Change of Address for Kevin Love - How About Causeway Street?

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lexrageorge

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wutang112878 said:
Rondo is a moody and sometimes very immature dude. I wouldn't read too much into his tone or insinuations.
Note that the same words were used at various times to describe Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and even Kevin Garnett.  As well as many other players who turned out to be pretty good (Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Antoine Walker, and Dennis Johnson among others wearing the Green).  
 
But the point stands:  never read anything into what Rondo, or most other NBA players, are saying when they make vaguely worded statements about their future, and especially about aspects about which they have limited or no control (such as where Rondo could be traded this summer).  Rondo's next contract is going to be at least $10M/yr and probably at least 4 years.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional about what experienced (albeit young) starters make in the NBA.  
 

wutang112878

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lexrageorge said:
Note that the same words were used at various times to describe Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and even Kevin Garnett.  As well as many other players who turned out to be pretty good (Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Antoine Walker, and Dennis Johnson among others wearing the Green).  
 
PP had some weird times like the head bandage, Antoine acted like his number was already in the rafters and McHale clashed with Larry.  All the stars have their issues.  But my one big knock on Rondo is the 82 game effort.  As much as I was irritated by Antoine's game and extra 20 lbs, he gave 100% every night.  Thats not always the case with Rondo, and that critique isnt really valid for the other guys on that list.
 
 
BigSoxFan said:
I don't think there are many people on here, if any, who don't think Rondo will be getting $10 million+ per season on his next deal. And that's why most don't want him re-signed. There will likely be better ways for the Celtics to spend that money.
 
Even with what I said above, I am not ready to write the guy off yet.  If he would resign for something slightly below the max then I might even give him 5 years.  Its easy to go find guys to replace his numbers, but there is a very small list of PGs who can actually take over a game and while he doesnt do it consistently Rondo does have the ability to do that.  Thats a pretty important skill come playoff time.
 

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wutang112878 said:
 
PP had some weird times like the head bandage, Antoine acted like his number was already in the rafters and McHale clashed with Larry.  All the stars have their issues.  But my one big knock on Rondo is the 82 game effort.  As much as I was irritated by Antoine's game and extra 20 lbs, he gave 100% every night.  Thats not always the case with Rondo, and that critique isnt really valid for the other guys on that list.
 
 
Even with what I said above, I am not ready to write the guy off yet.  If he would resign for something slightly below the max then I might even give him 5 years.  Its easy to go find guys to replace his numbers, but there is a very small list of PGs who can actually take over a game and while he doesnt do it consistently Rondo does have the ability to do that.  Thats a pretty important skill come playoff time.
Rondo took over a half dozen playoff games a half dozen years ago......it really isnt uncommon for a guard to do so on occasion. There are a ton of non-scorers at the position who didn't have 3 of the leagues All-time Top-20 scorers around rack up home cooking assists. Rather than paying near max you can probably get similar production from Elfrid Payton at #17 in a year or two on his rookie contract
 

BostonFan23

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2012 isn't half a dozen years ago. I'm all for trading RR, but you've always underrated his playoff performances.
 

HomeRunBaker

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BostonFan23 said:
2012 isn't half a dozen years ago. I'm all for trading RR, but you've always underrated his playoff performances.
No doubt he's had some great games over his career. We also have 122 Celtics games over the past 4 seasons where the team has a better winning pct with him in street clothes. He's not an impact player in the big picture......if he was his team wouldn't win more when he didn't play.

I've always felt he was easily replaceable going back many years.....the results when he isn't playing doesn't refute this. I was told at the 40 mark it was a small sample which was true.....then the sample got to 80 games and now 122 with no discernible change in this trend. At some point the actual game results are more than mere noise in the data.

Rondo's a good player. So is Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague and a dozen other PGs in that group. I feel Ainge values him the same which is why he will look to move him rather than pay more than what the 9-10m market value suggests.
 

wutang112878

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HomeRunBaker said:
Rondo took over a half dozen playoff games a half dozen years ago......it really isnt uncommon for a guard to do so on occasion. There are a ton of non-scorers at the position who didn't have 3 of the leagues All-time Top-20 scorers around rack up home cooking assists. Rather than paying near max you can probably get similar production from Elfrid Payton at #17 in a year or two on his rookie contract
 
The odds of a #17 pick being able to take over a game are pretty low, like maybe 20% low.  Once you get to that range its probably a 50/50 split between actual players and flops, and of the 50% that are players the majority are closer to role players than take the game over players.  I think you are undervaluing that skill.
 
I'd also disagree with the 'half a dozen games'.  Between 08/09 and 10/11 he averaged ~15ppg, 9 assists and ~4 rebounds and that was while the Big3 were basically at the peak of their powers.  Then in 2012 the Big3 talked about handing the team off to Rondo and in 2012 playoffs he averaged 17ppg, 12 assists and 7 rebounds and we surprisingly got to game 7 against the Heat.  I'd argue he took over an entire playoff run and he had the 3 top 20 scorers but they werent the same as they were in 08, in 2012 he was making them look better rather than them making Rondo look better.
 

HomeRunBaker

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wutang112878 said:
 
The odds of a #17 pick being able to take over a game are pretty low, like maybe 20% low.  Once you get to that range its probably a 50/50 split between actual players and flops, and of the 50% that are players the majority are closer to role players than take the game over players.  I think you are undervaluing that skill.
 
I'd also disagree with the 'half a dozen games'.  Between 08/09 and 10/11 he averaged ~15ppg, 9 assists and ~4 rebounds and that was while the Big3 were basically at the peak of their powers.  Then in 2012 the Big3 talked about handing the team off to Rondo and in 2012 playoffs he averaged 17ppg, 12 assists and 7 rebounds and we surprisingly got to game 7 against the Heat.  I'd argue he took over an entire playoff run and he had the 3 top 20 scorers but they werent the same as they were in 08, in 2012 he was making them look better rather than them making Rondo look better.
If teams weren't loaded with PG's like they were 6 years Payton would be a Top-10 pick......he's not a typical 17 pick.

My point was his skillset is and always has been easily replaceable. He had some great playoff games.....so have Sam Cassell, Baron Davis and Stephon Curry. That doesn't mean you build around them on a long-term plan. Rondo has never been a consistently efficient scorer to be that guy.
 

wutang112878

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HomeRunBaker said:
No doubt he's had some great games over his career. We also have 122 Celtics games over the past 4 seasons where the team has a better winning pct with him in street clothes. He's not an impact player in the big picture......if he was his team wouldn't win more when he didn't play.

I've always felt he was easily replaceable going back many years.....the results when he isn't playing doesn't refute this. I was told at the 40 mark it was a small sample which was true.....then the sample got to 80 games and now 122 with no discernible change in this trend. At some point the actual game results are more than mere noise in the data.

Rondo's a good player. So is Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague and a dozen other PGs in that group. I feel Ainge values him the same which is why he will look to move him rather than pay more than what the 9-10m market value suggests.
 
You're really nitpicking on the the guy.  Last year he was coming back from injury and not playing the full schedule.  In 12/13 they were 500 with him and 500 without him and in 11/12 and 10/11 he missed all of 27 games.  If you want to nitpick him I'd be asking what happened to him in 12/13 and why he didnt build off of what he did in the playoffs of 11/12
 

HomeRunBaker

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wutang112878 said:
 
You're really nitpicking on the the guy.  Last year he was coming back from injury and not playing the full schedule.  In 12/13 they were 500 with him and 500 without him and in 11/12 and 10/11 he missed all of 27 games.  If you want to nitpick him I'd be asking what happened to him in 12/13 and why he didnt build off of what he did in the playoffs of 11/12
122 games is nitpicking? Like I said, I heard that at Game 40. Always an excuse......when Pressey and Jordan Crawford replaced him they weren't playing the full season either. Neither were Eddie House nor Avery Bradley in prior years.

2006-07 the Celtics were 20-26 with Paul Pierce and 4-32 without him. THAT is a difference maker and the type of player you pay top dollar for. Kevin Love's impact in Minnesota was similar......same with John Wall in Washington. What does it say when the player is out and you're arguing that the team wasn't worse but merely the same? (it actually is a worse overall record fwiw)


Ugh....sorry to hijack the Love thread.
 

Cellar-Door

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The odds of Payton matching the production of a player who was top 2 in AST% for each of the last 4 years (4th the year before that) are very very low.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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mcpickl said:
 
If Love is willing to come/eventually re-sign here, why wouldn't you want to go allin and build around him now?
 
Say you get Love for Sullinger, #6, one of their picks next year, the Philly protected #1/likely two #2s, and Bogans and Anthony to match salaries.
 
Don't they have enough young assets to get a third guy to go with Love/Rondo?
 
They'd still have #17(trade would have to happen on draft night for this), Olynyk, a #1 in 2015, two #1s in 2016, another in 2018(have to keep 2017 #1 in this scenario), maybe a sign-and-traded Avery Bradley if he has in a front office fan somewhere, the trade exception, for a third guy.
 
Couldn't those assets possibly fetch a third guy? If they could, why waste a season hanging on to them if you can build a good team now? I wouldn't trade them for a 35 year old guy, but if you could get say Al Horford? Or maybe Asik/a sign and traded Hayward for less than Horford would cost? Or a different guy I'm not thinking of?
 
I still think this is a year too early, but if you can get Love it makes no sense to me to just tell him to be on a garbage team for another year when you have the future assets to put a good team around him now. Don't get taking the Half Measures(trademark Mike Ehrmantraut) plan at all.
 
Edit: I erased your question about Rondo. I agree I don't think he gets the max. But I do think Ainge re-signs him. He's too good a player to let walk. Maybe a 5 year deal starting at 13-14M or so.
 
 
mcpickl said:
I think you're misreading this.
 
He didn't say he'll be here a couple months at least, he said he's been here a couple months. He explained later until this year once the season ended he left for Kentucky, and this year he's stayed in Boston because his kids are in school here now.
 
Don't think the Love/Rondo comparison works on letting them walk for nothing, because I think Love is leaving Minny regardless and I believe Rondo does want to stay in Boston. I think Ainge likes him much more than you, or I, do. I think he would give him 5/75 in a flash.
 
 
wutang112878 said:
 
PP had some weird times like the head bandage, Antoine acted like his number was already in the rafters and McHale clashed with Larry.  All the stars have their issues.  But my one big knock on Rondo is the 82 game effort.  As much as I was irritated by Antoine's game and extra 20 lbs, he gave 100% every night.  Thats not always the case with Rondo, and that critique isnt really valid for the other guys on that list.
 
 
 
Even with what I said above, I am not ready to write the guy off yet.  If he would resign for something slightly below the max then I might even give him 5 years.  Its easy to go find guys to replace his numbers, but there is a very small list of PGs who can actually take over a game and while he doesnt do it consistently Rondo does have the ability to do that.  Thats a pretty important skill come playoff time.
 
The new CBA limits contracts to 4 years. Probably would be beneficial to pin the CBA to the top of this forum before the offseason.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Rondo's skillset needs to be considered in context, though. We all know he's not a primary or even secondary offensive option; he needs to be surrounded by scorers. He was never going to make last year's collection of dreck much better, because their problem was the lack of a primary scorer. When Rondo played with Pierce and Garnett, they were able to get by without him because Pierce played the playmaker role. While Paul was capable of that in stretches, I don't think that's an optimal usage for him, and I think, record notwithstanding, it was obvious that they were a better team with Rondo on the floor. 
 
Rondo's a very limited player. I would never advocate building a team around him, I'm not sure he's really deserving of the max, and I agree that he's not demonstrably better, in the abstract, than guys like Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague. But Rondo is probably the best pure distributor in the NBA, and I think it's worth considering how Rondo's abilities fit with a team built around Kevin Love. Love is a volume scorer, and the premier floor-spacing big man in the league, which would give Rondo space to operate in the paint and a deadly catch-and-shoot option. Love is a fantastic outlet passer, which plays to Rondo's strengths in the open floor. He's at his best in the pick-and-roll, and needs to get the ball in his spot, not 30 feet from the basket; he's not a playmaker like Pierce was. Both of those require a point guard who is a skilled passer and decision maker, as opposed to a Jeff Teague type. 
 
Since we all seem to agree that a Celtics team with Kevin Love would need to add a scoring wing who can create their own shot, I actually think Rondo would fit well on that team as a third scoring option and facilitator. 
 

wutang112878

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
The new CBA limits contracts to 4 years. Probably would be beneficial to pin the CBA to the top of this forum before the offseason.
 
Doesnt Rondo fall into the Larry Bird exception so he could get 5 years?
 
 
CreightonGubanich said:
Rondo's a very limited player. I would never advocate building a team around him, I'm not sure he's really deserving of the max, and I agree that he's not demonstrably better, in the abstract, than guys like Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague. But Rondo is probably the best pure distributor in the NBA, and I think it's worth considering how Rondo's abilities fit with a team built around Kevin Love. Love is a volume scorer, and the premier floor-spacing big man in the league, which would give Rondo space to operate in the paint and a deadly catch-and-shoot option. Love is a fantastic outlet passer, which plays to Rondo's strengths in the open floor. He's at his best in the pick-and-roll, and needs to get the ball in his spot, not 30 feet from the basket; he's not a playmaker like Pierce was. Both of those require a point guard who is a skilled passer and decision maker, as opposed to a Jeff Teague type. 
 
This is spot on and an awesome post.  I would Love, just Love to see Rondo and Love playing together for these exact reasons.  This isnt a Pierce and Antoine complimenting each other because they were on a team of weak scorers and individually they could create their own shots so they could carry the team.  These are 2 guys where their strengths are going to make each of them better players which is super fun to watch and is really what you want when you form your team where you believe the whole is going to be greater than the sum of the parts.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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wutang112878 said:
 
Doesnt Rondo fall into the Larry Bird exception so he could get 5 years?
 
 
 
This is spot on and an awesome post.  I would Love, just Love to see Rondo and Love playing together for these exact reasons.  This isnt a Pierce and Antoine complimenting each other because they were on a team of weak scorers and individually they could create their own shots so they could carry the team.  These are 2 guys where their strengths are going to make each of them better players which is super fun to watch and is really what you want when you form your team where you believe the whole is going to be greater than the sum of the parts.
 
Yeah, I guess he does. My bad. I was under the impression that only guys coming off their rookie deals qualified for the 5 year contracts.
 

swingin val

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HomeRunBaker said:
If teams weren't loaded with PG's like they were 6 years Payton would be a Top-10 pick......he's not a typical 17 pick.

My point was his skillset is and always has been easily replaceable. He had some great playoff games.....so have Sam Cassell, Baron Davis and Stephon Curry. That doesn't mean you build around them on a long-term plan. Rondo has never been a consistently efficient scorer to be that guy.
Steph Curry isn't a guy you build around?

I imagine you meant Marbury, right?
 

wutang112878

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
Yeah, I guess he does. My bad. I was under the impression that only guys coming off their rookie deals qualified for the 5 year contracts.
 
Besides Larry Coon, some but probably not all of the GMs and agents in the league and the league office, I dont think anyone can easily understand and make sense of this CBA.  There is very, very little about it that is straight forward.  I just dont understand why its so complex and they make each one more and more complex because I dont think the players nor the owners actually benefit from it.
 

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swingin val said:
Steph Curry isn't a guy you build around?

I imagine you meant Marbury, right?
Absolutley not if your goal is to advance deep into the playoffs. By definition the skillset is that of a complimentary player.

There are exceptions as there is with any rule but it's extremely rare when a top playoff team is built around their PG.
 

kazuneko

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
You should read either a) this thread in its entirety or b) the CBA.
I completely understand: the current CBA allows the team who has rights to the player to offer significantly more money than any opposing team can - thus making it more likely that players will resign with their current team.  So if that is such a significant factor, how is it again that Minnesota is willing to trade him in the first place?  Seems to me that their only reason for trading the man is that they disagree with your premise. Minnesota is making this trade because they believe that once Love hits free agency he will take less money from another team for the opportunity to play for a contender.  
So you can't have it both ways. You can't say this trade makes any sense at all for Minnesota and not also accept that it is also a risk (for the very same reasons that Minnesota is trading him) for Boston. And it's not like that's never happened.  I mean, wasn't it just last off-season (a year after the Lakers pulled off a similar trade) Dwight Howard took $30 million dollars less to leave LA for Houston?
 

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Don't see any realistic scenario that Carmelo ends up on the Celtics.
 
Can't imagine NY trading him here.
 

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kazuneko said:
I completely understand: the current CBA allows the team who has rights to the player to offer significantly more money than any opposing team can - thus making it more likely that players will resign with their current team.  So if that is such a significant factor, how is it again that Minnesota is willing to trade him in the first place?  Seems to me that their only reason for trading the man is that they disagree with your premise. Minnesota is making this trade because they believe that once Love hits free agency he will take less money from another team for the opportunity to play for a contender.  
So you can't have it both ways. You can't say this trade makes any sense at all for Minnesota and not also accept that it is also a risk (for the very same reasons that Minnesota is trading him) for Boston. And it's not like that's never happened.  I mean, wasn't it just last off-season (a year after the Lakers pulled off a similar trade) Dwight Howard took $30 million dollars less to leave LA for Houston?
 
The thing is that Dwight Howard refused steadfastly to give assurances he was going to resign. The Lakers still took the gamble and lost.
 
That doesn't mean that Danny can't secure an assurance from Love before he pulls the trigger.
 

swingin val

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And it has been discussed over and over that Howard going to Texas, where there is no state income tax, cost himself almost no money in doing that.
 

bowiac

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Nick Kaufman said:
The thing is that Dwight Howard refused steadfastly to give assurances he was going to resign. The Lakers still took the gamble and lost.
 
That doesn't mean that Danny can't secure an assurance from Love before he pulls the trigger.
Personally, I find it largely implausible Love would give such assurances without some bizarre scenario I can't fathom (Carmelo signing here).
 

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kazuneko said:
I completely understand: the current CBA allows the team who has rights to the player to offer significantly more money than any opposing team can - thus making it more likely that players will resign with their current team.  So if that is such a significant factor, how is it again that Minnesota is willing to trade him in the first place?  Seems to me that their only reason for trading the man is that they disagree with your premise. Minnesota is making this trade because they believe that once Love hits free agency he will take less money from another team for the opportunity to play for a contender.  
So you can't have it both ways. You can't say this trade makes any sense at all for Minnesota and not also accept that it is also a risk (for the very same reasons that Minnesota is trading him) for Boston. And it's not like that's never happened.  I mean, wasn't it just last off-season (a year after the Lakers pulled off a similar trade) Dwight Howard took $30 million dollars less to leave LA for Houston?
 
Then why wouldn't he agree to an immediate extension? Obviously, that would be far preferable for Ainge.
The only plausible answer is he wants to see what type of team the Cs can build around him - and presumably, if it does not meet his expectations he wants the option of pursuing other directions. Unfortunately, unlike Garnett,  Love is not the type of player that can be the best player on a true contender and his acquisition isn't going to be followed by a trade for a third star (the team does not have the resources). It also should be clear that  minor moves that may be available to Ainge -ie acquiring Asik etc - won't be enough to turn this team into an NBA power.  In the end, the most likely result is that the team ends up no better than the team he is currently looking to leave and this will almost certainly leave Love quite frustrated. 
Will he then leave money on the table to pursue other options? Who knows. But NBA stars are all rich beyond measure - and as James, Bosh and Wade proved (each leaving many millions on the table to pursue their Miami experiment) today's players are perfectly capable of choosing winning over maximum earnings.
 
 
Look, the CBA is complicated and intricate. Everybody makes mistakes and forgets things, but in this thread you were like the 7th person to ask why Love wouldn't agree to an immediate extension. It's been explained many times. An extension severely limits the amount of money he can make, as it's a raise on his already existing salary, where as a new contract, signed as a UFA with or without Bird rights, is a percentage of the cap figure. An extension would limit Love to 7.5% raises annually on his current 14 million base. As a free agent with Bird Rights (which is why he's pushing for a trade) he'd be eligible for the same 7.5% raises on a base salary of 30% of the cap. So he'd be getting 7.5% raises on 19 million instead of 14 million. So in the case of an extension, it's not merely about the final year, it's also about the base salary that the annual raises are added to. An immediate extension isn't happening, and there are reasons for that that are plenty plausible outside of his wanting to screw the Celtics over and then go sign with the Lakers.
 

lexrageorge

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bowiac said:
Personally, I find it largely implausible Love would give such assurances without some bizarre scenario I can't fathom (Carmelo signing here).
I don't understand why he wouldn't give some assurances.
 
Basically, the team he gets traded to will be the team that can offer him the most $$ come contract time.  If he doesn't give any reassurances, then he'll end up going to whatever team Minnesota deems is the best fit, based on the packages the T-Wolves receive.  If he gives assurances to one team (say it's Boston), then that team will be motivated to put together a good package and secure his services.  Basically, this is Love's chance to influence where he gets traded to.
 
If he wants to forfeit $$$ and make it a one-and-done deal, he's more than welcome to do that.  And if that's what he wants to do, then Ainge is unlikely to play in the Love sweepstakes.  Why give up assets needed for rebuilding when the first step to your multi-year rebuilding project is not going to be around?  
 
It's been said before, but Love or no Love, it's a 2-3 year plan (best case) for the Celtics to become contenders.  
 

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kazuneko said:
I completely understand: the current CBA allows the team who has rights to the player to offer significantly more money than any opposing team can - thus making it more likely that players will resign with their current team.  So if that is such a significant factor, how is it again that Minnesota is willing to trade him in the first place?  Seems to me that their only reason for trading the man is that they disagree with your premise. Minnesota is making this trade because they believe that once Love hits free agency he will take less money from another team for the opportunity to play for a contender.  
So you can't have it both ways. You can't say this trade makes any sense at all for Minnesota and not also accept that it is also a risk (for the very same reasons that Minnesota is trading him) for Boston. And it's not like that's never happened.  I mean, wasn't it just last off-season (a year after the Lakers pulled off a similar trade) Dwight Howard took $30 million dollars less to leave LA for Houston?
 
 
It's a significant factor for Minnesota because he's made it clear that he would be willing to take less to leave. Minnesota is not willing to call his bluff.
 
However, for teams that want to acquire him, they are less likely to do so unless they get some assurance that he'll resign (which he will not give Minnesota). Everyone gets what they want.
 
Minnesota: gets SOMETHING for Love
Boston (or Team X): gets Love with some assurance from him. If they don't get that assurance, they offer less, Minnesota gets less, and if they decline that offer, Love may get less signing elsewhere
Love: gets out of Minnesota and gets the pay day biggest pay day.
 

bowiac

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lexrageorge said:
I don't understand why he wouldn't give some assurances.
 
Basically, the team he gets traded to will be the team that can offer him the most $$ come contract time.  If he doesn't give any reassurances, then he'll end up going to whatever team Minnesota deems is the best fit, based on the packages the T-Wolves receive.  If he gives assurances to one team (say it's Boston), then that team will be motivated to put together a good package and secure his services.  Basically, this is Love's chance to influence where he gets traded to.
 
If he wants to forfeit $$$ and make it a one-and-done deal, he's more than welcome to do that.  And if that's what he wants to do, then Ainge is unlikely to play in the Love sweepstakes.  Why give up assets needed for rebuilding when the first step to your multi-year rebuilding project is not going to be around?  
 
It's been said before, but Love or no Love, it's a 2-3 year plan (best case) for the Celtics to become contenders.  
I agree with your analysis, but that's mostly why I don't think Love is coming here.
 
Why would Love, who has been trapped on a losing team in Minnesota, come on board and agree to re-sign with a worse team in Boston? A team that presumably just gave up their best asset other than Rondo to get him?
 

kazuneko

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bowiac said:
Personally, I find it largely implausible Love would give such assurances without some bizarre scenario I can't fathom (Carmelo signing here).
Yes, but I also think banking too much on assurances is a bit silly.
If Boston is a big disappointment next season, I'm really not sure that a one-year-old promise is really going to matter. Heck, years ago Cleveland lost Carlos Boozer because he couldn't keep to a similar promise- and that was broken only two weeks after he made it..
 

swingin val

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bowiac said:
I agree with your analysis, but that's mostly why I don't think Love is coming here.
 
Why would Love, who has been trapped on a losing team in Minnesota, come on board and agree to re-sign with a worse team in Boston? A team that presumably just gave up their best asset other than Rondo to get him?
Because he has seen what Ainge can do and has confidence that he can replicate it?
 

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Re : melo . To be fair whos the best teammate hes played w ? Amare? Iverson post prime? Hes carried some sad sack teams deep, and i love watching him on the olympic teams when hes just a punishing wing scorer. I truly think w a PG handling the rock and another star scorer melo becomes and a very effecient player. Hes a top 3 scorer in the league
 

wutang112878

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swingin val said:
Because he has seen what Ainge can do and has confidence that he can replicate it?
 
Exactly.  I'm sure Love was pretty scarred by the whole David Kahn experience and now they bring in Flip Saunders who starts doing just as much wheeling and dealing to effectively accomplish very little yet again.  Ainge looks like Einstein compared to those guys.
 

southshoresoxfan

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You kinda just made my point. Lets not overrate billups because of the anomoly that is the 04 pistons. When billups and nene are your best teammates, that doest invoke big three from anyones mouth. I still want rondo gone but love amd melo is a nice one two who need to be surrounded w a rim protector (asik) and a wing defender.

Send new york one of the brooklyn picks bogans contract and the trade exception for Melo. Sully the 6th pick one from ours or the clippers pick next yr and top 5 protected brooklyn pick for Love. Green for Asik.

I know everyone wants to pick warts at all these guys but lebrons not walking through that door. Melo love and rondo (at least for this year as i dont think hes going to be traded) is probably the 2 seed in the east. Go for it.
 

bowiac

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wutang112878 said:
Exactly.  I'm sure Love was pretty scarred by the whole David Kahn experience and now they bring in Flip Saunders who starts doing just as much wheeling and dealing to effectively accomplish very little yet again.  Ainge looks like Einstein compared to those guys.
Even if Ainge is a better GM, he'd be coming into a pretty bad spot. I can't think of a case of a player agreeing to re-sign with a bad team cause he believes in the GM. (Which doesn't mean it won't happen).
 

jaret001

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If the trade were to happen would it be more likely on Draft night or later like it was for Garnett?
 

HomeRunBaker

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bowiac said:
Even if Ainge is a better GM, he'd be coming into a pretty bad spot. I can't think of a case of a player agreeing to re-sign with a bad team cause he believes in the GM. (Which doesn't mean it won't happen).
I don't see this as a bad spot at all comparatively speaking. All players have their motivation for wanting to play in a particular city. Remember that Love signed that 4-year deal with Minny with the hopes that he could be a part of building something so that speaks volumes for what his motivations are. He wants to win.....but he seems to value experiencing the entire growth process rather than hoping to for a Big Three somewhere from Day One.

Take Love out of the equation and Boston's supporting cast is already better than Minny's was and it's a necessary change of scenery for him. Tack on Ainge and the assets he has at his disposal and Boston is a much more opportunistic destination to win than Minnesota is today.
 

ALiveH

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Love would rather be here than MN b/c we have so many more good assets to trade for other pieces even after giving up 2-3 good assets for love.
 

crystalline

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HomeRunBaker said:
I don't see this as a bad spot at all comparatively speaking. All players have their motivation for wanting to play in a particular city. Remember that Love signed that 4-year deal with Minny with the hopes that he could be a part of building something so that speaks volumes for what his motivations are. He wants to win.....but he seems to value experiencing the entire growth process rather than hoping to for a Big Three somewhere from Day One.

Take Love out of the equation and Boston's supporting cast is already better than Minny's was and it's a necessary change of scenery for him. Tack on Ainge and the assets he has at his disposal and Boston is a much more opportunistic destination to win than Minnesota is today.
This is plausible. IF it's true (hard to tell now what Love is thinking), its enough to get me excited about Love. Because if Love really wants to join a team for a long term rebuild with a good GM, he could help us a lot.
If Love chooses Boston, its logical for him to preserve Boston's assets by telling Minn he won't approve a trade (promise to resign) anywhere else, depressing his trade value.

I'm not that excited about Love for Rondo plus two first rounders. Also the timing is bad- the Celtics would probably prefer to be bad one more year to take another shot at their own lottery pick. But if Love can pressure Minny to take a bargain deal from the Celtics, I am fully sold.

Edit:GrinAMB- thanks for fighting the good fight on CBA details and previously answered questions. I may have gotten trade params wrong but my overall point still stands.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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kazuneko said:
I'm not a huge fan of Melo, but if you can get him for that you'd do it in a heartbeat. Adding Melo would also alleviate any concerns you could have about Love signing elsewhere once he hits free agency. But come on, you really think NY is going to trade their best player to a divisional rival for "the bogans contract, a trade exception and one of the Brooklyn picks"? That's a bit hard to believe....
 
I don't think this is possible. The trade exception allows us to absorb a contract up to that value, so we wouldn't be sending NYK one. So for our larger trade exception we got from the Pierce trade, we can take on $10.275M in salary without having to send any out. A theoretical deal using the exception would be Asik for the TPE and a 1st round pick.
 
You also can't combine the trade exception with players to take on a larger salary. So Bogans+ the TPE to take on roughly $15M in a deal isn't possible. 
 
You'd be looking at something like Melo for Green, Bass, Bogans, Olynyk (or Green, Bogans, J. Anthony, Olynyk if Bass is included in a Love deal). Plus draft picks, obviously. 
 

gammoseditor

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bowiac said:
Even if Ainge is a better GM, he'd be coming into a pretty bad spot. I can't think of a case of a player agreeing to re-sign with a bad team cause he believes in the GM. (Which doesn't mean it won't happen).
 
I generally agreed with this until the trip to Boston.  Seems odd to come to a city and be all over social media if you don't want to go there.  Maybe he sees that Minnesota was 23-29 against the west last year and 17-13 against the east and sees an easier path to the playoffs.  Is there another eastern conference team that's a better fit? 
 

Devizier

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gammoseditor said:
 
I generally agreed with this until the trip to Boston.  Seems odd to come to a city and be all over social media if you don't want to go there.  Maybe he sees that Minnesota was 23-29 against the west last year and 17-13 against the east and sees an easier path to the playoffs.  Is there another eastern conference team that's a better fit? 
 
I think it's pretty clear:
 
Celtics own...
2014, 2016, 2018 first round picks from Brooklyn
lottery protected 2015 first round pick from Philadelphia
2015 first round pick from LA Clippers
2017 swap with Brooklyn
 
while owing some second rounders (which are offset by second rounders owed to them) and all of their own first round picks
 
Minnesota owns a bunch of second round picks and owes their first rounder next year to Phoenix.
 

bowiac

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I'm not debating that the Celtics future is probably brighter than the Timberwolves. They're a long way from being an "up and coming team" however. They were awful last year. Their premier player is coming off an injury and didn't play well last year. Their young talent is pretty generic.
 
All they have are picks. It's a good deal of them, but it's not like they have a top young talent to pair Love with, or strong role players in place. Of the non-playoff teams in the East, I'm more optimistic about the future of the Cavs, 76ers, and probably Orlando.
 

Devizier

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I am not a fan of Orlando or Philly's talent. I think the Cavaliers look pretty solid right now but they'll fuck it up somehow.

The Celtics' draft pick look better in the context of a league where draft picks are relatively overvalued. If the Celtics can acquire a second prime veteran with some of their other picks, I like their turnaround chances a lot.
 

MakMan44

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Devizier said:
 
 
Minnesota owns a bunch of second round picks and owes their first rounder next year to Phoenix.
Top 12 protected for the next 2 years, which might happen if they trade Love.
 

moly99

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Devizier said:
I am not a fan of Orlando or Philly's talent.
When you consider where they were after the Bynum trade I think Philly fans should be optimistic. They will end up with rookie of the year MCW, Nerlens Noel, Wiggins or Parker, another good player with the 10th pick and a gazillion second round projects to stash in Europe.

ALiveH said:
Love would rather be here than MN b/c we have so many more good assets to trade for other pieces even after giving up 2-3 good assets for love.
Yes, but there are more than two teams in the league. He isn't choosing between Boston and Minneapolis.
 

DJnVa

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 . He wants to win.....but he seems to value experiencing the entire growth process rather than hoping to for a Big Three somewhere from Day One.
 
 
 
He may be less willing to want a 3 year building process now. He does that again and it doesn't work and he's pushing 30.
 

Devizier

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moly99 said:
They will end up with rookie of the year MCW, Nerlens Noel, Wiggins or Parker, another good player with the 10th pick and a gazillion second round projects to stash in Europe.
 
Considering that last year's draft is a candidate for worst in history, ROY is cold comfort.
 
Aside from Noel, who is unknown, there's a good possibility that everyone currently on Philadelphia's roster projects as a below-average NBA starter.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Philly has to get lucky with 18-year olds or they will be in the lottery for the next decade......I wouldn't call that bright. MCW is garbage or at best a mediocre PG moving forward. Putting up decent numbers while leading your team to 30-pt losses every night doesn't do it for me. He's a long way from being a serviceable PG on a playoff team.

Orlando has a bunch of middling prospects with no top tier or second tier young talent. Lottery bound for the foreseeable future.

Cleveland has far and away the best talent of the lottery teams and soon to add even more. They need to make some major decisions on Kyrie but moving him in the right deal could really set this franchise up good.
 

Blacken

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MCW is garbage at age 22. Holy shit do I love this board.
 

moly99

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HomeRunBaker said:
MCW is garbage or at best a mediocre PG moving forward. Putting up decent numbers while leading your team to 30-pt losses every night doesn't do it for me. He's a long way from being a serviceable PG on a playoff team.
He was a rookie who was forced to carry his team by himself. I'm willing to accept some drop in scoring efficiency because of that.

HomeRunBaker said:
Philly has to get lucky with 18-year olds or they will be in the lottery for the next decade......
The thing I find infuriating about people complaining about the draft as luck based is that they are ignoring that ANY way to build a team is unlikely to work. Hoping for premier to free agents to sign with you is also likely to be an unfulfilled dream. (There are way more Lebron suitors than there are Lebrons, and over 80% of free agent signing are overpays.) Trades have a number of hidden costs that fans ignore. (Negotiation leverage, coaching/locker room fit, you usually have to give expensive extensions to the guys you traded for, etc.)

If the Sixers young players are busts it will be a disaster. But if Dwight's back gives out then the Rockets are screwed too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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moly99 said:
He was a rookie who was forced to carry his team by himself. I'm willing to accept some drop in scoring efficiency because of that.
Yes and if you look beyond his individual numbers and to his strengths/weaknesses as a PG he's not a guy I feel is a full-time starter at his position long term. Once teams figured out he can't shoot the ball and can't handle the ball it was pretty easy to expose these flaws. Now he could maybe bounce around on bad teams filling a slot much like a Jarrett Jack earlier in his career but I'm supremely confident he's not the quality of player you build around.

He's garbage like I've said for years that Evan Turner is garbage with empty numbers and being a key force in his team being historically bad. The board is great, Blacken loves it, we can look back on calls from years ago and it's right here in black and white for all to see. Great place to voice ones opinion rather than passively saying "let's see how he does." This is what is fun about this board. My call right now is that MCW is much overhyped and not a very good NBA player with severe limitations in his skillset for the position.

Let's see how he does.
 
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