Celtics vs 76ers, Round 2 Discussion

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
9,759
Boston, MA
I have to make a mea culpa here because I think I was wrong. I have been critical of Mazzulla for not getting into the team and lighting them up. After watching the post game press conferences for him and Jaylen, I think Mazzulla got into them and challenged all of them to show some effort and pride on defense and it appears the results were outstanding.
Good on Joe and good on the team for taking it to heart
With the caveat that it is TBD if the team has figured it out or if they just figured it out last night and could relapse like they have in the past, but that was indeed an impressive performance. They corrected a bunch of mistakes from game 1: (i) taking more 3s, (ii) higher energy on D generally, (iii) playing much tighter on the ballhandler, (iv) picking up closer to half court and (v) going over screens tightly with effort. It was night and day. Playing Grant more minutes was a very good call. Staying with Al, whose defensive effort was excellent even though he was woeful from 3 was a good call. A special shout out to Jaylen. I think it was the best game I've seen him play. His defensive effort was there all night, and he really is the perfect guy to guard Harden up and down the court, and to stay in his space. He was also awesome on offense. What a complete game. Great to see
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,515
I remember the play where Embiid just drove past Horford and dunked and was impressed by how quickly White grabbed the ball and inbounded to Smart nearly instantly and Smart quickly got it in the front court, forcing Embiid to exert effort to get back in defensive position. Nothing came of it, but it's the right mindset.
Yeah that was a really heads up play. Any time they can make Embiid run it is to the Celtics advantage to do so. The big man was especially lumbering last night and I'm not sure he is going to get much conditioning and quickness back in this series.

I think the Celtics can run on Harden as well. He looked great in Game 1 with a long layoff between games but he does not appear to be in top physical shape and he is on the wrong side of 30. You could put P.J. Tucker in the same bucket.

Mazzulla is continuously urging the Celtics to push the pace which I think is generally the right thing to do and especially so in this series.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
54,799
deep inside Guido territory
With the caveat that it is TBD if the team has figured it out or if they just figured it out last night and could relapse like they have in the past, but that was indeed an impressive performance. They corrected a bunch of mistakes from game 1: (i) taking more 3s, (ii) higher energy on D generally, (iii) playing much tighter on the ballhandler, (iv) picking up closer to half court and (v) going over screens tightly with effort. It was night and day. Playing Grant more minutes was a very good call. Staying with Al, whose defensive effort was excellent even though he was woeful from 3 was a good call. A special shout out to Jaylen. I think it was the best game I've seen him play. His defensive effort was there all night, and he really is the perfect guy to guard Harden up and down the court, and to stay in his space. He was also awesome on offense. What a complete game. Great to see
Great performance last night for sure, but the thing they have to prove is consistency throughout a series. Stay locked in and focused and not just bring it when they are challenged to do so. That separates good teams from great teams.
 

TrapperAB

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 25, 2002
2,944
West Hartford, CT
Tatum didn’t seem to be as locked in as the rest of his teammates. He had some bad lapses on defense, like being non competitive against Maxey on a switch, and that ridiculous foul when he tried a rip through with his arm to get past an Embiid pick when in foul trouble.
After he missed some early shots, Tatum clearly deferred to a hot JB (while remaining active on the floor). The foul trouble seemed to get in his head, though, and his body language around that was pretty awful. I expect a bounce back tomorrow, but it was still odd to see him taken out of the flow of the game as the rest of the team took over in the third quarter.

It’s funny, my boy and I have been to 8 or so games over the past several years, and have only seen one TATUM game. In the others, he’s been downright putrid. And yet we’ve never seen a loss…
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,486
It’s funny, my boy and I have been to 8 or so games over the past several years, and have only seen one TATUM game. In the others, he’s been downright putrid. And yet we’ve never seen a loss…
Its a testament to the quality depth of this team that they can win when Tatum is ordinary or worse.

The best version of this team will be when Tatum goes off regularly within the framework of the offense, through higher efficiency and better decision making. I’d rather see catch and shoot Tatum make threes off great teamwork over In His Bag Tatum bust a three after eight dribbles while the other nine guys on the court watch
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
9,759
Boston, MA
After he missed some early shots, Tatum clearly deferred to a hot JB (while remaining active on the floor). The foul trouble seemed to get in his head, though, and his body language around that was pretty awful.
This is an underrated quality of Jason Tatum. That he recognizes nights when he's off, but even more impressively, he sees when JB is on a heater and in a bit of a zone and willingly subordinates his game to JB's. Last night was a great example. JT got in foul trouble early and couldn't be nearly as effective when he had to play slightly more tentatively than he'd like to. Enter JB, facilitated by JT, and the Celtics were still great.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
30,272
Having Smart guard Embiid and Brown on Harden was interesting from a PnR perspective. Grant on Embiid in that context also makes a lot of sense, since Harden doesn't have the speed any more to really blow by guys. He's more of a strength dude with his push-offs (legal as long as you don't extent the arm too far) these days, and Grant/Brown/Smart are all quite strong. Brown probably can't guard Embiid on a switch, but you're loading to Embiid anyway so he doesn't have to do it alone. Embiid is probably a bit warier of bodying Smart because of the charge-taking.

They loaded more rather than doubling, just shading towards Harden/Embid as needed, leaving themselves the option of recovering to shooters. And of course they got up into guys better and gave more effort on closeouts. I thought the Sixers shooters were fairly indecisive about whether to shoot the three because of those closeouts.

Celtics did a decent job with their pace. I remember the play where Embiid just drove past Horford and dunked and was impressed by how quickly White grabbed the ball and inbounded to Smart nearly instantly and Smart quickly got it in the front court, forcing Embiid to exert effort to get back in defensive position. Nothing came of it, but it's the right mindset.
Agreed---Celts defensive adjustments were much better and had impact, credit to CJM for getting there.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,872
After he missed some early shots, Tatum clearly deferred to a hot JB (while remaining active on the floor). The foul trouble seemed to get in his head, though, and his body language around that was pretty awful. I expect a bounce back tomorrow, but it was still odd to see him taken out of the flow of the game as the rest of the team took over in the third quarter.

It’s funny, my boy and I have been to 8 or so games over the past several years, and have only seen one TATUM game. In the others, he’s been downright putrid. And yet we’ve never seen a loss…
I think the types of fouls that got Tatum in trouble probably got into his head. On the 'charge' he was clearly pushed from behind and against Harden he was clearly bumped by Embiid. There was also an additional time he was picked by Embiid where he was moving far more than is allowed. I'm amazed that a 24 year old is able to keep his composure as well as he does.

As others have said..he also does all the other things other than scoring when he isn't having a good night and he's become a much less selfish player as he's gotten older and the team around him has gotten better. I think especially this year he's become a really good facilitator in addition to his scoring.

Mornings after Celtics wins are so much better than the alternative.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,441
Those Tucker/Chris Paul AAU teams must have been fun to play against back in the day. Ouch. (Yes, they were Greensboro Gater teammates)
They’re so old that I’d completely forgotten that. That team must’ve ballspiked their way to victory on many a night.
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
8,295
I already knew heading into this series, but after watching last night, it hit me like a ton of bricks again. This Sixers team is so easy to hate.

You’ve got Embiid and Harden, two of the worst kind of superstars. They both have all of the talent in the world but have made a conscious decision to make grifting/exaggerating/flipping a major part of their game. The play where Embiid fell over after Grant (who somehow Reggie Miller believes is 6’3) grazed him was absolutely fucking embarrassing.
PJ Tucker is an old cheap shot artist who basically has no offensive skill anymore outside of screens.
In a profession where a ton of coaches are major whiners, Doc Rivers stands out from the rest. Apparently, hes also made shifting blame and not accepting responsibility one of his core coaching pillars.

I really hope the Celtics get rid of them because I don’t want to watch that team play anymore than I have to. It would be even better if it was quick so then Reggie Miller can get off my TV too
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

RIP Dernell
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
7,005
Now that we know it's required, anyone know what time game 5 will be taking place on Tuesday? Nuggets/Suns Game 5 is the other potential game with Denver currently up 2-0. I'm guessing a 7:30 game if the Nuggets don't sweep, and 8:00 if they do?
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
7,708
The play where Embiid fell over after Grant (who somehow Reggie Miller believes is 6’3) grazed him was absolutely fucking embarrassing.
It surprises me that people don't feel embarassed by that kind of stuff. You're Embiid, are you really trying to pretend that a hand check from Grant Williams is going to send you flying?
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

RIP Dernell
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
7,005
Feels like we might have to wait until whether they know Celts game 5 will be the only game that night, or if there will be a game 5 in the suns nuggets series.
Agree. You caught me just before my stealth edit, but based on last night's game time and the other week night games it seems like it's gonna just be either 7:30 or 8.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
20,628
Pittsburgh, PA
So let's talk about this in not-the-Jaylen-Brown thread:

Watching the Drone feed last night was right out of the Blair Witch Project.
From what I saw,

- The drone feed had good image quality, but the framerate was so low, it looked like some video game console CPU was straining to keep up with the demands placed on its graphics chip.
- All they did was replace the usual midcourt feed with a slightly-higher-perspective feed. Was a huge missed opportunity to do a very different angle from behind the half-court play, like above midcourt or slightly in the backcourt
- Or, why not have the damn thing fly on the other side of the court from the usual midcourt angle that's our primary camera, so we can see the action from a reverse angle? Maybe that would be disconcerting because we all get this mental grounding in "okay, my team is going to the right, we're defending to the left", but I think for occasional brief cutaways it would be fine.
- Having it move back and forth in the foreground of the primary camera shot was distracting as shit, at first I thought I was witnessing the start of some terrorist act or performance art. Oh great, Greenpeace is going to land a drone telling us to Save The Whales and it's going to be a 20-minute delay. At the very least they have to use the drone a different way, so it doesn't draw the viewer's eye during the main camera shot.
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
8,295
So let's talk about this in not-the-Jaylen-Brown thread:



From what I saw,

- The drone feed had good image quality, but the framerate was so low, it looked like some video game console CPU was straining to keep up with the demands placed on its graphics chip.
- All they did was replace the usual midcourt feed with a slightly-higher-perspective feed. Was a huge missed opportunity to do a very different angle from behind the half-court play, like above midcourt or slightly in the backcourt
- Or, why not have the damn thing fly on the other side of the court from the usual midcourt angle that's our primary camera, so we can see the action from a reverse angle? Maybe that would be disconcerting because we all get this mental grounding in "okay, my team is going to the right, we're defending to the left", but I think for occasional brief cutaways it would be fine.
- Having it move back and forth in the foreground of the primary camera shot was distracting as shit, at first I thought I was witnessing the start of some terrorist act or performance art. Oh great, Greenpeace is going to land a drone telling us to Save The Whales and it's going to be a 20-minute delay. At the very least they have to use the drone a different way, so it doesn't draw the viewer's eye during the main camera shot.
It actually gave me a headache when they switched to it. It was really disorienting
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
8,295
It surprises me that people don't feel embarassed by that kind of stuff. You're Embiid, are you really trying to pretend that a hand check from Grant Williams is going to send you flying?
It’s funny that on defense he has the athleticism to contort his body and block shots while landing on his feet and remaining upright.

But on offense or loose balls, he falls and flops like his legs have atrophied
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
20,628
Pittsburgh, PA
Love that guy. He thinks every NBA game should be 16-12 when the clock expires.
It's like how I imagine watching a Celtics game would be with a few SoSH gamethread regulars who were a few drinks in, except that he's hating on the Celtics opponents rather than the Celtics.

At least half of what he points out are actual defensive mistakes or laziness, though.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
23,169
This is an underrated quality of Jason Tatum. That he recognizes nights when he's off, but even more impressively, he sees when JB is on a heater and in a bit of a zone and willingly subordinates his game to JB's. Last night was a great example. JT got in foul trouble early and couldn't be nearly as effective when he had to play slightly more tentatively than he'd like to. Enter JB, facilitated by JT, and the Celtics were still great.
Bird and McHale used to do this too. If Bird was on fire, they’d just keep getting him the ball but if McHale was on a roll, Bird was happy to let him keep eating someone’s lunch. Obviously Bird was the better player but he was just fine when McHale would go off.
 

Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
2,673
Boston, MA
- Having it move back and forth in the foreground of the primary camera shot was distracting as shit, at first I thought I was witnessing the start of some terrorist act or performance art. Oh great, Greenpeace is going to land a drone telling us to Save The Whales and it's going to be a 20-minute delay. At the very least they have to use the drone a different way, so it doesn't draw the viewer's eye during the main camera shot.
Live I was really hoping one of the cheerleading squad smashed it out of the air during the T-Shirt Toss. Actually, they should make that part of the festivities, really ramp it up a notch.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
7,708
So let's talk about this in not-the-Jaylen-Brown thread:



From what I saw,

- The drone feed had good image quality, but the framerate was so low, it looked like some video game console CPU was straining to keep up with the demands placed on its graphics chip.
- All they did was replace the usual midcourt feed with a slightly-higher-perspective feed. Was a huge missed opportunity to do a very different angle from behind the half-court play, like above midcourt or slightly in the backcourt
- Or, why not have the damn thing fly on the other side of the court from the usual midcourt angle that's our primary camera, so we can see the action from a reverse angle? Maybe that would be disconcerting because we all get this mental grounding in "okay, my team is going to the right, we're defending to the left", but I think for occasional brief cutaways it would be fine.
- Having it move back and forth in the foreground of the primary camera shot was distracting as shit, at first I thought I was witnessing the start of some terrorist act or performance art. Oh great, Greenpeace is going to land a drone telling us to Save The Whales and it's going to be a 20-minute delay. At the very least they have to use the drone a different way, so it doesn't draw the viewer's eye during the main camera shot.
I hope it wasn't distracting to the players. That's the last thing we need is for some conspiracy theory about how drone movement resulted in a key turnover.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
20,628
Pittsburgh, PA
I didn't really have a problem with the reffing last night. We got away with a few things, such as Marcus launching for a loose ball and landing on Tucker's calf/knee but no call, whereas Marcus and Embiid diving for a loose ball as it went out of bounds (off Marcus) became a call against Embiid when he landed on top of Marcus. There were 2 or 3 other times where I thought "oooh boy, got away with one there". Which probably means it was about even. By the standards of infuriating NBA reffing, this was a 1 out of 10: if you get upset by the calls last night, literally every game will infuriate you. Some games should! NBA refs are maddeningly inconsistent! But they're not always bad.
 

jablo1312

lurker
Sep 20, 2005
836
This is basically how I feel at this point. I want them to lock in but am trying to force myself to expect the worst.

micro stuff:
-smart w/ 1 TO in 27 minutes is huge. I'll live with some of floater game if he stops throwing pick 6's to the other team

-Get brogdon off of Harden as much as possible. Just not a good matchup for him.

-Make PJ Tucker make shots. He was pump faking ghosts in game 2. I expect him to take a few 3's more in g3. Thought this article laid it out pretty well: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/celtics-adjustment-james-harden-76ers-solve/ptj0udabkpvqniyh2xl3mkip

-Al needs to keep shooting when he's the only big on the floor. I do think he went after his own shot maybe 5-10% too aggresively but they need him to be a threat for spacing purposes.
-More targeted attacks vs Maxey, both JT & JB can shoot floaters and jumpers over him all day, or drive past him to pass.

-As stated by other posters the Celtics really should be running as much as they reasonably can. If Tucker is camped in the corner (he always is) + Harden and/or Embiid is driving to the hoop, the floor is tilted towards your offense and basically every guy in the rotation except for TimeLord can push the ball (Horford for example did a great job of this a few times). This becomes even better when harden is flailing into the basket support looking for a call, or Embiid is on the ground (which happens about half the time). You have an insane advantage if you push every time here, and they got a bunch of great looks out of this in g2.

-Targeted PnR to get Niang 1v1 vs Tatum/Brown/Brogdon. Play him off the court.

But above all else please for the love of god stop with the turnover we saw in g1/the finals/half the games vs MIA & MIL last year. They were miles better in G2 but they haven't shown the ability to do that consistently at this stage whatsoever. Lean more on Brogdon and less on Smart as a tertiary creator.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
29,100
Yeah that was a really heads up play. Any time they can make Embiid run it is to the Celtics advantage to do so. The big man was especially lumbering last night and I'm not sure he is going to get much conditioning and quickness back in this series.

I think the Celtics can run on Harden as well. He looked great in Game 1 with a long layoff between games but he does not appear to be in top physical shape and he is on the wrong side of 30. You could put P.J. Tucker in the same bucket.

Mazzulla is continuously urging the Celtics to push the pace which I think is generally the right thing to do and especially so in this series.
*Nothing* the Celtics do irritates me more than when they take 7.99999 seconds to get over halfcourt, and then another 5 or 6 to actually begin playing offense. Just going at top speed to the offensive 3point line on every possession will wipe out Embiid and hamper Harden and Tucker.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
28,910
They’re so old that I’d completely forgotten that. That team must’ve ballspiked their way to victory on many a night.
I saw them practice at our college once. They had like 10 D-1 stars. Carmelo, Felton, big guy Williams from Wake, but the best player on the floor that day was Justin Gray who was scoring on everyone.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
23,169
Here are the 18 games without Embiid (including playoffs):

beat Tor (playoff team)
beat Was
lost to Was
lost to NY (playoff team)
beat Brooklyn (playoff team - with Durant and Kyrie)
lost to Charlotte
beat Orlando
beat Orlando
beat Indiana
lost to Chicago
beat Det
beat Sac (playoff team)
beat Mia (playoff team)
lost to Den (playoff team)
beat Atl (playoff team)
beat Brooklyn (playoff team)
beat Brooklyn (playoff team)
beat Boston (playoff team)

So of these 18 games, 10 of them were against playoff teams, and they went 8-2 against those teams. They went 5-3 against non-playoff teams.
By contrast, here's Denver without Jokic in 2022-23:

lost to NYK (playoff team)
lost to Dal
beat Dal
beat LAC (playoff team)
beat Ind
lost to OKC
lost to Mil (playoff team)
lost to Min (playoff team)
lost to NO
lost to Phoenix (playoff team)
beat Golden State (playoff team)
lost to Phoenix (playoff team)
beat Sac (playoff team)

So Denver was 5-8 in games where Jokic didn't play. 2-3 against non-playoff teams, and 3-5 against playoff teams.

So comparing Jokic to Embiid...

Overall recored without Jokic/Embiid:
Den: 5-8 (.385)
Phi: 13-5 (.722)

Record against playoff teams without Jokic/Embiid:
Den: 3-5 (.375)
Phi: 8-2 (.800)

Record against non-playoff teams without Jokic/Embiid:
Den: 2-3 (.400)
Phi: 5-3 (.625)
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
23,169
Does any of this matter, if we don’t know the load management of the other teams?
I am not going to do the research to dig into the particulars of every game, the load management, whether those games were the second of a back-to-back, whether key players on other teams were missing due to injury, whether the reffing was good or bad, how many games were home vs. road, or any number of dozens of other factors that could be in play there. I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm just pointing out that out there in sports journalism we have stats and data presented like this all the time, and there's basically never (unless it's a deep dive in a long form essay like you might find in the Athletic) any real analysis like that you're referencing.

I just think that it's interesting that over the course of the season, the Nuggets suffered dramatically when Jokic was out, while the Sixers seemed to do really well without Embiid. It speaks to Jokic's greatness and doesn't speak that great of Embiid, even though he also is obviously a great player. I just wouldn't think that - even against a bevy of playoff teams - that the team with the MVP would do substantially better WITHOUT that MVP on the floor than with him, and not in a small sample size either.

If you don't think any of this matters, then please just disregard.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
20,628
Pittsburgh, PA
no I think it's on point, BJ. No sports analysis will ever have a sufficient dataset to fully answer all questions and fully control for all variables. But neither is it useless: we can infer some things, and/or weight some things lower (while still not weighting their conclusions as zeroes). At the very least, we ought to be surprised that Philly did so well with their MVP out, and it raises followup questions for people to dig into, time and inclination permitting.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
23,169
no I think it's on point, BJ. No sports analysis will ever have a sufficient dataset to fully answer all questions and fully control for all variables. But neither is it useless: we can infer some things, and/or weight some things lower (while still not weighting their conclusions as zeroes). At the very least, we ought to be surprised that Philly did so well with their MVP out, and it raises followup questions for people to dig into, time and inclination permitting.
Fair. I think we saw in Game 1 why Philly may have been successful without Embiid:

(1) Harden is freed up to be...James Harden. And when Harden is Harden, he absolutely is an offensive monster.
and
(2) They play a lot faster and freer without him. He's a phenomenal player (Embiid), obviously, but he also slows things down for them and sometimes their offense gets really bogged down. And they have some dynamic players who won't touch the ball nearly as much with Embiid in the lineup. Maybe their team mix just works better without him.

And so with that in mind, here's looking at the games without Embiid...

at Tor (W, 112-90) - Maxey 44 points (9-12 from three!), Harden 11 points on 9 shots
at Was (W, 118-111) - Harden 23 points, 17 (!) assists, Maxey 28 points, Harris 16, Melton 16
vs Was (L, 121-111) - Maxey 32 points, Harden 24 points, Harris 16
vs NY (L, 106-104) - Maxey 31 points, Harden 23 points
vs Brk (W, 115-106) - Harris 24 points, Melton 22 points, Reed 19 points, Niang 16 (no Harden)
at Cha (L, 107-101) - Milton (not Melton) 22 points, Melton 20, Harris 19 (no Harden)
at Orl (W, 107-99) - Milton 24 points, Harris 23 points, Niang 18 (no Harden)
at Orl (W, 133-103) - Milton 29 points, Harris 25 (no Harden)
vs Ind (W, 129-126) - Harden 26 points, Harris 19, Melton 19, Maxey 17
vs Chi (L, 126-112) - Maxey 26, Harris 22, Harden 17 points, 11 assists
at Det (W, 123-111) - Maxey 23, Harden 20, Harrell 20, Reed 16, Niang 14
at Sac (W, 129-127) - Maxey 32, Harris 17, Harrell 17, Niang 17 (no Harden)
at Mia (W, 119-96) - Maxey 27, Harden 23, Harris 18, Reed 16
at Den (L, 116-111) - Maxey 29, Harris 16, Reed 16 (no Harden)
at Atl (W, 136-131) - McDaniels 24, Niang 24, House 22 (no Harden)
at Brk (W, 134-105) - Milton 20, McClung 20, King 20, Reed 17, 7 in double figures (no Harden)
at Brk (W, 96-88) - Harris 25, Harden 17 points, 11 assists, Maxey 16, Melton 15
at Bos (W, 119-115) - Harden 45, Maxey 26, Harris 18, Melton 17

It seems like other guys just step up and get the chance to shine. Harden (contrary to my thesis above) really hasn't exploded all the time when Embiid has been out, but he's definitely had some big games. Players like Maxey and Melton have been given more opportunity to shine, and as it turns out, they're both pretty good. Turns out Reed is pretty good too. Averaged 4.5 points a game in the regular season but has really done well when playing serious minutes without Embiid.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
32,701
The biggest thing about non-Embiid Sixers is they can hunt guys like Horford.

Overall though, lots of teams have nice short boosts without stars, sustaining it is where they struggle
 

SteveF

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
1,481
The on-off numbers are better virtually across the board with Embiid on, but looking over the stats in those 16 games the Sixers were +45 Offensive rebounds and +33 total turnover advantage, +29 liveball turnover advantage. In the 66 games Embiid played, they were -177 Offensive rebounds, +17 total turnovers, +66 liveball turnovers.

So with Embiid out they win the shooting possession game more, which I suppose was one of the differences between g1 and g2.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,376
Cultural hub of the universe
The biggest thing about non-Embiid Sixers is they can hunt guys like Horford.

Overall though, lots of teams have nice short boosts without stars, sustaining it is where they struggle
I don't get this, why is it easier to hunt Horford when Embiid is off the floor?

FWIW Horford has the best DRating in the playoffs of any of the C's regulars.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
28,910
The on-off numbers are better virtually across the board with Embiid on, but looking over the stats in those 16 games the Sixers were +45 Offensive rebounds and +33 total turnover advantage, +29 liveball turnover advantage. In the 66 games Embiid played, they were -177 Offensive rebounds, +17 total turnovers, +66 liveball turnovers.

So with Embiid out they win the shooting possession game more, which I suppose was one of the differences between g1 and g2.
The Sixers are a completely different dynamic when their second unit is in the game when Embiid rests compared to their starting units approach when he is in street clothes. On/Off alone doesn’t capture this.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
32,701
I don't get this, why is it easier to hunt Horford when Embiid is off the floor?

FWIW Horford has the best DRating in the playoffs of any of the C's regulars.
because they can play essentially no bigs so there is no good matchup for him, also they aren't going to make Embiid screen every action, he gets tired, and frankly they'd rather run offense through him than use him as a screener, because he's an elite scorer.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
5,376
Cultural hub of the universe
because they can play essentially no bigs so there is no good matchup for him, also they aren't going to make Embiid screen every action, he gets tired, and frankly they'd rather run offense through him than use him as a screener, because he's an elite scorer.
The second part makes sense, thanks. If Embiid isn't in the game then it seems the matchup is Reed or Tucker, which are hardly bad matchups. Maybe Harris if they go really small but I wouldn't worry about that pairing either.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,284
where I was last at
I laughed when CJM said the Celts were angry and PISSED going into G2 and he liked the attitude.

I love the attitude and reccomended exactly that after the G5 loss to the Hawks.


64393

Keep the Celts PISSED JOE and don't let the 76ers off the mat.
 

Shaky Walton

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 20, 2019
696
I know that this isn't a media thread but it's interesting to me how little I've read in the Globe and elsewhere about how little Tatum contributed to Game 2. It's as if it's the elephant in the room. I'm not in Boston or even New England, and I'm sure it's been covered on TV and the radio.

But the extent to which it's been ignored in print is noticeable.

I hope JT hits a few shots early to put whatever hangover impact out this might have out of his head.

It didn't stop them in Game 2 but Tatum is such a great player, to state the obvious...they will need more of him as the series continues, one would think.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
1,190
I hope JT hits a few shots early to put whatever hangover impact out this might have out of his head.
He didn't have to. The game was out of hand by the middle of the third quarter. He only played 19 minutes. I hope the takeaway after the game for him is "I don't need to press on offense - White, Brogdon, etc. are more than capable of scoring on the Sixers" not "I personally need to score for this team to be successful."
 

Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
2,673
Boston, MA
Yeah, I think what it should show them is that their depth is an enormous strength, and they should continue to be super physical on both sides of the court, and not be afraid of fouls. Seems to me a lot of the success of the Warriors and Heat is they are handsy all of the time and are not afraid of guys fouling out, if need be. Next guy just steps up. C's can do that too.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
28,910
He didn't have to. The game was out of hand by the middle of the third quarter. He only played 19 minutes. I hope the takeaway after the game for him is "I don't need to press on offense - White, Brogdon, etc. are more than capable of scoring on the Sixers" not "I personally need to score for this team to be successful."
Exactly. He struggled with the foul trouble and got the chance to exhale while getting the chance to take rest of night off. It's like the starting pitcher who throws 115 high leverage pitches each start and you have a chance to get him out after struggling through 5 IP and 85 pitches bc you've got a 16-5 lead.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
45,976
Weiss put out this piece in today's Athletic about Mazzulla's G2 adjustments. I thought they were great and indicative of a young coach who leans in to tweaking things (this applies to Mazzulla's entire body of work imo). Maybe I will someday join the chorus of Mazzulla doubters but everything I have seen suggests he has the potential to be pretty good.

I don't share the view that they would definitely be better off with Udoka or if they kept Hardy - (what suggests that either would be better than Mazzulla with this team?) but I can't say for certain. What has me modestly bullish on him is that he has shown growth all year.

Then, there was the matchup change, as Mazzulla had Brown be Harden’s primary defender for the majority of the game while Smart kind of bounced around to differently, including Harden. The Sixers star went 0-of-8 shooting over Smart and Brown in Game 2 after burying countless contested shots in Game 1.
Also, for his critics, just know you are being heard:

Then, as is tradition, he had one last thing to say as he walked away.

“I am the worst coach ever,” he sarcastically mumbled.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
29,548
Yeah, I think what it should show them is that their depth is an enormous strength, and they should continue to be super physical on both sides of the court, and not be afraid of fouls. Seems to me a lot of the success of the Warriors and Heat is they are handsy all of the time and are not afraid of guys fouling out, if need be. Next guy just steps up. C's can do that too.
I'm pretty sure I heard on the broadcast that the Cs were proud that they didn't foul Harden in G1, which is interesting to me. Seemed to me that they were so conscious of not fouling that they didn't get into Harden's air space like they did in G2. So yes, being up on people on defense is a precursor to making them uncomfortable, which is a precursor of good defense.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
7,229
Imaginationland
I'm pretty sure I heard on the broadcast that the Cs were proud that they didn't foul Harden in G1, which is interesting to me. Seemed to me that they were so conscious of not fouling that they didn't get into Harden's air space like they did in G2. So yes, being up on people on defense is a precursor to making them uncomfortable, which is a precursor of good defense.
Yeah I heard that same comment and it seemed bizarre considered he had just roasted them in game 1. Obviously you don't want to foul any shooters, especially ones who are good at getting to the line (and great at hitting free throws), but when defending a guy like Harden (one of the best offensive players of the last decade) it seems like a few trips to the line is an acceptable byproduct of strong defense. Being proud of not fouling a guy who went 17-30 for 45 points makes no damn sense. Especially when he followed it up with a 2-14 game for 12 points. Was the defense worse because he had 10 free throws in game 2, compared to just 4 in game 1?
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,831
Saskatoon Canada
After he missed some early shots, Tatum clearly deferred to a hot JB (while remaining active on the floor). The foul trouble seemed to get in his head, though, and his body language around that was pretty awful. I expect a bounce back tomorrow, but it was still odd to see him taken out of the flow of the game as the rest of the team took over in the third quarter.

It’s funny, my boy and I have been to 8 or so games over the past several years, and have only seen one TATUM game. In the others, he’s been downright putrid. And yet we’ve never seen a loss…
His body language will always suck, and though it bothers me in the moment, that is just who he is. What I see from how the team likes his kid, embraces him it may not be that important. Now if he carried himself like Jimy Butler or Curyy (two different but inspirational stars) it may make the Cs a bit better.

A bigger concern is him figuring out when to exert himself and dominate the ball and when not to. It is possible, since this team can score his effort on D may be more important. I worry if he isn't scoring he doesn't just accept he can do his part to win on the boards and on D.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
20,628
Pittsburgh, PA
Weiss put out this piece in today's Athletic about Mazzulla's G2 adjustments. I thought they were great and indicative of a young coach who leans in to tweaking things (this applies to Mazzulla's entire body of work imo). Maybe I will someday join the chorus of Mazzulla doubters but everything I have seen suggests he has the potential to be pretty good.

I don't share the view that they would definitely be better off with Udoka or if they kept Hardy - (what suggests that either would be better than Mazzulla with this team?) but I can't say for certain. What has me modestly bullish on him is that he has shown growth all year.
There's a lot more room for optimism with a young coach than an old one, which is something his critics - myself occasionally among them - probably don't factor in as much. The guy is the youngest coach in the NBA, handed the keys to a Ferrari of a team. We can't expect well-honed plans and techniques and emotion-management of a game and working of the refs or whatever else a fan might want to see. But we CAN expect growth. If you hire, I dunno, 71yo George Karl right now, you have a very firm idea of what you're getting (at best), and there's no way for you to expect him to suddenly adjust to new wrinkles the league has discovered. But every one of us can much more reasonably expect 34yo Mazzulla to roll with the punches and learn his trade, even innovate, given his age. We can and should all be optimistic about his learning curve. Christ, he's younger than most of the posters here, myself included. I guess what I'm saying is, if he can change, and I can change... then everyone can change!