Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion
- Thread starter tims4wins
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If you aren’t going to give an effusive take on their performance tonight then you simply have to stop the negativity routine.
Again, this is the same guy who’s first take about a game 3 on the road against Brooklyn was to complain about the team’s effort.
White couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, but it's much to his credit that with Smart out, the team barely missed a beat offensively (and had another stellar defensive game). The 4 days between games 2 and 3 was tremendously irritating when the schedule came out, but it's definitely a win for Boston now (assuming Middleton doesn't miraculously come back before the end).
Amazing first half from Jaylen Brown tonight. Not just the scoring, which was next level, but he also played some great team defense (off ball defense from JB - can you believe it?!?!) and flashed some great playmaking as well. I think I remember one possession where he turned the ball over, but aside from that - it seemed like about as perfect a half of basketball as you could see. Really excited to see him come back and dominate after Game 1.
Second half was meh - although he did still have some big plays here and there. But, this game was won in the first half.
Was also super impressed with Grant Williams tonight. I know this has been a really good season for him - no question, it's just amazing where he was tonight vs. where he was a year ago. The defense! Elite 3 point shooting! Just an incredible game from him.
Second half was meh - although he did still have some big plays here and there. But, this game was won in the first half.
Was also super impressed with Grant Williams tonight. I know this has been a really good season for him - no question, it's just amazing where he was tonight vs. where he was a year ago. The defense! Elite 3 point shooting! Just an incredible game from him.
When a player gets into foul trouble, one of the coaches needs to tattoo on their eyelids "NO TAKE FOULS!". It was a brain fart, everyone has them - but just incredibly frustrating in a game where backcourt depth is really weak, to have White get into foul trouble early - especially on a dumb take foul.
Of course, we saw Giannis pressuring the ball 35 feet from the basket (which should have resulted in fouls for him) - so other players do dumb stuff, too, and he is even more valuable to the Bucks than White is to Boston.
Is defending the Giannis pick and roll such an easy fix? (I honestly don’t know.). Seemed like once the refs decided Giannis could push his way around down low, the Celts were really stuck.
I hate when the offense gets static and they settle for threes or 1v1 contested jumpers. Keep driving. Would love to see Al with a few short range shots. Grant put up a few tonight and I thought they were the right reads.
SVG spokeabout GW being a future DPOY candidate Who would have thunk that last year or even two years ago?
I'm not exactly sure how NBA.com calculates these stats but in G1, MIL had 27 points off TOs and 28 fast break points. In G2, MIL had 17 points off TOs and 6 fast break points.
Up to this point, MIL has had a pretty hard time scoring on BOS in the half-court. Unless MIL finds something that works - and I have to admit, they some late success using Giannis as the screener that hopefully Ime will figure out how to counter - if BOS limits MIL in transition, BOS is going to win.
Taking care of the ball is BOS's #1 priority IMO.
BTW, the MIL player that is most impressing me is Jrue Holiday. It's amazing he doesn't get more kudos for how good he is.
+1... Celtic turnovers is the most impt stat to keep an eye on
If they can get back to moving the ball/reversing it instead of dribblefests they will find the open Corner3
Grant or Horford are both capable of slowing Giannis down in isolation, no help is needed. That's HUGE
He played well his rookie year. Played a rotational role in the bubble playoffs. Last year's weight gain sunk him from the jump...or lack of jump
A lot more corner threes tonight, due to more aggressive drive and kicks.
Grant was amazing, Jaylen had a monster first half, had 30/5/6 on insane efficiency, and Tatum was a monster late, finished with 29/8 on a 65% TS.
Grant was amazing, Jaylen had a monster first half, had 30/5/6 on insane efficiency, and Tatum was a monster late, finished with 29/8 on a 65% TS.
I can't believe the path Grant has been on. From locking up Lowry in the bubble on that final defensive stand, to chipotle Grant who I dubbed the poor man's Sullinger to this. Unbelievable
+1. I'm incredibly impressed with how he scores inside against bigs. He has an amazing ability to leverage his body against theirs and get his shots up almost uncontested, and he often follows up his misses with easy put backs because he seems so strong that even big players bounce off him a little. His defense is phenomenal. Such a great player that flies under the radar
Agree fully on the turnovers, keep them out of transition and they're very beatable.
It's been interesting to watch Grant and Horford do so well with Giannis, but RW doesn't seem to have the lateral quickness to stay in front of him. First real chink in Rob's defensive ability I've seen.
The praise the commentators had for Grant was really something. Announcers can have a tendency to overrate role players if they just did something good, but it's clear that around the league people have noticed what kind of player he has turned into.
Yeah I fully admit I missed the boat on him. I thought he was non NBA player when they drafted him.
yea TL doesn't have the body type to slow Giannis down. Neither does Tatum or Brown. There are only a few players in the NBA with the skill to guard GA. Making Granite's 35 minutes tonight his new minimum every game in this series going forward.
Grant's getting paid this Summer, and we're going to be happy when Brad writes that check. He's a 40% 3pt shooter, that is capable of guarding/locking down Durant, Giannis, Jrue and Kyrie in playoff games.
For awhile we've talked about Rob and his next development step. Seemed like the 15 foot jumper was the obvious evolution. Now it's playing in a defensive stance (just wider and lower) and using his length in conjunction with his feet on perimeter switches. If he does that, I don't really care if he ever shoots jumpers well. Rob as someone who can do a fraction of what horford does defensively on the perimeter would fully unlock the Celtics defense going forward.
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I wonder if slightly decreased lateral quickness is a consequence of the knee injury. It does feel like Rob is a little less switchable than he normally is.
This needs to be memorialized here. Holy hell its glorious.
View: https://twitter.com/celtics/status/1521630670702870528?t=t_nXo57RfWmJeUi6Z6gmKw&s=19
View: https://twitter.com/celtics/status/1521630670702870528?t=t_nXo57RfWmJeUi6Z6gmKw&s=19
RW seems to struggle in the [very rare] instances in which he's matched up with a player of similar or superior athleticism who also has offensive skill. It's a pretty short list, basically just Giannis and Bam that I can remember. His primary value in guarding Giannis and Milwaukee is still the same as it is against pretty much every team - play off ball and make shots in the paint more difficult.
yea this is correct, in order to somewhat guard/slow down Giannis, you have to be big/strong, get low/wide, move your feet, and show your hands. Grant/Horford do that well (even Marcus can do it) the rest of the
Tatum/TL are excellent off-ball and help defenders. You don't really want them taking the physical pounding that's being inflicted on Grant/Horford (both can also guard Bam effectively)
When they play a certain way, it tends to work better for them.
My theory now is that on Sunday, the Celtics' defense was still in 'Nets' mode. On defense, they played Giannis somewhat similar to how they played Durant. They repeatedly threw doubles at him, and he repeatedly (12 assists) burned them by kicking to open shooters. Today they spent a ton of the game with Horford or Grant singled up on him and every shooter covered. Milwaukee only attempted 18 threes in the game, 8 in the first half, and hit only 3. There was also one play where Giannis was in the corner and the Celtics just left him wide open and let him shoot (brick). Totally different approach. On top of that their defense came out and played with ferocity. Like watching 2 different teams.
Offensively, within the first few minutes the Celtics set a different tone by playing a different way. They were 0 for 4 for the entire game on Sunday from the midrange... today they looked for and took wide open midrange shots early. They did not take the first open 3 that presented itself, giving it up and often getting a better shot later - often a corner three. There was one time they worked the ball in to Al in a very slow developing post up and Lopez blocked him. But that was the exception. Most of the time they played fast, including pushing the ball, and did not settle for the first open shot.
Jaylen Brown exploded in this one. He led the way with 25 points in the first half on 9-10 shooting, 5-5 from three. Tenacious defense. He cooled off considerably in the second half, scoring only 5 points (all in the 4th), missing most of his shots, and (most concerning) grabbing at the hamstring. Brown taking and knocking down a couple of wide open mid range shots set the tone in this game. He also had 6 assists.
Jayson Tatum started more slowly, with only 11 in the first half, but helped the Celtics hold their second half lead by scoring 18 to finish with 29. On top of that he led the team with 8 assist and had 3 steals and a block. An example of the smarter offense the Celtics ran came on a second half play where Taum drove, was shut down, and kicked to Brown. Brown, instead of taking the quick three, also drove and was shut down. The crowd of Bucks was basically still there from the Tatum drive so Brown had nowhere to go. But, after Tatum's drive, he relocated to the corner and no one on the Bucks paid any attention to him - Brown kicks it to him and he knocks down the three. Brown had a three he could have taken but the Celtics offense created a much better one.
Al had a double double (11-11) and added 3 assists, 4 steals, a block, and some excellent defense. He was often guarding Giannis, but also more than held his own on a couple of possessions wher ehe was switched onto Holliday.
Rob looked much more like himself (though he is still not all the way there) tonight. In 25 minutes, he had 10 points (4 of 5 shooting), hit a pair of free throws, and had 5 rebounds, an assist and 2 blocks. One of his baskets was a statement dunk off a fast break feed from Tatum. Remember the Horford play where Al raced the length of the court after a steal and Tatum fed him for a dunk? This was the more athletic Rob version of that play. Another basket was a short (12 feet?) baseline jumper. Someone drove, Rob's man helped leaving Rob open but too far to dunk, and Rob didn't hesitate in taking and hitting that shot. He needs to get better to reach his regular season level but he looks like his is on that path.
Derrick White was more or less the most disappointing Celtic. I was hoping for a statement game from him, and instead we got another bad shooting game from him. He also dealt with foul trouble which limited him usage and forced them to play Pritchard. In 28 minutes he did not score, shooting 0-6 from the field. He picked up 3 fouls in the first half, then a fourth midway through the third on an intentional take foul that he just shouldn;t have done. Then picked up his fifth midway through the fourth. This mattered because it meant Pritchard had to play more and the Celtics team defense was just much better with White.White did have 5 assists, 4 rebounds, and a steal.
Grant Williams played the best game of basketball of his career. In 35 minutes, he scored 21 points on 7 of 14 shooting (6 of 9 from three), along with 5 rebounds and 2 assists. When in the game with Giannis, it was often Grant's responsibility to guard him one on one and he was outstanding for most of the game. He likely earned himself millions of dollars. Giannis was clearly frustrated for much of the game, though he did get going in the second half with 23 points on 9-15 shooting. In the first half, various Celtics but mostly Grant held him to 5. Giannis is used to just muscling people but he couldn;t push Grant anywhere. Grant was a rock.
Payton Pritchard played 24 minutes due to the Celtics using a 7-man rotation and to White's foul trouble. In the first hald he hit both of his threes, in the second half he missed both. part of it was the shot quality. Part of it might be that he's not up to the moment right now - even though he was for a couple of games against Brooklyn. But the big limitation of Pritchard is defense. He was a -2 tonight, the only Celtic without a positive +/-. Everyone else in the rotation: Rob +12, Al +14, Brown +16, Tatum +21, Grant +22, White +22. Most notable there is White, who played all the non-garbage minutes when Pritchard was off and led the team in +/-. The Celtics were just a different (and worse) defensive team with Pritchard in, likely because there are matcups they need to keep him out of.
Anyway, all in all this was a 180 degree turnarouns from Sunday's game. Although there were times in the second half where they lapsed into some bad habits, they were generally just so much better.
I do see a few causes for concern, both in this series and, if they advance, going forward.
1. Jaylen Brown was a shell of his first half self in the second half and he was grabbiong at the hamstring a lot. Fortunately for the Celtics they have 3 days off before game 3, but after that all the games are on the every other day schedule and the hamstring now loks like it will be a chronic problem the Celtics have to manage carefully for the rest of their playoff run, however long it lasts.
2. Marcus Smart was out. This is probably not a major concern because of the upcoming 3 days off and because Smart's injury is not chronic like Jaylen's hamstring. Still, this game showed that they need Smart. Hopefully, he is back on Saturday and good to go the rest of the way.
3. Derrick White is just buried in a deep shooting slump. Hopefully he can get out of it, but I had hoped last night would be the game and no such luck.
4. Payton Pritchard's miniutes need to be carefully managed because of his defense. With Smart out and no other ballhandlers on the team besides White, he was overexposed against the Bucks. This is a non-issue with Smart and White both healthy, but might be a fatal flaw with a 7 man rotation and one of them out.
5. The terrible officiating. Sunday's game had a few moments of "ref show" and last night's game was worse. Part of the reason Gainnis got himself untracked and had a 23 point second half is because the refs gave him the full star treatment while nickel and diming various Celtic players with cheap calls. Giannis had only 3 fouls called on him all game long and a fair official might have called 8. He was just allowed to run guys over leading with an arm when driving for most of the second half. Two of the fouls on him came when he delivered an elbow to Grant's jaw on a drive and when he literally ran over Jaylen Brown in a loose ball situation. Anything short of elbow-to-the-chin y Giannis was basically legal contact, but when Jayson did a bit of a similar clear defender out with an arm an offensive foul was called followed by Tatum picking up a tech.
I thought the refs were in clear "let's give the Bucks every chance to come back mode," and maye they came close to "success." Theis was not in the rotation tonight and both Rob (25 minutes) and Al (37) ended the game with 5 fouls. Had they fouled out, it would have been a cold Theis in crunch time. It was so bad I worry that the refs will be out to give the Bucks the games in Milwaukee.
It's a fair point. I only got halfway through last night so didn't post until now.
I do think Pritchard looked a bit nervous last night, probably because Smart was out and he was up one slot on the depth chart and he was asked to do things that are beyond his usual role. When there was a break in the action (free throws, endless foul reviews) several times you could see him yelling across the court and gesturing to the coaches ("I should do this here, right?"). Hopefully he can settle down with Smart back because there's a real opportunity for a guy with his skill set to come in and absolutely kill the Bucks for a few minutes.
I think Pritchard, at least at this point in his career and against this opponent, is generally up to the 8th man, 3rd ballhandler role but not the 7th man, 2nd-ballhandler role.
It made sense to be low on him coming out of the draft, but one thing I think people missed, because of his height, is that he's not that undersized. He has an 8-9 standing reach iirc, blocks more shots than you'd think, and contests shots very, very well. He also was young for a 3-year college guy, and we've seen him improve at a lot of things as he's matured.
I think Al should be getting more love. His playoff performances have been remarkable to me. I certainly didn't expect this level of excellence and extended playing time when the Celtics brought him back.
Regular season 4th quarter TS, versus 4th quarter TS through these 6 playoff games.
Jaylen 48%/72%
Tatum 59%/75%
It’s amazing how great they’ve both been in the 4th of these games. Also, this is potential assists leaders per game in the playoffs, the leap he’s made as a passer is legitimately mind blowing.
Jaylen 48%/72%
Tatum 59%/75%
It’s amazing how great they’ve both been in the 4th of these games. Also, this is potential assists leaders per game in the playoffs, the leap he’s made as a passer is legitimately mind blowing.
It's not an issue of quickness, it's an issue of strength / power. TL is fine guarding Giannis until Giannis drops his shoulder into his rib cage. At that point, TL is knocked off balance and he can't recover to contest. That's opposed to Al and Grant who can both take those hits and maintain their position.
And before people yell that dropping one's shoulder into a defender should have been a charge (and it was when I grew up playing; wish I had learned that trick), Tatum does it all of the time too.
Agreed, TL got pushed off the play several times by GA and that is going to happen on most every GA drive whether or not it is legal. he's going to be better off as weakside help most of the time, with one of the stouter guys absorbing GA's momentum.
I do wonder whether Ime should be coaching them to dive and flop on those GA drives, as everyone knows he's forcing the contact and the reality is he's oly going to get called when it's really obvious.
I do wonder whether Ime should be coaching them to dive and flop on those GA drives, as everyone knows he's forcing the contact and the reality is he's oly going to get called when it's really obvious.
Grant is the Semi that we always hoped Semi would be. The play where he got position in the lane on Giannis, and Giannis ran right into his chest and bounced off...chef's kiss. Few people a) shake off GA like that, and 2) don't get called. Maybe nobody else.
JB was the key to the game last night. That first quarter was peak Bird/Jordan. God on both ends.
Is Giannis just too good/big/lengthy to be bothered by a smaller guy on him while he brings the ball up? Seems to me that if you could bother him and make him work harder, or even have to pass the ball off, it would much up their "Giannis at the three point line barreling to the basket" offense.
I don’t think he’s gonna generally called for charges regardless, as you note, so flopping just exposes you to easy layups/short range shots.
Sadly, they’ll only get a portion of those calls when it’s really obvious too. (I’m thinking of the obvious charge on Jaylen at mid court that got called a block by Tyler Ford)
I don't think that surprising him once in a while would be a bad idea, but overall this isn't good practice with a guy who goes downhill at 100MPH. Best defense against him is building a wall, and you need everyone to either be part of the wall or manning up a shooter. In confusion or odd-man rush, Giannis thrives. 5-man amoeba defense is the kryptonite.
I’ve been thinking about this today because of all of the awful Tyler Ford calls yesterday….
Who are the really bad refs that get consistent playoff assignments?
The obvious one is Scott Foster. Tyler Ford is up there. Brothers. Zach Zarba definitely likes to call it pretty tight and get camera time.
Is there anyone I am missing?
Who are the really bad refs that get consistent playoff assignments?
The obvious one is Scott Foster. Tyler Ford is up there. Brothers. Zach Zarba definitely likes to call it pretty tight and get camera time.
Is there anyone I am missing?
Yes, I agree. And i also agree you can't flop every time. They have decided in the first two games---and it may well be the right approach---to play it straight and force GA to make the plays. All I'm saying is I wonder if tactically you want a few flops in there as well.
Ford and Brothers are awful. Foster, for all of the 3-0 series fixing and CP3 legends, isn't really that bad imo.
What has impressed me a lot about Grant of late -- and this goes back to his work on Durant -- is how he will keep his hands out away from trouble when bodying up on his opponent. But when the other player brings the ball across his body to go up for a shot, he is managing to get a hand on the ball without fouling.
I think the issue for TL was not strength - I think he’s plenty strong - but that he was dropping too far off of Giannis and allowing him some room to attack. Obviously, the strategy is to let Giannis shoot if he will, so dropping off him makes sense. But dropping too far gives him an advantage on his drives.
Grant is a basketball player with a well rounded set of skills. His problem was too many of his skills were big man skills that worked against smaller college defenders. But look at the way he’s added a shot, understands positional defense, etc. Semi was just a big strong guy with limited basketball skills. He learned one useful thing - man defense against an athletic guy who doesn’t shoot well. But Semi did very little other than that.
just had a Semi flashback of every NBA player easily shooting over a statuesque Adonis in the lane and threw up in my morning coffee
Brown working on his game 3 hours pre-tip and then the MJ 1st half had TNT (Celtic fans) giddy. The TNT producers did a good job highlighting Jaylen's pre-game work
As ecstatic as I am about the win last night - Grant and Al were awesome, JB and JT carried the team for stretches - I'm a little concerned that it required such abnormally hot shooting from three to get the win (and abnormally bad shooting on Milwaukee's part). For most of the game they were above or just below 50%. Surely some of that is due to them getting wide open looks against.a Milwaukee D engineered to do just that, but I'm not sure how much of that we can expect them to carry into an unfriendly road environment where the rims get a little bit smaller and the hands get a little bit sweatier and the shots are a little bit rushed. Can Grant, PP, and the other role players show up when the pressure is higher?
Milwaukee did their job in stealing home court advantage; now the Cs have to steal it back. Hopefully Marcus and Jaylen get healthy because I get panic attacks every time time I see PP switched onto basically anyone in Milwaukee's rotation (though the time he forced Giannis into a baseline jumper was a marvelous sight to behold).
Milwaukee did their job in stealing home court advantage; now the Cs have to steal it back. Hopefully Marcus and Jaylen get healthy because I get panic attacks every time time I see PP switched onto basically anyone in Milwaukee's rotation (though the time he forced Giannis into a baseline jumper was a marvelous sight to behold).
Continuing the discussion above about the change in approach on GA. Not only were they no longer doubling him, there were occasions where the Celtics defense took advantage of poor Bucks spacing and doubled off GA. More than a handful of times, Grant floated off GA to help a nearby teammate lock up a ball carrier that was cornered, leaving GA semi open. Really interesting adjustment made there.
Foster is targeted, he makes a decision on how he wants the game to go and makes it happen, also he's a smug asshole who thinks he's the show.
Ford and Brothers are just bad at being refs.
I couldn't agree more.
Specifically, what I meant was the man defense (on ball beef). Semi had that gift that Marcus and Grant have of being able to move the feet and also take a hit without giving too much. But Grant can actually (and does) bother and block shots. His anticipation on the shot and willingness to actually freaking jump matter. Grant has 2-3 inches of standing reach over Semi, according to NBA.com, but obviously it's more than that.
The fact that he's a worthwhile corner three guy is enough to kill this comparison forever, nevermind that he's also doing tons of little things, rebounding, passing, and driving closeouts like a maniac.
edit: sorry about your coffee BH
Foster is crooked and an NBA lackey. Zarba, the handsome ref, just wants screen time, but Tyler Ford just doesn't like Tatum. Its not even the Celtics, its a Ford/Tatum thing
Brad needs to send a fruit basket this Xmas to the Ford's and sign it from Deuce's Dad
Sure, they got a little sloppy in the second half, but last night was pretty much Gino time from the tip. They won't shoot that well every game, but if their defense continues to hold up they can win any game and it won't take anomalously hot shooting to get it done.