Chris Bosh: overpaid or just disappointing?

Kliq

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Just looking at the box score for the Pacers/Heat game and noticed two things:
 
1. Chris Bosh played 32 minutes and got three rebounds. Miami didn't play Haslem or Anthony, which means the only other big men Miami played were Chris Andersen and Rashard Lewis. Lebron grabbed 14 rebounds, but I feel that is more out of nobody else competing with him for rebounds. I know we always talk about Joe Johnson and Gay as being overpaid, but Bosh has one of the worst contracts in the league. No way he is a max player after his deal runs out. He is only averaging 5.8 boards a game.
 
2. Miami only lost by 6, but Wade finished with a +/- of -18. -18!!! No one else on Miami finished with a +/- of lower then -6. Wade makes his fair share of brilliant defensive plays, but I find him to ruin those by constantly slacking back on defense to complain to the referee about a foul. He always has pretty decent defensive metric stats, but he never seems to pass the eye test for me. I think he could be so much better on the defensive end if he hustled and stopped with the bullshit.
 

bowiac

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In large part, Bosh is only averaging 5.8 rebounds per game because he's only playing 28 minutes a game, which I'd assume is a coaching decision rather than anything else. By any metric I see, he remains an excellent player other than his minutes being down.
 
Bosh may plausibly be overpaid, but he's not among the top 20 most overpaid players in the league.
 

Blacken

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In large part, Bosh is averaging 5.8 rebounds a game because that's not all that out of the ordinary for somebody who's getting the rebounding chances he is. He isn't a great rebounder, but he's a good rebounder while providing very good defense and a lot of scoring in a limited role within the offense.

Bosh is in the vicinity of 9.7 potential rebounds a game while playing mostly far from the basket and gets 5.8 of them - 60.1%. He also plays on a team with a very, very good rebounder (given his chances) in LeBron James (6.5 RPG, 72.7% rebounds/chances); available data doesn't suggest if those rebounds are taking away from Bosh's, but defensive rebounds are largely a crapshoot--especially in a system, like Miami's, where most of the team collapses in for defensive rebounds. Meanwhile, everyone's favorite big, Brook Lopez, is in the vicinity of 12.1 and gets 6.1 in two more minutes per game - 49.1%. Nobody complains about Lopez's worth. And, sure, to forestall the inevitable, Lopez is a better scorer--in his current system, where he is a primary scoring option--but not all that much even there.

This isn't a criticism of Lopez. I like him. But criticizing Bosh for doing his job is stupid--and it's the really sneaky-evil kind of stupid because that "conventional wisdom" mindset leads to NBA players doing team-negative but individual-positive things. And Bosh's offensive game is so much better than he gets credit for due to the system in which he plays. If he left Miami for Charlotte, a Jefferson/Bosh frontcourt would put up 40 points a game between them.
 

Kliq

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Blacken said:
In large part, Bosh is averaging 5.8 rebounds a game because that's not all that out of the ordinary for somebody who's getting the rebounding chances he is. He isn't a great rebounder, but he's a good rebounder while providing very good defense and a lot of scoring in a limited role within the offense.

Bosh is in the vicinity of 9.7 potential rebounds a game while playing mostly far from the basket and gets 5.8 of them - 60.1%. He also plays on a team with a very, very good rebounder (given his chances) in LeBron James (6.5 RPG, 72.7% rebounds/chances); available data doesn't suggest if those rebounds are taking away from Bosh's, but defensive rebounds are largely a crapshoot--especially in a system, like Miami's, where most of the team collapses in for defensive rebounds. Meanwhile, everyone's favorite big, Brook Lopez, is in the vicinity of 12.1 and gets 6.1 in two more minutes per game - 49.1%. Nobody complains about Lopez's worth. And, sure, to forestall the inevitable, Lopez is a better scorer--in his current system, where he is a primary scoring option--but not all that much even there.

This isn't a criticism of Lopez. I like him. But criticizing Bosh for doing his job is stupid--and it's the really sneaky-evil kind of stupid because that "conventional wisdom" mindset leads to NBA players doing team-negative but individual-positive things. And Bosh's offensive game is so much better than he gets credit for due to the system in which he plays. If he left Miami for Charlotte, a Jefferson/Bosh frontcourt would put up 40 points a game between them.
 
You can make the case that Bosh is doing everything he is supposed to do within his system, which is fine, but that doesn't mean he is still not over-paid. He is basically a glorified role player in Miami, and he is making 19 this year, the 8th most in the league. He might be able to average 20-10 a night if he was the focus of the offense like he was in Toronto, but he isn't. Miami could definitley use that 19 million and equal Bosh's 14-6/okay defense with other players, and probably be better off for it. Bosh could be a franchise player, but Miami does not use him like a franchise player, which means that he is way overpaid.
 

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Kliq said:
 
You can make the case that Bosh is doing everything he is supposed to do within his system, which is fine, but that doesn't mean he is still not over-paid. He is basically a glorified role player in Miami, and he is making 19 this year, the 8th most in the league. He might be able to average 20-10 a night if he was the focus of the offense like he was in Toronto, but he isn't. Miami could definitley use that 19 million and equal Bosh's 14-6/okay defense with other players, and probably be better off for it. Bosh could be a franchise player, but Miami does not use him like a franchise player, which means that he is way overpaid.
 
I think Bosh's defense is much better than he's given credit for. Since signing with Miami, he's improved on that end a lot, and has turned himself into a very active defender who uses his quickness and length well. He's also now developed a 3 point shot, and can function as a true stretch 4/5, which is a really valuable thing. He'd easily get a max contract on the open market, and while it's true that he's "just a role player" in Miami, he's getting paid what the market dictates for a player of his caliber.
 

Kliq

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
I think Bosh's defense is much better than he's given credit for. Since signing with Miami, he's improved on that end a lot, and has turned himself into a very active defender who uses his quickness and length well. He's also now developed a 3 point shot, and can function as a true stretch 4/5, which is a really valuable thing. He'd easily get a max contract on the open market, and while it's true that he's "just a role player" in Miami, he's getting paid what the market dictates for a player of his caliber.
 
I personally don't think he is a max player, but that doesn't mean he couldn't get a max contract. He is kind of a bad 3 point shooter. He shot 28% last year, although he is up to 34% so far this year.
 
I don't know how relevent this is, but Miami needs Bosh to be their best interior defender. He is being paid to be an elite big man, but he cannot deal with true centers. Hibbert eats him alive, and we will see this in the bound-to-be awesome Ind/Mia series. Lebron and Wade will habe their hands full, and Miami has literally nobody to guard Hibbert other than Bosh. I think Bosh is a nice defensive player against other quick big men, but he can't bang with guys like Hibbert, West, Noah and Boozer, which is Miami's biggest weakness.
 

Blacken

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Kliq said:
You can make the case that Bosh is doing everything he is supposed to do within his system, which is fine, but that doesn't mean he is still not over-paid. He is basically a glorified role player in Miami, and he is making 19 this year, the 8th most in the league. He might be able to average 20-10 a night if he was the focus of the offense like he was in Toronto, but he isn't. Miami could definitley use that 19 million and equal Bosh's 14-6/okay defense with other players, and probably be better off for it. Bosh could be a franchise player, but Miami does not use him like a franchise player, which means that he is way overpaid.
You are significantly underrating Bosh's defense and significantly overrating the marginal impact of Bosh's contract. And, when necessary, Bosh has a habit of stepping up and doing his thing on nights Wade is off (more and more as he ages). He plugs holes more effectively than a "role player" would; he's at least above average in every respect except three-point shooting and teams do still have to guard him if he drifts to the perimeter.

As far as the Pacers go, Bosh is certainly going to struggle--the Pacers are one of few teams with a real center in the league these days. But he isn't going to be the only one defending Hibbert; they also have Haslem (who's getting old, but he can give you a couple decent defensive stretches) and Andersen (who's got the size to at least slow Hibbert down). Their lack of a true center (outside of Oden--who's been a DNP the entire season thus far, but given Miami's management I would not assume that means he sucks, it may be a "wait for later" thing with him) is going to be an issue there, for sure, but it's not like it's all Bosh all the time. Plus, if they need to put a Hibbert fire out right now, there's always LeBron. And he gives up four inches, but I don't think that'd stop him if Spoelstra went "stop that man for two minutes". Hibbert will score in the playoffs, but he's still a #2 option (at best) and from a defensive perspective I love having a major scoring option be a post-up big man because his possessions will be longer and thus reduce the number of possessions in the game.

Bosh is a max player. Most of the "names" in the league are. It's an artifact of having a max contract in the first place; it caps their effective value way too low.
 

Kliq

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Blacken said:
You are significantly underrating Bosh's defense and significantly overrating the marginal impact of Bosh's contract. And, when necessary, Bosh has a habit of stepping up and doing his thing on nights Wade is off (more and more as he ages). He plugs holes more effectively than a "role player" would; he's at least above average in every respect except three-point shooting and teams do still have to guard him if he drifts to the perimeter.

As far as the Pacers go, Bosh is certainly going to struggle--the Pacers are one of few teams with a real center in the league these days. But he isn't going to be the only one defending Hibbert; they also have Haslem (who's getting old, but he can give you a couple decent defensive stretches) and Andersen (who's got the size to at least slow Hibbert down). Their lack of a true center (outside of Oden--who's been a DNP the entire season thus far, but given Miami's management I would not assume that means he sucks, it may be a "wait for later" thing with him) is going to be an issue there, for sure, but it's not like it's all Bosh all the time. Plus, if they need to put a Hibbert fire out right now, there's always LeBron. And he gives up four inches, but I don't think that'd stop him if Spoelstra went "stop that man for two minutes". Hibbert will score in the playoffs, but he's still a #2 option (at best) and from a defensive perspective I love having a major scoring option be a post-up big man because his possessions will be longer and thus reduce the number of possessions in the game.

Bosh is a max player. Most of the "names" in the league are. It's an artifact of having a max contract in the first place; it caps their effective value way too low.
 
You make some good points. I still think that it is possible that Miami could have spent that money better elsewhere (would you rather have David West and Paul Millsap or Chris Bosh?) and that if my starting Center is making $19.5, I would like him to be able to at least defend his position. I know their are not a lot of true Centers right now, but there is a great crop of young big men that I think are going to have a big impact on how teams play small-ball.
 
Since we are talking about Hibbert, that gives me the excuse to bring up the Giant Roy Hibbert photo. I know you guys have probably scene this but look at how huge Hibbert is, it's like he took super-soldier serum or something. That is Tim Duncan to his right btw.
 
 

Blacken

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David West and Paul Millsap weren't available when Bosh signed, though. And, really, given the way Miami plays I'd be loath to change anything until I know it's not going to work. When LeBron can go plaid at the drop of a hat, you can ignore a lot of holes.
 

Kliq

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West and Millsap were just two good players who salaries bascially equal Bosh's, I just used that as an example of getting two quality players as opposed to Bosh at the max.
 
Lebron is the most versatile defender since Pippen, but he can't realistically guard Hibbert. If he could, Hibbert wouldn't have been anihilating Miami in that series last year.
 

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Broken out from the December game thread...
 
***
 
I have watched Bosh play since he first joined the Raptors, and he has big-time scoring talent, when he's on a team that needs scoring. He's got range on the face-up jumper, he can drive with either hand, and he has the length and athleticism to convert around the rim.
 
Two things he doesn't have: the skills of a defensive anchor, or the determination, bulk and blocking-out skills of a defensive rebounder. He is completely miscast as the third wheel on the Lebron-Dwyane bicycle. It's what comes of star players deciding who they want to play with, instead of having a GM assemble a complementary team.
 

Blacken

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Agreed completely. He's not the optimal guy in that system. But he is Good Enough at those things to not embarrass them, and I think Riley and Spoelstra have done a pretty remarkable job of making it work effectively (and it's not all LeBron).

LeBron could have picked a much worse third wheel.
 

mandro ramtinez

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Bosh's contract has run 3 years so far and in year 2, he was absolutely essential to the Heat surviving the ECF against the C's. The Heat went from vulnerable to clear favorites when he came back from injury in that series. Being that essential to a title winning team justifies the contract in my mind even without any other contributions. And Bosh contributed quite a bit to both the '11 and '13 teams. Would you say Ray Allen was not worth the max in 2010 when he only averaged 16.7 points, given that scoring was the main skill he delivered?
 

bowiac

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Sprowl said:
Two things he doesn't have: the skills of a defensive anchor, or the determination, bulk and blocking-out skills of a defensive rebounder. He is completely miscast as the third wheel on the Lebron-Dwyane bicycle. It's what comes of star players deciding who they want to play with, instead of having a GM assemble a complementary team.
I think it's more like that's what you get when those are the guys who are available. It's not like Tyson Chandler was a free agent.
 

TroyOLeary

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You all are severely underrating Bosh, or at least his importance to Miami's success.
 
They need a big who offensively can space the floor and shoot well from 16-24 feet.  On defense they need one who is quick and athletic enough to fit their blitzing, frenetic scheme.
 
As to the former, Bosh is elite not simply among big men, but among everyone.  Of guys who took 200+ FGA from 16-24 feet last season, Bosh was first in FG% at 53% (by a pretty significant margin too, Nowitzki was 2nd at 50%).  And he takes a ton of those shots, 328 last year, which was 13th in the NBA.  He's fallen off a bit this year, shooting only 44% from that range, and he was only 41.1% in 2011-12, so maybe last year was an anomaly, but still, he was incredible last year.
 
As to the latter, Bosh isn't a perfect defender, but his athleticism allows him to at least play Miami's style, which most other big men couldn't do.
 
Besides maybe Ibaka, what other big man fits Miami's style better?  In terms of guys like Hibbert or Chandler, who are unquestionably great defensively, Miami could probably build a different sort of scheme around them and be really successful.  But they've won two straight championships using the current scheme, so I find it hard to really fault Bosh or his fit.
 

mandro ramtinez

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TroyOLeary said:
You all are severely underrating Bosh, or at least his importance to Miami's success.
 
They need a big who offensively can space the floor and shoot well from 16-24 feet.  On defense they need one who is quick and athletic enough to fit their blitzing, frenetic scheme.
 
As to the former, Bosh is elite not simply among big men, but among everyone.  Of guys who took 200+ FGA from 16-24 feet last season, Bosh was first in FG% at 53% (by a pretty significant margin too, Nowitzki was 2nd at 50%).  And he takes a ton of those shots, 328 last year, which was 13th in the NBA.  He's fallen off a bit this year, shooting only 44% from that range, and he was only 41.1% in 2011-12, so maybe last year was an anomaly, but still, he was incredible last year.
 
As to the latter, Bosh isn't a perfect defender, but his athleticism allows him to at least play Miami's style, which most other big men couldn't do.
 
Besides maybe Ibaka, what other big man fits Miami's style better?  In terms of guys like Hibbert or Chandler, who are unquestionably great defensively, Miami could probably build a different sort of scheme around them and be really successful.  But they've won two straight championships using the current scheme, so I find it hard to really fault Bosh or his fit.
Who "all"?  Just about everyone in this thread disagrees with the premise that Bosh is either overpaid or disappointing.  
 

Euclis20

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BigSoxFan said:
Bosh is lucky that LeBron/Wade saved him from being the past decade's Shareef Abdur-Rahim.
 
Don't know how vague of a shot this was meant to be, but Bosh was a solidly better player in Toronto than Abdur-Rahim was at the same age, also playing for lousy teams:
 
Bosh age 20-25:  21.7 points, 9.7 rebounds, 2.4 assists, .8 steals, 1.1 blocks, 2.3 turnovers, .495 FG%, .803 FT%
Abdur-Rahim age 20-25:  20.9 points, 8.3 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 1.0 blocks, 3.1 turnovers, .463 FG%, .801 FT%
 
Counting stats are similar, but Bosh was much more efficient, summed up in the difference in PER (Bosh was 22.2, Abdur-Rahim was 19.7).  Abdur-Rahim also made just 1 all star team his entire career...Bosh made the all star team in each of his last 5 seasons in Toronto).  Bosh was also a significantly better defensive player, both anecdotally and statistically.
 

Tony C

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Sprowl said:
... He is completely miscast as the third wheel on the Lebron-Dwyane bicycle. It's what comes of star players deciding who they want to play with, instead of having a GM assemble a complementary team.
 
What? You make it sound like the Heat's star players and/or GM made some sort of mistake. I don't know if it was Riley or James-Wade-Bosh who made the decision (presumably all of them), but 2 rings in a row indicates they got what they wanted. Bosh has been particularly strong, by the way, in the playoffs. Like it or not, those stars have been complementary -- there is no necessary contradiction.
 

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Tony C said:
 
What? You make it sound like the Heat's star players and/or GM made some sort of mistake. I don't know if it was Riley or James-Wade-Bosh who made the decision (presumably all of them), but 2 rings in a row indicates they got what they wanted. Bosh has been particularly strong, by the way, in the playoffs. Like it or not, those stars have been complementary -- there is no necessary contradiction.
 
The word in Toronto when Bosh signed with the Heat was that Wade recruited James and Bosh: they were pals and wanted to play together. No team can accommodate more than 3 maximum contracts, so that third slot is not available for a talent that would mesh better with James and Wade.
 
Bosh's talents are wasted on the Heat. His offensive game has deteriorated, he doesn't get many shots, and he has become a timid player. He's got a max contract and several rings, so perhaps he has what he wanted, but I think he is both overpaid and a disappointment. It's a different scenario from the Jordan-Pippen-Rodman Bulls: their talents meshed because Pippen was an all-around playmaker and Rodman a beast on the boards. Jordan could shoot all he wanted without diminishing their accomplishments.
 
Lebron James is dominant enough that whatever team he signed with would have been in line for a few rings -- even if he stayed in Cleveland, his team would have made it through the conference a few times. The Heat are less than the sum of their parts.
 

Euclis20

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Sprowl said:
 
The word in Toronto when Bosh signed with the Heat was that Wade recruited James and Bosh: they were pals and wanted to play together. No team can accommodate more than 3 maximum contracts, so that third slot is not available for a talent that would mesh better with James and Wade.
 
Bosh's talents are wasted on the Heat. His offensive game has deteriorated, he doesn't get many shots, and he has become a timid player. He's got a max contract and several rings, so perhaps he has what he wanted, but I think he is both overpaid and a disappointment. It's a different scenario from the Jordan-Pippen-Rodman Bulls: their talents meshed because Pippen was an all-around playmaker and Rodman a beast on the boards. Jordan could shoot all he wanted without diminishing their accomplishments.
 
Lebron James is dominant enough that whatever team he signed with would have been in line for a few rings -- even if he stayed in Cleveland, his team would have made it through the conference a few times. The Heat are less than the sum of their parts.
 
I don't disagree that Bosh looks like a bit of an awkward fit...At the end of the day though, I can't see Bosh being replaced with anyone else in the league, and the Heat actually being more successful than they are now.  Rodman was pretty unique...there aren't a whole lot of future HOF'ers who don't need to touch the ball, ever.
 
If not Bosh, who would be a good 3rd star (or type of star) to play with Wade and LeBron?  Certainly not a top point guard, who's ability would be wasted playing next to LeBron, who's playmaking is as good as just any pg in the game.  If it's a big man, it needs to be one with 3 point, or near 3 point range, because with the slashing and cutting ability of LeBron/Wade, the paint needs to be relatively empty.  What all star level player suits them better?
 
*edit-I'm not sure it's possible to put together 3 all stars and not have someone's talents wasted to a certain degree.  The talents of the recent Celtic's big three meshed about as well can be imagined, but it's hard to argue Ray Allen (who dropped from 26 ppg in Seattle to 17 ppg in Boston) didn't suffer statistically as a result.  He was always a phenomenal shooter, but he was also an excellent slasher and playmaker (he and Pierce had identical assist numbers heading into the 07-08 season), and the latter talents never really showed up in Boston.
 

Euclis20

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BigSoxFan said:
My point was a team with Bosh as the centerpiece failed just as badly as the Grizzlies with Abdur-Rahim as the centerpiece. Bosh was the better player but he fell short of being a true franchise player. Had he stayed in Toronto, his prime would have come and gone without anyone giving two shits. Also, comparing all-star appearances from players in different years and leagues doesn't prove much of anything.

With all that said, he's a perfect fit in Miami as a 2nd or 3rd option. Basically, I think he's a great Robin but a shitty Batman.
 
The knock on Abdur-Rahim is greater than "he was the centerpiece of a bad team."  He put up good numbers on a bad team; Bosh was a good player on a bad team.  Maybe it's a semantic difference, but it is a difference.  On top of that, Abdur-Rahim's teams were an order of magnitude worse than Bosh's.  From age 21-25, Bosh's teams had an average record of 38-44 and made the playoffs twice; Abdur-Rahim's teams had an average record of 22-60 (pro-rating out the strike shortened 98-99 season), never coming remotely close to the postseason (highest finish was 11th in the conference).
 
In another year or two, is Kevin Love this generation's Abdur-Rahim? 
 

Tony C

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um...no. Kevin Love is a great player. Much closer to Bosh (but better). Simmons' "trades that should happen but won't" have him going to the Clippers for Blake Griffin. That really should happen for both teams, and would make the Clippers and actual contender for a title imho.
 
Sprowl said:
 
The word in Toronto when Bosh signed with the Heat was that Wade recruited James and Bosh: they were pals and wanted to play together. No team can accommodate more than 3 maximum contracts, so that third slot is not available for a talent that would mesh better with James and Wade.
 
Bosh's talents are wasted on the Heat. His offensive game has deteriorated, he doesn't get many shots, and he has become a timid player. He's got a max contract and several rings, so perhaps he has what he wanted, but I think he is both overpaid and a disappointment. It's a different scenario from the Jordan-Pippen-Rodman Bulls: their talents meshed because Pippen was an all-around playmaker and Rodman a beast on the boards. Jordan could shoot all he wanted without diminishing their accomplishments.
 
Lebron James is dominant enough that whatever team he signed with would have been in line for a few rings -- even if he stayed in Cleveland, his team would have made it through the conference a few times. The Heat are less than the sum of their parts.
 
I am straining to understand the logic here.
 
1: by saying his talent is wasted I guess you mean to say he could be a bigger individual star elsewhere, and I suppose that's true. But his talents having been wasted in terms of the goal of winning championships -- your original point was that the Heat were not constructed as a complementary team, but clearly that contradicts Bosh's willingness to sublimate being an alpha dog for a Raptors-like team. 
 
2: Lebron is obviously the dominant player, but he would be with anyone else in the league because he's head and shoulders better than anyone else.To say any of his teams would be in line for rings is true, but would they have won those rings without Bosh? Both were real battles and Bosh was absolutely key to winning them. Would they have won more (3 rather than 2) with a Millsap type? Doubtful.
 
3: I guess I just don't understand how a repeat champion can be less than the sum of its parts. Lebron is great. Bosh is a star. Wade still has flashes, but is the 3rd of the their big 3 and then they have role players. The Spurs matched up nicely talent-wise as did the Thunder. The Heat have accomplished as much as could be expected with their talent.
 

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Tony C said:
 
3: I guess I just don't understand how a repeat champion can be less than the sum of its parts. Lebron is great. Bosh is a star. Wade still has flashes, but is the 3rd of the their big 3 and then they have role players. The Spurs matched up nicely talent-wise as did the Thunder. The Heat have accomplished as much as could be expected with their talent.
 
Wow, you've got Wade slotted in as the 3rd of their big 3?  I think Wade is #2, and it's not close.  
 
Going forward because of Wade's knees, who knows, maybe.  But over the past 3 seasons, it's Lebron >> Wade >> Bosh > the rest of the junk on their roster.
 

Devizier

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radsoxfan said:
 
Wow, you've got Wade slotted in as the 3rd of their big 3?  I think Wade is #2, and it's not close.  
 
Going forward because of Wade's knees, who knows, maybe.  But over the past 3 seasons, it's Lebron >> Wade >> Bosh > the rest of the junk on their roster.
 
You really think Wade is ">>" compared to Bosh? Maybe when they first assembled the big three...
 

radsoxfan

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Devizier said:
 
You really think Wade is ">>" compared to Bosh? Maybe when they first assembled the big three...
 
Well the # of >> is debatable I guess, but I think Wade has been significantly better than Bosh.  I don't think it's particularly close. The gap may be closing due to Wade's injuries, but I still think Wade is better. Bosh is a nice 3rd piece, but nothing more.  Certainly not a star. 
 
PER is of course imperfect, but I'd be curious to hear the argument as to why it overrates Wade significantly and underrates Bosh significantly to make Bosh the Heat's #2 player for the past 2 championships.
 
2013-2014
James: 28.9
Wade: 20.9
Bosh: 17.7
 
2012-2013
James: 31.7
Wade: 24.0
Bosh: 20.1
 
2011-2012
James: 30.8
Wade: 26.4
Bosh: 18.9
 
2010-2011
James: 27.3
Wade: 25.7
Bosh: 19.4
 

southshoresoxfan

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Was reading this thread until I saw Kevin Love compared to Shariff Abdur-Rahim.
 
K-Love had 5 games this season of 25pts 15rbs 5 assists...
 
Rest of the NBA has zero.
 
Top 5 player IMO.
 

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PER isn't really informative here; it's going to overvalue the contributions of players who "consume" a lot of possessions and only imperfectly model how effectively they are doing this. A good example would be Demarcus Cousins, who has an eye-popping >26 PER this year, and an even more astounding 35% USG. Yet his oRTG is decidedly pedestrian, largely on account of his turnovers and merely average scoring efficiency.
 
I prefer Kubatko's (basketball-reference) win shares to PER, although it has plenty of problems, too. One of the strengths of WS is that it attempts to incorporate defensive contributions. An interesting test case of the two numbers is Bosh himself.
 
In his final season in Toronto, Bosh had gaudy numbers (24 PPG / 11 RPG / 2.4 APG) on a pretty mediocre (40-42) squad. His PER was 25 -- a career high.
 
His first season in Miami, his role changes. He's asked to space the floor more, and plays more as a complementary player. His numbers tick down across the board. His PER collapses to just over 19.
 
In the same span, Bosh's win shares tick up from 9.6 to 10.3. In other words, he became a (slightly) better player in the transition. This is largely due to his improved defense, and playing in Miami's system will do that. But that change is not entirely due to James -- Bosh had to have the agility to play in an aggressive defensive scheme. One example of this is blitzing on pick and rolls, something that Bosh is very good at, and a lot of bigs aren't. If people recall from the Brad Stevens interview in Grantland, he had to forego blitzing because his bigs can't really do it. Another thing about the Miami defense is that it doesn't work for everyone. Playing in Miami didn't convert Eddy Curry into a credible defensive player (among others).
 
All said, I think the (stable) picture painted by win shares makes a lot more sense for an elite player going between his age 25 and 26 seasons.
 
Coming back to Wade; I thought, until some point in the middle of last season, that (healthy) Wade was pretty clearly the second best player on Miami. And I still think that for the period until that point. But Wade's getting older, and his efficiency has ticked down across the board. I think Bosh surpassed him (slightly) by last year's playoffs, and the rank order has held since. Given their ages and playing styles, I'd probably be pretty comfortable betting on Bosh going forward, too.
 
 

radsoxfan

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PER is imperfect, though I don't think in this case it's imperfect enough to make up for the difference in those two.
 
I don't think we're really disagreeing much, as going forward and considering Wade's knees, I'd probably take Bosh too.  I was replying to a quote in reference to the past 2 championship teams calling Bosh a star and Wade the #3 player on the team.
 
If Tony C was talking about going forward from this point, then I misunderstood. But he seemed to be talking in the context of the previous titles.
 
To be more precise, I'd say
 
2011-2012: Wade>>Bosh
2012-2013: Wade>Bosh
2013-2014: Jury still out, but possible Wade = Bosh
 

Euclis20

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Tony C said:
um...no. Kevin Love is a great player. Much closer to Bosh (but better). Simmons' "trades that should happen but won't" have him going to the Clippers for Blake Griffin. That really should happen for both teams, and would make the Clippers and actual contender for a title imho.
 
southshoresoxfan said:
Was reading this thread until I saw Kevin Love compared to Shariff Abdur-Rahim.
 
K-Love had 5 games this season of 25pts 15rbs 5 assists...
 
Rest of the NBA has zero.
 
Top 5 player IMO.
 
My post was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.  Early in the thread, a poster compared Bosh to Abdur-Rahim, with the rationale being that both were centerpiece's of "bad" teams for years and years.  By that same logic, Kevin Love is on his way to being the next Abdur-Rahim (centerpiece of a bad team for years and years). 
 
I do not agree with that logic.  Bosh >> Abdur-Rahim.  Love >>>> Abdur-Rahim.
 

Euclis20

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It was, and this will be my last post on it.  Defending Bosh (who I'm not fond of) isn't something I enjoy doing anyway.  Mostly, I thought very little of Abdur-Rahim's abilities, and any comparison between him and an actual all-star isn't one worth making.
 

Tony C

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radsoxfan said:
 
 
If Tony C was talking about going forward from this point, then I misunderstood. But he seemed to be talking in the context of the previous titles.
 
To be more precise, I'd say
 
2011-2012: Wade>>Bosh
2012-2013: Wade>Bosh
2013-2014: Jury still out, but possible Wade = Bosh
 
I wasn't thinking much about it all, just sort of a throwaway line, but Devizier's post more than sums up what I think. Certainly agree that Wade was better than Bosh. I don't think he is any more, as of (more or less) the 2nd half of last season. And for substantiating that Devizier's post has more depth than anything I can add.
 

radsoxfan

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Devizier said:
 
 
Coming back to Wade; I thought, until some point in the middle of last season, that (healthy) Wade was pretty clearly the second best player on Miami. And I still think that for the period until that point. But Wade's getting older, and his efficiency has ticked down across the board. I think Bosh surpassed him (slightly) by last year's playoffs, and the rank order has held since. Given their ages and playing styles, I'd probably be pretty comfortable betting on Bosh going forward, too.
 
 
Also, just to complete the point, using your preferred win shares, and accounting for minutes played.
 
WS/48 last 3 years, starting with the first year together in Miami
 
Wade:
.218
.227
.192
 
Bosh:
.177
.165
.175
 
I don't have the the breakdown by month, so maybe there really as some crossover point midway through last season.  But I think Wade has been their second best player pretty clearly up until this year. The crossover point very well may be happening right now though (due to Wade declining, not Bosh improving), so we're not that far off in our opinions.