Celtics vs. Nets, Round 1 Discussion

Who is your preferred opponent?

  • Cavs - I want an easy sweep

    Votes: 125 74.9%
  • Nets - I want to end their season / I like competitive basketball / DRAMA!!

    Votes: 42 25.1%

  • Total voters
    167
  • Poll closed .

RetractableRoof

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Kyrie just popped over PP like he wasn't there. If he takes an off the dribble stepback to his left and bangs a 3 over a 6'4" or 6'6" strong contest, then yes, we tip our caps. He was doing that a lot yesterday. But when he just elevates over a guy with no work, we're making it easy on him. Those shots just have a much higher conversion rate.

PP has his role, and I'm not a hater, but we should keep him away from Kyrie if possible. Against backup 1s, with good defenders around him, he's not a huge problem.
The very next trip up the floor, KI shot the same way against White - no work, no effort, just pulled up for the 3. Should White not be allowed on the floor with him either? The very next trip up the floor (I think), he went around Tatum like he was a turnstile, should Tatum also be kept away from KI? When KI is that on fire, no one can guard him.
 

Jimbodandy

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The very next trip up the floor, KI shot the same way against White - no work, no effort, just pulled up for the 3. Should White not be allowed on the floor with him either? The very next trip up the floor (I think), he went around Tatum like he was a turnstile, should Tatum also be kept away from KI? When KI is that on fire, no one can guard him.
Same can be said for Tatum or Durant. Do teams stick 6'2" guys with 6'4" wingspans on Durant? Is your argument that it doesn't matter who switches onto Kyrie?
 

HomeRunBaker

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The very next trip up the floor, KI shot the same way against White - no work, no effort, just pulled up for the 3. Should White not be allowed on the floor with him either? The very next trip up the floor (I think), he went around Tatum like he was a turnstile, should Tatum also be kept away from KI? When KI is that on fire, no one can guard him.
To be fair, we shouldn’t ever want to see a possession in a playoff game where Pritchard or Tatum are matched up with Kyrie regardless of circumstance. One isn’t always avoidable but the other should be.
 

Cellar-Door

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yeah, the argument that on a play or two our good defenders didn't get up on Kyrie fast enough, so we should play a guy with no hope at all is silly.

PP should play when you can get him on Patty Mills, he shouldn't play any time he's going to have to guard Kyrie. That probably means he won't play much this round, and that's fine, that's what 8th/9th men are for, to play only in good matchups.
 

Jakarta

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Pritchard’s minutes were primarily with KD on the bench. I suspect one adjustment from Ime (and what I expected before game 1) will be to play PP when KI is on the bench.
 

Eddie Jurak

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PP has his role, and I'm not a hater, but we should keep him away from Kyrie if possible. Against backup 1s, with good defenders around him, he's not a huge problem.
Pritchard’s minutes were primarily with KD on the bench. I suspect one adjustment from Ime (and what I expected before game 1) will be to play PP when KI is on the bench.
Interesting. I would have thought it was obvious that Pritchard should only play when Kyrie is out, but Ime seems to have had more concern about Brooklyn hunting the matchup with Durant.

John Karalis noted that 11 of Kyrie's 39 points came against Theis, who was playing drop coverage and leavung him wide open. One way or another, that needs to be cleaned up.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It will be interesting to see how Udoka addresses the Theis issue. I can see three options:

1. Change the coverage scheme. Theis was playing drop coverage on the pick and roll and leaving Kyrie wide open. Maybe a different coverage is needed. Maybe Marcus needs to go over the pick and stay on Kyrie, or Theis needs to pick up Kyrie, which would open up a chance for Kyrie to drive. I don't think the issue here is 100% that Theis is physically overmatched - there might also be an element of Theis not understanding the coverages. John Karalis suggested that this coverage is similar to what Rob does, but Rob has the mobility to come up late and contest the shot from the same spot where Theis can do nothing.

2. Start Grant instead of Theis. Grant wasn't great in game 1 but he held his own defensively in some matchups, such as when switched onto KD. He has more mobility than Theis and knows the Celtics' system better.

3. Start White instead of Theis. Go for mobility over size and play Tatum at the 4. This was the closing lineup that won game 1. However, this might give Brooklyn a chance to try its "KD at the 5" lineup and it would creat substitution issues for the Celtics. With every rotation guard except Pritchard in the starting lineup, this would risk the Celtics getting into a situation where they need to give Pritchard minutes he should not get.

#3 is out. #1 is most likely, IMO.
 

BaseballJones

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Regarding the defensive schemes...if you were told that Brooklyn would score 114 points each game this series, would you as a Celtics fan take that? I sure would, because I figure Boston would score more than that 4 out of 7 times. So while of course you're always looking to improve, I don't think there's a ton that needs to be addressed defensively. A team with two megastars like KD and KI is going to score some points, period.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It will be interesting to see how Udoka addresses the Theis issue. I can see three options:

1. Change the coverage scheme. Theis was playing drop coverage on the pick and roll and leaving Kyrie wide open. Maybe a different coverage is needed. Maybe Marcus needs to go over the pick and stay on Kyrie, or Theis needs to pick up Kyrie, which would open up a chance for Kyrie to drive. I don't think the issue here is 100% that Theis is physically overmatched - there might also be an element of Theis not understanding the coverages. John Karalis suggested that this coverage is similar to what Rob does, but Rob has the mobility to come up late and contest the shot from the same spot where Theis can do nothing.
IIRC, they played more drop coverage in the first half and stopped doing it in the 2nd half. I say that because I was watching the game on delay and noted a few instances of KI getting wide open jumpers (which helped to spark his shooting IMO) and was going to say something in the game thread if it continued but I think they really cut down on the drop coverage.

Of course that means that The Is has to guard KI on an island or they area going to blitz him - or, KI just decides to shoot over defenders as he did against Marcus, PP, and White in the 4Q.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Interesting. I would have thought it was obvious that Pritchard should only play when Kyrie is out, but Ime seems to have had more concern about Brooklyn hunting the matchup with Durant.

John Karalis noted that 11 of Kyrie's 39 points came against Theis, who was playing drop coverage and leavung him wide open. One way or another, that needs to be cleaned up.
Need to remember too that Theis was in early foul trouble, and the refs were calling everything so tight that if he even dared utter to breathe on Kyrie, they were going to call it. Theis has to be careful there, especially when he and Al are the only true "bigs" with TL still out.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Need to remember too that Theis was in early foul trouble, and the refs were calling everything so tight that if he even dared utter to breathe on Kyrie, they were going to call it. Theis has to be careful there, especially when he and Al are the only true "bigs" with TL still out.
Good point. A related thing I have heard is that after the physical way the Celtics played Durant in game 1 we may be in for some “if you breathe on Durant it will be a foul” officiating.
 

Cellar-Door

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IIRC, they played more drop coverage in the first half and stopped doing it in the 2nd half. I say that because I was watching the game on delay and noted a few instances of KI getting wide open jumpers (which helped to spark his shooting IMO) and was going to say something in the game thread if it continued but I think they really cut down on the drop coverage.

Of course that means that The Is has to guard KI on an island or they area going to blitz him - or, KI just decides to shoot over defenders as he did against Marcus, PP, and White in the 4Q.
Theis also played a lot less in the 2nd half, so it was a scheme AND player adjustment.

I think Theis is going to be tied to Drummond. If Nash cuts back Drummond minutes, Ime will cut Theis minutes. If the move away from Drummond was just foul based and he plays more, Theis will as well.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Will either coach be stressing or enacting scheme changes or simply emphasizing execution?
Nash will be trying different sets to try to get KD away from all of the physicality BOS laid on him. Not sure how he does it but I'm sure they'll be trying different things.

The most interesting thing that occurred from a match-up POV IMO was Curry guarding Theis. It hurt BRK a couple of times but didn't kill them so I expect we'll continue to see this.

I don't think BOS is going to change much. They probably won't play as much drop coverage vs KI or KD. On offense I think they got pretty decent shots. On defense, hopefully they can continue making life difficult for one of KD / KI and hopefully the rest of the team won't shoot 61% again.
 

Jimbodandy

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Nash will be trying different sets to try to get KD away from all of the physicality BOS laid on him. Not sure how he does it but I'm sure they'll be trying different things.

The most interesting thing that occurred from a match-up POV IMO was Curry guarding Theis. It hurt BRK a couple of times but didn't kill them so I expect we'll continue to see this.

I don't think BOS is going to change much. They probably won't play as much drop coverage vs KI or KD. On offense I think they got pretty decent shots. On defense, hopefully they can continue making life difficult for one of KD / KI and hopefully the rest of the team won't shoot 61% again.
I don't think that there's a hell of a lot that we can change. Change up the hedge/drop/trap mix a bit, but that's about it.

Agreed that Drummond sitting would give us more Grant and less Theis, which might allow us to mix in more "switch everything". But then Kyrie and KD probably just get Grant in foul trouble pdq.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Agreed that Drummond sitting would give us more Grant and less Theis, which might allow us to mix in more "switch everything". But then Kyrie and KD probably just get Grant in foul trouble pdq.
I posted upthread that GW did a very credible job on KI.

He also posted these numbers guarding KD: in 2:24 minutes of game time (12.40 of partial possessions), GW defending KD lead to 4 player points to KD and 11 team points with 2 TOs and 1 block. KD went 1-5 from the field (0-1 from 3P land).

By contrast,
  • JT guarded KD for 8:06 (38:30 partial possessions), and these possessions lead to 4 player points and 28 team points.
  • Marcus: it was 1:48 (9.00 partial possessions) leading to 5 player points and 15 team points.
  • JB: 1:44 (9.60 partial); 3 player points and 14 team points
  • Al: 1:30 (8.20 partial); 7 player points and 16 team points
 

Jimbodandy

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Don't get me wrong, I love Grant on either guy (well on KD on the perimeter at least, not close). I'm just looking into the future and imagining BRK doing what they can to get to the line more as the series goes on. Guys like Theis and Grant are obvious targets for that.
 

Toe Nash

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I think on the play where KI shot the 3 over Pritchard, Pritchard went for the steal instead of trying to guard the shot. That seemed to be purposeful by the C's and worked a few times, though not in this case (more on Durant). It makes some sense as a strategy with really good shooters who aren't especially bothered by a hand in their face to just try to strip the ball instead.

So Irving probably makes that shot a lot over PP anyway but it's not exactly fair to ding PP for not contesting on that particular play.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=544&GameID=0042100111&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Irving 26' 3PT Pullup Jump Shot (24 PTS)&sct=plot
 

NomarsFool

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Will either coach be stressing or enacting scheme changes or simply emphasizing execution?
I think the Celtics should try and push the ball up the floor more with Jaylen Brown. The few times they did it, it just seemed like effortless offense as the Nets had no one who could even pretend to defend him in the open court. Playoff basketball tends to be more slow paced, half-court style - but I think the Celtics have an advantage if they push the tempo.
 

Fishy1

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I think the Celtics should try and push the ball up the floor more with Jaylen Brown. The few times they did it, it just seemed like effortless offense as the Nets had no one who could even pretend to defend him in the open court. Playoff basketball tends to be more slow paced, half-court style - but I think the Celtics have an advantage if they push the tempo.
IIRC, Jaylen and Jayson's bumbers in transition were actually not in a great percentile this year and weren't much better in previous years. My sense has been they both are great finishers but are not so great at judging when they have a favorable matchup: driving ie 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 vs. when they're facing three or four defenders and would be better off trying to pull the ball out or find an open shooter. Happy to be corrected.
 

RorschachsMask

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IIRC, Jaylen and Jayson's bumbers in transition were actually not in a great percentile this year and weren't much better in previous years. My sense has been they both are great finishers but are not so great at judging when they have a favorable matchup: driving ie 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 vs. when they're facing three or four defenders and would be better off trying to pull the ball out or find an open shooter. Happy to be corrected.
Jaylen as a transition scorer the last 3 seasons, starting with this year.

35th percentile
55th percentile
65th percentile

Tatum the last three years.

74th percentile
92nd percentile
75th percentile

Jaylen did go 4-7 in transition in game 1 though.
 

Saints Rest

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Jaylen as a transition scorer the last 3 seasons, starting with this year.

35th percentile
55th percentile
65th percentile

Tatum the last three years.

74th percentile
92nd percentile
75th percentile

Jaylen did go 4-7 in transition in game 1 though.
I'm not sure if these numbers answers Fishy1's point about finishing vs leading a break. I think each of the Jays is pretty good at coast-to-coast breaks, but neither are as good at leading a break that ends in a dish out. The 2 on 1 break that started with Tatum stealing the ball from BBrown and ending with his alley-top to Big Al was a bit of an exception for me. Jaylen, in particular, excels at simply out-running everyone and getting to the hoop for a lay-up or dunk, but rarely makes a good decision or a good pass when he tries something else.
 

RorschachsMask

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The last 35ish seconds really summed up the buy in Ime has gotten from the team. Tenacious, but disciplined team defense, unselfishness on the other end, capped off with an off ball cut.

Beautiful.
 

DJnVa

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Also, Kyrie was fined $50,000 for his antics. He makes $34,000,000.

That's the equivalent of fining a dude making $50,000 a whopping $70.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's pretty cool. My God, those guys are quick.
It isn’t possible to fully appreciate these guys until you watch an NBA game from the floor…..especially a playoff game. Remember “The Scallenge” where Scal got tired of rec players calling him a bum then went out and smoked anyone and everyone who got in his way?
I'm starting to think he'll get some short appearances in this series, probably game 5 or 6, for maybe 7-10 minutes in lower leverage spots where he can't get hacked.
Now you’re just trolling me. ;) Remember, by G5 he’ll be listed as “questionable” or “game time decision” too. This all fits the gamesmanship angle. This kid is too valuable for them long term to throw him to the wolves unprepared.
 

Cellar-Door

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Also, Kyrie was fined $50,000 for his antics. He makes $34,000,000.

That's the equivalent of fining a dude making $50,000 a whopping $70.
$50k is the max you can fine a guy (unless you want to fight a grievance, which they don't)
 

JCizzle

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It isn’t possible to fully appreciate these guys until you watch an NBA game from the floor…..especially a playoff game. Remember “The Scallenge” where Scal got tired of rec players calling him a bum then went out and smoked anyone and everyone who got in his way?

Now you’re just trolling me. ;) Remember, by G5 he’ll be listed as “questionable” or “game time decision” too. This all fits the gamesmanship angle. This kid is too valuable for them long term to throw him to the wolves unprepared.
To expand on your point, I think some of those guys were former D1 players too...not even just rec guys. The difference between levels is shocking.
 

BaseballJones

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That's pretty cool. My God, those guys are quick.
I stand on the sidelines for D1 college football games. Not even the pros. And if you've never done that, or been courtside at an NCAA or NBA game, you really have no idea just how big, strong, and fast these guys are. It's superhuman.
 

nighthob

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Also, Kyrie was fined $50,000 for his antics. He makes $34,000,000.

That's the equivalent of fining a dude making $50,000 a whopping $70.
Honestly that’s exactly the way to handle it. This is all for show because the Atlantic world has turned into a neo-Victorian wasteland where people clutch their pearls and faint at the least provocation. The fans riding the Demon Kyzuzu wasn’t a big deal and neither was his reaction. But we all have to pretend so a token fine (from Kyzuzu’s perspective) is the right move. It sounds like a lot of cash to us, but to Kyzuzu what’s a small ball of cash in a flat world?
 

joe dokes

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It isn’t possible to fully appreciate these guys until you watch an NBA game from the floor…..especially a playoff game. Remember “The Scallenge” where Scal got tired of rec players calling him a bum then went out and smoked anyone and everyone who got in his way?
Absolutely. I sat under the basket at MSG for a (Bill Russell-coached) Sacramento - (Pitino-coached) Knicks game in 88 or so. Just some big guys beating the shit out of each other...Ewing, Cartwright, Joe Kleine, Otis Thorpe, Ed Pinckney, Sidney Green, Pat Cummings. 4 or 5 at a time crammed into the lane. I left amazed that every rebound didn't end up in a fistfight.
Sat a few rows up from courtside in Boston for the '86 opener. That was an eye-opener for speed, height and quickness.
 

snowmanny

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I stand on the sidelines for D1 college football games. Not even the pros. And if you've never done that, or been courtside at an NCAA or NBA game, you really have no idea just how big, strong, and fast these guys are. It's superhuman.
This is all true but the most shocked I’ve ever been was front row at the US
Tennis Open quarterfinals (I think) watching Mats Wilander against someone else fairly good.

It all looks pretty easy, and even a bit lackadaisical, on TV. Or even from the cheap seats.

Edit the Smart/Horford - and to a lesser extent Tatum - defense was even more incredible when you see it on that video. Just tremendous.

This team...
 

BigSoxFan

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This is all true but the most shocked I’ve ever been was front row at the US
Tennis Open quarterfinals (I think) watching Mats Wilander against someone else fairly good.

It all looks pretty easy, and even a bit lackadaisical, on TV. Or even from the cheap seats.

Edit the Smart/Horford - and to a lesser extent Tatum - defense was even more incredible when you see it on that video. Just tremendous.

This team...
I feel like if you let me run with the ball without dribbling, I still wouldn’t be able to score on Marcus Smart.
 

ManicCompression

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Edit the Smart/Horford - and to a lesser extent Tatum - defense was even more incredible when you see it on that video. Just tremendous.
Thing that stands out to me is Marcus going under Horford's accidental "screen" to beat Kyrie to other side of the floor. If he just chased Horford, he'd end up on the wrong side, but smartly cut Kyrie off instead. Super intelligent decision in a heated moment (but I guess that's why he's defensive player of the year).

Compare that against Ben Simmons during Kawhi's shot in 2019 - Embiid comes to double, Ben is cut off, instead of trying to beat Kawhi to his right hand and force a turnaround to his left, he gives up on the play. Not saying he would've made a difference (or beat Kawhi to the spot) but just noting that it's not easy to compile and dissect all of that information in the moment.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChT3ewZXTfM
 

benhogan

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Absolutely. I sat under the basket at MSG for a (Bill Russell-coached) Sacramento - (Pitino-coached) Knicks game in 88 or so. Just some big guys beating the shit out of each other...Ewing, Cartwright, Joe Kleine, Otis Thorpe, Ed Pinckney, Sidney Green, Pat Cummings. 4 or 5 at a time crammed into the lane. I left amazed that every rebound didn't end up in a fistfight.
Sat a few rows up from courtside in Boston for the '86 opener. That was an eye-opener for speed, height and quickness.
Summer League in Vegas is great for up-close NBA player action. Active and past NBA greats mingle between the 2 courts in a very casual atmosphere. The thing that struck me was how wiry-strong, thin-waisted these super-human freak athletes are (bouncy pogo sticks/Avatar-like).

Also, one time I shook Arnold Palmer's hand, he was a dawdling old man by then but had meat hooks for hands, sausage links for fingers.

Pro athletes are a different species than the generic 6' 180lb dude
 

Saints Rest

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This is all true but the most shocked I’ve ever been was front row at the US
Tennis Open quarterfinals (I think) watching Mats Wilander against someone else fairly good.

It all looks pretty easy, and even a bit lackadaisical, on TV. Or even from the cheap seats.

Edit the Smart/Horford - and to a lesser extent Tatum - defense was even more incredible when you see it on that video. Just tremendous.

This team...
Watching that video what stood out to me was Smart's insane quickness and hustle. Horford basically loses contain/leverage twice, and both times, Smart is able to make up for it. And even before that, when Smart digs in on Kyrie, the guy who arguably has the best handle in the game today, and he almost picks his pocket, yet still is able to regain position.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Absolutely. I sat under the basket at MSG for a (Bill Russell-coached) Sacramento - (Pitino-coached) Knicks game in 88 or so. Just some big guys beating the shit out of each other...Ewing, Cartwright, Joe Kleine, Otis Thorpe, Ed Pinckney, Sidney Green, Pat Cummings.
Did you think Billy Donovan was a ball boy in the layup line?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Outstanding D by Durant, who did nothing that entire possession besides stand there and watch.
I mean that’s really not true. His assignment appears to be to deny/contest the ball rotating to Tatum and Jaylen at the top of the circle.