Most Celtic fans have given up on Carsen Edwards? Ok, then.
Is that based on a polling of EEI listeners or something?
Is that based on a polling of EEI listeners or something?
Choose Your Own Adventure: Celtics 2020 Offseason
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
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I know the consensus is that they need to add a veteran presence and secondary scorer to help take pressure off Brown and Tatum, but on the other hand if I'm Danny, I'm starting to question things at some point if I'm now on my third go-around on that, having added first Kyrie and now Kemba/Hayward and having the team flame out both times. Jaylen and Jayson are both allegedly worthy max contract guys, how much firepower do they need around them? I think they just need to develop and play better.
It's sort of like the RJ Hunter deal. When you're a one-dimensional player and you haven't shown the ability for that one dimension to translate at the NBA level, teams just move on to the next guy. He has enough of a pedigree where I'm sure he'll get another chance (either Boston or elsewhere), but he needs to knock down shots at a healthy clip or he's a total liability.
You are taking issue with my language and you are correct to hammer me on it. Please replace *most* with *some* though I doubt you'd find many people who care at all about Carsen Edwards. Maybe a better way to put it is that Carsen Edwards isn't on many Celtics fans radars? Does that work for you?
That said, there is literally a post from a knowledgeable basketball fan several above mine advocating moving him. There have been similar comments about how Boston has to move on from him around this forum for the past few months - I can unearth them if you think its necessary.
I think that it takes guys like Harris a while to adjust to their NBA role of being a really high volume three point shooter. These guys come from often rigid college systems, particularly Harris playing at UVA, where you probably are not encouraged to shoot 10 threes a game, shoot above the break, etc. and these guys also go from being often star players with multi-faceted roles to being just shooters, and they have to learn all these new movements and roles within an NBA offense. In one of the million pieces about Duncan Robinson's road to the NBA story, there was an anecdote about when he was going to the G League, Spoelstra told him that he wanted to see him have a game where he attempted 20+ threes and Robinson couldn't understand how he would be able to do something like that. Obviously now Miami and Robinson are seeing the rewards of instilling that kind of mindset in him early on.
This gives me hope that the Celtics can find a diamond in the rough who can turn into a really great shooter. Davis Bertans is a good example of a guy who was always a good shooter, but really figured something out in Washington this season and has turned into an elite sniper, mainly due to just an increase in attempts.
I may be overreacting but feels like every other team has one of these bench snipers but us. It’s why I’m not ready to give up on Carsen but I absolutely go into the draft looking for one.
Harris/Bertans received minutes on teams (Nets/Wash) going nowhere. They were given the green light to shoot often in low leverage situations. They blossomed, it happens quite often. Developing kids on contenders is tricky and why Miami/Toronto should be commended (and mimic'd)
I could see, Svi Mykhailiuk, in Detroit making a similar Bertans/Harris leap. If you're looking for a diamond in the rough, dirt cheap bench shooter, he's your target IMO.
The Celtics tried the "Duncan Robinson approach" with Carsten Edwards, and greenlit him in the G-League. Carsten just failed miserably year 1. He'll get another shot up North next season (unless he's part of a bigger trade deal). Popcorn in a pan
I could see, Svi Mykhailiuk, in Detroit making a similar Bertans/Harris leap. If you're looking for a diamond in the rough, dirt cheap bench shooter, he's your target IMO.
The Celtics tried the "Duncan Robinson approach" with Carsten Edwards, and greenlit him in the G-League. Carsten just failed miserably year 1. He'll get another shot up North next season (unless he's part of a bigger trade deal). Popcorn in a pan
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Re Carsen: isn’t part of the “issue” (such as it is) that you’ve got three picks in a draft loaded with talented PGs / combo guards and a zero-sum number of roster spots and developmental minutes? Like, if Ainge loves Kira Lewis or Cole Anthony or Tyrell Terry or Tyrese Maxey and grabs one of them #14, I’d kind of assume Edwards’ days in Boston are numbered, but that wouldn’t necessarily mean they had given up all hope for him as a prospect.
Svi would be a very nice addition. He made a lot of tough shots for Kansas. Then he improved his 3-pt shooting from 32.6% to 40.4% from Year 1 to Year 2 while also taking 3 more 3-pointers per game.
Good athlete too. He always seemed like one of those guys who looks the part, but the production just never quite happened like you thought it might. Sometimes those guys just take a little while to get it, sometimes they never do.
I honestly don't know what the consensus is out there in C's land. Probably something akin to "What happened to that kid with the dreads who hit 9 threes in a pre-season game? They really could have used him in the post-season." which lines up with your not-on-the-radar point. I think if we took a poll on this board most would advocate for another year to see if there's room for growth, some would want to jettison/move on, and there might even be a smattering of true believers remaining. While I would personally advocate for patience, I think there's plenty of evidence that the people who want to move on may very well be right.
It would look to future free agents as if Boston is willing to trade guys when they're expiring deals. And pretty much every franchise does that. I doubt that many free agents will be sweating that Boston might trade them to a contender in the last year of their deal.
It's been mentioned in thread and is a semi-regular complaint on the board. Filling that 5th guard/IOOTB role is a tough one for college stars to adapt to. I have faith that Edwards will, but I could well be wrong on that score (I sure as shit was about Jaylen, even if I was one of the earlier passengers on the JB Bandwagon Express).
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This is the offseason of the Greek Freak. The Season of Giannis's Discontent? The Fall of Giannis? Ante Down? Whatever.
Miami and Golden State will be chasing hard, whichever doesn't land him will be looking to upgrade. In Miami it would be something like Bam/filler for Giannis (because it's hard to have Bam, Giannis, and JB sharing the same floor). Golden State could probably push everything in for Giannis (#2, Minnesota #1, Green/filler) and win. If they insist on inflicting Wiggins on other teams they could well lose out on Giannis, though (because even if Milwaukee were offered the three way deal I outlined for Hayward, I'm not sure that two mid lottery picks, one in a bad draft, is all that appetizing to the Bucks).
Whichever loses the Giannis hunt would be a possibility for a Hayward deal (not that I think Boston is eager to move on from him, just that he doesn't fit their longterm payroll given Walker's presence).
Barring their recouping value for Hayward before he walks, my preference would be for Boston to help the Knicks move into the top 3 and swap #14 for a Knicks pick in '21 or '22 (something along the lines of the deal Golden State got from the Stupidwolves). Use 26, 30, and 47 to draft a high floor guy and a homerun swing. And then do whatever seems best with the last pick.
Miami and Golden State will be chasing hard, whichever doesn't land him will be looking to upgrade. In Miami it would be something like Bam/filler for Giannis (because it's hard to have Bam, Giannis, and JB sharing the same floor). Golden State could probably push everything in for Giannis (#2, Minnesota #1, Green/filler) and win. If they insist on inflicting Wiggins on other teams they could well lose out on Giannis, though (because even if Milwaukee were offered the three way deal I outlined for Hayward, I'm not sure that two mid lottery picks, one in a bad draft, is all that appetizing to the Bucks).
Whichever loses the Giannis hunt would be a possibility for a Hayward deal (not that I think Boston is eager to move on from him, just that he doesn't fit their longterm payroll given Walker's presence).
Barring their recouping value for Hayward before he walks, my preference would be for Boston to help the Knicks move into the top 3 and swap #14 for a Knicks pick in '21 or '22 (something along the lines of the deal Golden State got from the Stupidwolves). Use 26, 30, and 47 to draft a high floor guy and a homerun swing. And then do whatever seems best with the last pick.
The Freak is not a bad fit with anyone but aren't he and Butler kind of a clunky fit? Both guys like to drive the ball into the ground into the paint and have shaky outside shots. I guess if you could hold on to Herro, Robinson, Dragic, then you're ok from spacing. The defense would be insanely good though.
Still seems unlikely that Milwaukee trades Giannis though. If they are serious, I throw Jaylen and any of our non-Tatum assets into the ring.
If Giannis goes AD, I have to believe Miami has the inside track.
Bam + Herro (local kid) + Nunn + AI would get it done $$$ wise and be a decent haul for a quick reboot by the Bucks.
I like that much better then Wiseman + Dray + Minny 2021 1st
Then Bob & Danny can figure out a way to drop off their trash @ MSG
Bam + Herro (local kid) + Nunn + AI would get it done $$$ wise and be a decent haul for a quick reboot by the Bucks.
I like that much better then Wiseman + Dray + Minny 2021 1st
Then Bob & Danny can figure out a way to drop off their trash @ MSG
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That would be an outstanding haul for a guy forcing his way out. Not sure that would be a good decision for Freak either. Butler and Dragic are both old and there wouldn’t be much else.
I do think it would definitely be Miami or GS. Both teams line up perfectly for him.
I haven't given up on Carsen Edwards, but I also would not be surprised if he's on another team by opening night.
He's in a tough spot, the Celtics are a good deep team with only 1-4 roster spots opening this summer (Wanamaker is expiring, Semi team option, Kanter player option, Green unguaranteed deal) They also have 3 1st round picks, and 2 way players in Fall and Waters competing for spots. As for Carsen he's an undersized guard on a team that already has an undersized starter and likes to switch everything, he's below average defensively and last year brought less than nothing offensively... it wasn't just that he didn't shoot the 3 well, he was abysmal at any other scoring distance, couldn't draw FTs, what few he did he couldn't hit at a good rate, his AST% was poor.
Basically Carsen Edwards showed essentially no NBA level talents, and a lot of indicators that he lacks the physical tools to compete. Now a bad team could give him a 2 way deal or put him on the end of the bench to develop, but for a team like the Celtics there is a good chance he's gone soon.
He's in a tough spot, the Celtics are a good deep team with only 1-4 roster spots opening this summer (Wanamaker is expiring, Semi team option, Kanter player option, Green unguaranteed deal) They also have 3 1st round picks, and 2 way players in Fall and Waters competing for spots. As for Carsen he's an undersized guard on a team that already has an undersized starter and likes to switch everything, he's below average defensively and last year brought less than nothing offensively... it wasn't just that he didn't shoot the 3 well, he was abysmal at any other scoring distance, couldn't draw FTs, what few he did he couldn't hit at a good rate, his AST% was poor.
Basically Carsen Edwards showed essentially no NBA level talents, and a lot of indicators that he lacks the physical tools to compete. Now a bad team could give him a 2 way deal or put him on the end of the bench to develop, but for a team like the Celtics there is a good chance he's gone soon.
Milwaukee fucking things up seems almost predestined. But I have to think someone in the org is smart enough to say “Hey, Bam is a pretty great starting point for a rebuild with our shooters”.
And with Miami it would be clearly Bam (since three shaky shooters would be way too clunky a fit) and a bunch of first going the other way. Milwaukee might not be a regular season juggernaut in that scenario, but they are a playoff team.
The Golden State deal would be about getting two lottery picks in ‘21 to build around (theirs and Minny’s) as well as adding young talent in a Dray Green deal. Either are a good starting point for a rebuild.
Agreed. Bam would be an incredible start for Milwaukee if Giannis forced his way out. Guy just turned 23 and has really emerged. Put Middleton, Dante's Inferno, etc. around him and you'd have a solid bunch. Really interested to see how Bam handles LeBron/AD in the Finals.
GS has some interesting picks to deal so if you can get #2, Minny 2021 or 2022, you're off to a hell of a start from a rebuilding standpoint. If that were the route that MIL chooses, then they would need to find a taker for Middleton's monster contract because you'd be looking to clear out salary and bottom out and building around 2020 #2, your own lotto in 2021, and the Minny pick.
OT: Canis Hoopus seems to think KAT might want out, and were discussing a deal KAT-for-Jaylen deal with a bunch of assets coming their way (#14, future first-rounders and/or pick swaps, etc., but no Tatum or Smart). Would that framework interest you guys at all?
KAT is so tough to gauge, as a guy with near-KD-level offensive skills in a 7-0, 270 lb body, but the heart of a kitten...
KAT is so tough to gauge, as a guy with near-KD-level offensive skills in a 7-0, 270 lb body, but the heart of a kitten...
I don't think there's any need to trade Middleton. What makes Middleton look so good, aside from getting to play Boston 3-4 times a year, is the way you have to defend Milwaukee. Building that wall to keep Giannis from going 40/20/10 on your ass produces lots of open looks for Middleton. Take Giannis out and he's not shooting them into the playoffs. I may be overly optimistic, but I think that Washington and Charlotte are going to be competitive next year and that Orlando continues to improve. But there's a definite chance that Milwaukee lands the 15th pick on their own merits without Antetokounmpo.
With a Bam and firsts scenario, you definitely need him as a shooter/spacer. Given the lack of starpower at the top, if I were the Bucks I might be looking to turn #2 into multiple and future picks with someone desperate enough. Like New York.
You would definitely need to hold on to Smart if you were trading for KATman. You would need Marcus to terrorize him every practice to snap him out of his defensive torpor. But in that scenario you'd really have to move Hayward to prevent payroll expenses from going full frontal OKC .
People who are talking about who you add are starting from the wrong side of the question. The first hard question is who you cut/dump. The Celtics 17 man roster is all in a position where it is reasonably conceivable that any given player comes back, and they also have 4 draft picks, so even just clearing space for the picks is a bit of a crunch. There are a few categories of player’s:
Core players who aren’t going anywhere:
Kemba
Smart
Tatum
Brown
Theis
Player options:
Hayward
Kanter
Young players who aren’t going anywhere:
Robert Williams
Grant Williams
Romeo Langford
Easy cuts or option drops:
Semi Ojeleye
Poirer
Green
Useful but expendable veteran depth:
Wanamaker
Rookies that could go either way:
Edwards
Waters
Tacko
If you think Hayward and Kanter will pick up their options, even aggressive cuts leave us with only 1 or 2 15 man slots after the draft. If you want to keep Edwards or Wanamaker (maybe Tacko will sign up for another 2-way year), you need to trade out of draft picks or do a draft and stash if you want to sign any FA.
In other words, we’re going to roll back basically the same team because that is what Ainge built this team to do this offseason.
Core players who aren’t going anywhere:
Kemba
Smart
Tatum
Brown
Theis
Player options:
Hayward
Kanter
Young players who aren’t going anywhere:
Robert Williams
Grant Williams
Romeo Langford
Easy cuts or option drops:
Semi Ojeleye
Poirer
Green
Useful but expendable veteran depth:
Wanamaker
Rookies that could go either way:
Edwards
Waters
Tacko
If you think Hayward and Kanter will pick up their options, even aggressive cuts leave us with only 1 or 2 15 man slots after the draft. If you want to keep Edwards or Wanamaker (maybe Tacko will sign up for another 2-way year), you need to trade out of draft picks or do a draft and stash if you want to sign any FA.
In other words, we’re going to roll back basically the same team because that is what Ainge built this team to do this offseason.
it's funny that the pushback was No Thanks from Pat Riley for GIANNISIs Miami really going to break up a team coming off a championship?
I guess the Herro/Bam whiplash is still fresh in the Cellar.
Yeah, I like Bam, but Giannis is just much better. That’s no slight to Bam.it's funny that the pushback was No Thanks from Pat Riley for GIANNIS
I guess the Herro/Bam whiplash is still fresh in the Cellar.
I'm definitely ready to move on from Edwards.
Wanamaker, it depends a bit (I think) on whether there is anyone they draft that could serve as a back-up PG and/or whether they think Romeo has any possibility of playing that role.
Fall goes back to Maine (I hope).
Wanamaker, it depends a bit (I think) on whether there is anyone they draft that could serve as a back-up PG and/or whether they think Romeo has any possibility of playing that role.
Fall goes back to Maine (I hope).
Isn't Brown the secondary scorer? And Kemba and Hayward the 3rd and 4th guys? And the veteran presence? How many potential 20 ppg scorers are needed to remove the pressure from Tatum?
The difference now is the Celtics get to plan for a season where they *KNOW* Tatum can be the alpha and JB can be....well, not even sure what the term is.
I don’t see any other viable or realistic option.
* This team is all about “The Young 3” and Kemba’s deal that nobody would touch.
* Gordo is obviously exercising his player option to round out our “Highly Paid 5.”
* Theis’ team option is a no-brainer with Grant and TL is locked into his cheap rookie deals bringing us to the “Obvious 8.”
* Ojeleye is fine to pick up on his cheap rookie option as he can be useful over the course of the season providing deep depth and Langford is under contract too. Up to 10.
* The two holes we need to fill off the bench are Kanter and Wanamaker, the latter who will surely get paid more than Ainge would pay him for the role he’d play on next years team. Kanter’s minutes can and likely will be earned by TL and Grant so we have these minutes covered in house. Ironically, we had one guy who would be an ideal fit in PJ Dozier but if they can find a way to bring Connaughton back home on an MLE he’d be perfect. That looks like your 11-man rotation right there.
KAT Is a truly abominable defensive player. It's not just poor effort, he also has terrible instincts. I'm not sure you can build a championship defense if your best unit has Towns and Kemba on it, no matter how great Tatum and Smart are on that end.
Semi’s option may be decent value but I’d rather free up his roster spot for someone else.
Theis / TL
Tatum / GW
Hayward / MLE Shooter
Brown / Langford
Kemba / Smart
Barring major injuries it will be hard for any of the draft picks to make any meaningful impact, which is a good place to be.
Yes I agree that we could add an Iguodala-type older veteran willing to come here on the min in Semi’s place.
Would it be crazy to go the other way and try to find a partner to consolidate and move up in the draft? Someone like Cleveland at 5 who needs a ton of pieces. Not sure what it would take, 2-3 picks this year, with Romeo or Grant, plus a future 1st? Then you can have your choice of Halliburton (maybe can play the Herro role in next years playoffs and eventually takes over for Kemba), Okoro (athletic, high character, defense first wing, Danny's dream), or Okongwu (athletic big who can maybe hang with the Giannis/Bam types)?
This also opens up a couple more roster spots for vets/shooters/MLE/ring chasers. Not sure what it would take to get Cleveland to bite, and maybe the optics for them would be too bad, but in a "flat" draft who knows.
This also opens up a couple more roster spots for vets/shooters/MLE/ring chasers. Not sure what it would take to get Cleveland to bite, and maybe the optics for them would be too bad, but in a "flat" draft who knows.
If the Celts and Cleveland were talking, wouldn't Nance but a reasonable target. Would need to finesse the matching salary either with a third team, a step-up trade, or a re-signed Semi, but would 26 get it done as the asset play?
The most important basketball skill in the current NBA is shooting. The Celtics don’t have enough excellent shooters. Ergo, they need to acquire more of them.
Draft Saddiq Bey.
Draft Saddiq Bey.
Nance is a better defender (last year), but he's a poor imitation of a stretch big. I'd rather have Grant.
I think the Celtics would find several suiters for Kemba and his deal should that be the route they want to go
Yeah, the idea that no other team was going to sign Kemba to a max contract is a fake narrative that needs to go away.
Many reports last summer suggested as much. it is fine to say that now, with a year of knee challenges, no one would want him at a max but it's just not factually aware to say this was true last summer.
The reason to consolidate picks is if Ainge really likes someone. I don't think we have, or will have, any idea until it happens. But if he is a huge believer in (say) Halliburton or Nesmith and packages picks to get them I don't have a problem with that. I doubt he would just package them for the sake of doing so.
I’m pretty sure most people are talking about Kemba now and not last summer when he clearly would have gotten a max from someone else had we not given it to him.
But now? That contract is underwater and I don’t think there would be too many suitors. There are plenty of bad deals around the NBA so I’m sure Ainge could find something if he looked hard enough but it probably wouldn’t be easy.
Walker just has his most efficient year shooting and showed that he can coexist with other star players. He had already shown that he could be the man in Charlotte.
If he was a FA this year, he most certainly would get a max offer from someone.
I don’t think he would, especially in a COVID environment and coming off knee injury and lingering concerns about his prognosis going forward. Fine if you think that someone lines up a max deal for a 6’0 guard’s age 31-34 seasons but I don’t agree.
The Celtics aren't dealing Kemba. He needs knee surgery or major rest. A realignment of his minutes and when he's on the court, will hide his defensive deficiencies and highlight his offense (Brad has done this before). He's fine. Should they have gone after Brogdon last Summer instead of Kemba? IMO yes. But Danny needed to put out the 2019 tire fire season and adding Kemba-Ya did that.
The Knicks would trip over themselves to add Kemba.
Agreed that Danny doesn’t move up unless he really likes someone, and given what we all know about Ainge and his reputation, I’m surprised that even needed to be said.
I’m more interested in prospects Ainge would potentially want to move up for if they got to that 8th or 9th pick.
The 3 that I keep coming back to are:
Tyrese Halliburton, PG, Iowa State- Great fit for the roster. However, it seems highly unlikely he makes it to 9.
Devin Vassell, SF, FSU- His floor seems like a high end 3 and D guy but also has the potential to be much more.
Onyeka Okongwu, C, USC- He’s a rare center prospect who checks all of the boxes that Brad looks for and can fit in the offense. High energy, very good passer for a big man, can dribble a bit and has good touch around the basket.
If any of those 3 get to around 9, I think it’s a great idea to package Carsen and our 3 1st round picks to move up and take one.
Some of these comments strike me as recency bias against Kemba. He had a very solid regular season and completely changed the chemistry of the team. His playoff performance wasn't even that bad; he was good-to-very good against the 76ers, he was up and down against Toronto (a few good games and a few clunkers) where Lowery and FVV are really tough guys to play against and Toronto is just a long, tough team in general, and he was generally okay against Miami (a couple of bad shooting nights, but even his worst statistical game was 15/7 on 11 FGA, but a +21 in a 13 point win). I just don't understand why people are looking to move on from him. If you think he knee is shot, then. sure. Right now that's just speculation.
I was perfectly happy with Season 1 Kemba; I wish he had shot the ball a bit better his last few games but he competed his butt off and was a big reason this team was fun to watch and root for on the whole.
I was perfectly happy with Season 1 Kemba; I wish he had shot the ball a bit better his last few games but he competed his butt off and was a big reason this team was fun to watch and root for on the whole.
I like Kemba as a player and love his personality but he has several major things working against him:
1. His defense is terrible. He was hunted like crazy by Miami. His offense was generally fine outside of some cold shooting but his defense really hurt us. Brad can only scheme so much.
2. Knee issues. Nobody knows what the next 3 seasons hold for him but there is more than enough reason to be concerned on this front. He was hurt before COVID and still was hurt when play resumed. This is likely going to be a load management situation for the remainder of his contract, which is fine because we have Smart and maybe a 2020 draftee, but it warrants watching.
3. He’s a 6’0 guard entering his age 31 season. He’s not falling off a cliff next year but the cliff is coming and probably fast. The history of guards of his size after 30 is just not good at all. And he may have knee issues to boot.
The Celtics need to figure out a Kawhi-esque plan with Kemba to keep him fresh. Perfectly fine if he sits out some regular season games. We’ll be fine.