Celtics vs. Warriors, NBA Finals

Who you got?

  • Celtics in 4

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • Celtics in 5

    Votes: 18 4.6%
  • Celtics in 6

    Votes: 146 37.2%
  • Celtics in 7

    Votes: 127 32.4%
  • Warriors in 4

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Warriors in 5

    Votes: 23 5.9%
  • Warriors in 6

    Votes: 56 14.3%
  • Warriors in 7

    Votes: 15 3.8%

  • Total voters
    392
  • Poll closed .

snowmanny

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I stand corrected — that baseline move was better than the ones I remember. Feels like most of the time he gets into trouble down there. Still, I love the kid’s motor (if not his motor mouth; stop complaining, kid).
There was a sequence in Game 7 Miami where Grant was called for a foul and didn’t argue just raised his hand and THEN...Lowry was called for a foul and didn’t argue just raised his hand. I thought it was end of days or something.
 

TrapperAB

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There was a sequence in Game 7 Miami where Grant was called for a foul and didn’t argue just raised his hand and THEN...Lowry was called for a foul and didn’t argue just raised his hand. I thought it was end of days or something.
Ha! I swear that Lowry does that just so he can tell the refs “Hey, I always tell the truth, remember that foul I confessed to?” when he’s in the middle of bitching about an obvious foul or getting up from a flop that wasn’t called a Flagrant 7 or insisting that he was the victim of attempted murder by someone who breathed on him too hard.
 

dhellers

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Grant seems to have lost confidence. Even with his current release those shots are available. I wonder if the physical beating he took against Giannis and to a lesser extent against Bam and Butler has him a little off.

(BTW, I agree with you in his summer project.)
I am thinking the same -- grant's been beaten for a month or so. That might be enough to reduce his confidence. One might hope that the extra days off, and the lessened physicality of this series -- he can refind his stroke?
 

Rook05

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Two random observations, one about one of theirs, one about one of ours:

Theirs: Not only does Klay Thompson look like a diminished version of himself (a step slow, lateral movement isn’t great), but he also looks like his long layoff has caught up to him. Saw him bent at the waist holding onto his shorts a lot — the universal sign that a player is sucking wind — when he hadn’t been on the court for very long. Have to wonder if the grind since his return in January has him worn down. Sure, he could catch-and-shoot us to death, and flip a game just with the three, but I’m much less worried about him now (at least until it is once again proven I’m an idiot).

Ours: I think the Heat/Spo exposed how to neutralize Grant Williams. When he’s in the corner office, a defender can keep him from shooting the three with a quick close out to get close to him. Grant keeps bringing the ball up to shoot, but instead of releasing, he’s bringing it back down, making a few ill-advised dribbles towards the lane and then passing it back out. A defender doesn’t have to get particularly close to Grant to change his mind about shooting — just be in the neighborhood. Off-season project for Grant: quicker release and/or work on shooting over closer defenders.
Great post.
 

Senator Donut

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The starters (2 Bigz) were -6 in their 1st Q run and -9 in the 3rd. They did have a better stretch in the middle of the 2nd where they were +5, but Ime went with White over TL to close the half. If the poor starts continue I'd expect a shift to White starting, but I'd guess Ime goes with what got them here for a while.
They were also -3 with Theis on the court (though it was mostly the four bench players and Tatum lineup, so Don’t read too much into it). Not starting 2 bigs would allow them to fully stagger the Williams/Horford minutes and drop Theis from the rotation.

In the 2nd half, Theis didn’t play and Grant played a few minutes at the 5.
 

mcpickl

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They were also -3 with Theis on the court (though it was mostly the four bench players and Tatum lineup, so Don’t read too much into it). Not starting 2 bigs would allow them to fully stagger the Williams/Horford minutes and drop Theis from the rotation.

In the 2nd half, Theis didn’t play and Grant played a few minutes at the 5.
They can easily do this anyway.

Just have Rob play minute for minute with Looney.

He and Draymond are the only two bigs in their rotation, there is no need for Boston to play a fourth big. Especially since Golden State does most of their damage from the perimeter.

Please Ime, you've had an incredible year. You know basketball a hundred times better than me. No more Theis. Please.
 

m0ckduck

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I got curious about the Celtics point differential in these playoffs, since they haven't been truly blown out once. Here's what I uncovered:
  • If my math is right, Boston is currently sitting at +122
  • Er, not to jinx things, but just to put Boston's point differential in context against other Finals teams:
    • The all-time best differential is the 2017 Warriors at +230
    • The all-time best Celtics differential is the 86 team with +186 (10th best all-time)
    • This Celtics team is already in the neighborhood of the 08 Celtics, who finished at +136 after beating the Lakers by nearly 40 in the clincher (26th best all-time)
    • The data I could find ends with 2019 Raptors as the 30th best at +131, so I have no idea how the C's currently match up against other winners. The data seems to include losing teams as well, since the '96 Jazz are there.
  • Regarding variance:
    • Their biggest margin of victory is +28 (G7 vs. MIL) and biggest loss is -12 (G1 vs. MIL).
    • This led to me to wonder if that's one of the tightest bands of outcomes for any team in the finals, although I suppose that teams playing in lower-scoring, lower-variance environments in the 90s must have had tighter bands*
    • I wouldn't have expected the C's to have an elite differential given the quality of opponents they faced in the East, but the numbers are still strong given the lack of bad losses.
  • Golden State, in contrast, is currently +85
    • To the point about variance: GS has wins as big as +30 and losses as bad as -39, so much more high-variance.
* Edit: teams that coasted to the Finals also presumably had lower variance bands, since they barely lost at all. Maybe a better way of putting the question would be, for teams that played lots of games to get to Finals (18 in the Celtics' case), is the spread of 40 points between best win and worst loss unusually close?
 
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benhogan

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They can easily do this anyway.

Just have Rob play minute for minute with Looney.

He and Draymond are the only two bigs in their rotation, there is no need for Boston to play a fourth big. Especially since Golden State does most of their damage from the perimeter.

Please Ime, you've had an incredible year. You know basketball a hundred times better than me. No more Theis. Please.
Yea. Theis needs to towel-wave from the bench.

I'm a Grant fan but he also has a very limited role, he should see reduced PT/role against GS

White and Pritchard are ready to play sizeable minutes in this series

The team looked much better going 5 wide on both sides of the floor
 

snowmanny

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Just for the record, the 1971 Bucks - at least; that's the only team I checked - had a higher per game playoff point differential than the 2017 Warriors. 14.5-13.5.
 

Saints Rest

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I got curious about the Celtics point differential in these playoffs, since they haven't been truly blown out once. Here's what I uncovered:
  • If my math is right, Boston is currently sitting at +122
  • Er, not to jinx things, but just to put Boston's point differential in context against other Finals teams:
    • The all-time best differential is the 2017 Warriors at +230
    • The all-time best Celtics differential is the 86 team with +186 (10th best all-time)
    • This Celtics team is already in the neighborhood of the 08 Celtics, who finished at +136 after beating the Lakers by nearly 40 in the clincher (26th best all-time)
    • The data I could find ends with 2019 Raptors as the 30th best at +131, so I have no idea how the C's currently match up against other winners. The data seems to include losing teams as well, since the '96 Jazz are there.
  • Regarding variance:
    • Their biggest margin of victory is +28 (G7 vs. MIL) and biggest loss is -12 (G1 vs. MIL).
    • This led to me to wonder if that's one of the tightest bands of outcomes for any team in the finals, although I suppose that teams playing in lower-scoring, lower-variance environments in the 90s must have had tighter bands*
    • I wouldn't have expected the C's to have an elite differential given the quality of opponents they faced in the East, but the numbers are still strong given the lack of bad losses.
  • Golden State, in contrast, is currently +85
    • To the point about variance: GS has wins as big as +30 and losses as bad as -39, so much more high-variance.
* Edit: teams that coasted to the Finals also presumably had lower variance bands, since they barely lost at all. Maybe a better way of putting the question would be, for teams that played lots of games to get to Finals (18 in the Celtics' case), is the spread of 40 points between best win and worst loss unusually close?
Seems like looking at average margin of victory minus average margin of defeat might be more illuminating. Maybe?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Scared to go into game thread after the Green/Jaylen altercation but Javie is 100% correct in that it is great officiating in knowing when one player already has a T when deciding on a double T or letting it go. If that were Smart it would have been the same thing.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is ok. Withstand the early 3Q run that we know is coming. Quick TO is a great move by Ime here. Again, we keep beating ourselves with loose handles on the offensive end. I get that the Warriors have adjusted to more pressure and jumping screens but we have to be more aware and protect the ball better to stop their secondary break.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I hate this lineup we have out there when on the verge of being blown out after Smart’s 4th foul. Now isn’t the time to have him and Jaylen on the bench. Hate how Ime is managing this game.

Edit: We’ll wasn’t this freakin predictable. At least we’ll be well rested for garbage time. Wtf Ime?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Good work Ime. We deserve everything we get between the turnovers and Ime not putting us in the best position to win. Night boys.
 

snowmanny

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Scared to go into game thread after the Green/Jaylen altercation but Javie is 100% correct in that it is great officiating in knowing when one player already has a T when deciding on a double T or letting it go. If that were Smart it would have been the same thing.
Yeah, but at a certain point it is unreasonable to protect Green when he routinely gets a first quarter tech and then goes on rants the rest of the game.
 

JCizzle

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Scared to go into game thread after the Green/Jaylen altercation but Javie is 100% correct in that it is great officiating in knowing when one player already has a T when deciding on a double T or letting it go. If that were Smart it would have been the same thing.
Draymond tackled Grant Williams like a linebacker in the middle of the court and they called the foul on Grant Williams. There was nothing great about the officiating in this game, including the excuse that if you act like Draymond does the entire game you deserve not to get tossed.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, but at a certain point it is unreasonable to protect Green when he routinely gets a first quarter tech and then goes on rants the rest of the game.
I don’t disagree with that general premise but on this particular play you can’t toss one player when there is a double T. We’ve even seen a game this year, or maybe it was last, when the officials called a double T on the floor then as they gathered to discuss removed the double T when they realized one of the players already had one.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Draymond tackled Grant Williams like a linebacker in the middle of the court and they called the foul on Grant Williams. There was nothing great about the officiating in this game, including the excuse that if you act like Draymond does the entire game you deserve not to get tossed.
Agreed. That was an awful call on Grant. It doesn’t change anything on not calling a double T on a different play though.
 

Just a bit outside

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I don’t disagree with that general premise but on this particular play you can’t toss one player when there is a double T. We’ve even seen a game this year, or maybe it was last, when the officials called a double T on the floor then as they gathered to discuss removed the double T when they realized one of the players already had one.
I think you can when that player starts it. It might be different if Jaylen started it but Green was the instigator.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I don’t disagree with that general premise but on this particular play you can’t toss one player when there is a double T. We’ve even seen a game this year, or maybe it was last, when the officials called a double T on the floor then as they gathered to discuss removed the double T when they realized one of the players already had one.
How about not calling a double technical, but instead just calling a technical on the player that initiated the situation?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think you can when that player starts it. It might be different if Jaylen started it but Green was the instigator.
How about not calling a double technical, but instead just calling a technical on the player that initiated the situation?
That play was never going to result in one T on Green even if this was a regular season game without any T’s on him. C’mon. There was hardly anything going on until Jaylen pushed him too.
 

Just a bit outside

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That play was never going to result in one T on Green even if this was a regular season game without any T’s on him. C’mon. There was hardly anything going on until Jaylen pushed him too.
If you want to argue that play is not a T I get it. I just don’t think a player should be protected if they instigate.
 

Eddie Jurak

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After 3, the Celtics are down 87-64, and Ime might as well run Team Fitts out there for the fourth.

On the one hand, the Celtics got the better of this first trip to Golden State, taking one game and homecourt.

The big story of this one is that the Celtics took another big steaming third quarter dump, this one to the tune of 35-14.

Taking a wider view, the Golden State defense held the Celtics to 34 points over the middle 2 quarters. After a back and forth first, Golden State cranked up the D and shut the Celtics offense down, alomost completely, for more than 2 quarters now (GS opened the 4th with 6 straight, running their lead up to 29). Leading Ime to call time and then wave the white flag (pull his starters, though it is regular rotation guys plus Nesmith and Theis, not Fitts and company yet.)

If this is a true indication of how good the Golden State D is, they are going to win the series easily, maybe even in 5.

The best the Celtics looked all game was in the first quarter, which they lost by only a point, 31-30, but part of the story of that quarter was that they undid themselves with turnovers - seven of them, with Smart and Tatum the chief offenders. They should have had a 10 point lead or more.

The second quarter was more of a defensive battle, 21-20, with Golden State up only 2 at the half.

Then came the third quarter dumpster fire, which continued into the fourth until Ime mercifully pulled the plug with 10:45 to go.

It would be difficult to say which Celtics was worst tonight, but for me that is Marcus Smart, who problely played his worst game of the season and perhaps hos worst-ever playoff game. In 25 minutes, he shot 1-6 from the field, scored 2 points, 2 rebounds, 5 assists, and 5 turnovers. In the first quarter, when the Celtics had it going offensively, Marcus threw away two posessions trying to force the ball to a cutting Tatum in the paint.

Tatum was connecting from three early, but not doing much else (6-9 from three, 2-10 from 2 on the night) and also turning the ball over (4 times). Golden State moved into his game 1 passing lanes and picked off his passed, and Tatum and Brown also did the standard December Celtic thing of getting swallowed up on drives.

Ime saw where the third quarter was headed early and called a time out with the Celtics down 7 and 9:21 left It made no difference. Whatever adjustments Ime might have tried to make, they had no impact.

Another thing that went on in this game was some officiating bullshit and some Dryamond Green bullshit. There was definitely a tight whistle on Brown and Tatum in the first quarter, and a light tough on Draymond all game long.

Ime eventually picked up a tech, which he rarely does.

Hopefully he will have an answer, hopefully part of the problem here was the Celtics beliving too much in their own inevitability.

The Warriors also opened up their offense a lot by going to a lot of Curry pick and rolls, but on that side ot he ball, I feel pretty confident that Ime and the Celtics can fix things on the defensive end. It is the absolutely stifling defense/atricious offense - held to 34 points over a 25:15 stretch - that worries me.

Game, 107-88, but it was nowhere near that close.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If you want to argue that play is not a T I get it. I just don’t think a player should be protected if they instigate.
I get that feeling from a fan but the officials aren’t viewing it that way. It wasn’t like he kicked Jaylen which would have been different. His legs were on him for half a second before Jaylen shoved him. It doesn’t matter…..we got our asses kicked tonight on the floor and on the bench with Ime basically conceeding when we were down 9 in the 3Q. We move on.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Green fouled Brown (OK, foul called), and then from his spot on the ground he tried to give Brown a shove as they were getting up, before the "could have been double technicals" action.
Once Jaylen shoved him back that extremely remote chance of Green’s second T being issued was eliminated. Again, he didn’t kick him and it all happened too quick for anything to happen. It really was a big nothing.
 

jablo1312

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If they can't score in the half court vs GSW this is going to be a slog. Curry is such a floor raiser on offense that its really tough to just completely shut them down. Might need to push the ball in transition more.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If they can't score in the half court vs GSW this is going to be a slog. Curry is such a floor raiser on offense that its really tough to just completely shut them down. Might need to push the ball in transition more.
No no no! The last thing we want is to be defending the Warriors in an up and down open floor game. That is when they are lethal! We saw that tonight in their delayed break following out turnovers. We need to play slower and make these games ugly like the 4Q of G1 to eliminate their 3’s in transition.
 

chilidawg

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I hate this lineup we have out there when on the verge of being blown out after Smart’s 4th foul. Now isn’t the time to have him and Jaylen on the bench. Hate how Ime is managing this game.

Edit: We’ll wasn’t this freakin predictable. At least we’ll be well rested for garbage time. Wtf Ime?
Having your own private game thread?
 

Marciano490

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Whatever. We took one of two on the road and got our shitty game out of the way.
 

Auger34

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How about not calling a double technical, but instead just calling a technical on the player that initiated the situation?
Bingo.

I hope someone can find a clip of that play. Draymond fouls him, moves his legs in a completely unnatural way so they’re wrapped around Jaylen. Jaylen pushes one of the legs off of him so Draymond shoves him. Then Jaylen tries to get up and walk away to diffuse the situation…only for Draymond to pull his shorts to try and pull him down again.

When you combine that sequence with how wild and out of control Draymond had been, he 100% should have been thrown out…also, Draymond doesn’t deserve any benefit of the doubt (which is that it appeared the refs were giving him)
 

Nick Kaufman

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Yeah, but at a certain point it is unreasonable to protect Green when he routinely gets a first quarter tech and then goes on rants the rest of the game.
I agree in principle, but I thought that Green's behavior during that broohaha was entirely calculated with the aim of provoking a bad reaction by Brown. I am ok with cutting some slack for someone who loses his cool in the heat of the moment. But when someone deliberately engages in those type of antics and you don't punish him for it, you invite moral hazard and more of the type of tiki taka bullshit Green engages in.

EDIT: More clarity.
 
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lars10

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Bingo.

I hope someone can find a clip of that play. Draymond fouls him, moves his legs in a completely unnatural way so they’re wrapped around Jaylen. Jaylen pushes one of the legs off of him so Draymond shoves him. Then Jaylen tries to get up and walk away to diffuse the situation…only for Draymond to pull his shorts to try and pull him down again.

When you combine that sequence with how wild and out of control Draymond had been, he 100% should have been thrown out…also, Draymond doesn’t deserve any benefit of the doubt (which is that it appeared the refs were giving him)
Yeah. I think I'm done listening to Draymond talk about the NBA for a while. Kerr never calling out this absolute hack of a player at this point in his career (and well before) justifies all the hate it gets.
 

lars10

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I agree in principle, but I thought that Green's behavior during that broohaha was entirely calculated with the aim of provoking a bad reaction by Brown. I am ok with cutting some slack for someone who loses his cool in the heat of the moment. But when someone deliberately engages in those type of antics, you invite moral hazard and more of tiki taka bullshit Green engages in.
So.. because it was calculated it didn't deserve a tech?

edit: I think I completely misread what you were saying.
 

Nick Kaufman

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I get that feeling from a fan but the officials aren’t viewing it that way. It wasn’t like he kicked Jaylen which would have been different. His legs were on him for half a second before Jaylen shoved him. It doesn’t matter…..we got our asses kicked tonight on the floor and on the bench with Ime basically conceeding when we were down 9 in the 3Q. We move on.
Green put up his legs above Brown deliberately. More importantly Green exactly where the line was and tip toed around it. Watch how he pulled Brown's shorts just enough to annoy him, but not enough to appear obvious.
 

reggiecleveland

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No no no! The last thing we want is to be defending the Warriors in an up and down open floor game. That is when they are lethal! We saw that tonight in their delayed break following out turnovers. We need to play slower and make these games ugly like the 4Q of G1 to eliminate their 3’s in transition.
I disagree with you. When the Cs are set the Warriors are able to pinchon drives and get the Csa tho throw the ball away. It end up with the bad playfrom earlier in the year, bad Tatum Iso, or White or Brown going 1 on 1. The best way to keep the other team out of transition is to score.
But in the 1/2 court Al has to punish the switch. I mean he wasn;t even able to take care of business against Curry, Wiggins, etc in the paint.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Celtics played an objectively terrible game in just about every phase. They didn't take care of the ball, they shot terribly, their handles were sloppy and the Warriors repeatedly roasted them on defense.

They have shown the ability to clean up things after bad showings so that's a positive sign for game three. They can't control the officiating or how the opposition chooses to compete. They can only choose how to respond.
 

lars10

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Green put up his legs above Brown deliberately. More importantly Green exactly where the line was and tip toed around it.
But isn't the problem that that line has moved significantly to allow for Green's behavior? He didn't even get called for any of his egregious behavior.. he even got a foul called on the other player somehow.

Tonite just wasn't a basketball game. It devolved in the second quarter and continued into the second. One team was allowed to play basketball and football and the other wasn't even allowed to touch anyone the entire second quarter.
If the series is going to be like this I can't see how it brings any new fans into the game...and how it won't turn off casual fans.
 

CJM

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One thing I can’t really understand is why the refs take the game into account (make up calls, home team calls, calls for the team trailing in the series) but not the players. Why would Lowry last series or Green this series/any game get any benefit of the doubt?

And I say that as someone who has largely dipped out of the game threads, because I can’t handle all the constant ref talk.
 
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lars10

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I am saying the exact opposite.
"Yeah, but at a certain point it is unreasonable to protect Green when he routinely gets a first quarter tech and then goes on rants the rest of the game."

"I agree in principle, but I thought that Green's behavior during that broohaha was entirely calculated with the aim of provoking a bad reaction by Brown."
I think my confusion came in the juxtaposition of these two sentences.

But in any case I agree with you both. Green's behavior tonite was both calculated and ridiculous.. and depended on refs not doing their jobs and throwing him out.
 

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One thing I can’t really understand, is why the refs take the game into account (make up calls, home team calls, calls for the team trailing in the series) but not the players. Why would Lowry last series or Green this series/any game get any benefit of the doubt?

And I say that as someone who has largely dipped out of the game threads, because I can’t handle all the constant ref talk.
I really wonder about this with Green. He's Brad Marchand, except just the opposite.
 

Auger34

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View: https://twitter.com/espn/status/1533619137146019840


Here’s the play in question..Draymond clearly contorts his body to put his legs on top of Jaylen’s body (kind of using him like a stool, which is something I think anyone would consider disrespectful). Jaylen pushes one of them off then Draymond continues to antagonize….
I don’t know how that’s anything other than a tech on Draymond
 

HomeRunBaker

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"Yeah, but at a certain point it is unreasonable to protect Green when he routinely gets a first quarter tech and then goes on rants the rest of the game."

"I agree in principle, but I thought that Green's behavior during that broohaha was entirely calculated with the aim of provoking a bad reaction by Brown."
I think my confusion came in the juxtaposition of these two sentences.

But in any case I agree with you both. Green's behavior tonite was both calculated and ridiculous.. and depended on refs not doing their jobs and throwing him out.
The refs job isn’t to look for marginal reasons to throw players out. It’s actually the exact opposite. Green would have had to kick or step on Jaylen in an aggressive manner to get tossed in that skirmish. No ref is throwing out a player for putting his legs on a guy as they are laying on the ground following a personal foul in an NBA Finals game. I know Celtics fans want to see that happen but could you imagine the uproar is that was Smart and Wiggins on the floor, Smart does what Draymond did, and got tossed? This damn server would explode lol.