Celtics vs 76ers, Round 2 Discussion

[benhogan]

It's way too early/reactionary to talk about blowing it up. The Celtics can still win this.

Going double BIG might be a consideration but sitting White means Andrew Maxey will be given free rein. And I doubt CJM won't start Smart.

The only post-script I'll put on the Celtics right now is that the coaching staff has been seriously depleted (IME, Will, and Damon all left) with no Coaching help brought in. Promoting a 34-yr old Rookie HC with a "lesser" staff has been apparent over the 11 playoff games so far.

Obviously, you don't fire Joe, overall he has done well in his first season but Brad needs to add experienced coaching to the staff.

 

[bsan34]

With a night's sleep, I've no idea what to make of Thursday.

On the one hand, how many 3-1 and 3-2 leads has Doc blown? And what's Playoff Harden's record?

On the other hand, 1000000% agree (as I think we all do) that the coaching staff needs some serious reinforcements. Joe's getting the clown suit put on him by Doc.

 

[NomarsFool]

The offense that was nailing it for most of the regular season is really struggling. I don't know if that's because the Sixers have made adjustments and the Celtics' coaching staff hasn't made the right adjustments, or it is just as simple as Al Horford (and others) suddenly going ice-cold from behind the 3P line.

They put in PP, and I could be wrong here, but I didn't remember him even taking a shot when the game was still winnable. Maybe that was just situational, but also seems like it could have been the Celtics not running the right sets/actions.

I'm wondering if the Celtics need to just go with playing Embiid straight up, let him tire himself out and score 50 points, but everyone else doesn't kill you with 3P shots.

And a consistent theme throughout this series, why can't the Celtics get Jaylen Brown more shots? Some of the games he's been in foul trouble, so it's a minutes issue, but in the others?

 

[Mooch]

They’ve got to shut down the Maxey/Harden pick and roll. It seems like they made the wrong choices every single time on that set. If CJM can’t figure that out, he deserves to be shown the door. Simple as that.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I just wonder about Joe's ability to make strategic adjustments on the fly. One big adjustment in the series was putting JB on Harden but that was JB's idea. Would games 2-5 just have been Harden annihilating Brogdon if JB didn't step up? It also seems like they've moved away from persistently bodying and harassing Embiid the past two games. Reggie Miller for all his faults was right about how the Sixers and Embiid were controlling the pace of the game on offense. He seemed way too comfortable getting the ball, surveying the landscape, and hitting those deadly mid-range jumpers which he really wasn't doing in games two and three. One big advantage they need to take advantage of is his conditioning. Dude looked like he was going to collapse in the losses and barely breaking a sweat winning two in a row. Two quick fouls on Grant (the second one being comically bad) and he doesn't see the floor ever again? Zero consideration for Hauser? At least let him try and fail instead of rotting on the bench.

I feel like if JM was a baseball manager he'd stick the speedy low OBP guy in the lead-off spot and only ever use his closer in save situations.

 

[Ed Hillel]

The key to our success against PHI has generally been Horford, he's the only guy who really defends Embiid decently and that they respect from 3... problem is when he goes 0-7 we're basically screwed, we both need those points and need the threat to keep the defense honestly.

TL isn't good at covering Embiid, and Embiid straight up ignores him as an offensive threat... we got a couple lobs out of it, but they'll give us those, because it's not a volume threat and the advantge of Embiid just getting into every drive we try because TL is no threat outside 5 feet is huge for their D.

He's both not the same guy, and this is one of his worst matchups anyway.

TimeLord’s coming out party a couple years ago was against Embiid, as I recall. He shut him down with energetic, physical defense, and added I think 15-20 points. Giannis was always the guy he struggled with because he plows in from the 3 point line, whereas Embiid is more of the gradual backing down, which Old Timelord could handle.

Edit - Instantly wondering if I’m conflating his defense on Anthony Davis with a big offensive game he had against Philly.

Regardless, the point is you had a Double Double machine and THE interior enforcer now relegated to this. Williams was the best defensive player in the league for that glorious half season he was healthy last year. I beat this drum a lot, but imo he was the second most important piece to building a title contender behind Tatum.

 

[8slim]

If they lose to the Sixers, then it proves that the roster needs improvement. And it's difficult to see how they could improve this roster, as the all-to-brief vintage Rob Williams is not coming back through that door and they don't have the assets to address that. Of course, they were down 3-2 to the Bucks last year, so I will hold off on any further post-mortems until necessary.

I understood “can’t run it back” to mean moving on from the core. Perhaps I’m wrong.

They’ll certainly need to address the 5 spot even if they win the title this year. And every team tinkers with the extended rotation year to year.

I just don’t think you can “blow it up”.

 

[NomarsFool]

If Al can't hit any 3s, do you try Muscala? I realize it's a huge defensive downgrade - but we seem to be really struggling to score.

 

[Ed Hillel]

If they lose to the Sixers, then it proves that the roster needs improvement. And it's difficult to see how they could improve this roster, as the all-to-brief vintage Rob Williams is not coming back through that door and they don't have the assets to address that. Of course, they were down 3-2 to the Bucks last year, so I will hold off on any further post-mortems until necessary.

Vintage Rob might return. I am not a doctor, of course, but I question the way his rehab was handled. You need to build back up to consistent, high stress minutes, and he was handled with mostly kids gloves until the playoffs. He flashed Vintage Rob the first few games and has slowed down since. Whether he reinjured it or it’s just muscle fatigue from building them back up I’m not sure, but the main point is Vintage Rob did show up, so he hasn’t physically lost the ability yet.

 

[Jimbodandy]

If Al can't hit any 3s, do you try Muscala? I realize it's a huge defensive downgrade - but we seem to be really struggling to score.

How much worse could the defense get?

 

[NomarsFool]

How much worse could the defense get?

I think Al has been great on defense, for the most part.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I think Al has been great on defense, for the most part.

The team defense has been garbage. Normally I'd be worried about substituting a poor defender because the rest of the defense is weakened helping, getting into rotation, or getting abused on P&R. That's already happening.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I think people have trouble objectively analyzing TimeLord. If he makes an earth-shattering block "the old Rob is back!!!" if someone slips by him for an easy bucket "TimeLord is dead and never coming back." He mainly looks the same to me, but certainly, a bit diminished. Maybe it's his health. Maybe he benefited by playing next to Al more in 2022. Maybe he looks bad because Brodgon is a sieve and Rob can't be relied on to clean up his messes at the rim for 20 minutes a night. Maybe it's a combination of many factors.

It sucks that the lob game has disappeared, which, imo, is mainly on the guards who have been tossing up comically poor pass attempts.

 

[Bleedred]

I'm resigned to their fate. Not giving up hope, but hope is what I have, not confidence. I thought Tatum actually played hard and tried to force the action, didn't settle too much for outside shots, and while he put up a decent point total, his efficiency was poor. Brogdon and Al were putrid on offense. Al was likely tired. Brogdon, not sure what it was. I hope it was aberrational. CJM's press conference was uninspiring. Not that one would expect anything more than coach speak, but there seemed to be some cognitive dissonance in evaluating how his team played, their effort. He acknowledged they didn't play well, but he never put his finger on why they were flat. I understand he won't be delivering pearls of wisdom per se, but we've all seen Doc, Steve Kerr, Spoelstra, Popovich, etc. matter of factly be more direct about what has to improve. Yes, those coaches are all veterans, but CJM seemed shook. Again, I'm all-in for this team, but I think it ends in Philly on Thursday.

 

[Strike4]

The big thing I have learned from the Celtics playoff run is that a team maturing/gelling/whatever is an uneven process and, for many teams, this cake might not bake. We've all spent the last several years watching upstart, talent-poor Celtics teams make impressive playoff runs with young players and about 1/3 of the talent of the current Celtics team. "Wow, when these guys get more experience and some key role players, they will be great for a long time." It's human nature, and we had low expectations which were easily exceeded. But along the way, some elements of that progression get disrupted - Jaylen Brown is still having some mental lapses and losing the handle at bad times; Tatum is an alpha but not quite where he has been in the regular season; Al is aging; RW is hampered by injuries; the new head coach is having a bumpy ride in the playoffs. And so on.

I used to see other teams play with poise and confidently close out games/series and be like "someday, when all that gelling takes place, the Celtics will do this too". But maybe it's just not going to work out that way. NBA history is littered with teams that were formidable for several years but then sort of faded away when they couldn't make it work - 90's Blazers, 90's Cavs, 90's Jazz, 80's Hawks, etc. Maybe the Celtics win this series - but maybe there are just too many little issues that can't be addressed on the fly and it saps the team's ability just enough that they fall short. Doesn't mean they are mentally weak or chokers or whatever, but I do think we need to adjust our expectations of what this team is capable of doing.

 

[NomarsFool]

I'm frustrated that Tatum hasn't had more success, but I actually feel like he's played reasonably well. He's been great on the boards, had a number of key blocks, and I feel like he's stepped up with some big baskets in key situations. I know the usual wisdom is that he's the superstar best player and he needs to assert his will and win the game singlehandedly, but it feels a lot like the rest of the team is letting him down by being so cold from outside.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I just wonder about Joe's ability to make strategic adjustments on the fly. One big adjustment in the series was putting JB on Harden but that was JB's idea. Would games 2-5 just have been Harden annihilating Brogdon if JB didn't step up? It also seems like they've moved away from persistently bodying and harassing Embiid the past two games. Reggie Miller for all his faults was right about how the Sixers and Embiid were controlling the pace of the game on offense. He seemed way too comfortable getting the ball, surveying the landscape, and hitting those deadly mid-range jumpers which he really wasn't doing in games two and three. One big advantage they need to take advantage of is his conditioning. Dude looked like he was going to collapse in the losses and barely breaking a sweat winning two in a row. Two quick fouls on Grant (the second one being comically bad) and he doesn't see the floor ever again? Zero consideration for Hauser? At least let him try and fail instead of rotting on the bench.

I feel like if JM was a baseball manager he'd stick the speedy low OBP guy in the lead-off spot and only ever use his closer in save situations.

I talked about it late last night in the game thread, but the fact that we are playing a team that has only 4 offensive players on the court for most of the game, and using one of our best defenders in Tatum to stand there in the corner and guard him is insane, to me.

PJ Tucker played another 34 minutes last night, took 4 shots, and made 1 of them. Why does Joe have Tatum guarding him? Stick Brogdon down there to cover their corner shooter (which is usually Tucker) and use Tatum up top so we can do something about this PnR that is destroying us. If Tucker comes out and sets the screen for Harden and we end up with Brogdon or White, etc. on Tucker, immediately double team Harden. PJ Tucker is not going to beat you as a rim runner, he's probably not even taking a 3 from above the arc if it does get passed back to him.

It just seems like the Sixers are consistently hunting Brogdon and Al and creating mismatches on our defense, and a big part of that is because Tatum is being asked to guard. Nobody.

Meanwhile, on the offensive end, we still have not figured out how to hunt their terrible defenders. We're dragging TL or Al out to the 3 point line to set screens, so our ball handler can get switched from fucking Maxey or Harden onto Embiid. It's like "you set the screen this time, I'll set the screen next time" without any thought as how that screen is going to help a mismatch. If Jaylen or Tatum are at the top and Maxey is guarding them, get the fuck out of the way, there is no reason to set or fake set a screen and bring another defender out there. You've got 2 all world scorers, and when they get those mismatches, let them eat.

 

[NomarsFool]

Some of it reminded me of Game 1 where I felt like our strategy was "Hey, Philly, we will switch the same way so that you have whatever matchup you want".

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I feel like Tatum is on Tucker so he can be the guy that doubles, which is fine in theory but besides games 2 and 3 it's not really happening. Also, I'm starting to wonder if JB being tasked with sticking on Harden is wearing him out and sapping his effectiveness on the offensive end.

Al's cratering three-ball game and Brodgon's rough play on the defensive end are having some pretty devastating cascading effects.

 

[Red Averages]

I talked about it late last night in the game thread, but the fact that we are playing a team that has only 4 offensive players on the court for most of the game, and using one of our best defenders in Tatum to stand there in the corner and guard him is insane, to me.

PJ Tucker played another 34 minutes last night, took 4 shots, and made 1 of them. Why does Joe have Tatum guarding him? Stick Brogdon down there to cover their corner shooter (which is usually Tucker) and use Tatum up top so we can do something about this PnR that is destroying us. If Tucker comes out and sets the screen for Harden and we end up with Brogdon or White, etc. on Tucker, immediately double team Harden. PJ Tucker is not going to beat you as a rim runner, he's probably not even taking a 3 from above the arc if it does get passed back to him.

It just seems like the Sixers are consistently hunting Brogdon and Al and creating mismatches on our defense, and a big part of that is because Tatum is being asked to guard. Nobody.

Meanwhile, on the offensive end, we still have not figured out how to hunt their terrible defenders. We're dragging TL or Al out to the 3 point line to set screens, so our ball handler can get switched from fucking Maxey or Harden onto Embiid. It's like "you set the screen this time, I'll set the screen next time" without any thought as how that screen is going to help a mismatch. If Jaylen or Tatum are at the top and Maxey is guarding them, get the fuck out of the way, there is no reason to set or fake set a screen and bring another defender out there. You've got 2 all world scorers, and when they get those mismatches, let them eat.

Completely agree with this.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Tucker in the corner should be guarded by precisely nobody. He should get the Rondo treatment, you can defend 5 on 4 and make him prove it every game.

I really wish I understood what happened with Brad. Did Kyrie sap his desire to coach basketball forever? Because I can see that. Otherwise, it’s all so strange.

 

[Cellar-Door]

TimeLord’s coming out party a couple years ago was against Embiid, as I recall. He shut him down with energetic, physical defense, and added I think 15-20 points. Giannis was always the guy he struggled with because he plows in from the 3 point line, whereas Embiid is more of the gradual backing down, which Old Timelord could handle.

Edit - Instantly wondering if I’m conflating his defense on Anthony Davis with a big offensive game he had against Philly.

Regardless, the point is you had a Double Double machine and THE interior enforcer now relegated to this. Williams was the best defensive player in the league for that glorious half season he was healthy last year. I beat this drum a lot, but imo he was the second most important piece to building a title contender behind Tatum.

he's generally not that good on guys like Embiid, that's why the Horford pairing used to work, Al got on the big bodies, TL played FS and came over. What he did do well in past PHI games was be the double and force Embiid turnovers, but Embiid has massively improved his passing out of doubles, so now it's less effective.

Tucker in the corner should be guarded by precisely nobody. He should get the Rondo treatment, you can defend 5 on 4 and make him prove it every game.

I really wish I understood what happened with Brad. Did Kyrie sap his desire to coach basketball forever? Because I can see that. Otherwise, it’s all so strange.

Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown didn't want him to be their coach anymore is really the simplest part of why he isn't the Celtics coach. As to why no coaching at all, think he got burned out, plus wanted the new challenge of the front office. Think the lifestyle is better with kids too, travel a bit less, hours are different, etc.

 

[bsan34]

Tucker in the corner should be guarded by precisely nobody. He should get the Rondo treatment, you can defend 5 on 4 and make him prove it every game.

I really wish I understood what happened with Brad. Did Kyrie sap his desire to coach basketball forever? Because I can see that. Otherwise, it’s all so strange.

He'd just run his course with this group.

 

[BaseballJones]

Horford took 7 shots last night. All from three. He went 0-7.

He's not THE reason they lost, but he's a big reason they lost. They were all wide open looks and he bricked them all. This is a guy who, during the regular season, shot 44.6% from three. He had the second best three-point shooting percentage in the entire NBA (qualified players) this year. And he went 0-7.

In the two games they won, Horford shot 6-15 (40.0%) from three, though one was a 5-7 game and the other (the game the Celtics blew Philly out) he was 1-8.

In the three games they lost, Horford shot 3-18 (16.7%) from three, and his best shooting game of the bunch was a 2-7 performance (28.6%) in game 4.

If he's going to be in the game, Embiid has to respect Horford's three point shooting, or else he'll just stay in the paint and protect the rim. When Horford shoots like he has been, Embiid doesn't have to go out on him. So not only do the Celtics lose Horford's threes, they also lose points in the paint as Embiid stays there to block shots.

The Celtics don't need Horford to put up 25 points a game. They DO, however, need him to hit the open shots he has, which will not only score them points, it will open up the paint for others to score inside.

 

[BaseballJones]

I'm frustrated that Tatum hasn't had more success, but I actually feel like he's played reasonably well. He's been great on the boards, had a number of key blocks, and I feel like he's stepped up with some big baskets in key situations. I know the usual wisdom is that he's the superstar best player and he needs to assert his will and win the game singlehandedly, but it feels a lot like the rest of the team is letting him down by being so cold from outside.

Tatum is weird, man. I don't know what to make of him. It felt like he played pretty poorly last night, and I know part of that is that the expectations for him are so, so high.

In the three games they've lost, Tatum has done this:

G1: 39 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 turnover
G4: 24 points, 18 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 blocks, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
G5: 36 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 2 steals, 2 turnovers

So an average of 33.0 points, 13.0 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.7 blocks, 1.3 steals, and just 1.7 turnovers (so a 3.1:1 Ast:TO ratio, which is excellent).

I mean, you look at that line and it's basically superhuman, MVP type stuff. But they've LOST all three of those games. And it just doesn't feel like he's playing that great.

So what's going on here? How do we explain all this?

 

[Auger34]

Horford took 7 shots last night. All from three. He went 0-7.

He's not THE reason they lost, but he's a big reason they lost. They were all wide open looks and he bricked them all. This is a guy who, during the regular season, shot 44.6% from three. He had the second best three-point shooting percentage in the entire NBA (qualified players) this year. And he went 0-7.

In the two games they won, Horford shot 6-15 (40.0%) from three, though one was a 5-7 game and the other (the game the Celtics blew Philly out) he was 1-8.

In the three games they lost, Horford shot 3-18 (16.7%) from three, and his best shooting game of the bunch was a 2-7 performance (28.6%) in game 4.

If he's going to be in the game, Embiid has to respect Horford's three point shooting, or else he'll just stay in the paint and protect the rim. When Horford shoots like he has been, Embiid doesn't have to go out on him. So not only do the Celtics lose Horford's threes, they also lose points in the paint as Embiid stays there to block shots.

The Celtics don't need Horford to put up 25 points a game. They DO, however, need him to hit the open shots he has, which will not only score them points, it will open up the paint for others to score inside.

I was thinking about this last night….it really does seem like Horford is the key for this team.

As you said, if he can’t make a wide open 3, theres no reason to respect his shot. If they don’t respect his shot then Embiid can just clog the paint and stop their drives.

I’m going to put my fan hat on and say that I have full confidence in Al. If I am one of the assistants oj the team, I am finding every article written about Al when he was in Philly and stapling it to his locker. About how he was finished, what a bust he was, how he couldn’t hack it there. I am putting together clips of him being booed and getting shit on by local media. Reminding him that someone laughed at him being an elite shooter
The Celtics need a pissed off Al Horford tomorrow

 

[BigSoxFan]

Horford took 7 shots last night. All from three. He went 0-7.

He's not THE reason they lost, but he's a big reason they lost. They were all wide open looks and he bricked them all. This is a guy who, during the regular season, shot 44.6% from three. He had the second best three-point shooting percentage in the entire NBA (qualified players) this year. And he went 0-7.

In the two games they won, Horford shot 6-15 (40.0%) from three, though one was a 5-7 game and the other (the game the Celtics blew Philly out) he was 1-8.

In the three games they lost, Horford shot 3-18 (16.7%) from three, and his best shooting game of the bunch was a 2-7 performance (28.6%) in game 4.

If he's going to be in the game, Embiid has to respect Horford's three point shooting, or else he'll just stay in the paint and protect the rim. When Horford shoots like he has been, Embiid doesn't have to go out on him. So not only do the Celtics lose Horford's threes, they also lose points in the paint as Embiid stays there to block shots.

The Celtics don't need Horford to put up 25 points a game. They DO, however, need him to hit the open shots he has, which will not only score them points, it will open up the paint for others to score inside.

Perfect timing after he scoffed at a reporter for laughing when he called himself an “elite” shooter. When Horford is bad, our team usually follows. He and White are really the litmus test for this team.

 

[Bleedred]

Tatum is weird, man. I don't know what to make of him. It felt like he played pretty poorly last night, and I know part of that is that the expectations for him are so, so high.

In the three games they've lost, Tatum has done this:

G1: 39 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 turnover
G4: 24 points, 18 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 blocks, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
G5: 36 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 2 steals, 2 turnovers

So an average of 33.0 points, 13.0 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.7 blocks, 1.3 steals, and just 1.7 turnovers (so a 3.1:1 Ast:TO ratio, which is excellent).

I mean, you look at that line and it's basically superhuman, MVP type stuff. But they've LOST all three of those games. And it just doesn't feel like he's playing that great.

So what's going on here? How do we explain all this?

Is it possible that Jaylen Brown isn't the No. 2 everyone thinks he is? Answering my own question, I think JB is absolutely good enough as the 2nd banana and we can win a championship with this team. Only KD and Booker and Lebron and AD (the way they're playing right now) are arguably better. Maybe Jokic and Murray.

 

[Auger34]

Perfect timing after he scoffed at a reporter for laughing when he called himself an “elite” shooter. When Horford is bad, our team usually follows. He and White are really the litmus test for this team.

That’s a great point. I had forgotten about White but he’s another barometer…..and the fact that I forgot about him probably helps explain the loss last night.

White needs to be confident and let it rip. Do all of the small things that he was so great at in the regular season.

I wish the game was tonight, I’m ready to see what this team has when it’s back is truly against the wall

 

[BaseballJones]

Is it possible that Jaylen Brown isn't the No. 2 everyone thinks he is? Answering my own question, I think JB is absolutely good enough as the 2nd banana and we can win a championship with this team. Only KD and Booker and Lebron and AD (the way they're playing right now) are arguably better. Maybe Jokic and Murray.

I don't know. I mean, here's his 5 games this series:

G1 (L): 8-10 FG, 23 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers
G2 (W): 9-17 FG, 25 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 turnover
G3 (W): 8-18 FG, 23 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 turnovers
G4 (L): 10-16 FG, 23 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 turnover
G5 (L): 9-16 FG, 24 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers

AVG: 57.1% FG, 23.6 points, 5.0 rebounds, 4.0 assists, 2.6 turnovers

Seems like a pretty solid and (game-by-game anyway) consistent second banana.

 

[tims4wins]

I don't know. I mean, here's his 5 games this series:

G1 (L): 8-10 FG, 23 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers
G2 (W): 9-17 FG, 25 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 turnover
G3 (W): 8-18 FG, 23 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 turnovers
G4 (L): 10-16 FG, 23 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 turnover
G5 (L): 9-16 FG, 24 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers

AVG: 57.1% FG, 23.6 points, 5.0 rebounds, 4.0 assists, 2.6 turnovers

Seems like a pretty solid and (game-by-game anyway) consistent second banana.

This is about as consistent as it gets

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Tucker in the corner should be guarded by precisely nobody. He should get the Rondo treatment, you can defend 5 on 4 and make him prove it every game.

I really wish I understood what happened with Brad. Did Kyrie sap his desire to coach basketball forever? Because I can see that. Otherwise, it’s all so strange.

Folks, talk to me about this. Watch what Joe has Tatum doing on defense, as our bigs get fucking chewed up on PnR's at the top. Over and over and over again:

View: https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1656119229756612608

 

[Bleedred]

I don't know. I mean, here's his 5 games this series:

G1 (L): 8-10 FG, 23 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers
G2 (W): 9-17 FG, 25 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 turnover
G3 (W): 8-18 FG, 23 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 turnovers
G4 (L): 10-16 FG, 23 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 turnover
G5 (L): 9-16 FG, 24 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers

AVG: 57.1% FG, 23.6 points, 5.0 rebounds, 4.0 assists, 2.6 turnovers

Seems like a pretty solid and (game-by-game anyway) consistent second banana.

Right. Your post doesn't contradict mine. I think JB is plenty good enough playing Pippen to Tatum's Jordan (no, neither JB nor JT are as good as Pippen or Jordan). I'm at a loss. Rookie/overmatched coach + aging Al, + defensively challenged Malcolm + diminishing Marcus = Not quite there?

 

[Leon Trotsky]

Perfect timing after he scoffed at a reporter for laughing when he called himself an “elite” shooter. When Horford is bad, our team usually follows. He and White are really the litmus test for this team.

Yes, Horford and White hitting ANY 3's is the key.

JB was also horrific on defense for the whole game. He just had a really bad overall game and he needs to be much better or they are toast.

I will say I was wildly disappointed after the game last night, but coming in the Cellar always cheers me up with the over the top doom and gloom. This team can win two games in a row, and I have hope!

 

[BaseballJones]

Would ANYONE here be shocked if the Celtics put together a great game tomorrow night and beat Philly? I sure wouldn't be. This team is weird.

 

[tims4wins]

Folks, talk to me about this. Watch what Joe has Tatum doing on defense, as our bigs get fucking chewed up on PnR's at the top. Over and over and over again:

View: https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1656119229756612608

All the more maddening that he can't shoot if he isn't being asked to exert effort on D

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Would ANYONE here be shocked if the Celtics put together a great game tomorrow night and beat Philly? I sure wouldn't be. This team is weird.

Not at all. It wouldn't surprise me to see them go blow out Philly tomorrow by 20.

It also, unfortunately, wouldn't surprise me to see them come home and get blown out in game 7.

Such is the way with this team.

 

[BaseballJones]

Just to compare series stat lines....

Tatum: 45.5% FG, 26.6 points, 11.2 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.4 blocks
Embiid: 44.2% FG, 28.0 points, 9.0 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 0.5 steals, 3.3 blocks

Looking at those numbers, I'd say Tatum is having a better series. But it sure doesn't FEEL like that, does it?

 

[Mooch]

The big thing I have learned from the Celtics playoff run is that a team maturing/gelling/whatever is an uneven process and, for many teams, this cake might not bake. We've all spent the last several years watching upstart, talent-poor Celtics teams make impressive playoff runs with young players and about 1/3 of the talent of the current Celtics team. "Wow, when these guys get more experience and some key role players, they will be great for a long time." It's human nature, and we had low expectations which were easily exceeded. But along the way, some elements of that progression get disrupted - Jaylen Brown is still having some mental lapses and losing the handle at bad times; Tatum is an alpha but not quite where he has been in the regular season; Al is aging; RW is hampered by injuries; the new head coach is having a bumpy ride in the playoffs. And so on.

I used to see other teams play with poise and confidently close out games/series and be like "someday, when all that gelling takes place, the Celtics will do this too". But maybe it's just not going to work out that way. NBA history is littered with teams that were formidable for several years but then sort of faded away when they couldn't make it work - 90's Blazers, 90's Cavs, 90's Jazz, 80's Hawks, etc. Maybe the Celtics win this series - but maybe there are just too many little issues that can't be addressed on the fly and it saps the team's ability just enough that they fall short. Doesn't mean they are mentally weak or chokers or whatever, but I do think we need to adjust our expectations of what this team is capable of doing.

Part of it is that "skill" of closing out games/series has a higher degree of variability from year to year than we'd all like to admit. Take the Bucks for example: That 2020-2021 team pushed all of the right buttons and played tall when it mattered but they were sandwiched by teams that didn't even make the conference finals. Last year's Warriors team had a killer instinct yet this year's team can't get out of it's own way. Some teams just get hot at the right time but don't have the talent to drive them to a title (I'd bet that Miami falls into this category). This also goes to players themselves: James Harden couldn't do anything right for years in the playoffs and he's been the skeleton key in this series for the Sixers. Lebron famously had some unclutch playoff moments until he destroyed the Celtics in Game 6 2012. And on and on we go...

When in doubt, just put the best team on the floor that you can year-in, year-out and get them a coach who can win at the margins (like Spo, Kerr, etc...) to tip the close ones in your favor. CJM is clearly not that guy yet and you've got to start there for next year''s team.

 

[Auger34]

Tatum is weird, man. I don't know what to make of him. It felt like he played pretty poorly last night, and I know part of that is that the expectations for him are so, so high.

In the three games they've lost, Tatum has done this:

G1: 39 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 turnover
G4: 24 points, 18 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 blocks, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
G5: 36 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 2 steals, 2 turnovers

So an average of 33.0 points, 13.0 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.7 blocks, 1.3 steals, and just 1.7 turnovers (so a 3.1:1 Ast:TO ratio, which is excellent).

I mean, you look at that line and it's basically superhuman, MVP type stuff. But they've LOST all three of those games. And it just doesn't feel like he's playing that great.

So what's going on here? How do we explain all this?

G1: he was awesome. Unfortunately players not named the Jays were 3-17 from 3. Philly shot the lights out. Livd by the 3, die by the 3

G4: 9-20. Overall efficiency not bad. However, he was 1-6 from 3….and Al was 2-7 from 3.

G5: 11-27. Bad efficiency overall and he was 3-11 from 3.

In these games in the first quarter he’s been 3-14 in the first quarter (0-5 from 3). The bad starts have put the team in a hole that they’ve had to expend a lot of energy to fight out of.

 

[Strike4]

Would ANYONE here be shocked if the Celtics put together a great game tomorrow night and beat Philly? I sure wouldn't be. This team is weird.

I still wouldn't be shocked if they win the NBA Championship. BUT I also wouldn't be shocked if they lay an egg tomorrow in Philly.

(I think that's what's changed with expectations for this team - the floor is probably a bit lower than we are accustomed to.)

 

[Jimbodandy]

I think people have trouble objectively analyzing TimeLord. If he makes an earth-shattering block "the old Rob is back!!!" if someone slips by him for an easy bucket "TimeLord is dead and never coming back." He mainly looks the same to me, but certainly, a bit diminished. Maybe it's his health. Maybe he benefited by playing next to Al more in 2022. Maybe he looks bad because Brodgon is a sieve and Rob can't be relied on to clean up his messes at the rim for 20 minutes a night. Maybe it's a combination of many factors.

It sucks that the lob game has disappeared, which, imo, is mainly on the guards who have been tossing up comically poor pass attempts.

Rob has certainly gotten a few bad lob passes, but the old Rob slammed those home anyway. Guy isn't the same guy anymore. He's still long and has good instincts. He bothers shots. But the guy who could jump out of the building is gone and probably isn't coming back. Someone can start the "Is Rob Williams a bad contract now?" thread early.

That's not to hang the losses on Rob. But I don't think that it's hard to objectively analyze him at all. He's still TimeLord, just like 80% of him.

 

[Auger34]

Right. Your post doesn't contradict mine. I think JB is plenty good enough playing Pippen to Tatum's Jordan (no, neither JB nor JT are as good as Pippen or Jordan). I'm at a loss. Rookie/overmatched coach + aging Al, + defensively challenged Malcolm + diminishing Marcus = Not quite there?

In losses, Derrick White and Al Horford are a combined 16-46 (5-28 from 3). Brogdon also couldn’t defend a chair. Those are the 3 biggest things for me

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I feel like Tatum is on Tucker so he can be the guy that doubles, which is fine in theory but besides games 2 and 3 it's not really happening. Also, I'm starting to wonder if JB being tasked with sticking on Harden is wearing him out and sapping his effectiveness on the offensive end.

Al's cratering three-ball game and Brodgon's rough play on the defensive end are having some pretty devastating cascading effects.

The primary reason I'd imagine is to save Tatum on that end of the floor since he's going to have such a heavy offensive load for 40-44 minutes. We'll see what type of adjustments are made in G6. They were made well in G2 and winning a close out game against a desperate opponent is their toughest game of the year. Games like this are why we are fans.

 

[Auger34]

I still wouldn't be shocked if they win the NBA Championship. BUT I also wouldn't be shocked if they lay an egg tomorrow in Philly.

(I think that's what's changed with expectations for this team - the floor is probably a bit lower than we are accustomed to.)

I agree and I think this is where the coach comes in. I think I said this a couple of months ago.

A good coach can raise the floor of a team. I don’t think Joe raises the floor of this team…at all

 

[Mooch]

In losses, Derrick White and Al Horford are a combined 16-46 (5-28 from 3). Brogdon also couldn’t defend a chair. Those are the 3 biggest things for me

This is 100% where I'm at. It's more the supporting cast than the stars at this point. I'd strongly consider some PP and Hauser minutes to add some energy to the mix. Because those three guys look flat as a pancake right now.

 

[Mooch]

I agree and I think this is where the coach comes in. I think I said this a couple of months ago.

A good coach can raise the floor of a team. I don’t think Joe raises the floor of this team…at all

I don't know if it raises the floor but a good coach who can pivot in-game buys you some extra buckets/stops in key situations. Which would have made all the difference in two of our three losses. CJM is not that guy right now.

 

[moondog80]

Horford took 7 shots last night. All from three. He went 0-7.

He's not THE reason they lost, but he's a big reason they lost. They were all wide open looks and he bricked them all. This is a guy who, during the regular season, shot 44.6% from three. He had the second best three-point shooting percentage in the entire NBA (qualified players) this year. And he went 0-7.

In the two games they won, Horford shot 6-15 (40.0%) from three, though one was a 5-7 game and the other (the game the Celtics blew Philly out) he was 1-8.

In the three games they lost, Horford shot 3-18 (16.7%) from three, and his best shooting game of the bunch was a 2-7 performance (28.6%) in game 4.

If he's going to be in the game, Embiid has to respect Horford's three point shooting, or else he'll just stay in the paint and protect the rim. When Horford shoots like he has been, Embiid doesn't have to go out on him. So not only do the Celtics lose Horford's threes, they also lose points in the paint as Embiid stays there to block shots.

The Celtics don't need Horford to put up 25 points a game. They DO, however, need him to hit the open shots he has, which will not only score them points, it will open up the paint for others to score inside.

I get it, but Al shot 44.6% this year on over 5 attempts per game. And that included 52% in 13 games in March, so it's not like he wore down as the series went on. I know "small sample size" seems trite, but if they are going to leave Al wide open, I want him to keep shooting.

 

[Auger34]

I don't know if it raises the floor but a good coach who can pivot in-game buys you some extra buckets/stops in key situations. Which would have made all the difference in two of our three losses. CJM is not that guy right now.

Fair point and you probably phrased what I meant a lot better than I did.

If the original game plan is solid and the 3’s are falling then CJM doesn’t really matter…if adjustments need to be made in-game, I have 0 faith that CJM can get that done.

 

[BaseballJones]

When looking at the supporting cast, it sure feels like (I know I'm using that phrase a lot and I apologize...feelings aren't facts but still...I think you all get what I mean) Philly's supporting cast has been better than Boston's.

I don't think the stats back that up though.