Chief Wahoo logo being phased out?

SumnerH

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vintage'67 said:
I'm with glenn in not understanding the general concept of why a mascot (as opposed to specific caricatures) are offensive.
 
I don't think anyone's asserted that.  There's a reasonable discussion to be had about the UNC Pembroke Braves, or even the Mississippi College Choctaws.  The fact that the Cleveland Indians persist in using a caricature logo and that Redskins is an offensive slang term are important to those discussions.
 

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SumnerH said:
 
I don't think anyone's asserted that.  There's a reasonable discussion to be had about the UNC Pembroke Braves, or even the Mississippi College Choctaws.  The fact that the Cleveland Indians persist in using a caricature logo and that Redskins is an offensive slang term are important to those discussions.
 
Right. And the fact that they're not frickin' Indians.
 

Spacemans Bong

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I can't speak for Indian people, but as a white guy with tenuous "grandma told me we had an Indian ancestor" Indian claims, I think if the Indians had the Redskins logo, they'd have 20% of the fury.
 
Meanwhile, if they were the Cleveland Redskins with Chief Wahoo, we wouldn't be having this conversation as they'd have changed the name and the logo about 25 years ago.
 

Leskanic's Thread

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To add a wrinkle to the responses to glenn and vintage's question: as a bleeding heart white guy, I can see an argument why any Native American related team name is problematic.  It never seemed to originate from a tradition of, "This was the land of this tribe of people, and to honor them, we will name our local school/organization's team after it."  Instead it was, "We need to have a name that shows that we are wild, ferocious, and savage.  A lot of teams have already gone for animals, like Bears or Tigers or Eagles.  Hey, why don't we say we are like savage Indians?  That'll do it!"
 
That's obviously a little reductive, but if I were a member of this exceedingly marginalized group, I would assume that the widespread use of tribal names and general terms for Native Americans wouldn't feel all that different from watching old westerns about cowboys fending off attacks from the savages.
 

barbed wire Bob

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The persecution of the Native Americans were done by *European* Settlers.  They weren't uniformly British by any means.  Early America was much more diverse than the general perception.

The real difference with Notre Dame is that it is a Catholic institution set up by Irish-Americans, with a lot of Irish-American students, and with which a lot of Irish-Americans identify.  There is a legitimate debate to be had within the Irish-American community about whether it is OK for certain people who identify with a certain identity to represent it in a way that other members of that community find offensive or distasteful.  See also the N-word reclamation debate.  It's legitimate for Irish-Americans or Black people to take either side in those internal debates.

When the individuals doing the representation aren't of the group depicted, then it's cultural appropriation, which is much less of an open question.  There's a big difference between a High School with a majority-NA student body choosing to call itself 'Indians' and Chief Fucking Wahoo.  I'd also like to echo everyone who has pointed out how hugely offensive it is to try to tell an oppressed group how they should react to their own oppression.

 
Not just Europeans.If you look at the early histories of the Blackfoot and Crow tribes, you will find that they were originally from the Northeast but were pushed out the area by the  more powerful tribes such as the Cree and the Mohawk.  Tribal displacement and persecution is a common occurrence in history.
 

pedro1918

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Spacemans Bong said:
 
... like Tim Pat Coogan, are often considered people with an axe to grind. I like Tim Pat, but he's a hardcore nationalist who will absolutely wave the flag on certain issues (like whether Michael Collins is, in fact, God).
 
I was unaware there was debate on this "issue".
 
HA!
 

YTF

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Wahoo being "demoted" to being a secondary logo really makes no difference until they decide to do away with it all together. This isn't new to Cleveland. Those old enough to remember know that in the late sixties and seventies the Indians went with a  "C" their caps. One of them similar to in style to the "C" that the Red's wear on their caps and another that sort of resembles a couple of sticks or logs put together in  the shape of the letter C. Not too many seasons ago they went with sort of a cursive looking letter I as their alternate cap, but Wahoo has always been present in one fashion or another and will continue to be until the organization decides other wise. There's no phase out of this, you do it or you don't.
 
 
 
 

Reverend

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This caused me to try to figure out why the hell Cincinnati is called the "Reds," but in the process of poking around I've become totally distracted by the name of another team: the Brooklyn Bridegrooms.
 
Baseball can be weird.
 
Edit: Ah. This turned into a weird rabbit hole with respect to Boston.
 
Edit2: This history is vaguely insane.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Teams didn't really have official nicknames until the teens or twenties. You'll see claims that Boston was called the Pilgrims or the Americans, but those were newspaper or fan-derived nicknames - Americans being what any American League club was called in a two-team town. The Red Sox were officially named so in 1908, but even then the National League team had been informally named the Red Sox/Stockings for years. They just happened to eliminate their red socks for one year, with the American League team immediately stepping in and calling themselves the Red Sox.
 
There are some exceptions - I think the Giants were called so since the 1890s - but it took a while for teams to settle into a nickname.
 

Reverend

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Well, yeah, but I didn't realize the connection between the Reds and the Red Sox--I knew the term Red Stockings and that the other Boston team moved to the Braves, but this is some neat rich tapestry stuff, to say nothing of the Chi-town team getting nicknamed in contradistinction to the Red Stockings of Cincinnati.
 

Orel Miraculous

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The Reds have a unique naming history, being the only team that I know of that was forced to temporarily change their name due to geopolitical concerns.  For the Celtics' sake let's hope we avoid a cold war with Ireland. 
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Reverend said:
This caused me to try to figure out why the hell Cincinnati is called the "Reds," but in the process of poking around I've become totally distracted by the name of another team: the Brooklyn Bridegrooms.
 
Baseball can be weird.
 
Edit: Ah. This turned into a weird rabbit hole with respect to Boston.
 
Edit2: This history is vaguely insane.
 
Baseball list has a long list on this page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/
 
A few favorites from the "earlier franchises" section: Brooklyn Ward's Wonders, Brooklyn Eckfords (apparently Brooklyn loved being quirky), Cincinatti Kelly's Killers, Toledo Maumees, 
 

terrisus

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Comfortably Lomb said:
 
Baseball list has a long list on this page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/
 
A few favorites from the "earlier franchises" section: Brooklyn Ward's Wonders, Brooklyn Eckfords (apparently Brooklyn loved being quirky), Cincinatti Kelly's Killers, Toledo Maumees, 
 
I always liked the Brooklyn Excelsiors myself.
 
Plus, not too many teams who have claim to a player who died as a result of hitting a home run.