Chandler Jones traded for G Jonathan Cooper & Arizona's 2016 Rd. 2 pick

[DegenerateSoxFan]

If Jones was really smoking that synthetic garbage instead of the real thing (and winding up shirtless and babbling at the police station instead of relaxing on the couch and getting a good night's rest), then I have to think that his lack of intelligence/judgment was not an insignificant factor in the decision to ship him out.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

This observation deserves some love. You failed to note, however, that the loss of Scott Chandler means that the net gain of overall players with names corresponding to Sturbridge Village occupations is zero.

With the Chandler Jones trade and the Scott Chandler release, who is Belichick going to get to manage his chandlery?

 

[Icculus]

Seems like back-to-back picks in the second could be traded for a mid-round first. This opens up a ton of possibilities. Don't think you can fully evaluate this trade till after the draft.

Don't want to bring everything back to PSI but I'm pretty sure because of how the penalty was worded the Pats can't do better than their own (obviously late) first rounder this year. Does anyone know if the synthetic incident put Jones on the more rigorous testing regimen?

 

[Hendu for Kutch]

With the Chandler Jones trade and the Scott Chandler release, who is Belichick going to get to manage his chandlery?

Isn't Chandlercide.considered a war crime?

 

[joe dokes]

With the Chandler Jones trade and the Scott Chandler release, who is Belichick going to get to manage his chandlery?

They still have a Butler.

Don't want to bring everything back to PSI but I'm pretty sure because of how the penalty was worded the Pats can't do better than their own (obviously late) first rounder this year.

I wonder if BB will work on a draft day deal with teams picking ahead of the Pats to take a certain player, and then trade him to the Pats for some of their picks? (Goodell would stroke out if Tenn drafted some putative stud and traded him to NE 45 seconds later).

 

[DJnVa]

Don't want to bring everything back to PSI but I'm pretty sure because of how the penalty was worded the Pats can't do better than their own (obviously late) first rounder this year.

They can do better, but only if they trade for 2 high picks. The penalty is the forfeiture of the highest pick the Patriots have in the first round.

I wonder if BB will work on a draft day deal with teams picking ahead of the Pats to take a certain player, and then trade him to the Pats for some of their picks? (Goodell would stroke out if Tenn drafted some putative stud and traded him to NE 45 seconds later).

None of these owners would stick their neck out for the Pats, but this would be hilarious trolling.

 

[bakahump]

According to this value matrix those two 2nd round picks would have a value of the last pick in the 1st round
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/

BB Trolls the League and Trades for the 33rd Pick and a 5th LOL

Then Uses one of the two 3rds and the 5th to move up to the beginning of the 3rd to be "his 2nd rounder".

Playing Chess....while everyone else stacks blocks.

Edit:NM...3rd is a Comp pick and cant be traded... LOL I am stacking blocks...

 

[pappymojo]

The Pats trade picks 60 (2nd round), 61 (2nd round), and 91 (3rd round) to KC for their picks 28 (1st round) and 126 (4th round). The Pats then forfeit the 28th pick and get to use their 29th pick. KC meanwhile also gets to troll the league by restoring the 3rd round pick that got stolen for the tampering charge.

It's the classic double middle finger.

 

[YTF]

This trade just makes sense on so many levels. If Chandler returns and plays to his ability, the Pats are never going to pay him what he'll get on the FA market. You've found a taker for him, you no longer have to wonder where Jones' focus is. You've cleared some cap space that allows you to sign Long, you picked up a second round pick and anything out of Cooper is a HUGE bonus. That's better than what you get if you let Jones walk after this coming season. Oh and then there's Jabaal Sheard who largely makes this whole thing doable.

 

[bankshot1]

With the Chandler Jones trade and the Scott Chandler release, who is Belichick going to get to manage his chandlery?

I think its fair to say that BB decided to burn the chandlers at both ends.

 

[pappymojo]

Sheard was a massive acquisition last year.

 

[Yaz4Ever]

The Pats trade picks 60 (2nd round), 61 (2nd round), and 91 (3rd round) to KC for their picks 28 (1st round) and 126 (4th round). The Pats then forfeit the 28th pick and get to use their 29th pick. KC meanwhile also gets to troll the league by restoring the 3rd round pick that got stolen for the tampering charge.

It's the classic double middle finger.

This would be fantastic.

 

[pappymojo]

If the Patriots don't pick up Cooper's option and with Long signed to a one year deal, are they lining themselves to improve on the projected 3rd round compensatory pick they would have received if they retained Jones for the next year but then lost him to free agency?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Say if the Chiefs or Cards or whomever picked a player in the first round and then traded said player to the Pats AFTER they picked him. Would the league be able to block said transaction? Curious about this.

 

[BaseballJones]

None of us knows what BB is really thinking, but I'm going to guess that the primary motivation here was what YTF said: if Jones played here this year and played to his potential, the dollars he would command on the free agent market would be something the Patriots wouldn't come close to offering. And so it was a classic case of "if you're going to lose him after next year anyway, do you try to get something better for him now".

Viewed from the negative perspective, Cooper can be seen as a bust, the hit rate on those late 2nd round picks is 50/50 at best, and you lose out on theoretically a really good season from Jones.

But I'm going to take the optimistic approach:

(1) Cooper obviously has a lot of ability. Coming here and being coached by Scar is the kind of thing that maybe helps him reach his vast potential. Not remotely a lock, but I think it's a risk worth taking for sure. Because if it pans out, he has all-pro talent.

(2) The 2nd round pick may either be packaged to move up (or move out and add a 1st rounder in 2017), or it may stick and allow the Pats to draft twice in the 2nd round, thus increasing their chances to hit one big.

(3) The pretty nice cap savings can go either to extending Hightower, Collins, or Butler, or can be used to acquire another impact player. It will be put to good use, I'd bet.

All that plus they replaced Jones with Long, who could have a nice bounce back year.

For Arizona, they get a GFIN impact player and I'm sure they're ecstatic. I wonder what happens when they don't get past the NFCCG, watch Cooper pan out in Foxboro, don't have the 2nd round pick, and then can't afford to re-sign Jones after the 2016 season.

 

[BaseballJones]

Say if the Chiefs or Cards or whomever picked a player in the first round and then traded said player to the Pats AFTER they picked him. Would the league be able to block said transaction? Curious about this.

If the NFL wins this case against Brady, then Goodell apparently can do whatever he wants, so why couldn't the league block the transaction, calling it a violation of the spirit of the penalty or whatever?

But it's a scenario I think many of us kind of salivate at. Just to see what would happen, if nothing else.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Hate this trade. 2016 should have been an all-in year with Brady turning 39 and so many 2017 free agents. But now the 2016 team is worse off than it was yesterday. Cooper looks like damaged goods to me, and a late-second pick isn't going to have much impact any time soon, if ever.

There's a vase to be made that the cap room, plus incremental contributions from those picks, can help them in the short term.

 

[djbayko]

If the NFL wins this case against Brady, then Goodell apparently can do whatever he wants, so why couldn't the league block the transaction, calling it a violation of the spirit of the penalty or whatever?

But it's a scenario I think many of us kind of salivate at. Just to see what would happen, if nothing else.

He can do whatever he wants now. The case against Brady is in regards to player discipline and irrelevant.

I would love to see the Pats make a move like that in defiance, but I would also genuinely fear the consequences, whether they be immediate punishment or simply something for Roger to remember down the road.

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

Goodell would just take next years 1st and say it's for the "integrity of the game". What's stopping him?

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Off topic, but why trade the valuable 2nd round picks?

I'd much rather take shots at 3 prospects in the rounds 2-3 (even if at the end of each round) than swap those assets for the last 1st rounder. If anything, trade one of the back-to-back 2nd rounder to get a 3rd and a 4th/5th.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Off topic, but why trade the valuable 2nd round picks?

I'd much rather take shots at 3 prospects in the rounds 2-3 (even if at the end of each round) than swap those assets for the last 1st rounder. If anything, trade one of the back-to-back 2nd rounder to get a 3rd and a 4th/5th.

Thank you for bringing common sense into the discussion.

Trading any asset for a pick that would be voided -- just to regain a first-round slot and tweak Goodell makes little sense. The only scenario that might work would be to regain pick 29 under a trade ... then trade that pick for a high second rounder and another pick. But you'd have to gamble on finding the right trade partner; otherwise, you wind up with a low first and nothing until pick 96.

 

[djbayko]

I might be wrong, but I assume people are just fantasizing about how to fuck with Goodell. No one really wants to throw away assets that equate to a 1st round draft pick. That's obviously dumb.

 

[pappymojo]

I think that 1st round picks are seen as less risky and more ready to contribute in the first year. Going back to 2005, the Patriots have drafted the following players with their first round picks:

Logan Mankins, Laurence Maroney, Brandon Merriweather, Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Nate Solder, Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower, Dominique Easley, Malcom Brown

Me, I would like to trade a 2nd this year for a 1st next year and a throw in 3rd or 4th rounder, but I don't know if those types of trades are available to the Patriots anymore.

 

[bakahump]

I didnt say a 1st Rounder.....I said the 33rd Pick. (which actually would be the 32nd pick LOL)

And yea I realize its pie in the sky wish casting.....but it would be fun.

 

[DJnVa]

Me, I would like to trade a 2nd this year for a 1st next year and a throw in 3rd or 4th rounder, but I don't know if those types of trades are available to the Patriots anymore.

Those trades are available on draft day when the Patriots pick rolls around and some team is desperate for a guy still on the board and not sure if he's going to last much longer.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

They can do better, but only if they trade for 2 high picks. The penalty is the forfeiture of the highest pick the Patriots have in the first round.

Right, unless BB does something monumentally stupid, or a miracle happens, we're going to lose #29. We could trade for #30-32 without penalty.

Also:

I think its fair to say that BB decided to burn the chandlers at both ends.

This line should not go unappreciated.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

I might be wrong, but I assume people are just fantasizing about how to fuck with Goodell. No one really wants to throw away assets that equate to a 1st round draft pick. That's obviously dumb.

Trading for the 28th pick only loses us the value of the difference between the 28th and 29th, which practically speaking, is nothing. There's not really any separation in value between trading for 28 and 30, it depends more on the specific teams and their needs.


Now, trading for, say 15, would be nonsense, but anything from about 25 on down is fair game.

 

[Shelterdog]

Those trades are available on draft day when the Patriots pick rolls around and some team is desperate for a guy still on the board and not sure if he's going to last much longer.

Right. How often they're available seems to vaciliate over time based on the intelligence and job security of GMs around the league. I don't think you can count on it but you take it in a second if it becomes available.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I am pretty convinced the Chiefs' penalty is going to get reduced, to make it look like it's something he would have done if Kraft challenged. Of course he wouldn't have, but you know...

 

[E5 Yaz]

Trading for the 28th pick only loses us the value of the difference between the 28th and 29th, which practically speaking, is nothing.

Well, that and what it takes to get the pick

 

[E5 Yaz]

Josh Weinfuss ESPN Staff Writer
New Arizona Cardinals OLB Chandler Jones on playing the Patriots in Glendale next season: "That might be a game I can circle in my red marker."

Outside linebacker?

 

[Marciano490]

Josh Weinfuss ESPN Staff Writer
New Arizona Cardinals OLB Chandler Jones on playing the Patriots in Glendale next season: "That might be a game I can circle in my red marker."

Outside linebacker?

Odds he sniffs the marker after?

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Well, that and what it takes to get the pick

No, they don't lose that value - that value is turned into the 29th pick.

If they give up assets worth a first round pick, they get a first round pick. They're not losing anything they haven't already lost.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Josh Weinfuss ESPN Staff Writer
New Arizona Cardinals OLB Chandler Jones on playing the Patriots in Glendale next season: "That might be a game I can circle in my red marker."

Outside linebacker?

4-3 vs 3-4. Both teams play a lot of hybrid so his role won't be much different, but in ARI he likely will lineup as an olb in the base.

 

[Hendoo]

Living in Arizona I can tell you Bruce Arians was not a fan of Cooper. He called Cooper out by name as having to improve in 2014 camp and again called him out in 2015 camp alluding to a lack of effort. 2014 it seemed like he was trying to light a fire under his ass, 2015 he seemed perturbed. It's never good when the coach skips the "the young guys need to work on some things" and goes straight to naming names.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Living in Arizona I can tell you Bruce Arians was not a fan of Cooper. He called Cooper out by name as having to improve in 2014 camp and again called him out in 2015 camp alluding to a lack of effort. 2014 it seemed like he was trying to light a fire under his ass, 2015 he seemed perturbed. It's never good when the coach skips the "the young guys need to work on some things" and goes straight to naming names.

Probably not good - but some guys think that sort of thing works - and it does for some people. Some people you call out and they get motivated. Its an utter disaster for others - you call them out in public and it destroys any relationship, and undermines your ability to coach them.

BB certainly won't be calling him out in public - so lets hope its a management style clash.

 

[Bunt4aTriple]

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4791479/bruce-arians-patriots-guard-jonathan-cooper-a-victim-of-bad-luck

Obviously, he's glossing over some of the issues he likely had with Cooper, but some decent insight.

I did like this, however:

Jones might not move around as much. Unlike in New England, where he would reduce inside at times on passing downs, occasionally flip sides at defensive end and sometimes drop into coverage, Jones will be used more exclusively in a specific spot for the Cardinals. “[Jones made] 12.5 sacks playing all over the place, we’ll see what he can do on one side all the time,” Arians said. “I think it could be pretty dynamic.”

No, Bruce, you're removing the dynamic component of his game.

 

[loshjott]

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4791479/bruce-arians-patriots-guard-jonathan-cooper-a-victim-of-bad-luck

Obviously, he's glossing over some of the issues he likely had with Cooper, but some decent insight.

I did like this, however:


No, Bruce, you're removing the dynamic component of his game.

Too soon to tell, no? The other guys get paid to coach also.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Too soon to tell, no? The other guys get paid to coach also.

It certainly could be too soon, and I definitely do not think it is healthy to have a "Pats must always be correct" mindset on things.

Just thinking about veteran defensive players (so, not all the pats personnel issues with WR,etc. and not rookies/FAs who only have a cup of coffee with Pats and end up elsewhere) who comes to anyone's mind as an example of a different team getting more out of someone than Pats did?

I guess Ihedigbo could be argued, though I think he's largely same guy just asked to do more. Darius Butler is one--he was serviceable after leaving here and awful with Pats. Curious for other thoughts----my initial reaction is that on defense they tend to do very well making decisions about their guys.

 

[Toe Nash]

I think you could probably get more sacks out of Jones if you lined him up on the edge every down and told him to rush the passer all the time like a Dwight Freeney. Or even rested him on non-passing downs more often than the Patriots did.

Whether that meant you would get more overall from the guy is another question. But if you have guys who you like more in the middle, maybe that is his best role.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

It certainly could be too soon, and I definitely do not think it is healthy to have a "Pats must always be correct" mindset on things.

Just thinking about veteran defensive players (so, not all the pats personnel issues with WR,etc. and not rookies/FAs who only have a cup of coffee with Pats and end up elsewhere) who comes to anyone's mind as an example of a different team getting more out of someone than Pats did?

I guess Ihedigbo could be argued, though I think he's largely same guy just asked to do more. Darius Butler is one--he was serviceable after leaving here and awful with Pats. Curious for other thoughts----my initial reaction is that on defense they tend to do very well making decisions about their guys.

Yeah, plus if you're discussing who's the #2 head coach in the league, now that Jim Harbaugh left the NFL, the consensus would probably be Arians. This isn't Jim Tomsula doing some tinkering here.

To take the bolded, though - and assuming we're ignoring backup QBs and the Year Of Revis - I might offer:

- Patrick Chung did way better under Chip in Philly in 2013 than he had previously in Foxboro.
- BJGE had two pretty good years in '12-13 in Cincy after his 4 years with us, arguably better than what the Pats got out of him, although he did finally fumble.
- Ben Watson has had his two most productive years (CLE in 2010, NO in 2015) after leaving the Pats following 2009
- Danny Woodhead has more than earned his contract in San Diego, although he's used way more than he ever would have been under Belichick's scheme
- It hurts to remember it, but Deion Branch had a good run in Seattle from 2006-2008 before getting hurt, although his Rec/Tgt rate was lower.
- Kyle Arrington certainly wasn't any more of a disaster in Baltimore last year than he was for us. Some would argue the Ravens' scheme suited his talents better, since they get more help to the outside routes.
- Tully Banta-Cain had a hell of a 2007 for San Francisco, starting 10 games that year after starting 5 in his entire 4 years in NE.
- Big Bang Clock hung on pretty well in Washington and now at the Giants, and has been the primary FS starter for them in 2013-15. Haven't watched him enough to say whether he's improved under other coaches though.
- Sergio Brown's done OK since getting cut after 2011.

 

[Stitch01]

Really disagree with the Chung example. He was productive with the Pats from '09-'11 and was possibly the worst safety in the league in 2013.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

- Patrick Chung did way better under Chip in Philly in 2013 than he had previously in Foxboro.

Really? Everything I had read said he was much worse in Philly. And Arrington was terrible last year in Baltimore.

Anyway, I don't mean to nitpick, because certainly it's not true that if Bill gets rid of a guy then he's all done in the league.

 

[BigJimEd]

I took Bunt's post more about the term dynamic. Dynamic as in change not productive.
Less dynamic looks but certainly the productivity could increase.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

- Patrick Chung did way better under Chip in Philly in 2013 than he had previously in Foxboro.

Really? Everything I had read said he was much worse in Philly. And Arrington was terrible last year in Baltimore.

Anyway, I don't mean to nitpick, because certainly it's not true that if Bill gets rid of a guy then he's all done in the league.

My impression was that Chung was enough better in Philly than he was in his first NE stint that Belichick was willing to take a flyer on him last year, and caught him early in his upward trajectory. That still doesn't mean he was Kam Chancellor out there. Maybe you're right and he was hot garbage, but clearly something clicked after BB first showed him the door.

As for Arrington, his snap count does appear to have been way down last year. Nix that example. How about the rest of it though? I didn't go that far back in time, but there are probably a ton of players who BB gave up on for reasons other than "Can't afford him", and who ended up having much success elsewhere. I would wager the list of Richard Seymours and Randy Mosses is much longer, where Belichick unloaded them either just in time or even a bit too late. He may even be the most inerrant head coach in the league in this regard. But nobody bats 1.000, not even a coach whose judgment is so legendary he inspires Auerbach-ian levels of fear and paranoia in opponents.

 

[nothumb]

It certainly could be too soon, and I definitely do not think it is healthy to have a "Pats must always be correct" mindset on things.

Just thinking about veteran defensive players (so, not all the pats personnel issues with WR,etc. and not rookies/FAs who only have a cup of coffee with Pats and end up elsewhere) who comes to anyone's mind as an example of a different team getting more out of someone than Pats did?

I guess Ihedigbo could be argued, though I think he's largely same guy just asked to do more. Darius Butler is one--he was serviceable after leaving here and awful with Pats. Curious for other thoughts----my initial reaction is that on defense they tend to do very well making decisions about their guys.

The Cards run a different scheme than the Pats. And Jones isn't a guy who got cut because we didn't want him at all, he was a valuable asset who got traded to help rebalance the roster. In other words, I wouldn't lump this in with guys who were "let go" because the price was too high or the team was moving on. BB may well expect Jones to be excellent next year, and still think the team is better after this trade.

If I had to make a bet right now, I'd guess that a healthy Jones gets more sacks for the Cards as a pure pass rusher than he did for us as a hybrid end type. And that's fine, that's how Arians wants to use him and it will get him paid. It's a different set of responsibilities.

 

[pappymojo]

The Cards run a different scheme than the Pats. And Jones isn't a guy who got cut because we didn't want him at all, he was a valuable asset who got traded to help rebalance the roster. In other words, I wouldn't lump this in with guys who were "let go" because the price was too high or the team was moving on. BB may well expect Jones to be excellent next year, and still think the team is better after this trade.

If I had to make a bet right now, I'd guess that a healthy Jones gets more sacks for the Cards as a pure pass rusher than he did for us as a hybrid end type. And that's fine, that's how Arians wants to use him and it will get him paid. It's a different set of responsibilities.

I would also guess that Jones gets more sacks for the Cards. If and when he does, I am sure that a lot of local sports folks will comment on how the Patriots made a mistake by letting him go when the Patriots defensive schemes will at times value a player's versatility over a player's singular strength.

 

[bradmahn]

Yeah, plus if you're discussing who's the #2 head coach in the league, now that Jim Harbaugh left the NFL, the consensus would probably be Arians. This isn't Jim Tomsula doing some tinkering here.

To take the bolded, though - and assuming we're ignoring backup QBs and the Year Of Revis - I might offer:

- Patrick Chung did way better under Chip in Philly in 2013 than he had previously in Foxboro.
- BJGE had two pretty good years in '12-13 in Cincy after his 4 years with us, arguably better than what the Pats got out of him, although he did finally fumble.
- Ben Watson has had his two most productive years (CLE in 2010, NO in 2015) after leaving the Pats following 2009
- Danny Woodhead has more than earned his contract in San Diego, although he's used way more than he ever would have been under Belichick's scheme
- It hurts to remember it, but Deion Branch had a good run in Seattle from 2006-2008 before getting hurt, although his Rec/Tgt rate was lower.
- Kyle Arrington certainly wasn't any more of a disaster in Baltimore last year than he was for us. Some would argue the Ravens' scheme suited his talents better, since they get more help to the outside routes.
- Tully Banta-Cain had a hell of a 2007 for San Francisco, starting 10 games that year after starting 5 in his entire 4 years in NE.
- Big Bang Clock hung on pretty well in Washington and now at the Giants, and has been the primary FS starter for them in 2013-15. Haven't watched him enough to say whether he's improved under other coaches though.
- Sergio Brown's done OK since getting cut after 2011.

With the exceptions of Woodhead and Watson, I don't think any of this is true. [Edit] That said, Jeremy Mincey has had a long career and he didn't make it out of training camp his rookie season with the Patriots. I think Darius Butler definitely fits the bill, too.

 

[MillarTime]

With the exceptions of Woodhead and Watson, I don't think any of this is true.

Agreed. Feels like a lot of streeeeetching there to fit a narrative.

 

[bakahump]

I would agree and chime in with the AZ defense is probably(?? at least imho) a better D then the Pats had during Jones run her. Playing on a line with Campbell, Gunter, Rucker and Bryant, while playing in front of Okafor, Bucannon, Peterson and Mathieu will probably help his numbers.