Celtics vs Heat ECF Redux Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
- Start date
It's crazy that there's someone running around with a heat flag... at a wedding.
Nice to see that Brown's low key nature doesn't mean that he's willing to be walked over..
Only thing I dislike about it is that Lowry knows that a trade of him for Brown is a net win for the Heat.. He's the kind of player to do something dirty in game seven to help the Heat win.
He's been allowed to hack the crap out of Brown and Tatum all series... fortunately he's become even less playable this year.
In my head there's a narrative of them slowly rolling up the flag and bringing it out to the car as the chicken dance plays in the background with nobody on the dance floor.
The guy with the fire extinguisher tries to put the pin back in and leave it where he found it.
The foul that they should have called on Vincent was so blatant, too.
View: https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1662941003676827650?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1662941003676827650?s=20
There is notably no analysis of the non-call on Martin when he dove into Tatum’s back/legs on the last play.
Quite as he usually is on the court, Brown isn't shy about letting guys know when he thinks they've crossed the line. Here he is going back to a guy quite a bit bigger than Lowry:
View: https://youtu.be/jT4oVjE4D7M
Lane violation? When the heck do they ever call that? Guys step into the lane all the time before the free throw is released, and it never gets called.
All the time, but a guy grabbing an offensive rebound in a close game because of a lane violation is certainly worth calling out.
You're missing the part that says a player may not dribble a second time after he has "voluntarily" ended his first dribble. If you fumble/bobble it, as Butler did, you can pick it up and dribble again.
I think so long as you don’t touch the rim while the ball is on the rim, don’t retouch the ball in the cylinder, and don’t let go of the rim and make the rim snap back and touch the ball causing it to bounce in, there is no BI. On an original dunk attempt you are allowed to maintain contact with the ball in the cylinder.
But in both parts of the rule book it explicitly defines the cases where it’s okay the player “involuntarily” ends the first dribble. In rule 10, there are three cases, none of which applied. In rule 4, the dribble is over as soon as the player touches it with two hands and/or fumbles. What am I missing?
They said that he fumbled the ball, recovered it and then shot which is allowed. Basically it comes down to whether you consider the fumble (as I do) to be when the lost the ball, but that he then controlled it into the bounce, step and shot. NBA says... nope it's a fumble through the bounce, then he caught it, and shot.
It’s being replayed right now on NBAtv and you can read Jaylen’s lips.. he definitely said the part where ‘he was trying to break my f’in arm’. And ‘review that’. He also definitely said something to Lowry as he was walking to the free throw line.
Could be, just pointing out it's some guy doing a combination of guessing and making stuff up.
I only post this because I TOTALLY forgot about Jerebko.
View: https://twitter.com/JonasJerebko/status/1662659432667332610?t=Tz3u15tRr-oK0GD83ETsvg&s=19
View: https://twitter.com/JonasJerebko/status/1662659432667332610?t=Tz3u15tRr-oK0GD83ETsvg&s=19
You misspelled “Butler throws himself to the ground in three point territory and is gifted three free throws”.
Oh come on. This is text book three point shooting form. See you want to jump as far forward as you can, head and torso first of course so you have as little balance as possible on the release.
Speaking of Jerebko, President Brad Stevens will never get the respect he deserves. Look at this beautiful ECF roster.
Danny was looking to add these 2 at the deadline:
Elmer Skloo &
Scott Chatape
What a ragtag bunch that was....
Elmer Skloo &
Scott Chatape
What a ragtag bunch that was....
That’s a ridiculous interpretation. He was dead in the water when he picked up that ball and would have been lucky to have hit the backboard with the step back three that he was about to take. Instead he took a second dribble and an extra step, which put Horford in an impossible position to defend the play. If they are going to allow that shit players better start working on their “fumbling” skills, as that’s a great way to save yourself in a desperate moment.
Well, I mean, clearly he did fumble it. There's no way he intentionally lost control of that ball, not knowing if he'd be able to pick it up or if Al would or what would happen. He clearly just lost control of it. Even the most diehard of Celtics fans have to agree with that.
And he didn't take a "second dribble". He fumbled the ball, it hit the floor, then he picked it up and immediately went into his "shooting motion", at which point Al fouled him.
It starts at 2:09 of this clip:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajav33zORAo
The slo-mo replay starts at 2:31.
He's dribbling to the corner. He loses the ball and it bounces away, taking ONE bounce. He picks it up. He tries to shoot. That's the sequence. Objective reality.
How is jumping 5" forward into another player a natural shooting motion when taking a 3pt shot?
Nobody shoots 3-pointers like that (You can go back to 2:04 in Q4 to see Jimmy's natural 3pt shot)
Jimmy simply launched himself into Al
With the Announcers openly rooting for the Heat, it's not like the NBA has to defend itself...
Nobody shoots 3-pointers like that (You can go back to 2:04 in Q4 to see Jimmy's natural 3pt shot)
Jimmy simply launched himself into Al
With the Announcers openly rooting for the Heat, it's not like the NBA has to defend itself...
I think Al does end up fouling him but it’s shitty that in that situation Butler was rewarded with 3 free throws, and possibly the game and a trip to the NBA finals, when he wasn’t really making much of an attempt to actually score. He literally hurls himself into Horford.
thank god for Derrick White because that would have been a really shitty way to lose (but it would have followed the pattern of the entire 4th quarter of Jimmy jumping into Celtics players and getting rewarded for it)
thank god for Derrick White because that would have been a really shitty way to lose (but it would have followed the pattern of the entire 4th quarter of Jimmy jumping into Celtics players and getting rewarded for it)
It’s impossible to know intentionality but it is clear that the play changed from completely doomed to a three-shot foul because of the extra dribble (bounce, if you prefer) he is allowed. You just can’t allow “a mistake” to be that consequential.
How is Horford supposed to defend that? He leans in because he sees that Jimmy is picking up the ball and then is fucked when Jimmy is allowed another bounce. If this is legal, NBA teams need to start having fumbling drills as its impossible to defend.
Picking up the ball with two hands should end the dribble. Period. if by accident you drop the ball again you should not be allowed to touch it again until it bounces twice or someone else touches it. Anything else allows too much potential benefit to come from a mistake and works to encourage similar “mistakes”. It's just too unfair to the defensive player...
Edit: I also disagree that "there's no way he intentionally lost control of that ball, not knowing if he'd be able to pick it up or if Al would".Do you see how screwed Butler is in the moment before he "fumbles the ball" ? Al is on him like glue and he is leaning back on his right leg, with the only legal option a step-back three that is almost certainly going to be blocked. "Fumbling" the ball directly in front of him could easily have been a savvy move, as it was unlikely to lead a turnover as -whether you think it was a fumble or not- it was essentially an extra dribble (he is following it with his eyes the whole way). As a result he gets space he never would have had without the extra bounce and Horford goes from locked in to lost...
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I find the "horford was fucked! No way to defend that" angle to be hilarious. Like, if horford stops when he fumbled the ball, o no 30 pct career shooter jimmy butler is pulling up for a Callaway corner 3
Yeah, he should have just pulled away and let him shoot. That said, when he does attempt to defend he is in horrible position because he had assumed that once Butler picked up the ball he’d be forced to shoot. Which would typically be a very fair assumption…
It's not even the first time he's done something like this this series. Who can forget the pass he threw to himself earlier in the series?
Totally. I certainly wouldn't put it beyond Butler's abilities to fake a fumble in a desperate moment.
Here is Butler when he first picks up the dribble. Horford is set with Butler's only option an awkward step-back 3 that Horford probably blocks.
Here is Butler after the fumble/extra dribble. Horford is now hopelessly behind the play, setting up Butler to lunge forward for the three and get the foul call.
View attachment 65399View attachment 65398View attachment 65399
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Yeah, Butler definitely gained a huge advantage, and Horford was otherwise playing it well to both contest the 3 and cut off the drive.
This is a case where if the rule was called correctly, the rule is wrong. There are plenty of other basketball situations in which committing to an act limits your further options: leaving your feet commits you to shoot or pass, crossing halfcourt commits you to not going back, etc.
In none of these situations do you get a free out by "bobbling" the ball, for obvious reasons. Committing to gathering the ball should be the same.
In any case, I'm sure James Harden is back in the lab mastering the intricacies of this new possibility, and will quickly get the rule changed, while Darryl Morey commissions 100 page legal briefs about why, akshually, the Sixers would 3-peat if bobbles were still allowed.
Lol…
The simple solution (assuming that this was called correctly) would be to not allow any player that has lost his dribble to touch the ball after a fumble - at least until the ball has bounced twice or someone else has touched the ball.
I think that’s what most people assumed was the rule anyway. I know if I was playing pickup ball and fumbled the ball after ending a dribble I wouldn’t think to try to touch it again - unless it bounced twice or someone else touched it. Certainly if I did and I was called on it, I wouldn’t feel like I had any right to complain.
The home team getting more calls than the away team is the basis of home court advantage. If games were reffed perfectly, each team would have identical W-L records home and away.
Help! I am in the Adirondacks without cable. How can I stream game on the internets? Thx in advance
Mazzulla's challenge there was decisive as they would have given Butler the third shot anyway and the 0.9 seconds made a difference.
I doubt this very much. For one thing, there have been several studies showing an impact of time zones on W/L percentage (which will obviously correlate with home/away games).
Things like knowing dead spots in the parquet, sleeping in your own bed, fans giving favorable/unfavorable backdrops for free throws, or Nuggets players being better adjusted to altitude than visitors are likely overstated, but it'd be pretty shocking if the non-ref impact of home court advantage was zero.
Wertheim, L. Jon. Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won (pp. 164-165). Crown/Archetype. Kindle Edition.
So why is there a measurable difference by time zone?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9245584/
Given the numerous studies showing such an effect, I remain skeptical of one article's contrary findings. At least until it's replicated a few times. And in the NBA, not soccer.