Chris Sale 2020 - TJ Bound and Down

NJ_Sox_Fan

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Really hope this isn’t a scenario where he avoids TJ surgery until June or so, then eventually gives in and gets it ruining his 2021 as well
 

Plympton91

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I assume they are trying to avoid surgery at all costs. And that will result in him finally deciding to have surgery around the all-star break ensuring he misses all of 2021, too.

We tried rest and rehab. It didn’t work.

And as for the criticisms of people playing armchair doctor, nobody gets a 3rd opinion if the first two opinions are “you don’t need surgery.” At least one of the first two is, or both are on the fence.
 

genoasalami

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The chances of him making a meaningful contribution in 2020 are slim to none. Maybe it all goes away with more rest. Then again, maybe he lasts 2/3 of an inning in June and then it's decided that TJ surgery is the only logical course of action. None of the realistic scenarios are good.
 

Salem's Lot

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I assume they are trying to avoid surgery at all costs. And that will result in him finally deciding to have surgery around the all-star break ensuring he misses all of 2021, too.

We tried rest and rehab. It didn’t work.

And as for the criticisms of people playing armchair doctor, nobody gets a 3rd opinion if the first two opinions are “you don’t need surgery.” At least one of the first two is, or both are on the fence.
Why is everyone so sure that it’s the team trying to avoid surgery at all costs, and not the guy that is actually getting cut?
 

24redsox

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I wish he would have the surgery and just get it over with already. It should of happened last Sept. Stupid team.
 

radsoxfan

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Just because Sale has elbow pain doesn't mean he needs TJ or that the UCL is even the issue. Lot of causes for elbow pain, it's not simply.... pitcher has elbow pain, pitcher gets TJ, pitcher is cured. The surgery is a big deal, and there is no assurance he ever comes back 100% after. Certainly you have to do it if you have to, but it's not to be taken lightly.

If 2 top guys are recommending no surgery for now, the good news is that his UCL honestly must look pretty good. Given the attempt at conservative treatment and persistent symptoms, they would probably be inclined to recommend surgery for a borderline case.

Obviously the worst case scenario is that he's dealing with this all year, ends up getting TJ late, and he's out for another year. The Red Sox know this too, so if they thought this was likely he would be getting surgery. Let's hope they're right.
 

joe dokes

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For those of you who don't know, radsox is a radiologist and has a pretty good idea about this medical type stuff.
IANAD, yet even I know it's difficult to perform surgery on someone who may not want surgery because they may not need surgery.
 

Harry Hooper

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Time for a compromise, do the surgery this week on his right elbow.

As noted above, the ligament could look fine at this point and there's some other issue (e.g., bone spurs) going on, or maybe there's no obvious cause of the discomfort yet. This will hopefully be sorted out shortly.
 

johnnywayback

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Maybe the reason they didn't do Tommy John is because his UCL is fine.


Jason Mastrodonato

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Red Sox say flexor strain for Chris Sale. Roenicke: “The UCL looks the same as the last image... doctors have advised him to wait another week before he starts throwing again. He’ll start playing catch again. If everything is good we’ll progress.”
 

RedOctober3829

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Red Sox ace Chris Sale has a flexor strain in his pitching arm and will be shut down from throwing for a week.

Red Sox manager Ron Roenicke updated Sale's status Thursday morning, telling reporters that an MRI showed no notable damage to the left-hander's elbow.

Sale underwent an MRI on Tuesday, and the results were examined by Red Sox doctors along with renowned surgeons Dr. James Andrews and Dr. Neal ElAttrache.

Roenicke said that neither Andrews nor ElAttrache recommended surgery for Sale's elbow.

"Doctors have advised him to wait another week before he starts throwing again," Roenicke said. "He'll start playing catch again. If everything is good, we'll progress."
 

donutogre

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I agree with everyone who has said that no one should take surgery lightly, and only do it when it is totally necessary. But, I have a hard time believing it's not going to be necessary in this case. I feel like we've seen this pattern with enough pitchers to know how it's going to end. Definitely not saying anyone should do anything differently here, but if Sale can make 25 starts this year I will be fairly shocked.
 

bakahump

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There is a reason doctors only practice the art of medicine.

Imagine how psyched we will be if they find something that can be resolved with day surgery and a weeks worth of rest.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I agree with everyone who has said that no one should take surgery lightly, and only do it when it is totally necessary. But, I have a hard time believing it's not going to be necessary in this case. I feel like we've seen this pattern with enough pitchers to know how it's going to end. Definitely not saying anyone should do anything differently here, but if Sale can make 25 starts this year I will be fairly shocked.
You don't think Andrews and ElAttrache know "this pattern" pretty well too? I'll defer to them - I assume if their diagnosis was "maybe you can get away with not having surgery but in all likelihood you'll need it in the end" Sale would just be getting the surgery now. The fact that he is not strongly suggests that the doctors think there is a good chance that Sale will never need it.
 

shaggydog2000

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You don't think Andrews and ElAttrache know "this pattern" pretty well too? I'll defer to them - I assume if their diagnosis was "maybe you can get away with not having surgery but in all likelihood you'll need it in the end" Sale would just be getting the surgery now. The fact that he is not strongly suggests that the doctors think there is a good chance that Sale will never need it.
Or they want to try this first either way, because with the variance in time on a TJ recovery 2-3 weeks makes no difference, and not getting the surgery saves you an enormous amount of time. Worth it either way.
 

Green Monster

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Maybe the reason they didn't do Tommy John is because his UCL is fine.


Jason Mastrodonato

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Red Sox say flexor strain for Chris Sale. Roenicke: “The UCL looks the same as the last image... doctors have advised him to wait another week before he starts throwing again. He’ll start playing catch again. If everything is good we’ll progress.”
This might be the case but reading between the lines ..."The UCL looks the same as the last image" would imply that the PRP injection did not result in any improvements. Obviously some damage existed at the time of the injection or it would be seen as necessary.
 

donutogre

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You don't think Andrews and ElAttrache know "this pattern" pretty well too? I'll defer to them - I assume if their diagnosis was "maybe you can get away with not having surgery but in all likelihood you'll need it in the end" Sale would just be getting the surgery now. The fact that he is not strongly suggests that the doctors think there is a good chance that Sale will never need it.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I am deferring to the doctors. If they say this is the plan, I am not someone to say otherwise. I guess my internal bias of feeling like these things "always" end in surgery is at play here, but if they don't think he needs it now and can get better with a few weeks of rest, that is a much better outcome.
 

ricopetro6

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Oct 25, 2013
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guy rests all off season has pain pitching a live BP. Can't see how this won't be an ongoing problem all year and how Sale will pitch effectively knowing that there is someone wrong.
Still hard to believe the gave him an extension after the way he finished 2018..makes zero sense
 

WifesASoxFan

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Flexor strains almost always are the precursor to TJ surgery. I wonder if the normal MRI isn't showing it, like with Severino on the Yankees. Didn't find the problem until it was dye contrasted
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Flexor strains almost always are the precursor to TJ surgery. I wonder if the normal MRI isn't showing it, like with Severino on the Yankees. Didn't find the problem until it was dye contrasted
This might be a question for @radsoxfan , but how often does the dye contrast option get done to prove conclusively, either way, the severity of this kind of injury? Is it a special request that has to be made?
 

Melrose Diner

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Didn't Price deal with a flexor issue within the last couple years? And we kind of just assumed he'd need it to but ended up being (relatively) fine. This absolutely seems more bleak but there's also some sort of possible, faint, burning out light at the end of a tunnel here
 

soxhop411

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Jesus is Sale tough on himself

View: https://twitter.com/byJulianMack/status/1235624238125469696

“@byJulianMack: Sale: I don’t think I’ve ever let anybody down this hard. Ever. And that sucks, honestly.

@PeteAbe: You didn’t do anything wrong.

Sale: Well, Try telling everybody that. I have an expectation level. That’s never changed and they put faith in me and I messed up
View: https://twitter.com/guerinaustin/status/1235590594879254528

“@guerinaustin: “I don’t think I’ve ever let anybody down this hard..ever… and that sucks.”

“Someone gives you something because they believe in you, they expect something from you and you don’t live up to that.. “

-Sale
#RedSox”

full quotes here^
 

RedOctober3829

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Jesus is Sale tough on himself

View: https://twitter.com/byJulianMack/status/1235624238125469696

“@byJulianMack: Sale: I don’t think I’ve ever let anybody down this hard. Ever. And that sucks, honestly.

@PeteAbe: You didn’t do anything wrong.

Sale: Well, Try telling everybody that. I have an expectation level. That’s never changed and they put faith in me and I messed up
View: https://twitter.com/guerinaustin/status/1235590594879254528

“@guerinaustin: “I don’t think I’ve ever let anybody down this hard..ever… and that sucks.”

“Someone gives you something because they believe in you, they expect something from you and you don’t live up to that.. “

-Sale
#RedSox”
In a world of me-first , lack of accountability in athletics Chris Sale is a breath of fresh air.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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You know, it's nice for him to give all those quotes and hold himself accountable and all that but it's starting to feel like a broken record. One can only hear someone lament their misfortunes so long before one starts to resent the sentiment altogether.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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This is an example of why maybe Sox fans shouldn't be in such a rush to assume Sale's elbow is toast. If it were, he'd have had the surgery already. If his UCL were torn, he wouldn't have needed three opinions. But it apparently isn't.
It's just frustrating that it seems like the worst case scenario in that it's causing him not to be very durable or to pitch full seasons, but it also cannot be fixed. Nobody wants to put their car in the shop for several months but if the alternative is that you can't rely on it ever you'd probably take the six months.

Or something. Analogies suck in this kind of case I guess.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Sick of the negative comments on a guy who has given his all for the Red Sox and was instrumental in the magic season of 2018.
And we're sick of him breaking down every single season, including that one, considering he just signed a ridiculous extension and hasn't pitched well in nearly a calendar year, longer if you look at just regular seasons. If we were going to be Pollyannas about every player to win a title, this board would get pretty boring pretty fast. it's a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done shit.
 

YTF

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And we're sick of him breaking down every single season, including that one, considering he just signed a ridiculous extension and hasn't pitched well in nearly a calendar year, longer if you look at just regular seasons. If we were going to be Pollyannas about every player to win a title, this board would get pretty boring pretty fast. it's a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done shit.
Ladies and gents, I give you SoSH's Chris Sale
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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And we're sick of him breaking down every single season, including that one, considering he just signed a ridiculous extension and hasn't pitched well in nearly a calendar year, longer if you look at just regular seasons. If we were going to be Pollyannas about every player to win a title, this board would get pretty boring pretty fast. it's a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done shit.
Boring > stupid.

The guy takes complete ownership for something out of his control and he’s lamenting his misfortune. The dude is passionate and would do anything to help the team. And that leads to resentment.
That’s just beyond the pale.
 

RedOctober3829

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And we're sick of him breaking down every single season, including that one, considering he just signed a ridiculous extension and hasn't pitched well in nearly a calendar year, longer if you look at just regular seasons. If we were going to be Pollyannas about every player to win a title, this board would get pretty boring pretty fast. it's a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done shit.
Oh for Christ sake. You really think he's actively trying to get hurt? No, he's just as mystified as the rest of us as to why he keeps having arm problems. He's more pissed off and angry about this than any of us are. And to criticize him for a "ridiculous extension" is ridiculous in of itself. Would you be turning down $145 million from your employer if offered? I'm going to assume no. It's an unfortunate situation that Sale and the Sox are in, but to criticize him for getting hurt is not the way to go about it.
 

YTF

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Can they hire Dombrowski again just to fire him again?
I'm very appreciative for the title, but the dude did pretty much exactly what people predicted (leaving the team worse off than when he inherited it) AND gave out one of the worst contracts in franchise history in the process, one that has already crippled this team for 2020 and cost them, at least in part, the best player they've had since who knows when, a guy who may not come back until his prime is gone, if ever.
They should have just made him the closer, because he can't pitch 6 innings consistently anymore. His delivery sucks, he's too thin, and every other guy who has ever had that combination has broken down around the same age or so. I cannot believe this franchise was so stupid.
Until he shows he can pitch well, consistently, and can even be 80% of what he was, it is, by far, the worst contract ever handed out. It's the inverse of the Ruth sale.
I don't even think it's close as it stands right now. Fortunately, or unfortunately, we have several more years to see if he can pull the nose up or if his pitching career winds up the same as that dude who built his own steam-powered rocket: sky high for a moment in time, then a quick descent and abrupt ending.
Are we already writing off Plawecki?
This might be a question for @radsoxfan , but how often does the dye contrast option get done to prove conclusively, either way, the severity of this kind of injury? Is it a special request that has to be made?
You know, it's nice for him to give all those quotes and hold himself accountable and all that but it's starting to feel like a broken record. One can only hear someone lament their misfortunes so long before one starts to resent the sentiment altogether.
And we're sick of him breaking down every single season, including that one, considering he just signed a ridiculous extension and hasn't pitched well in nearly a calendar year, longer if you look at just regular seasons. If we were going to be Pollyannas about every player to win a title, this board would get pretty boring pretty fast. it's a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done shit.
Speaking strictly for myself, it's not any individual post that drew my response, but the near total of your work here in this thread. Outside of the Plawecki and MRI questions
the rest was over the top, reactionary, fan boy, game thread slop. We all have those type posts at times, but IMO the bulk of your posts in this thread were shit.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

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Speaking strictly for myself, it's not any individual post that drew my response, but the near total of your work here in this thread. Outside of the Plawecki and MRI questions
the rest was over the top, reactionary, fan boy, game thread slop. We all have those type posts at times, but IMO the bulk of your posts in this thread were shit.
Seconded. Just about the worst kind of reactionary garbage.