Exactly. They need to get those big bodies in motion. They weren't doing that enough.
Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion
- Thread starter tims4wins
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Yep, he did play well in the 4th of that game, went 4/7 for 9 points. Certainly wasn't supernova, like we've seen him get at various other times though.
I just don't buy that these guys can play 40 minutes of NBA playoff basketball with regularity when they aren't eating or drinking at all for 6+ hours before a game. At least, that's what I'm hoping.
My point was they missed ALL their midrange shots. Obviously the Bucks made it difficult at the rim.
I agree though. Getting Brook Lopez and Portis in rotation and sinking even a of those midrange shots and they best the Bucks.
I expect plenty of adjustments.
That is the path to victory that the Bucks want the C’s to pursue. It plays into their strengths. Udoka has to counter with adjustments that put the C’s into a better position to score effectively.
The series is not a three point contest, but Milwaukee wins when the C’s approach it as one. Maybe shooting .7% higher on 15 more 3 PTA is actually a losing proposition?
Any idea what those adjustments might be? I honestly can't think of much that's going to pull Giannis or Lopez out of the paint other than guys hitting their outside shots.
How are you not getting that the celtics lost this game because they shot 10/34 for 2, almost all of those shots in the paint? If you shoot 16 more 3s than a team and you also make a higher percentage you're going to win any single game a vast majority of the time, especially when it doesn't come with giving up more points at the line.
The Celtics will need to go 5 wide The Bucks have 3 shot blockers (GA/BL/BP) & a tenacious/strong PG in the lane.
Just don't turn the ball over so damn much and they'll be fine
Spread them out, dribble drive, draw and kick out for step-in 3s
PP/Grant will need to shoot from the Corners (~ 50% this season)
The point is the Bucks are making scoring 2s incredibly hard, anbd are playing two shot blockers all the time. Most of the shots in the paint were tough attempts.
Clippers were the only higher seed. 2017 Celtics last team before that to lose 2 at home then win the series.
The way to beat Milwaukee all year has been to hit your 3s. First because you can build a math problem on them, even if you don't hit at a really high rate, the differential builds up, and 2, if you do start hitting at a high rate, they have to adjust and it weakens their strong interior defense.
The real thing that was missing was hitting corner 3s, teams killed MIL by hitting corner 3s this year, the Celtics have one of the best corner 3 shooters in the league... he took 4 shots, none of them from the corner, two were from the side, he went 1-2.
Overall the Celtics took 5 corner 3s, and hit 3 of them.
The Celtics didn't take too many 3s, they just took too many bad 3s.
Marcus took 6, all from the top, wings, many deep... missed them all but 1 (the one closes to being side/corner).
Pritchard took 8, 7 from the top, all deep many early clock and not in the offense he made 1 of those 7, went 1-1 from the corner.
Jaylen went 1-7 from deep along the arc, 2-2 from corner/side.
I thought MiL's pressure of the guys bringing the ball upreally bothered the Cs and, as Ime said, sped them up.
I also thought JT wasn't ready for how hard MIL was attacking him off PnR. Not much drop coverage there.
Finally, the worst part of the Jays off-games were the TOs - MIL killed it in transition/
Next game is going to be super physical.
I also thought JT wasn't ready for how hard MIL was attacking him off PnR. Not much drop coverage there.
Finally, the worst part of the Jays off-games were the TOs - MIL killed it in transition/
Next game is going to be super physical.
I'm aware that's the point, that's why I've been arguing that they lost the game because of that, and not because they took 50 3s and should have actually taken more than 50. They aren't going to beat the bucks by driving at Giannis Lopez and Portis.
This goes high on the list of things that were infuriating about yesterday's game.
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1520854651213684738?s=20&t=dB8KnL3IBAhsiwKudUF_5A
Keith Smith: Ime Udoka has said that the Bucks picking up fullcourt and picking up very high in the halfcourt defense got the Celtics going too quickly into their offense.
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1520855956594335748?s=20&t=dB8KnL3IBAhsiwKudUF_5A
Keith Smith: Ime Udoka said one adjustment is on him and the coaching staff. He said they need to find ways to "play against their physicality". Udoka said he can do a better job putting the Celtics ballhandlers in better positions to alleviate pressure from the Bucks defense.
Really, Ime? You had no idea that Milwaukee might bring full court pressure? There are, according to you, adjustments that could be made, but you didn't make them?
Full court pressure isn't some mysterious new strategy that Milwaukee cooked up in the interval between rounds. It's been a part of basketball for decades.
Was yesterday the last day that Jaylen Brown would like have been fasting, or the first day he was no longer fasting? Anyone know?
I distinctly had the feeling watching the opening minutes that the Celtics were shook by the Bucks conceding the 3. You could almost feel them thinking, "If they're giving us this, maybe we shouldn't be playing into their hands by taking it"— and this seed of doubt contributed to a number of early misses from beyond the arc (remember, they were terrible early on from 3)*, which then cascaded into general hesitancy and over-thinking-it on the offensive end.
I think Udoka has to stake out a clear strategy for this young team in Game 2. Either "take the damn open 3... keep taking it... we will hit enough to win the series" or go the other direction and turn down the Bucks invitation to shoot 3's and try to unlock the mid-range 2-pointer part of the court. I have no idea which is the right tactic— it almost feels like it doesn't matter so much as long as they get one clear directive or the other and stop living in their own heads so much.
* Edit: looking at the game log, I see that they were actually no worse in the first half from 3 than in the second half— so this was a trick of memory. But I stand by the overall point that they seemed psyched out by the open looks from 3, not sure whether they should take the bait or not.
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Let’s not forget with as bad as the Celtics played, almost 85% of this game was within 6 points.
They played terribly. They got out-physicaled (roll with it). They couldn’t make open 3s. They lost composure at times.
They will adjust. Ime will set them up for success. They will roll in game 2. Celts come out angry and poised on Tuesday.
They played terribly. They got out-physicaled (roll with it). They couldn’t make open 3s. They lost composure at times.
They will adjust. Ime will set them up for success. They will roll in game 2. Celts come out angry and poised on Tuesday.
I don't think the answer is to just do what Milwaukee wants. I think if the Celtics were shook by anything it was the Bucks clogging up the paint (sort of the same thing as conceding the three but from a different perspective).
One thing I think the Celtics need to learn is this: the open, above the break three will be there for them almost whenever they want it. 24 seconds is more than enough time to look for something better and then fall back on an above the break three if need be. I hope that when the Celtics talk about "getting sped up," as several of them have said, that is part of what they meant. Also, not all threes are created equal:
The Celtics shot 18 of 50 from three, for 36%. But looking at the chart, that breaks down to 7 of 10 on corner threes and 11 of 40 on above the break threes.
If it must be threes, spend some shot clock time working on creating corner threes and only if that doesn't work fall back on the above the break three that the Bucks are conceding.
Another thing is shot selection when the game got away. The Celtics have their bench out starting the fourth down by 8, 78-70. Here is their offense:
- Pritchard missed above the break pullup three
- Brown missed 2-point jumper
- White fouled while shooting, hits hit FTs
- Pritchard missed above the break step back three
- Pritchard missed above the break pullup three
- Pritchard missed above the break pullup three
Almost their whole offense for over 3 minutes was Pritchard creating long above the break threes for himself. That can't happen.
Rotations seemed a bit messed up yesterday. There were a few times when they seemed to have a pretty weak lineup on the floor. Smart’s injuries certainly must have been a factor. I don’t know if Brown was limited at all. Williams started, but he probably played less than pre-injury, I haven’t seen the box score. There was a lot of Derrick White, but I wouldn’t say he played poorly. The Pritchard sequence was fairly brutal, because as was pointed out above, the game was lost during that stretch.
I also thought there was a lot of Tatum complaining about the refs.
I also thought there was a lot of Tatum complaining about the refs.
Unless, of course, PP hits those threes and it's a whole new game.
PP was wide open. He's got to take those shots. If he's not going to take wide-open 3s, the Cs are playing 4 on 5 and there's no reason for PP to be in. Frankly, he hit tougher shots against BRK. They didn't go in. I'll bet on him making those.
He doesn't say that he had no idea they would bring pressure. He said that they need to make adjustments. You seem irrationally angry about this loss. It sucks that they lost the game, but this wasn't going to be a sweep anyway.
They were not prepared for this game, simple as that. Milwaukee played the way Milwaukee plays, and there was no indication whatsoever that the Celtics were ready for it. None.
“We can adjust to full court pressure, but we didn’t do it during the game.”
“We knew they were going to be physical, we can respond to that, but did we respond to it? No, we let them push us around for 48 minutes.”
“We knew what their defensive games plan was going to be, and there are things we can do against it. Did we do this things? No.”
I almost wonder if the Celtics had a shit week of disinterested practice and Ime decided that the only way to fix this was to let them do it their way and get their heads handed to them.
Me too, I'd bet on open 3s from Pritchard (PP entered very early so that appears to be a bet IME is making)
The Celtic's have to
1. work for the Corner 3
2. dribble drive, draw, kick to an above the break step-in 3
Bucks are exceptional at rim protection in the halfcourt, and they collapse hard. Getting open 3s is a highly efficient shot and should be embraced by the JAYs, Horford, PP, Grant. We need Marcus/White to be penetrators that dish.
On defense, the Celtic guards also need to pick up ball pressure after makes.
That Pritchard sequence was brutal but the first two were almost desperation shots because the offense could get absolutely nothing going without Tatum (and Smart). Even with the starters I thought a lot of their offensive problems came from lack of penetration due to the combination of shot blockers at the rim and the ball pressure everyone has pointed out. Their drive and kick wasnt working even when they tried because they got completely swallowed up in the paint
Bucks went 37/90 fg attempts to the C’s 28/84. And the C’s were 18/50 from 3. That means only 10/34 from 2. And only 21 assists to their avg 25 which was what around 28 since their turnaround?
So very little penetration and dish outs with the drop coverage the Bucks employ. But that’s going to be key to get good looks. That and good ball movement - both of which were notably absent in game 1. Can they get penetration? Long arms of the Bucks force turnovers here. C’s were sloppy but 18 turnovers is pretty bad.
So very little penetration and dish outs with the drop coverage the Bucks employ. But that’s going to be key to get good looks. That and good ball movement - both of which were notably absent in game 1. Can they get penetration? Long arms of the Bucks force turnovers here. C’s were sloppy but 18 turnovers is pretty bad.
For sure, the coach definitely wanted to lose a game in a 7 game series. The best way to advance in the playoffs is with statement losses.
Jesus christ it was one fucking game.
The Celtics played good defense most of the game. They made things very tough for Giannis and the Bucks in general had a lot of turnovers. Holliday and Allen were open a bit too much and they weren't great in transition but those seem like minor adjustments (and cutting down turnovers on offense). If they play like that I won't worry at all about the D.
On offense they really struggled, but there are signs of hope:
The Celtics played good defense most of the game. They made things very tough for Giannis and the Bucks in general had a lot of turnovers. Holliday and Allen were open a bit too much and they weren't great in transition but those seem like minor adjustments (and cutting down turnovers on offense). If they play like that I won't worry at all about the D.
On offense they really struggled, but there are signs of hope:
- Refs weren't calling anything in the paint. I thought Tatum definitely got hacked a few times on drives and Lopez / Giannis were really ragdolling people when getting position or going for boards. Multiple times someone on the Cs had position and the Bucks guys committed fouls to go for rebounds, very frustrating.
- This took the Cs out of the game a bit -- they need to be better, but refs also need to be better and other crews probably will be
- Smart was not at 100% all game which hurt their rhythm. Hopefully he gets hit less next game
- Brown was terrible, obviously he's going to have trouble driving against the bigs but he was making poor decisions all game. He did play a little better in the 4th but hopefully he will be better. If he's not 100% and being tentative because of his hamstring I think they should start Grant instead, but no way to know from here.
- I thought they should have been better-prepared for the Bucks, but they have a day to make adjustments on offense and I like the coaching staff's ability to do that. A bit more of the midrange game (particularly with Tatum and Grant), focusing on ball movement, and then something to counter the full court pressure are all adjustments that should help.
This is an excellent breakdown of where the Celtics' offense had issues, many correctable:
View: https://twitter.com/MoDakhil_NBA/status/1520982749418450944
Common themes...
Brown over-penetrating
Brown not having a plan and not looking up
Guards not playing their role and taking quick 3s
Guys challenging shot blockers or double teams instead of kicking to the open man
View: https://twitter.com/MoDakhil_NBA/status/1520982749418450944
Common themes...
Brown over-penetrating
Brown not having a plan and not looking up
Guards not playing their role and taking quick 3s
Guys challenging shot blockers or double teams instead of kicking to the open man
Ramadan ended at dusk, yesterday. Game was midday so Brown was presumably still fasting. The bigger issue than food was likely not drinking water.
I was being hyperbolic. The fact remains, they were not ready for and could not adjust to a full court press, though Ime said they could do it for game 2. We’ll see. But maybe they should have been ready for a basic NBA tactic to be deployed against them?
Wait, saying one single playoff loss is an embarrassment to the entire history of the franchise was hyperbolic?
It seemed like a reasoned take to me.
Another thing - this looked a bit like game 5 of the Nets series, except that the Celtics were in the role of the Nets.
Close for most of the game (as the 4 Brooklyn games were), they outmuscled us (as we did Brooklyn), they took our best players out of the game (as we took Durant and Irving).
Close for most of the game (as the 4 Brooklyn games were), they outmuscled us (as we did Brooklyn), they took our best players out of the game (as we took Durant and Irving).
Yeah. My glass-half-full take is that the Celts have had a very soft last month, with quasi-meaningless late-season games... stars resting on both sides... followed by an unimposing series against the Nets. So, maybe they needed to get "smacked in the mouth" as Horford put it to adjust to true playoff intensity. I think it's fair to blame Udoka for not having them ready... but it's also a young team. These things happen.
My glass-half empty worry is that they come out determined to assert themselves physically against the Bucks... and immediately get whistled for a lot of ticky-tack fouls by a crew that wants to assert early control over the game, being aware of how physical the last game got.
To me, the single most encouraging thing (in what was really a disgusting viewing experience from end to end) was that we played Giannis well enough to win. I thought the team got mentally tired out in the third quarter by all the shit they were contending with, and that's when he started bouncing the ball off the backboard to himself and dunking it, etc... but up until then, he'd missed a lot of shots and was merely good, not other-worldly. And, as captured extensively by the broadcast team, Horford had some really good moments against him.
As much damage as he did at moments— especially towards the end— I think we can win with that level of Giannis production throughout the series. (Holiday, however, is another story.)
Edit: well, that, plus the fact that almost every possible thing went wrong and yet the game was within single digits most of the way.
As much damage as he did at moments— especially towards the end— I think we can win with that level of Giannis production throughout the series. (Holiday, however, is another story.)
Edit: well, that, plus the fact that almost every possible thing went wrong and yet the game was within single digits most of the way.
How many athletes fully adhere to the Ramadan restrictions? Everyone made a big deal out of it with a couple UFC fighters recently finding it incredible how they could perform……only to find out later than they “make up” the days at the end as to not affect their competition. I’d imagine very few, if any, eliminate water during the day. Food isn’t nearly as much of an issue with the popularity of fasting.
On offense they played like the first half of the season. Ran to their spots around the 3 arc, barely moved around, settled for early open threes or rushed shots late in the clock. More off ball movement especially along the baseline and some successful backdoor cuts might help with that wall in the key. The Bucks are camping towards the foul line not the restricted area.
Double-digit Game 1 Statement Losses are the new market inefficiency!.... that being said, @Eddie Jurak does a lot of solid work around here, he readily admits he was "hyperbolic" after the loss.
This felt like the worst loss in months, and fans are annoyed. IME will make adjustments, he's done a great job all season long. 7-game series take an eternity and now expect this to go the full enchilada.
Food fasting from sunrise to sunset can be healthy. People (the media) don't understand the benefits because there is so much misinformation on food/nutrition that's been drilled into our heads since birth
Doris: food fasting is making him dizzy! while the network cues the Dominos, Mountain Dew and Doordash adverts
OTOH I'm not a fan of water fasting, especially when playing sports, in high altitudes, or in the desert (like Los Angeles). It can lead to dehydration and cause cramping to the hamstrings/calves leading to pulls. It may be a contributor to Jaylen's hammy issue.
Just because I'm procrastinating, here are screen shots from 7 of the 8 3Ps that PP's took. (Note for some reason NBA.com doesn't have the PP's 2nd 3P, which he hit.) Because of board restrictions, I am posting them in multiple replies.
Other than the one taken with the shot clock winding down, do people really think PP should not have taken any of these? They will go down.
Other than the one taken with the shot clock winding down, do people really think PP should not have taken any of these? They will go down.
Attachments
There's a good conversation to be had here about just how important proper hydration is, but I don't want to sidetrack things too much. I'll just say that at some point in my 30s I really started noticing the difference proper hydration makes, and in my 40s it makes a big enough difference that I consciously drink water throughout the day and feel much worse if I don't.
The idea that a professional athlete would water fast seems insane to me, though I admit I was often dehydrated in my athletic days. It's good to be young and impervious.
These are good points. As an example, they only went to the Rob Lob once. I definitely felt like there were a few times when Rob was looking to sneak in for an oop while Lopez or Giannis were looking another direction and whoever had the ball missed him. I think they got a little rattled and tense in general for sure and were a little too scared of making mistakes. This kind of attitude and mental stuff can be fixed but I can see it being hard to address in-game when emotions are high.
As soon as Smart got banged up, the wheels came off the offense. When a team presses in the backcourt like that, you have to make them pay. To start the game, Marcus drove off the defensive pressure a number of times, but once he started losing the use of various appendages, Boston reverted to early season bad offense, taking lots of time to get into sets, not sharing and swinging the ball, not taking strong drives to the hoop, and missing wide open shots.
Thanks for the link; interesting. I'll just note one more time that I completely disagree with his take on PP's 3P (see below for video). JT sets a pick; Carter goes under the screen. If PP doesn't take that shot, JT is never going to get any space as he's basically sandwiched between Holiday and Carter.
PP is going to make that shot probably 50+% of the time IMO. PP is on the team to shoot and ended up having the best 3P% of everyone on the team. I think PP is going to have a big game in game 2.
Unfortunately, the wheels came off a lot earlier. Smart didn't get banged up (the first time— arm) until a minute before the half, at which point Bucks were already ahead 54-46. The reality is that the C's didn't have an answer for Bucks' pressure with or without Smart.
I say this just to defuse the idea that a healthy Smart will automatically solve the problem in Game 2. It will help, sure, but additional adjustments are needed as well.
Thank you!!! It’s odd the amount of people acting like PP was just chucking up bad shots or was put in bad positions by other players.
From what I remember, the only one that had anyone close to him was the one with the shot clock winding down. All of the other ones were open, in rhythm shots. The type of shots that Pritchard was drilling in the last series. I’ve got full confidence that if PP gets more of those shots that he will start draining them
I fully expect a LOT more “Rob Lobs”. Lopez can’t jump with Rob and he’s often the one camped right in front of the bucket. The Bucks will have to counter by moving Giannis to the dunkers spot which should open up more driving space and force Milwaukee into more rotations.
The Celtics got punched in the mouth a bit yesterday but I am fully confident that they adjust, come out and win Game 2 pretty handily
