival was really the shining beacon for the last 15 months or so, with the 6th SB title a bit behind that (for Pats fans anyway).

I'll be sad if there is no baseball this year because baseball is awesome, but they are being wise about this. Sale getting the surgery really just makes any season we do get easier to handle because we won't be holding our breath every 5 starts.

But who takes his spot in the rotation? Will they even be able to address it before the start of any games that count, be that in a few weeks or a few months?
 

nattysez

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Maybe this deserves its own thread, but we are in one of the worst (or should I say, most disappointing) stretches of sports that I can remember:

Gronk retires
Celtics tank in the playoffs
Bruins lose game 7 at home in the SCF
Red Sox suck for 2019
Patriots have dismal end of season, eliminated in the WC round after losing the bye
Betts traded
Bruins and Celtics - both with very promising seasons - see their season likely end because of Covid19
NCAA tournament cancelled
Brady leaves
Sale gets TJ surgery
Baseball season in jeopardy


That's four MAJOR stars (and fan favorites; Price used to be a star but was never a fan favorite here) gone. A legendary team sees its golden era end. Defending WS champs just go in the proverbial tank.

It's just been an awful stretch. And I say that knowing that we're spoiled because the Bruins and Celtics are still really good if/when those seasons ever resume. But still. Holy smokes.
It feels like kharmic payback for all the winning. Like this, but worse: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-WhIpdqrNk
 

Average Reds

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18 months if all goes as planned right? That means September assuming he can have the surgery soon
Earliest I’ve ever heard is Billy Wagner, who returned approx. 12 months after his surgery. (And was traded to the Sox.)

My guess is that Sale is looking at a more normal time frame of 16-18 months, which means he’d be game ready sometime between late July- September.
 

Sprowl

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If Sale had TJ surgery when he was shut down last Summer, he'd be ready for the start of the new season (after the wave (May), in the middle of the plateau (August), before the second wave (October.

The flip side is that we may have gotten Verdugo, Wong, and Downs quite cheaply.
The Dodgers must be chagrined to have spent prospects and $27 million for a partial-year Mookie, but they still get three seasons of a partial-salary Price.

I'm assuming he will be getting it done by some big-bucks Tommy John super-specialist that all the top guys go to.
Are you saying that Dr Andrews doesn't do CoVid?
 

simplicio

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Apr 11, 2012
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I'm not saying this to be snarky, but -- given this is an elective surgery, would he have to wait until after the pandemic passes? I suppose he could also go to an orthopedic-only hospital (like HSS), but it will bad optics (imo) if he gets this done at a general hospital during this.
And if the pandemic takes 18 months to pass? As I mentioned, better to do it now before the hospitals are overwhelmed.
 

24redsox

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Nov 18, 2013
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Gee, they couldnt figure he needed TJ surgery in Sept like we all knew he did? Clueless docs and owners.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
Not sure, but I would guess that orthopedic hospitals are being pressed into a broader service.
That would depend on the location, wouldn't it? I don't think every metro area's healthcare system is slammed with the virus yet. For instance, Alabama (Andrews' home base) only has 46 cases so far according to the Johns Hopkins map. Arizona only has 27.

In that sense, simplicio may be right that now is likely to be better than a month or two from now, unless distancing works better than I dare to hope.
 

RedOctober3829

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Jul 19, 2005
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I'm not saying this to be snarky, but -- given this is an elective surgery, would he have to wait until after the pandemic passes? I suppose he could also go to an orthopedic-only hospital (like HSS), but it will bad optics (imo) if he gets this done at a general hospital during this.
FWIW, Giants pitcher Tyler Beede is having his TJ surgery tomorrow. So I'd think Sale would be able to get his.
 

Shaky Walton

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Nov 20, 2019
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Maybe this deserves its own thread, but we are in one of the worst (or should I say, most disappointing) stretches of sports that I can remember:

Gronk retires
Celtics tank in the playoffs
Bruins lose game 7 at home in the SCF
Red Sox suck for 2019
Patriots have dismal end of season, eliminated in the WC round after losing the bye
Betts traded
Bruins and Celtics - both with very promising seasons - see their season likely end because of Covid19
NCAA tournament cancelled
Brady leaves
Sale gets TJ surgery
Baseball season in jeopardy


That's four MAJOR stars (and fan favorites; Price used to be a star but was never a fan favorite here) gone. A legendary team sees its golden era end. Defending WS champs just go in the proverbial tank.

It's just been an awful stretch. And I say that knowing that we're spoiled because the Bruins and Celtics are still really good if/when those seasons ever resume. But still. Holy smokes.
What next? Locusts? Death of the First Born Males?

This feels like payback for all the awesome Boston sports fans have enjoyed for the last two decades. Though I would remove the NCAA tourney and even the baseball season, since they are not uniquely shitty for Boston/NE types.
 

Sox Puppet

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I hate to say this because I know it's not technically Sale's fault, but imagine if we had just taken that $29M/yr and used it to sweeten the pot for Mookie instead
 

Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
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Earliest I’ve ever heard is Billy Wagner, who returned approx. 12 months after his surgery. (And was traded to the Sox.)

My guess is that Sale is looking at a more normal time frame of 16-18 months, which means he’d be game ready sometime between late July- September.
Dinelson Lamet was pitching in the minors after 13 months and back in the majors after 15 months with improve velocity and a career best 33.6% strikeout rate.
 

InstaFace

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What next? Locusts? Death of the First Born Males?

This feels like payback for all the awesome Boston sports fans have enjoyed for the last two decades. Though I would remove the NCAA tourney and even the baseball season, since they are not uniquely shitty for Boston/NE types.
I could have died in peace a long time ago. If this is the first couple chapters of the Book of Job, we got a LONG way to go before any of us ought to be crying on the mountaintops asking why Yahweh has forsaken us. We ain't even lost any camels yet.

Mookie was gone anyway after this season, we just got a return for him, instead of him not being able to play for us anyway. Brady is 43 and the team wasn't going anywhere. Gronk was on the express train to Dain Bramage and managed to get off a few stops early, boo fucking hoo. I mean, the single biggest boston-specific shame in that entire list is the Stanley Cup loss, where I feel like we lost to a worse team (and the only other title loss I feel that way about is the Scottish Game, I'm no whiner). Plus the Blues absolutely were a bunch of cheap-shotting goons, so justice was not served. But the rest of it? If the holy sports retribution stops there, we are so far ahead of the game that we all better start creating a modern pantheon and making moulds for all the gold statues we're going to cast of all our idols from the last two decades, because good lord(s) do we owe some praise to a bunch of people. Kill the fatted calfs!
 

curly2

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Jul 8, 2003
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Well shit. Anyone smarter than me have a rough estimate when we’ll see him in 2021?
I'm smarter than very few people, but I think if he gets it done next week -- a big if given the state of the world -- a reasonable scenario would be a rehab assignment around Memorial Day, with him coming up a few weeks later as a multi-inning reliever the way David Price was at the end of 2017 as he builds arm strength back to hopefully start the last two months.
 

EricFeczko

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Apr 26, 2014
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Gee, they couldnt figure he needed TJ surgery in Sept like we all knew he did? Clueless docs and owners.
I suspect that the coronavirus expedited the surgery. Had no crisis hit, he'd probably try to come back this season.

Due to the coronavirus, his production might be zero anyways -- so if he wants to remain competitive, now is probably the best time to do so and rehab back.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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Gee, they couldnt figure he needed TJ surgery in Sept like we all knew he did? Clueless docs and owners.
I suspect that the coronavirus expedited the surgery. Had no crisis hit, he'd probably try to come back this season.

Due to the coronavirus, his production might be zero anyways -- so if he wants to remain competitive, now is probably the best time to do so and rehab back.
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with both of you here. To call the doctors and owners "clueless" is not at all fair - this isn't a completely black and white situation, and you're dealing with a human being here, not a piece of meat. You can tell a patient all you want that you think he'd be better off having a procedure done, but he's the one taking the risk with his own health and signing up for 18 months of rehab.

As for the coronavirus thing, I think that's more of a coincidence- I think he rested, ramped back up the throwing and when he started having pain again they all decided there was no avoiding the operative route.

2020 can get bent.
 

EricFeczko

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As for the coronavirus thing, I think that's more of a coincidence- I think he rested, ramped back up the throwing and when he started having pain again they all decided there was no avoiding the operative route.

2020 can get bent.
Appreciate the expert opinion on this :) It is certainly a silver lining, especially with a shortened (possibly non-existent) MLB season.

2020 can indeed get bent. I feel bad for Devers and worse for Mookie/Xander :(
 

Salem's Lot

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I'm going to go ahead and disagree with both of you here. To call the doctors and owners "clueless" is not at all fair - this isn't a completely black and white situation, and you're dealing with a human being here, not a piece of meat. You can tell a patient all you want that you think he'd be better off having a procedure done, but he's the one taking the risk with his own health and signing up for 18 months of rehab.
Thank you!

I don’t understand why people don’t get this. He didn’t want to have surgery. Most people don’t. The rehab sucks, there’s complications that can happen, and even if everything goes right there’s a risk that his elbow will never be the same.

The organization couldn’t make him have surgery. He had to decide to do that on his own.
 

NomarsFool

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Maybe when baseball comes back the batters will have to stand 6 feet away from the catcher, making the Red Sox rotation much more effective.
 

Earthbound64

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ookami7m

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Interesting note related on this - Only one pitcher who has ever had TJS has made it to the HoF. Sale would obviously be considered to be on that track and now is losing a year in his prime range due to Coronavirus and now TJ.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Of course, a good case could be made for John himself - based on stats alone, much less the surgery.
Fascinating career. He had never finished in the top 10 in the Cy Young voting before getting the surgery -- and then did so four times in the following five years. He's also one of only 10 pitchers in baseball history to pitch 1000 or more innings after age 40.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, even with allotments for everyone being stressed and cranky, I think that's enough.
 

Al Zarilla

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Maybe this deserves its own thread, but we are in one of the worst (or should I say, most disappointing) stretches of sports that I can remember:

Gronk retires
Celtics tank in the playoffs
Bruins lose game 7 at home in the SCF
Red Sox suck for 2019
Patriots have dismal end of season, eliminated in the WC round after losing the bye
Betts traded
Bruins and Celtics - both with very promising seasons - see their season likely end because of Covid19
NCAA tournament cancelled
Brady leaves
Sale gets TJ surgery
Baseball season in jeopardy


That's four MAJOR stars (and fan favorites; Price used to be a star but was never a fan favorite here) gone. A legendary team sees its golden era end. Defending WS champs just go in the proverbial tank.

It's just been an awful stretch. And I say that knowing that we're spoiled because the Bruins and Celtics are still really good if/when those seasons ever resume. But still. Holy smokes.
Get it all over with at once I guess is the silver lining? Also, the coronavirus tends to put sports in the background for a while, and my home state of California is stepping up to the plate for more of its share of that. And, not even an earthquake lately. Oh shit, I said it.
 

heavyde050

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Get it all over with at once I guess is the silver lining? Also, the coronavirus tends to put sports in the background for a while, and my home state of California is stepping up to the plate for more of its share of that. And, not even an earthquake lately. Oh shit, I said it.
Very well said. Though I do think there was a small earthquake outside San Jose the other day.