Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion

Who you got?

  • Celts in 4

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Celts in 5

    Votes: 69 32.5%
  • Celts in 6

    Votes: 106 50.0%
  • Celts in 7

    Votes: 25 11.8%
  • Bucks in 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 6

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Bucks in 7

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Total voters
    212
  • Poll closed .

scottyno

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It honestly, from the outside looking in, feels sometimes like the NBA knows he's a big star and a future de facto face of the game already, but isn't ready to commit to "pushing" him (to use a pro wrestling term) to the top because he's not playing for one of their favored teams. And, yes, I know Boston SHOULD be one of those teams, but it still feels like a second- or third-tier city in the league's eyes, for whatever reason (racist fanbase allegations, cold weather city, not as popular a team as it once was within the city, not a ratings draw nationally, or other), and I wonder if that works against him.

Even if you disagree on the NBA's view of Boston as a franchise, the question remains as to how much star treatment Tatum gets. Is he doomed to play second fiddle of sorts so long as there's a sexier option (Greek Freak! LeBron! Steph! KD! Leonard!) to promote?
Like that favored NBA team the Milwaukee Bucks? None of those guys played for a favored NBA team for most of their career.
 

Humphrey

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Hate to be Mr. Optimist here, but the box score looks like a team that took care of the ball (10 TO) and shared it (25 assists on 42FGM).

Sure they got outrebounded, but Milwaukee hit 13 of 29 from 3, and we hit 10 of 31. It's that fucking simple. Make or miss.

Doesn't mean shit for the next one. Let's see what happens in game 6.
What's also fucking simple is they gave up 5 points (a 3 in the third quarter and then Portis' putback at the end) on missed Milwaukee foul shots. Cannot happen in a close game where every possession counts. Bad flashback to 1987 and Magic's baby sky hook (set up because the Celts couldn't corral a missed free throw).
 

scottyno

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Okay, leave out the favored team/city stuff.

Is JT getting superstar treatment in the league? If not, why?
Because he's not those guys yet? That's 5 guys who are already going to be inner circle HOFers when their careers end, they're all way further along their NBA careers than Tatum is at this point at only 23 with only 5 seasons played.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Because he's not those guys yet? That's 5 guys who are already going to be inner circle HOFers when their careers end, they're all way further along their NBA careers than Tatum is at this point at only 23 with only 5 seasons played.
Maybe it is that simple. If so, all the more reason he needs to stop yapping and get back on D. He needs to lead by example.
 

DourDoerr

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We're literally just hundredths of a second from already moving on to the ECF Al's tip-in from end of Game 3 and White's layup at the end of the half. Beat those red lights and we're on our way. Just terrible luck. Now they need to suck it up, get tight with opposing 3-pt shooters and move the ball up court fast and slow the ball while getting back on D. Too many times the Bucks were taking advantage of a loose D still running back while the C's were slowly bringing it up into the teeth of the Bucks' halfcourt D. Would like to see them turn the tables the next, gulp, two games.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Maybe it is that simple. If so, all the more reason he needs to stop yapping and get back on D. He needs to lead by example.
I’m in the minority around here on superstars getting calls bc they are superstars but rather that the ability they have which makes them superstars puts them in positions to draw fouls by beating their man to the spots and having the physical skills to create and draw contact.

The reason Tatum doesn’t get “superstar calls” is simply bc he doesn’t possess the physical characteristics of those you mention. He’s more of a finesse player at this point in that he can’t overpower his man to position and create contact like those on your list.
 

lars10

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I’m in the minority around here on superstars getting calls bc they are superstars but rather that the ability they have which makes them superstars puts them in positions to draw fouls by beating their man to the spots and having the physical skills to create and draw contact.

The reason Tatum doesn’t get “superstar calls” is simply bc he doesn’t possess the physical characteristics of those you mention. He’s more of a finesse player at this point in that he can’t overpower his man to position and create contact like those on your list.
That’s just not true. He draws contact all the time.. Giannis ‘drew’ several fouls where there was zero contact or he simply fell over. Tatum often gets hammered going to the hoop and gets nothing. The difference in the amount of contact required to get a foul call for Tatum vs Giannis just isn’t the same at all.. it has nothing to do with him’ beating him to the spot’ or whatever.. your theory just doesn’t meet the eye test. Giannis creates a ton of contact.. when Tatum has done the exact same thing he’s been called for offensive fouls.. several times in this series alone.. has absolutely nothing to do with beating anyone to any spot.. Giannis is given a ton of leeway regarding contact and Tatum isn’t.. because of this Tatum has to play an entirely different way.

Edit: they’re also obviously very different players.. and I’d agree that Tatum is obviously more tentative.. but I think part of the reason Tatum shies away from contact is because he doesn’t get calls.. Giannis throws himself into his defender and 9 times out of 10 gets a call. Also part of the reason he can beat people yo the rim is he gets a running start from the three point line.. it’s hard to play d against that.. especially if you get called for bumping GA at all.
 
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dhellers

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I wonder about the Celts mental stamina. In particular, their ability to maintain composure at the end of a long and exhausting game.

Malcolm Gladwell writes about "choking" (as opposed to "panic"), which he describes as the loss of instinct. A loss of implicit learning, leading to a reversion to explicit learning; aka "thinking too much".

Perhaps in the case of the Celts, this loss manifests itself as diminishment of breadth of vision. An overfocus on what ever you are looking at.
Which exacerbates tunnel vision.
Which leads to abandoning the team ball that the Celtics are great at.
Hence inefficient ISO heavy ball from their scorers, missing rebounds that jump off at odd angles, being late at covering 3 point line (when 3 points hurt you much more than two),....

That's why it scares me when they celebrate too early, or complain too much. Indulging in this kind of emotion can't be good for end-of-game mental stamina?

Not sure what the cure for this. It is reasonable to hope that age/experience/maturity will help (i.e.; it took Giannis several years to get here)?

BTW: this one feels a bit like Pats/Giants 2008. So many chances to make a good play to put it away, but the other team's composure carried the day.
And why does it hurt this much: unlike prior years of the BS/MS era, where the talent wasn't good enough (partly because of injuries), this team is able to go all the way.
 

BigSoxFan

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Disagree with this. I get the skepticism but Boston has been consistently adjusting all season. They are in this spot precisely because they have levelled up as a group as well as individually.

Given their coaching body of work and attention to detail, I expect them to clean a lot of things up going into Saturday. That may all be for naught but its been a long while since I can recall this team executing poorly down the stretch in consecutive games.
We’re talking behavior and not strategy. They’ve had plenty of time to clean this up and never have, especially Tatum.
 

128

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We're literally just hundredths of a second from already moving on to the ECF Al's tip-in from end of Game 3 and White's layup at the end of the half. Beat those red lights and we're on our way. Just terrible luck. Now they need to suck it up, get tight with opposing 3-pt shooters and move the ball up court fast and slow the ball while getting back on D. Too many times the Bucks were taking advantage of a loose D still running back while the C's were slowly bringing it up into the teeth of the Bucks' halfcourt D. Would like to see them turn the tables the next, gulp, two games.
Al's tip-in would have forced OT. No guarantee the C's would have gone on to win that game. But, yes, the C's have made tough luck.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Destroyed on the boards.

Ref watching (and whining).

Got Milwaukee into the bonus with 6 minutes to go in the game and stopped driving.

After game 4, Ime chortled that the Celtics can get Horford wide open jumpers any time they want - the went to him once early then buried him, he got 7 shots.

Grant and Pritchard are afraid to take threes. They went 0-3 today and each passed up open looks. Grant, instead, tried something different - putting the ball on the floor and then off his foot and out of bounds. Grant needs to stay within himself and not think he can attack defenders off the dribble like he is Tatum or Brown.

Pritchard actually came up big on a couple of shots in his 2nd half stint. Late in the clock takes a shot from Tatum and beats the buzzer on a 7-foot fallaway to put the Celtics up 14 with 10:16 to go. Two minutes later, the Celtics run (yet another) ineffective offensive set that almost leads to a turnover, and Pritchard races up top to give White an outlet. Clock is winding down and you can see Pritchard actually wants the ball - he gets it, drives, hits an 8-footer to put the Celtics up 11.

I thought Ime had some curious substitution decisions. Brown had an immense 16-point third quarter, and Ime sat him down for the first 4.5 minutes of the 4th. Of course, the team played well and built up its lead over most of that span. I also think he might have been reluctant to take the defensively overmatched Pritchard out of the game because he was the lone guy getting after it in the offensive end.

Brown came into the 4th with 27 minutes and just having exploed for 16 in the third quarter, Tatum had 29, and Tatum played the entire fourth while Brown sat for the beginning. Mistake.

But at the end of the day, throwing this game and perhaps the season away was a group effort.

I don't expect them to win this series, though they could. If they do advance I don't expect them to win the ECF. They aren't able to sustain the level of effort and quality play that is needed to win. (Or, if they are, they haven't shown it). Add it all up quarter by quarter and they have been off their game for more of this series than they have been on it.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Tatum doesn’t get the whistle he thinks he deserves because he is often looking for it on plays where he is still avoiding contact to a degree. The awkward leaners and floaters and fadeaways just aren’t going to draw whistles compared to the times he drives hard, puts a defender on skates, and pushes through contact toward the rim instead of away from it.

He has very good body control but he uses it to find daylight rather than initiate the kind of contact that draws a superstar whistle.
 
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128

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For all the botched rebounds and stagnant possessions, I keep coming back to one stat: Milwaukee was 6 for 6 on 3-pointers in the fourth quarter. On the road in what, in many ways, might have been an elimination game for the Bucks.

"You come at the king, you best not miss."
 
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TrapperAB

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One thing I haven’t seen mentioned re: Tatum and the refs is that he puts up a shot, the defender ends up close to him, so he falls to the floor, presumably to pick up the “he’s in my landing space” foul. But when you look at the replay, it’s NOT a foul on the defender, and the refs aren’t calling it.

So, not only does Tatum bark at the refs, he does so AFTER he’s pulled himself off the floor. By then, the play is past him and the Celts are 4 on 5 (if everyone else got back).

It’s maddening.
 

CapeCodYaz

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Tatum doesn’t get the whistle he thinks he deserves because he is often looking for it on plays where he is still avoiding contact to a degree. The awkward leaners and floaters and fadeaways just aren’t going to draw whistles compared to the times he drives hard, puts a defender on skates, and pushes through contact toward the rim instead of away from it.

He has very good body control but he uses it to find daylight rather than initiate the kind of contact that draws a superstar whistle.
I love Tatum but his whining to the refs gets old sometimes and he isn't helping himself with all the forearm shoves he does
 

Light-Tower-Power

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One thing I haven’t seen mentioned re: Tatum and the refs is that he puts up a shot, the defender ends up close to him, so he falls to the floor, presumably to pick up the “he’s in my landing space” foul. But when you look at the replay, it’s NOT a foul on the defender, and the refs aren’t calling it.

So, not only does Tatum bark at the refs, he does so AFTER he’s pulled himself off the floor. By then, the play is past him and the Celts are 4 on 5 (if everyone else got back).

It’s maddening.
I don’t remember him doing the Harden-esque fall down for a foul flop much, but I’ve seen it a bunch the last couple games. Agree it’s maddening. Stop flopping and your ass back on defense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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For all the botched defenses and stagnant possessions, I keep coming back to one stat: Milwaukee was 6 for 6 on 3-pointers in the fourth quarter. On the road in what, in many ways, might have been an elimination game for the Bucks.

"You come at the king, you best not miss."
This. The fact that GA hit 2 3Ps in the 2H made me think this wasn't the Cs night despite everything else.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That’s just not true. He draws contact all the time.. Giannis ‘drew’ several fouls where there was zero contact or he simply fell over. Tatum often gets hammered going to the hoop and gets nothing. The difference in the amount of contact required to get a foul call for Tatum vs Giannis just isn’t the same at all.. it has nothing to do with him’ beating him to the spot’ or whatever.. your theory just doesn’t meet the eye test. Giannis creates a ton of contact.. when Tatum has done the exact same thing he’s been called for offensive fouls.. several times in this series alone.. has absolutely nothing to do with beating anyone to any spot.. Giannis is given a ton of leeway regarding contact and Tatum isn’t.. because of this Tatum has to play an entirely different way.

Edit: they’re also obviously very different players.. and I’d agree that Tatum is obviously more tentative.. but I think part of the reason Tatum shies away from contact is because he doesn’t get calls.. Giannis throws himself into his defender and 9 times out of 10 gets a call. Also part of the reason he can beat people yo the rim is he gets a running start from the three point line.. it’s hard to play d against that.. especially if you get called for bumping GA at all.
I mean you just argued your point which disagrees with my opinion……only to edit it to say pretty much what I’m saying.

Yes, Tatum is more tentative than Giannis. When you shy away from contact you don’t get the same calls as someone who plays through contact.
No, Tatum does not finish through contact as strong as Giannis bc he’s not as strong.
Yes, Giannis throws himself into defenders who are not in legal guarding position more effectively than Tatum as he’s stronger and can finish through contact better.
Yes, Giannis can go downhill more effectively than Tatum due in large part to his strength advantage.
 

benhogan

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If you want to dissect where it all went wrong go watch the last 10 minutes (if you can stomach it)

Celtics up 14pts

Bucks end the game on a 31-14 run

There were a lot of December Celtic plays there.

offense: turnovers, ISO coma dribble fest
defense: lack of defensive rebounding, overhelping

Milwaukee executed, but the things the Celtics controlled spiraled down
 

TrapperAB

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I don’t remember him doing the Harden-esque fall down for a foul flop much, but I’ve seen it a bunch the last couple games. Agree it’s maddening. Stop flopping and your ass back on defense.
Agreed, the Harden Technique hasn’t really been a part of Tatum’s approach — which is why it’s been so noticeable during the last couple of games. It’s not working, kid. Cut it out and get back — we need your exceptional D.
 

BigSoxFan

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This. The fact that GA hit 2 3Ps in the 2H made me think this wasn't the Cs night despite everything else.
They were up 14 with a quarter to go. This WAS their night. They did everything right for a large stretch of the game and just fell apart. Milwaukee contributed to it with good D and ridiculous shooting but the Celtics simply failed to execute. They could have weathered the Bucks’ shooting had they executed better on offense. But they sadly reverted back to their uglier form. It sucks.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I remain a huge Tatum fan but he needs to up his aggressiveness 10% and consistently force those calls rather than hoping to get soft-contact calls on leaners and fallaways. And he needs to reduce by 90% going down and whining or stopping to complain while the action is continuing. I’m sure they’ve talked to him about it and it has improved some this year…but not enough.

this feels like a classic “team on the rise needs to learn how to win in the playoffs” series. Celts can’t quite sustain late as well as the Bucks and unlike round one—where Tatum matched or exceeded Durant late it’s not happening here.

still in this fight, but need to sustain offensive intensity and clean up in the boards. The effort was there—the critical Portis rebound was two guys hustling at least—and there’s now no more room for “almosts“
 

Auger34

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I’m sure it’ll sink in on the 959th team it gets brought up. This is in their DNA. They won’t shake it. And it might prove to be a fatal flaw.
I think losing a playoff game is a powerful learning tool

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned re: Tatum and the refs is that he puts up a shot, the defender ends up close to him, so he falls to the floor, presumably to pick up the “he’s in my landing space” foul. But when you look at the replay, it’s NOT a foul on the defender, and the refs aren’t calling it.

So, not only does Tatum bark at the refs, he does so AFTER he’s pulled himself off the floor. By then, the play is past him and the Celts are 4 on 5 (if everyone else got back).

It’s maddening.
Great point. He did it a BUNCH last game and it only looked like it was an actual foul once (4th quarter Bobby Portis got under him so he couldn’t land).
 

joe dokes

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I think that one reason they got wrecked on the boards was that Al had no legs. He had that put back dunk, but he had a 20 foot runway to take off from. Beyond that, though, he (and inexplicably) Theis seemed to be regularly outrebounded even though they had inside position against Lopez and Portis (two that stick out).
 

Strike4

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One point about Brown not being much of a factor in the 4th: I think he has shown that for all his greatness Brown is an on/off player and when he's off he can absolutely kill the team. Not just with missed shots, but with brainfarts and turnovers that can bury you in about two minutes, especially against a team like the Bucks. I do think Ime plays him this way in this series - get great scoring from Brown early, then rely on him as a secondary scoring option but make sure he's not forcing things.

Tatum is the go-to offensive player when you really need to close out a game and except for one game, he's not been great in that role.
 

Auger34

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I remain a huge Tatum fan but he needs to up his aggressiveness 10% and consistently force those calls rather than hoping to get soft-contact calls on leaners and fallaways. And he needs to reduce by 90% going down and whining or stopping to complain while the action is continuing. I’m sure they’ve talked to him about it and it has improved some this year…but not enough.

this feels like a classic “team on the rise needs to learn how to win in the playoffs” series. Celts can’t quite sustain late as well as the Bucks and unlike round one—where Tatum matched or exceeded Durant late it’s not happening here.

still in this fight, but need to sustain offensive intensity and clean up in the boards. The effort was there—the critical Portis rebound was two guys hustling at least—and there’s now no more room for “almosts“
I know this is a very simple analysis but the two things that won the Bucks Game 5 were their 3 point shooting and the rebounding dominance (offensive especially).
I am really hoping that Rob Williams can come back for Game 6 because that helps solve the rebounding issue.
The 3 point shooting I don’t think is sustainable at all. The Bucks made more than a couple of well contested corner 3’s (Connaughton and the fucking corpse of Wes Matthews were the biggest offenders) and I just don’t see that continuing.

On the Celtics end, Tatum and Grant both need to step it up. Tatum had numerous possessions where he devolved back into ISO Tatum and took long jumpers that werent open. Grant was a mess and he needs to take a long look in the mirror and remember the things that he does well and stick to them.

Most importantly for both of them (ESPECIALLY Grant), they need to cut the shit with all of the whining and complaining to the officials. Grant isn’t doing himself, or his team quite frankly, any favors when he’s consistently the whiniest player on the floor. He needs to realize that he’s not anywhere close to that status as a player
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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What's also fucking simple is they gave up 5 points (a 3 in the third quarter and then Portis' putback at the end) on missed Milwaukee foul shots. Cannot happen in a close game where every possession counts. Bad flashback to 1987 and Magic's baby sky hook (set up because the Celts couldn't corral a missed free throw).
Also a game in which they wasted a double digit lead. Ugh.
 

lexrageorge

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The Celtics gave away too many offensive possessions in the 4th. The offense stalled, but I don't put all of that on Tatum. In some cases, it seemed like nobody was really in position to take his pass and get off a good shot.

Tatum should have had the ball on that last Celtics possession with 14 seconds left, no questions asked. He is much more likely to draw a foul than Marcus Smart, and also much more likely to drain both free throws. That was inexcusable.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I’m in the minority around here on superstars getting calls bc they are superstars but rather that the ability they have which makes them superstars puts them in positions to draw fouls by beating their man to the spots and having the physical skills to create and draw contact.

The reason Tatum doesn’t get “superstar calls” is simply bc he doesn’t possess the physical characteristics of those you mention. He’s more of a finesse player at this point in that he can’t overpower his man to position and create contact like those on your list.
Yep. PP could get to the line at will.
 

Cesar Crespo

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this feels like a classic “team on the rise needs to learn how to win in the playoffs” series. Celts can’t quite sustain late as well as the Bucks and unlike round one—where Tatum matched or exceeded Durant late it’s not happening here.
If this team doesn't know how to win in the playoffs yet, they never will. They have plenty of playoff experience. So if it does feel like that, it's definitely NOT the case. The C's are well tested in the playoffs. All those ECFs have to count for something.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Re-watching the end sequence, it's frustrating how bad Jaylen was on that missed Giannis free throw. That ball was going right to Smart and it was going to be an easy rebound had Jaylen not run across the middle and smacked him in the face trying to go for it himself. If he just seals off Portis there instead of trying to get the board himself it's a different outcome. I understand heat of the moment but there was zero awareness there on Jaylen's part.

On Smart's drive off the inbounds, there was 10.5 seconds on the clock when he tried to barrel into Connaughton and Holiday. Plenty of time to pull it out and try to find Tatum or Brown for a jumper at worst, but he went head down to the basket instead. Milwaukee played a great fourth, but the Celtics handed it to them on a platter. Bad shot selection, hilariously inept rebounding, and then some low BBIQ play at the end to top it all off. The Celtics are more talented, especially without Middleton, but the Bucks are a much smarter team and it shows.
 

Auger34

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The big adjustment that Bud made in the last game was playing Portis and Giannis together. Both Al and Grant aren’t great rebounders and continually got abused on the boards.

If TimeLord can play in Game 6, then Bud will have to adjust again because the Celtics will be much more capable of defending the Portis/Giannis pairing
 

jezza1918

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If this team doesn't know how to win in the playoffs yet, they never will. They have plenty of playoff experience. So if it does feel like that, it's definitely NOT the case. The C's are well tested in the playoffs. All those ECFs have to count for something.
I keep coming back to this, and I mentioned it on the Tatum thread, but 24 year old superstars leading their teams to NBA titles is the exception and not the rule. The only guy this millennium to do it is Wade, and he had still all-star level shaq. Durant/Lebron/Curry/Giannis* didn't do it, and then eventually won. Embiid/Harden/Jokic and Im sure some others havent even been to finals as leaders of the team. This is not to say Tatum will lead the celts to a title, just that him doing it now would be a surprise, and I dont view him as NOT doing it now as predictive of the future.

And I think without previous ECF experience, the celts dont turn a 13 point deficit with 10 min to go in game 3 into a 1 point lead 8 minutes later; or turn a 10 point deficit with 13 minutes to go into a 10 point lead 10 minutes later...on the road, against the defending champs with the best player in basketball. I think they likely get blown out.

*Kawhii did with that 14 spurs team, although I maintain that was very much a full team effort as he was playing alongside 2 hall of famers (3 if Parker makes it).
 

Cesar Crespo

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I keep coming back to this, and I mentioned it on the Tatum thread, but 24 year old superstars leading their teams to NBA titles is the exception and not the rule. The only guy this millennium to do it is Wade, and he had still all-star level shaq. Durant/Lebron/Curry/Giannis* didn't do it, and then eventually won. Embiid/Harden/Jokic and Im sure some others havent even been to finals as leaders of the team. This is not to say Tatum will lead the celts to a title, just that him doing it now would be a surprise, and I dont view him as NOT doing it now as predictive of the future.

And I think without previous ECF experience, the celts dont turn a 13 point deficit with 10 min to go in game 3 into a 1 point lead 8 minutes later; or turn a 10 point deficit with 13 minutes to go into a 10 point lead 10 minutes later...on the road, against the defending champs with the best player in basketball. I think they likely get blown out.

*Kawhii did with that 14 spurs team, although I maintain that was very much a full team effort as he was playing alongside 2 hall of famers (3 if Parker makes it).
To be clear, I think the C's know how to win in the playoffs. That doesn't mean they are going to win a title because other teams also know how to win playoff games and are just as good or maybe even better than the Celtics. The C's didn't lose this basketball game due to lack of experience. They lost because the Bucks are good.
 

tims4wins

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To be clear, I think the C's know how to win in the playoffs. That doesn't mean they are going to win a title because other teams also know how to win playoff games and are just as good or maybe even better than the Celtics. The C's didn't lose this basketball game due to lack of experience. They lost because the Bucks are good.
I think someone said this in the game thread this morning, but while the Celts are probably the more talented team on paper, the Bucks have played like the smarter team for longer stretches of the series. So I do think there is room for growth for the Celts in that aspect.
 

benhogan

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I’m in the minority around here on superstars getting calls bc they are superstars but rather that the ability they have which makes them superstars puts them in positions to draw fouls by beating their man to the spots and having the physical skills to create and draw contact.

Tatum doesn’t get “superstar calls” because he doesn’t possess the physical characteristics of those you mention. He’s more of a finesse player at this point in that he can’t overpower his man to position and create contact like those on your list.
Yea I agree with you here.

19-24yr old Tatum is a finesse player that has been trending towards more power. He's been good about adding strength every offseason. When he hits 25, 26, and 27 he'll be getting more calls and playing more bully ball.

There's a reason why young #1s have a tough time winning Championships. Heck it even took MJ an offseason of creatine, weights & 28th birthday to finally get past the Pistons
 

jezza1918

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To be clear, I think the C's know how to win in the playoffs. That doesn't mean they are going to win a title because other teams also know how to win playoff games and are just as good or maybe even better than the Celtics. The C's didn't lose this basketball game due to lack of experience. They lost because the Bucks are good.
Gotcha. I misread your post that I responded to.
Yea I agree with you here.

19-24yr old Tatum is a finesse player that has been trending towards more power. He's been good about adding strength every offseason. When he hits 25, 26, and 27 he'll be getting more calls and playing more bully ball.

There's a reason why young #1s have a tough time winning Championships. Heck it even took MJ an offseason of creatine, weights & 27th birthday to finally get past the Pistons
100%. This is what I've been trying to get at in some of my posts...you just did it in a much cleaner way. I look forward to pretty much copying & pasting your post and sending to my brother, who thinks Tatum will never be capable of winning
 

RSN Diaspora

molests goats for comedy
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Jul 29, 2005
11,345
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I posted this in the game thread last night, but this seemed to encapsulate the Celtics on the boards, especially on offense. Under four to shoot, so time was of the essence, but when you have literally no one at the hoop, you will never get an offensive board:

51538
 

Judas Demon

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Jul 26, 2010
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Jrue Holiday is who you’d want Marcus Smart to be when he finally grows up. Just an amazing game for him. Rapidly becoming my favorite non-Celtic star (and yes, he deserves to be called one).
Giannis is obviously the best player in the series but , just as much as love watching Holiday, I can’t stand watching him. He’s a physical specimen that is damn near impossible to guard but the flailing drives 50 times a game are difficult to take aesthetically
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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I posted this in the game thread last night, but this seemed to encapsulate the Celtics on the boards, especially on offense. Under four to shoot, so time was of the essence, but when you have literally no one at the hoop, you will never get an offensive board:

View attachment 51538
I think they are somewhat intentionally avoiding the offensive glass to tamp down the MIL fast break. That *is* a relatively open and makeable shot. (I've about given up carping about how wide open the baseline is for a cutter who would get the defense moving).
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
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Nov 10, 2006
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Giannis's biggest advantage is he can put his head down and get a bucket when he needs one. He shares this quality with other superstars who went out and got multiple titles -- Lebron and Shaq come to mind.

Tatum isn't that guy right now against super physical defense -- and I wouldn't put it past him to get stronger and tougher.

But he's ostensibly the sort of shooter who can win series with volume three-point shooting. Unfortunately, he's shooting 30% on his threes this series. The difference in two of those losses has been three points or less, and Tatum has gone 0-6 and 2-11 from three in those games (4-19 and 12-29 in total).

The C's collapsed, there's no doubt about that. But Tatum has also just missed shots. (Which is doubly a shame, because the team has been shooting very well otherwise, with the exception of Pritchard).
 

Eddie Jurak

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To be clear, I think the C's know how to win in the playoffs. That doesn't mean they are going to win a title because other teams also know how to win playoff games and are just as good or maybe even better than the Celtics. The C's didn't lose this basketball game due to lack of experience. They lost because the Bucks are good.
Celtic player continually tapped at refs instead of getting back on defense because the Bucks are good? The Celtics stopped boxing out because the Bucks are good? Marcus Smart drove with his head down (into coverage he knew to expect) without looking for the open Tatum and Brown because the Bucks are good?
 

bsan34

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Jul 31, 2006
338
C'ville, VA / Hingham, MA
Celtic player continually tapped at refs instead of getting back on defense because the Bucks are good? The Celtics stopped boxing out because the Bucks are good? Marcus Smart drove with his head down (into coverage he knew to expect) without looking for the open Tatum and Brown because the Bucks are good?
These are two of the three best teams in the league, and might be the top 2. Yes, the Celtics can get away with some of this against lesser teams, and they can't get away with it here because the Bucks have the best player, their 2nd best player is playing out of his mind, and they're tough and physical as all hell.
 

128

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May 4, 2019
10,016
Jrue Holiday is who you’d want Marcus Smart to be when he finally grows up. Just an amazing game for him. Rapidly becoming my favorite non-Celtic star (and yes, he deserves to be called one).
Giannis is obviously the best player in the series but , just as much as love watching Holiday, I can’t stand watching him. He’s a physical specimen that is damn near impossible to guard but the flailing drives 50 times a game are difficult to take aesthetically
Holiday is fantastic. To the C's credit, they've forced him into a poor series in terms of field-goal percentage, but he made the big plays when he had to in Game 5.
 

chilidawg

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Jan 22, 2015
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Cultural hub of the universe
I think they are somewhat intentionally avoiding the offensive glass to tamp down the MIL fast break. That *is* a relatively open and makeable shot. (I've about given up carping about how wide open the baseline is for a cutter who would get the defense moving).
Exactly, and I think that's good strategy. Just have to focus on the defensive end and rebound there, and then punish the Bucks in transition for them crashing the Oboards. Bottom line though is that the C's are undersized on the frontline compared to the Bucks, and Milwaukee is able to take advantage.
 

Humphrey

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Aug 3, 2010
3,163
The Celtics gave away too many offensive possessions in the 4th. The offense stalled, but I don't put all of that on Tatum. In some cases, it seemed like nobody was really in position to take his pass and get off a good shot.

Tatum should have had the ball on that last Celtics possession with 14 seconds left, no questions asked. He is much more likely to draw a foul than Marcus Smart, and also much more likely to drain both free throws. That was inexcusable.
I'd have preferred they brought the ball up the court rather than inbounding it. Better chance of Tatum ending up with the ball with space versus what occurred. And if you get across half court and nothing looks promising, you can still call the time out.
 

Bleedred

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Feb 21, 2001
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Jrue Holiday is who you’d want Marcus Smart to be when he finally grows up. Just an amazing game for him. Rapidly becoming my favorite non-Celtic star (and yes, he deserves to be called one).
Giannis is obviously the best player in the series but , just as much as love watching Holiday, I can’t stand watching him. He’s a physical specimen that is damn near impossible to guard but the flailing drives 50 times a game are difficult to take aesthetically
+1 I admire the hell out of his game. He's got to be one of the most underrated borderline superstars in the game today. The way he uses his body to leverage men much taller than him is a clinic in how to do that. His defense is also on a par with Marcus's, maybe even better, and he carries a bigger load offensively. Just a great player.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Celtic player continually tapped at refs instead of getting back on defense because the Bucks are good? The Celtics stopped boxing out because the Bucks are good? Marcus Smart drove with his head down (into coverage he knew to expect) without looking for the open Tatum and Brown because the Bucks are good?
They do this against other teams and still win. You can't do that shit against a good team like the Bucks and expect a W. Yes, they lost the game because the Bucks are a good basketball team. Is it that hard to give opposing teams credit?

Not every Celtics loss is the Celtics beating themselves or on the refs.

The Bucks being good and the Celtics being sloppy aren't mutually exclusive things. Are the Bucks not a good basketball team? How'd they win the title last year?