Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion

Who you got?

  • Celts in 4

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Celts in 5

    Votes: 69 32.5%
  • Celts in 6

    Votes: 106 50.0%
  • Celts in 7

    Votes: 25 11.8%
  • Bucks in 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 6

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Bucks in 7

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Total voters
    212
  • Poll closed .

HomeRunBaker

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This was great. Thanks for posting.

So how does Milwaukee counter a smaller lineup that spreads the floor and can penetrate the paint?
That’s what they did last game in replacing most or Portis’ minutes with George Hill. It seems like Bud trusts Hill much more than Javon Carter in that role.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Do we think Ime could just run with the smaller lineup from the opening tip? Or does the 4th quarter success of the smaller lineup require "softening the Bucks up" by pounding them for 3 quarters with the bigger one?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Do we think Ime could just run with the smaller lineup from the opening tip? Or does the 4th quarter success of the smaller lineup require "softening the Bucks up" by pounding them for 3 quarters with the bigger one?
I’d guess it’s less softening the Bucks up and more not getting beat up and demoralized during the first 3Q while likely getting into foul trouble.
 

Red Averages

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I wonder if TimeLord is healthy if they start Grant anyway. Bring TimeLord in when Lopez sits. They’ll have to throw in multiple looks in game 5 as the Bucks will have to try to counter the 4th quarter surge.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I just don't see the Bucks 5 who can compete wtih a small lineup with Middleton out. Two ways they might respond:

GA, Portis, Holliday, Connaughton, Matthews. You're light on ballhandling and kind of on shooting as well. Maybe that lineup works, but I don't love it for Mil.

Or no Portis and add Hill in, so GA, Connaughton, Matthews, Holliday, Hill. That is REALLY small, and feels like you get roasted defensively....GA is the only rim protector or rebounder, and Celts will spread him out.

I tend to think Milwaukee is better of with Lopez/Portis in there and just trying to win based on higher-percentage shots inside.
 

m0ckduck

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Thing is, the small lineup cuts both ways. Just as Tatum used it to hunt the smaller George Hill, there's nobody on D for the Celtics in this lineup with the strength to challenge Giannis once he gets switched off of Horford, other than Smart. Once Horford gets switched onto a perimeter player, there's not much size and no shot blocking left between Giannis and the hoop. It's possible that the reason we had success with it in G4 was that Ime waited (either by design or by foul-situation "luck") until the 4th Q to deploy it, when GA was too gassed to take full advantage.

I suspect Ime mostly sticks with the big lineups to wear out GA, and the small look is something we see at the end of periods when he's resting, and likely again to close the game, with the hope that he's too tired to exploit it.
 
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pjheff

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Thing is, the small lineup cuts both ways. Just as Tatum used it to hunt the smaller George Hill, there's nobody on D for the Celtics in this lineup with the strength to challenge Giannis once he gets switched off of Horford, other than Smart.
Just as Tatum used it to hunt the smaller George Hill, Giannis was using it to hunt Jaylen.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I took a quick look at Cleaning the Glass's on/off stats for the Celtics. Here are the regular season totals for the 9 guys who have gotten non-garbage minutes in the playoffs:

1. Jayson Tatum, +16.5
2. Marcus Smart, +5.9
3. Robert Williams, +5.9
4. Jaylen Brown, +5.8
5. Al Horford, +4.2
6. Daniel Theis, +3.4
7. Payton Pritchard, -4.7
8. Derrick White, -5.4
9. Grant Williams, -6.3

I read these regular season numbers as 2 things going on: 1) TATUM!!!!, 2) Starting lineup. I don't read this as Pritchard, White, and Grant being bad so much as them backing up the best 2-way starting lineup in the game.

Here is how it looks in the playoffs - quite different. Four of their 9 rotation players are positive, though one is negligibly so. The results hav

1. Al Horford, +20.7
2. Jayson Tatum, +15.8
3. Derrick White, +10.9
4. Payton Pritchard, +0.5
5. Jaylen Brown, -4.3
6. Robert Williams, -4.7
7. Daniel Theis, -10.4
8. Marcus Smart, -12.0
9. Grant Williams, -17.9

Horford and Tatum as the top two is unsurprising, but the rest is pretty interesting.

However, the minutes here are small, varying from Tatum's 332 to 3 guys all around 100 (Theis, Rob, Pritchard). So these numbers are probably more descriptive of what has happened than indicative of why it happened.
 

Eddie Jurak

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A championship team, having already failed on their home court once in the series, having battled like hell to get that game back on the road, would fucking damned sure take care of business on its home court in game 5.

The Celtics had a chance to break this one open in the second quarter, instead they relaxed and let Milwaukee back into it.

After 2 straight games where they got their asses kicked in the third quarter, and after the way they let up at the end of the half, you might think they would come out with some focus to start the third, but they didn't, taking almost 5 miutes before they started playing.

Their intermittent effort in the third quarter was enough to build up a decent lead though, and the 4th has been their quarter for 3 straight games.

Not tonight. Once again, they let up and Milwaukee comes back.

In the final minute, Giannis misses what would have been a tying free throw, and the Celtics, who were destroyed on the glass all game long, can't rebound.

In the final seconds they didn't really even compete.

The Celtics are the more talented team, the Buckes are the team that wants to win and knows how to.

This was an inexcusable loss.

I hate to say it, but Bucks in 6. They know how to handle these situations and they want it more.
 

Devizier

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I don’t think it’s anything to do with desire and a lot to do with maintaining composure, executing, etc. The Celtics got rattled late and that was the game.
 

Mooch

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I hate to say it, but Bucks in 6. They know how to handle these situations and they want it more.
Fuck that. This Celtics team has a ton of heart and the Bucks happened to have an abnormally hot night from three.

Celtics in 7. Dismiss this team at your own peril.
 

Cellar-Door

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That was a pretty epic collapse.
Celtics tried to run out the clock, and hunted matchups too much instead of doing it within real offense.
On defense lost shooters way to often...
But the biggest thing.....
Got murdered on the boards, and a lot of that is on Tatum and Grant. If we play small those guys have to box out and hit the defensive glass. They did neither.

That was a choke job, hopefully they can bounce back to win 2 in a row, but... they went from in a dominant position to significant underdogs through some really bad play late.
 

radsoxfan

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30 minutes 0 points, 2 assists and 1 rebound from Grant was a throwback special.

I have been so happy with his turnaround this year, but what a game to lay an absolute dud. Especially with Rob out. Brutal.
 

Cellar-Door

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Horford and Grant got 10 combined shots.... Tatum and Brown went 21/48. A throwback as well was them forcing Iso in the 4th instead of going with what one them game 4.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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This team just cannot focus on playing the game. Ime needs to start fining players every time they yell at the refs rather than get back on defense.

The "AND ONE!!1!" generation has really made this product less than ideal to watch at times. Just play the game. If you get a whistle, take advantage. If not, keep playing until you do.
 

kelpapa

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A championship team, having already failed on their home court once in the series, having battled like hell to get that game back on the road, would fucking damned sure take care of business on its home court in game 5.
The Lakers had home court against the Celtics in the 2010 finals. They split the first two, battled back and won one on the road, then lost game 5 at home. Do you remember what happened in that series?
 

Eddie Jurak

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The most shameful part of this is that they took the superhuman career effort that Al gave them in game 4 and pissed it away at the earliest opportunity.
 

soxin6

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This team just cannot focus on playing the game. Ime needs to start fining players every time they yell at the refs rather than get back on defense.

The "AND ONE!!1!" generation has really made this product less than ideal to watch at times. Just play the game. If you get a whistle, take advantage. If not, keep playing until you do.
It really is a huge problem. The more they complain, the fewer calls they get. Complaining will not get the refs to say ”you are right, let me call that foul now”.
 

soxin6

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The Lakers had home court against the Celtics in the 2010 finals. They split the first two, battled back and won one on the road, then lost game 5 at home. Do you remember what happened in that series?
Are you counting on the refs to gift the Celtics the series in the 4th quarter like Joey Crawford gifted a championship to Kobe and the Lakers?
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Lakers had home court against the Celtics in the 2010 finals. They split the first two, battled back and won one on the road, then lost game 5 at home. Do you remember what happened in that series?
Perkins got hurt and they Celtics didnt have a backup center.
 

Ed Hillel

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If Timelord was really sat “as a precaution,” that’s might go down as an all time Celtics playoff blunder. It’s just not a championship team without him, they don’t have the size and muscle underneath when he’s out and tonight was a clear demonstration why. He was the final piece.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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BaseballJones

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A championship team, having already failed on their home court once in the series, having battled like hell to get that game back on the road, would fucking damned sure take care of business on its home court in game 5.

The Celtics had a chance to break this one open in the second quarter, instead they relaxed and let Milwaukee back into it.

After 2 straight games where they got their asses kicked in the third quarter, and after the way they let up at the end of the half, you might think they would come out with some focus to start the third, but they didn't, taking almost 5 miutes before they started playing.

Their intermittent effort in the third quarter was enough to build up a decent lead though, and the 4th has been their quarter for 3 straight games.

Not tonight. Once again, they let up and Milwaukee comes back.

In the final minute, Giannis misses what would have been a tying free throw, and the Celtics, who were destroyed on the glass all game long, can't rebound.

In the final seconds they didn't really even compete.

The Celtics are the more talented team, the Buckes are the team that wants to win and knows how to.

This was an inexcusable loss.

I hate to say it, but Bucks in 6. They know how to handle these situations and they want it more.
Keep up the good analysis but please stop with the “they want it more” stuff.
 

BaseballJones

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View: https://twitter.com/annahorford/status/1524565361005367296?s=21&t=S_1RDH9Ex_T1JWc2r2Ahpg

Anna Horford: No excuses. That loss was on the Cs. F*cked around too much. I know this team can win in Milwaukee, though. Bookmark this tweet. #BelieveInBoston

They believed they had this game win, took it for granted, and then panicked when Milwaukee didn’t oblige them by laying down.
They had done so much right to get a 14 point lead. Then all of a sudden they played iso ball for like 8 straight minutes. Watching with my adult kids we counted the number of passes the Celtics offense had once the ball moved into the front court. Most possessions the last 8 minutes it was zero or one pass. Hardly ever more than that.
 

Auger34

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Horford and Grant got 10 combined shots.... Tatum and Brown went 21/48. A throwback as well was them forcing Iso in the 4th instead of going with what one them game 4.
Have to remove Grant from that combined shots stat. Put up White or Pritchard even. Grant was a mess for the 2nd straight game and didn’t deserve any more touches/shots than he got
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'll be fucking amazed if we get a game seven in Boston. Ime sat Brown for too long in the fourth.
Well, we have a lot of folks who think this series is being impacted by the officiating. Depending on which narrative people prefer, the refs may decide whether there is a game seven or not for you. I just think Boston will win without help but if you think the league skews things, I would guess another game of this series is better than moving on to the Bucks/Heat or 76ers.
 

Auger34

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Fuck that. This Celtics team has a ton of heart and the Bucks happened to have an abnormally hot night from three.

Celtics in 7. Dismiss this team at your own peril.
100% with you.

They’ve had so many opportunities to fold up shop and give up this year, both in season and during the playoffs. Every time they’ve fought back and played their best.

I will be shocked if this series doesn’t return to Boston. Even though it’s in Milwaukee, I expect the C’s to get a favorable whistle. More importantly, I truly believe they are the better team
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Even after tonight, what I don’t see is this team self-destructing and getting blown out if the going gets tough on Friday. They’re tougher than that and more talented than that. A loss would be a bummer, but that’s probably the only thing that would truly piss me off.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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This team just cannot focus on playing the game. Ime needs to start fining players every time they yell at the refs rather than get back on defense.

The "AND ONE!!1!" generation has really made this product less than ideal to watch at times. Just play the game. If you get a whistle, take advantage. If not, keep playing until you do.
Tatum scoring but immediately giving up an open three so he could whine (again, after a MADE basket) is so awful I almost wish it weren’t overshadowed by the dozen+ worse things that happened that quarter. It’s embarrassing to watch and tonight that kind of bullshit most likely lost them the series.

They are resilient but this group has really never dealt with a loss like this so who knows how they come back from it. Two games feels like 10 right now.
 

Cellar-Door

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Have to remove Grant from that combined shots stat. Put up White or Pritchard even. Grant was a mess for the 2nd straight game and didn’t deserve any more touches/shots than he got
He played 30 minutes. If he plays 30 minutes it means we were playing 5 out and him not getting shot attempts means we aren't stretching the floor. Even if he missed them, he either needs to be given those shots or benched.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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He played 30 minutes. If he plays 30 minutes it means we were playing 5 out and him not getting shot attempts means we aren't stretching the floor. Even if he missed them, he either needs to be given those shots or benched.
Yeah, he still should be taking every single one of his open corner threes. He should also be setting screens and standing in the corner on offense, and that’s it. He’s a poor ball handler and he’s not skilled enough to score in the paint against Portis and Lopez. Ime needs to rein him in.
 

Bleedred

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It's a heartbreaking loss because they did everything necessary to win until early in the 4th when they lost connection to 3 point shooters, which was really the only way MIL could come back, and then reversion to bad habits with 5 minutes remaining. Marcus has been fantastic this series, but he blew 4 possessions in the last 4 minutes, starting with the fake reaction to a fake shot to the head on defense, putting himself out of the play and forcing the rest of the defense to scramble, resulting in a wide open Milwaukee 3. I'm not blaming smart, but this is a fact.

As noted by others, Tatum's complaining to officials is affecting his ability to get back on defense and allowing Milwaukee offensive advantages. It's infuriating because he is otherwise, IMO, playing really well even given his poor FG% (other than game 3 of course).

I have not lost faith, but this one hurts.
 

BigSoxFan

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It's a heartbreaking loss because they did everything necessary to win until early in the 4th when they lost connection to 3 point shooters, which was really the only way MIL could come back, and then reversion to bad habits with 5 minutes remaining. Marcus has been fantastic this series, but he blew 4 possessions in the last 4 minutes, starting with the fake reaction to a fake shot to the head on defense, putting himself out of the play and forcing the rest of the defense to scramble, resulting in a wide open Milwaukee 3. I'm not blaming smart, but this is a fact.

As noted by others, Tatum's complaining to officials is affecting his ability to get back on defense and allowing Milwaukee offensive advantages. It's infuriating because he is otherwise, IMO, playing really well even given his poor FG% (other than game 3 of course).

I have not lost faith, but this one hurts.
Not only is Tatum’s complaining hurting the team’s positioning…but it’s taking a really, really good defender away from the action. I get having moments of frustration but his constant whining is getting so ridiculous to watch. I really hate that this is a major part of his game.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Not only is Tatum’s complaining hurting the team’s positioning…but it’s taking a really, really good defender away from the action. I get having moments of frustration but his constant whining is getting so ridiculous to watch. I really hate that this is a major part of his game.
And it doesn’t even work, which makes it all the worse.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Do we think Milwaukee stays smallish with Allen or goes big minutes with Portis and Lopez together on Friday? Seems to me that it would be advantageous to make a (likely) tight team beat you from three on the road in an elimination game. Celtics can run that lineup off the floor if they run their offense like they did in G2 but it hasn’t really happened in any consistent way since then. Outside shooting and rebounding are my major concerns for Friday, and I don’t see the rebounding improving unless Rob is back.
 

timelysarcasm

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Do we think Milwaukee stays smallish with Allen or goes big minutes with Portis and Lopez together on Friday? Seems to me that it would be advantageous to make a (likely) tight team beat you from three on the road in an elimination game. Celtics can run that lineup off the floor if they run their offense like they did in G2 but it hasn’t really happened in any consistent way since then. Outside shooting and rebounding are my major concerns for Friday, and I don’t see the rebounding improving unless Rob is back.
I actually think they can rebound better than they did tonight. They had some bad luck (bricks that went straight back, balls that went through their hands) and also poor technique on box outs.

I haven't done my rewatch yet, but I suspect I'll see plenty of times they just got out positioned and out hustled. They also didn't play Lopez as much, so the opportunities were there. They need to execute better, and I can imagine it'll be a point of emphasis. When the Bucks were struggling they were able to get a lot of second shots and that really hurt as the game wore on, never mind the ending.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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View: https://twitter.com/keithsmithnba/status/1524570288654016513?s=21&t=S_1RDH9Ex_T1JWc2r2Ahpg

Keith Smith: Re-watching the fourth quarter. The Celtics gave up at least four three-pointers because someone (usually Tatum, Brown or Grant) was barking at the refs and didn't get back on defense.

Inexcusable. This was the December Celtics. I haven’t thought this in months, but one has to wonder why Ime could not get his team to pay attention to the game.
MIL is running every chance they get because they know the Cs sometimes don't get back. I hope IME is showing them the clips on the plane ride.
 

BigSoxFan

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MIL is running every chance they get because they know the Cs sometimes don't get back. I hope IME is showing them the clips on the plane ride.
I’m sure it’ll sink in on the 959th team it gets brought up. This is in their DNA. They won’t shake it. And it might prove to be a fatal flaw.
 

nazz45

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Portis’s length/rebounding is a difference-maker (and where Rob Williams absence is felt most). Thought it was coaching malpractice he only played 14 minutes in a game 4. Hill has been a disaster in their small lineup.

Bucks did a good job pushing the ball after made baskets a few times to disrupt the Celtics half-court defense. Besides the ref complaining, they also have a tendency to bask in the glow of made baskets too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I actually think they can rebound better than they did tonight. They had some bad luck (bricks that went straight back, balls that went through their hands) and also poor technique on box outs.

I haven't done my rewatch yet, but I suspect I'll see plenty of times they just got out positioned and out hustled. They also didn't play Lopez as much, so the opportunities were there. They need to execute better, and I can imagine it'll be a point of emphasis. When the Bucks were struggling they were able to get a lot of second shots and that really hurt as the game wore on, never mind the ending.
40% Off Reb Rate tonight. That’s unheard of. It takes more than luck to dominate the glass like this.
 

timelysarcasm

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40% Off Reb Rate tonight. That’s unheard of. It takes more than luck to dominate the glass like this.
Right, which is why I mentioned how it was multiple things conflating to a bad night on the boards. I just don't think tonight was the best they can do rebounding, so I disagree with the assessment that the rebounding won't get any better than it was tonight. Also an unheard of rate, to me, signifies there were multiple factors. I expect the Bucks to rebound better than the Celtics, but the gap can be closed more than it was tonight.
 
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Jimbodandy

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Hate to be Mr. Optimist here, but the box score looks like a team that took care of the ball (10 TO) and shared it (25 assists on 42FGM).

Sure they got outrebounded, but Milwaukee hit 13 of 29 from 3, and we hit 10 of 31. It's that fucking simple. Make or miss.

Doesn't mean shit for the next one. Let's see what happens in game 6.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I’m sure it’ll sink in on the 959th team it gets brought up. This is in their DNA. They won’t shake it. And it might prove to be a fatal flaw.
Disagree with this. I get the skepticism but Boston has been consistently adjusting all season. They are in this spot precisely because they have levelled up as a group as well as individually.

Given their coaching body of work and attention to detail, I expect them to clean a lot of things up going into Saturday. That may all be for naught but its been a long while since I can recall this team executing poorly down the stretch in consecutive games.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Right, which is why I mentioned how it was multiple things conflating to a bad night on the boards. I just don't think tonight was the best they can do rebounding, so I disagree with the assessment that the rebounding won't get any better than it was tonight. Also an unheard of rate, to me, signifies there were multiple factors. I expect the Bucks to rebound better than the Celtics, but the gap can be closed more than it was tonight.
Portis is real good in this area with Lopez and Giannis behind him. Tonight, Portis had 7 but every Buck who played with the exception of George Hill was credited with at least 1 offensive rebound. Definitely an area to clean up and make adjustments but when you switch as much as the Celtics do your rebounders are often times going to be out of position.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Honest question from someone who doesn't watch every possession:

Is Jayson Tatum a REAL superstar in the NBA? Ignoring the jersey sales stat and his occasionally transcendent performances in individual games, is he TREATED like a superstar in the league? Does he get a lot of calls? Is that why he complains so much? Or does he not get the treatment he feels he should be getting given his status in the league? To me, the answer is no to the first question, which kind of, by default, means it's the latter reason.

Setting aside the finer points of the bullshit that is the fact that there are two sets of rules when it comes to in-game officiating, should he be getting that treatment? Do we want him getting the same calls LeBron, Giannis, KD, etc. get, or do we want those players to be officiated like Tatum seemingly is?

It honestly, from the outside looking in, feels sometimes like the NBA knows he's a big star and a future de facto face of the game already, but isn't ready to commit to "pushing" him (to use a pro wrestling term) to the top because he's not playing for one of their favored teams. And, yes, I know Boston SHOULD be one of those teams, but it still feels like a second- or third-tier city in the league's eyes, for whatever reason (racist fanbase allegations, cold weather city, not as popular a team as it once was within the city, not a ratings draw nationally, or other), and I wonder if that works against him.

Even if you disagree on the NBA's view of Boston as a franchise, the question remains as to how much star treatment Tatum gets. Is he doomed to play second fiddle of sorts so long as there's a sexier option (Greek Freak! LeBron! Steph! KD! Leonard!) to promote?