Celtics 'Vigilant' on Anthony Davis

Manzivino

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Milford, Ma
The Celtics are a top 5 team in the league with a top 25 player on the shelf and an expected top 5 pick in one of the next two drafts. Why would they trade their 2nd and 4th best active players, plus all but one of their future assets, before they know how good they can be with Hayward healthy? Plus trading Brown and Horford for Davis absolutely does not increase their odds this season, they don’t have the wing depth to adequately replace Brown.

NO is a playoff team right now. Trading Davis would guarantee that Cousins leaves in the off-season and plummet them into the cellar. Noel has no trade value, there’s no guarantee the Lakers pick conveys, a decent chance the Dallas pick would roll over for a few years depending on the protections, and a possibility the Clippers pick becomes two second rounders if the Clippers miss the playoffs the next two years. Their fan base would revolt, probably violently, and rightfully so.

Dallas is going to intentionally bottom out as soon as Dirk retires, presumably this summer. They have no desire or use for Al Horford, who will likely be retired by the time they’re done rebuilding.

Honestly, I’m not sure which team refuses this deal first.
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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The Celtics are a top 5 team in the league with a top 25 player on the shelf and an expected top 5 pick in one of the next two drafts. Why would they trade their 2nd and 4th best active players, plus all but one of their future assets, before they know how good they can be with Hayward healthy? Plus trading Brown and Horford for Davis absolutely does not increase their odds this season, they don’t have the wing depth to adequately replace Brown.

NO is a playoff team right now. Trading Davis would guarantee that Cousins leaves in the off-season and plummet them into the cellar. Noel has no trade value, there’s no guarantee the Lakers pick conveys, a decent chance the Dallas pick would roll over for a few years depending on the protections, and a possibility the Clippers pick becomes two second rounders if the Clippers miss the playoffs the next two years. Their fan base would revolt, probably violently, and rightfully so.

Dallas is going to intentionally bottom out as soon as Dirk retires, presumably this summer. They have no desire or use for Al Horford, who will likely be retired by the time they’re done rebuilding.

Honestly, I’m not sure which team refuses this deal first.
To me, much of this is wrong — other than the Pels likely turning it down (less because of package, more because they’re really unlikely to decide to trade Davis... yet).

A) Celts ~~ depth doesn’t win Championships in the NBA, stars do.

Consolidating good players / assets for a great one is what Ainge lives for. It’s what they did to get Allen. It’s what they did to get Garnett. It’s what they did to get Kyrie. Ainge would presumably would be VERY happy to do it again for an even more dominant player in Davis.

The majority of Cs fans believed we shouldn’t trade Al Jefferson for KG. Sound right? Yet Davis is far younger than KG, and Horford’s on the Back 9. Don’t let allegiance cloud your objectivity.

As for the comment about waiting for Hayward to be healthy, it’s fan nonsense. Hayward success is not contingent on Horford or Brown. Ainge will make deals that are worth doing when they’re available, not when Hayward feels better.

B) Pels ~~ You call the Lakers Pick a “top 5 Pick in on of the next two drafts”, then look too degrade it soon thereafter. It’s an excellent asset. And I think you’re wrong about Cousins. Look at the few teams with cap space, then tell me who is giving him the $$$ he wants (Hint: nobody). He’s just as likely
To resign if Davis is gone.

While we’re on the Pels, I understand Noel’s value — he’s a salary fill in this deal.

BUT, he’s a talent young player who needs a legit rotation spot. And if he’s well liked by NO when he gets there? Market for the guy will always be limited... he could be a low cost resign on a young team. Point is: he’s a lot more interesting filler than most guys, which is why they’d prefer him to McBuckets.

C) Mavs ~~ based on your comments, I don’t think you really get Cuban. Or Rick Carlisle. I believe they’d think long and hard about giving up a pick between 7-12 in this or next year’s draft for a locked in Horford.

================

Summary: NOP won’t trade Davis until this summer at the absolute earliest — if ever — anyway... which makes this blog fodder. But I submit this is a trade that might benefit all 3 teams. Remember this Cs would still have the DPE to use, and Morris to trade (can’t wait), this deals.
 

scottyno

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With a potential upcoming free agent class of Durant, James, Paul, George, Cousins, and Jordan the Mavs are going to give up a lotto pick in a stacked draft and the chance to offer ufas a max slot for the right to still be bad with Horford for either 1 or 2 years until he leaves?

Sure they might be low on the list to actually get those guys, but tying up their cap space and giving up a top pick to do so makes no sense.
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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With a potential upcoming free agent class of Durant, James, Paul, George, Cousins, and Jordan the Mavs are going to give up a lotto pick in a stacked draft and the chance to offer ufas a max slot for the right to still be bad with Horford for either 1 or 2 years until he leaves?

Sure they might be low on the list to actually get those guys, but tying up their cap space and giving up a top pick to do so makes no sense.
Cuban’s too smart to sign Cousins. None of the others are signing there. If they add Horford (and keep Dirk), they’d still have $20mil in cap space to sign Jordan if they want to — which should be plenty in the 2018 market. Or Randle. Or Smart. Or Lou Williams. Or Greg Monroe. Etc etc.

Meanwhile — they gave up a mid-first WITH Crowder and Wright for Rondo (expiring). Stranger things have happened...
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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Don’t mean to get caught up in the minutia of this trade idea. New to the board, so interested in the appetite for Davis here.

Not surprisingly, responses seem to suggest folks don’t want to give up our stuff of any value to get him.
 

scottyno

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Cuban’s too smart to sign Cousins. None of the others are signing there. If they add Horford (and keep Dirk), they’d still have $20mil in cap space to sign Jordan if they want to — which should be plenty in the 2018 market. Or Randle. Or Smart. Or Lou Williams. Or Greg Monroe. Etc etc.

Meanwhile — they gave up a mid-first WITH Crowder and Wright for Rondo (expiring). Stranger things have happened...
They added Rondo to a team that was a contender, at least in theory anyway. That team won 50 games in a stacked conference. This current Mavs team is on pace to win about 30 and nowhere near the playoffs, no way they're giving up a lotto pick so they can assemble a team that might win 40 games instead of 30.
 

Caspir

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Good point. Horford and Jordan are like a spitting image of each other on the floor.
That's not what he asked, and you responded defensively because you realized how silly that post was. Wanna give it another shot?

Which 20+ million dollar center is the bench guy in your scenario? Or does Dallas just throw Dirk into the 3 spot, Al at the 4 and Jordan at the 5 because real life is just like 2k?
 

BigSoxFan

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That's not what he asked, and you responded defensively because you realized how silly that post was. Wanna give it another shot?

Which 20+ million dollar center is the bench guy in your scenario? Or does Dallas just throw Dirk into the 3 spot, Al at the 4 and Jordan at the 5 because real life is just like 2k?
Do we even know if Dirk is going to play next year. He signed a 2 year deal with a club option for next year. I think it’s far from a given that he even plays next year.
 

joe dokes

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The majority of Cs fans believed we shouldn’t trade Al Jefferson for KG. Sound right?
It does not sound right. Edumacate me.

Mavs ~~ based on your comments, I don’t think you really get Cuban. Or Rick Carlisle. I believe they’d think long and hard about giving up a pick between 7-12 in this or next year’s draft for a locked in Horford.
I think their thinking would be short and flaccid.
Not a chance they do that for "on-the-back-9" Horford.
 
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ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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That's not what he asked, and you responded defensively because you realized how silly that post was. Wanna give it another shot?

Which 20+ million dollar center is the bench guy in your scenario? Or does Dallas just throw Dirk into the 3 spot, Al at the 4 and Jordan at the 5 because real life is just like 2k?
Not really. I was dismissive due to the lack of a relevant point considering:

1) Jordan is not signing with the Mavericks. HE RENEGED ON THEM LESS THAN THREE YEARS AGO TO CRAWL BACK TO THE CLIPPERS.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13247673/how-deandre-jordan-almost-left-los-angeles-clippers

2) I listed a series of FAs they could sign to make the point, not because they’ve shown interest in Jordan.

So hijacking an Anthony Davis thread over this topic seems a little... dumb.

But, I’ll go there anyway if you want to understand why a Horford / Jordan pairing would be just fine. Cuz hey.. this stuff is pointless anyway!

••••••••••••••••••••••

Horford has started most games at PF this year. He’s largely a perimeter player who distributes from the high post and shoots 3s. The guy who has started next to him at C this season is having a career year.

Jordan lives in the paint. He can’t shoot past 4-5 feet from the rim. He thrives on putbacks and dunks. He’s a defender and rebounder who has lived off lobs from Chris Paul for years.

Horford averages more APG than any Mavs starter. Jordan would see better — not worse — output next to Horford. Ask Aron Baynes.

And the Mavs just drafted a shoot first PG who has (too) quickly been anointed their future. He too would see better spacing by playing with Al Horford. Ask Ky Irving how he likes it.

So if after trading for Horford the Mavs signed Jordan — which will never happen — they’ll be fine. Ask Blake Griffin.

But thanks for the glib reply.
 

the moops

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It's not even necesarily about the fit. Although as Horford ages, he is for sure going to have to play most, if not all of his minutes at center. It is more abiout the money. Al Horford is going to make 29 million dollars next year. DeAndre Jordan will sign for a similar amount. A starting lineup of Jordan, Horford, Matthews, Barnes and Smith Jr woud make a combined 100 million dollars. And that team is pretty mediocre. Oh and they have to give up a pick too?
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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It's not even necesarily about the fit. Although as Horford ages, he is for sure going to have to play most, if not all of his minutes at center. It is more abiout the money. Al Horford is going to make 29 million dollars next year. DeAndre Jordan will sign for a similar amount. A starting lineup of Jordan, Horford, Matthews, Barnes and Smith Jr woud make a combined 100 million dollars. And that team is pretty mediocre. Oh and they have to give up a pick too?
Again, this debate is the stuff of dunces when you factor Jordan’s history with the Mavs. See above.
 

Manzivino

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To me, much of this is wrong — other than the Pels likely turning it down (less because of package, more because they’re really unlikely to decide to trade Davis... yet).
This is going to be long but I'm going to take this point by point.

A) Celts ~~ depth doesn’t win Championships in the NBA, stars do.

Consolidating good players / assets for a great one is what Ainge lives for. It’s what they did to get Allen. It’s what they did to get Garnett. It’s what they did to get Kyrie. Ainge would presumably would be VERY happy to do it again for an even more dominant player in Davis.
In saying Davis improves their chances this year you are vastly overestimating the upgrade from Davis to Horford and underestimating the downgrade from Brown to whoever would take his minutes, even disregarding the impact on team chemistry and the difficulty of integrating a new player on the fly midseason. Also not sure why you think Kyrie/Davis/Tatum has a better chance of knocking off the Warriors this year than Kyrie/Horford/Tatum/Brown; both are extreme longshots.

The majority of Cs fans believed we shouldn’t trade Al Jefferson for KG. Sound right? Yet Davis is far younger than KG, and Horford’s on the Back 9. Don’t let allegiance cloud your objectivity.
The number of Cs fans that thought Al Jefferson shouldn't be traded for KG is much closer to 0 than a majority.

As for the comment about waiting for Hayward to be healthy, it’s fan nonsense. Hayward success is not contingent on Horford or Brown. Ainge will make deals that are worth doing when they’re available, not when Hayward feels better.
The point is not that Hayward's success is contingent on Horford or Brown, the point is that the Cs are on the verge of putting together a dominant team just by standing pat. They have a reasonable chance of entering the playoffs as Eastern Conference favorites without Hayward, and will almost certainly enter next season as prohibitive favorites to reach the Finals. You want them to use all of their valuable future draft capital outside of the Memphis pick, plus Jaylen Brown, for the marginal upgrade from Horford to Davis, plus think a rebuilding team is going to trade a lottery pick for Horford. I think you need to reexamine what nonsense means. It is shortsighted to use the vast majority of your tradeable assets to marginally upgrade a roster that in all likelihood will already be good enough to challenge for a title soon.

B) Pels ~~ You call the Lakers Pick a “top 5 Pick in on of the next two drafts”, then look too degrade it soon thereafter. It’s an excellent asset.
It is an excellent asset, which comes with a real downside risk of turning into Philly's 2019 first rounder. The Celtics are fine accepting that downside because of their situation. The Pelicans would never take on that risk as one of the centerpieces in the return for Davis, especially with the trade market set by the returns for one year of Butler and George. It's not the upside of the asset that the Pelicans would object to, it's the uncertainty involved. This applies to the proposed Mavs pick as well.

And I think you’re wrong about Cousins. Look at the few teams with cap space, then tell me who is giving him the $$$ he wants (Hint: nobody). He’s just as likely
To resign if Davis is gone.
I think there's a good chance he ends up on the Lakers, especially if they strike out on LeBron/George and need to make a splash.

While we’re on the Pels, I understand Noel’s value — he’s a salary fill in this deal.

BUT, he’s a talent young player who needs a legit rotation spot. And if he’s well liked by NO when he gets there? Market for the guy will always be limited... he could be a low cost resign on a young team. Point is: he’s a lot more interesting filler than most guys, which is why they’d prefer him to McBuckets.
He also has a no trade, which probably wouldn't be an issue given his situation in Dallas, but he may prefer to push for a deal to a team without a star that plays his position. Plus he doesn't come with Bird Rights, so if he does well the Pelicans can't afford him to keep him and if he does poorly they don't want him.

C) Mavs ~~ based on your comments, I don’t think you really get Cuban. Or Rick Carlisle. I believe they’d think long and hard about giving up a pick between 7-12 in this or next year’s draft for a locked in Horford.
Based on your comments I think there's a long list of things you don't really get. Horford is locked in for next season only, the Mavs aren't giving up any pick in this year's stacked draft for him while they're rebuilding and New Orleans isn't going to accept a pick that might not convey for 3 years.

================

Summary: NOP won’t trade Davis until this summer at the absolute earliest — if ever — anyway... which makes this blog fodder. But I submit this is a trade that might benefit all 3 teams. Remember this Cs would still have the DPE to use, and Morris to trade (can’t wait), this deals.
The bolded is likely the only thing correct in your post. You want New Orleans to trade one of the most valuable players in the game for Jaylen Brown, a potential non-lottery pick in 2019 (LA/SAC/PHI), a Mavs pick potentially 3 years in the future (depending on the protections) and a non-lottery pick in 2019 or 2020. There is no chance that would be the best offer on the table if Davis were on the auction block.

The whole proposal revolves around Dallas being interested in giving up their own first rounder anytime in the next few years to at most have Horford through next season when they have no chance of being good, after which he'd decline his player option and go to a contender. This is also not realistic.

You want Boston to empty the war chest (minus Tatum and the Memphis pick) for Davis when they have no immediate need to do so and have the luxury of being patient to determine if they already have a title contender as is. Would I rather have Davis over Horford for the next 5-6 years? Absolutely. Is the difference, especially in the short term, worth the opportunity cost of trading almost all of their trade assets to make it happen? Absolutely not.
 

HomeRunBaker

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For Anthony Davis? Why? Do You actually buy that if NOP would do this deal, Ainge would say: “I’m never trading Horford in-season. Ever”.
While I had no doubt that Ainge would include Horford in a Brow deal......he isn't going to end up in New Orleans or Dallas in rebuilding situations. Anthony Davis is an offseason type of acquisition but if the deal is going to include Horford you'll have to locate a 3rd team who is at least at the fringe of contending so they aren't in a youth rebuilding phase.

The majority of Cs fans believed we shouldn’t trade Al Jefferson for KG. Sound right? Yet Davis is far younger than KG, and Horford’s on the Back 9. Don’t let allegiance cloud your objectivity.
I don't know if you were around here at the time of the KG trade but it was nearly unanimously IN FAVOR of the deal at the time. There were some who didn't want to let The Big Lazy go but my recollection even of most of those types were that they do the deal for KG in a heartbeat.
 

Manzivino

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Just one point to add. I think you are severely underestimating the upgrade from Horford to Davis.
For this season, every advanced metric available that takes defense into account disagrees that the upgrade is all that large.

Net rating per 100: Davis +17, Horford +16
RPM: Davis 4.43, Horford 3.89.
Win Shares: Davis 5.7, Horford 5.0.
BPM: Horford 5.2, Davis 4.6
TPA: Horford 127.94, Davis 108.46 (and it's not just a function of Horford playing more games, he leads in TPA/min as well).

Again, I would rather have Davis moving forward than Horford but the gap for this season isn't that large. People underrate how much Horford's passing makes up the gap offensively and how much better he is defensively.
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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quick follow up on the Al Jefferson trade point....

Days before the Garnett trade was completed, Boston.com ran a survey asking whether fans favored the deal if Jefferson was to be included. More than 60% of respondents said they'd prefer to turn it down if Big Al went to Minny. Unfortunately, I can't recall the exact figure, and the link to that survey no longer works.

I'm not defending it, rather pointing out that fans often fall in love with their own players or assets, and indeed their "potential".... homerism, in other words. It exists in every sports, and every city.

As for the Cs, I happen to love Ainge's aggressive, icy cold approach, but it ain't for everyone.

=======================

Lastly, I agree with whoever said: a) the Cs wouldn't win the title THIS year even if they acquired Davis, and b) NOP isn't trading him mid-season (in any season).
 

nighthob

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There is no scenario where the Pelicans trade Davis now, and really no convenient way for Boston to get him now anyway. After the 2020 season when Jaylen Brown’s extension kicks in, presuming he stays on this path, then Boston has a road to Davis.

But, no, the Pelicans aren’t trading Davis for a bunch of centers and Dallas isn’t trading a lottery pick in a stacked draft for one year of a 31 year old center.
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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There is no scenario where the Pelicans trade Davis now, and really no convenient way for Boston to get him now anyway. After the 2020 season when Jaylen Brown’s extension kicks in, presuming he stays on this path, then Boston has a road to Davis.

But, no, the Pelicans aren’t trading Davis for a bunch of centers and Dallas isn’t trading a lottery pick in a stacked draft for one year of a 31 year old center.
2020? Say wha?
 

nighthob

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Brown is a second year player, when his extension kicks in, the financial mechanics of a Davis trade become easy. Because then the salary ballast is also a centerpiece of the trade (again, assuming that Brown makes another big leap in year three and begins reaching a Jimmy Butler level of play), and Boston will would still have prospects and picks to fill in around him.

Davis is on a long term deal, which is why the Pelicans aren’t going to deal him any time soon. They have time to build something around him.
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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Brown is a second year player, when his extension kicks in, the financial mechanics of a Davis trade become easy. Because then the salary ballast is also a centerpiece of the trade (again, assuming that Brown makes another big leap in year three and begins reaching a Jimmy Butler level of play), and Boston will would still have prospects and picks to fill in around him.

Davis is on a long term deal, which is why the Pelicans aren’t going to deal him any time soon. They have time to build something around him.
Davis’ contract expires in 2020.
 

DrewDawg

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Davis’ contract expires in 2020.
2021.

YEAR AGE BASE SALARY CAP HIT DEAD CAP
2016-17
22 $22,116,750 $22,116,750 $127,171,313
2017-18
23 $23,775,506 $23,775,506 $105,054,563
2018-19
24 $25,434,263 $25,434,263 $81,279,057
2019-20
25 $27,093,019 $27,093,019 $55,844,794
2020-21
26 $28,751,775 $28,751,775 $28,751,775
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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2021.

YEAR AGE BASE SALARY CAP HIT DEAD CAP
2016-17
22 $22,116,750 $22,116,750 $127,171,313
2017-18
23 $23,775,506 $23,775,506 $105,054,563
2018-19
24 $25,434,263 $25,434,263 $81,279,057
2019-20
25 $27,093,019 $27,093,019 $55,844,794
2020-21
26 $28,751,775 $28,751,775 $28,751,775
Ugh — No. 2020.

He has a player option for 2021. You think Anthony Davis is gonna need to exercise his PO when he’s 27 in lieu of a long term deal wherever he wants at higher dollars? Let’s try to be serious.

The point is moot. The Cs aren’t waiting until Jaylen Brown is off his rookie contract to try to acquire Anthony Davis, or anyone else. No GM in sports says to his owner:

“Hey boss — I’ve got it! We’ll trade for ________ in 2.5 years when he’s a Free Agent!!”
 

DrewDawg

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My bad. Site I was on didn't note that.

Still not as bad a mistake as assuming the Mavs want Horford though. ;)
 

the moops

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Ugh — No. 2020.

He has a player option for 2021. You think Anthony Davis is gonna need to exercise his PO when he’s 27 in lieu of a long term deal wherever he wants at higher dollars? Let’s try to be serious.

The point is moot. The Cs aren’t waiting until Jaylen Brown is off his rookie contract to try to acquire Anthony Davis, or anyone else. No GM in sports says to his owner:

“Hey boss — I’ve got it! We’ll trade for ________ in 2.5 years when he’s a Free Agent!!”
I think the point was they would need Jaylen's incresed salary to trade, for he is someone that would interest a team like NO
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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I think the point was they would need Jaylen's incresed salary to trade, for he is someone that would interest a team like NO
I get it. But the Cs have all they need to trade if Davis were to become available at any time.

By the way, the notion that Horford is untouchable is silly. Ainge would trade him 7 Days a week and twice on Sunday if meant landing Davis. They’d make a nice tribute video for Al when he came back on whatever team we sent him too.
 

Manzivino

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I get it. But the Cs have all they need to trade if Davis were to become available at any time.

By the way, the notion that Horford is untouchable is silly. Ainge would trade him 7 Days a week and twice on Sunday if meant landing Davis. They’d make a nice tribute video for Al when he came back on whatever team we sent him too.
If they could trade Horford straight up for Davis, they would absolutely do it. Congratulations on refuting that point that nobody made.
 

nighthob

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Ugh — No. 2020.

He has a player option for 2021. You think Anthony Davis is gonna need to exercise his PO when he’s 27 in lieu of a long term deal wherever he wants at higher dollars? Let’s try to be serious.
It doesn’t matter that Davis would be opting out for more money, what matters is that Boston have a tradable prime asset that doubles as salary ballast. They don’t have that at the moment, but in the summer that Davis goes on the market they would.

Marcus Smart would be a BYC player in any sign & trade this summer, and isn’t a prime asset. This vastly complicates matters, which is why you’ve been screaming like a five year old that’s had a lollipop pulled out of his mouth whenever anyone tells you that your trade scenario is nonsense. Dallas isn’t trading away a top ten pick for a rent-a-center and Ainge wouldn’t damage an agent relationship by trading Horford to a rebuilding team.

Would it be great if Boston could trade for Davis today? Sure, but the moving parts aren’t there to make it work today.

You may want to have a look back at the Garnett trade that you’ve been lecturing us all about. Here on this board we began discussing the deal in 2006, because most of us could see the collapse in Minnesota and know that a KG deal was inevitable. Per Ainge they began working towards the deal in 2005.

The reason they’re being vigilant now isn’t because Davis is on the market, because he isn’t. It’s because he will be and they want to be ready to make a run at him when the time comes.
 

ishmael

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quick follow up on the Al Jefferson trade point....

Days before the Garnett trade was completed, Boston.com ran a survey asking whether fans favored the deal if Jefferson was to be included. More than 60% of respondents said they'd prefer to turn it down if Big Al went to Minny. Unfortunately, I can't recall the exact figure, and the link to that survey no longer works.

I'm not defending it, rather pointing out that fans often fall in love with their own players or assets, and indeed their "potential".... homerism, in other words. It exists in every sports, and every city.
Everyone hates on McHale for the KG trade now, but at the time Al Jefferson was just entering his peak offensively (and still had room to grow defensively). His 2009 injury (and the fact that Kahn picked Johnny Flynn over Steph Curry) makes the trade look way more lopsided in retrospect...
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
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It doesn’t matter that Davis would be opting out for more money, what matters is that Boston have a tradable prime asset that doubles as salary ballast. They don’t have that at the moment, but in the summer that Davis goes on the market they would.

Marcus Smart would be a BYC player in any sign & trade this summer, and isn’t a prime asset. This vastly complicates matters, which is why you’ve been screaming like a five year old that’s had a lollipop pulled out of his mouth whenever anyone tells you that your trade scenario is nonsense. Dallas isn’t trading away a top ten pick for a rent-a-center and Ainge wouldn’t damage an agent relationship by trading Horford to a rebuilding team.

Would it be great if Boston could trade for Davis today? Sure, but the moving parts aren’t there to make it work today.

You may want to have a look back at the Garnett trade that you’ve been lecturing us all about. Here on this board we began discussing the deal in 2006, because most of us could see the collapse in Minnesota and know that a KG deal was inevitable. Per Ainge they began working towards the deal in 2005.

The reason they’re being vigilant now isn’t because Davis is on the market, because he isn’t. It’s because he will be and they want to be ready to make a run at him when the time comes.
Ohhhh I see. The pejorative type. “This is my blog” kinda thing. Well, age and repetition won’t make you knowledgeable, old boy.

I haven’t said a word about Smart, BYC or not — that’s ur problem. But I’ll give you a shot at wiping the egg off your face:

Let’s say Davis asks to be traded this summer ala Ky Irving last year....

Are you suggesting that the Cs would make Horford untouchable in a deal to acquire him? Or that they would unless they could send him to a Top 5 team (who they would be competing with as soon as they did) because Ainge worries Bill Duffy would be mad at him?

What’s more, are you saying that the Celtics COULDN’T trade for Davis until the summer of 2020 because of this? When he’s a UFA? When the Cs only have $34MM in salary currently committed (hey... they could just SIGN HIM!!) ?

I feel obligated to point out that Horford is not now, nor will he be this summer, a rental. He has two full seasons on his contract after this season, because unlike Davis — he will exercise the PO on the last year of his contract.
 

ssspence

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Jan 3, 2018
44
Everyone hates on McHale for the KG trade now, but at the time Al Jefferson was just entering his peak offensively (and still had room to grow defensively). His 2009 injury (and the fact that Kahn picked Johnny Flynn over Steph Curry) makes the trade look way more lopsided in retrospect...
Agreed. It was the right deal to make at the time for the Cs — for the same reasons they’d part with some assets that would be very, very hard to let go of to get Davis if they have to — but i always felt McH took too much grief for the deal. I find it hard to believe there were truly better offers on the table.
 

nighthob

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SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,904
Ohhhh I see. The pejorative type. “This is my blog” kinda thing. Well, age and repetition won’t make you knowledgeable, old boy.
This isn’t blog and it doesn’t belong to me. Everyone here has tried to politely point out to you why your fantasy is silly and isn’t happening.

I haven’t said a word about Smart, BYC or not — that’s ur problem. But I’ll give you a shot at wiping the egg off your face
Who cares? The issue is the salaries to make a trade work. Boston doesn’t have a lot of options on that front at the moment.

Let’s say Davis asks to be traded this summer ala Ky Irving last year.
You do understand that Irving requested a trade after Cleveland started the process of trying to trade him, yes? He didn’t force his way out so much as the Cavs looking to reconfigure the team from the outset, hence their efforts to turn Irving into Bledsoe/#4 and use #4 as the basis for a Paul George deal.

Are you suggesting that the Cs would make Horford untouchable in a deal to acquire him? Or that they would unless they could send him to a Top 5 team (who they would be competing with as soon as they did) because Ainge worries Bill Duffy would be mad at him?
No, I’m saying that after selling Horford on coming to Boston to compete for NBA titles they wouldn’t trade him to a rebuilding team going nowhere. I think I was very clear on that.

What’s more, are you saying that the Celtics COULDN’T trade for Davis until the summer of 2020 because of this? When he’s a UFA? When the Cs only have $34MM in salary currently committed (hey... they could just SIGN HIM!!) ?
Again, I’ve been pretty clear, the Pelicans are in no hurry to get rid of Davis, and would have no interest in trading him for another center. They have time to put a team around him. Now, in the summer of 2019 they may decide that he’s going to leave and then start looking around for a trade partner, and Boston, if they’d extended Rozier, would have the matching salaries, picks, and prospects to make a real run at him.

But you know what Boston won’t do? Renounce Irving and Horford in order to sign Davis. That’s just stupid when the sign & trade works out so much better for them. Because the idea is to add Davis to Irving, Hayward, and Horford.

I feel obligated to point out that Horford is not now, nor will he be this summer, a rental. He has two full seasons on his contract after this season, because unlike Davis — he will exercise the PO on the last year of his contract.
He would certainly be a rental because I’ll guarantee you that he won’t waste a productive year playing for a bottom-dweller when he can go elsewhere and play for a title.
 

ssspence

lurker
Jan 3, 2018
44
This isn’t blog and it doesn’t belong to me. Everyone here has tried to politely point out to you why your fantasy is silly and isn’t happening.



Who cares? The issue is the salaries to make a trade work. Boston doesn’t have a lot of options on that front at the moment.



You do understand that Irving requested a trade after Cleveland started the process of trying to trade him, yes? He didn’t force his way out so much as the Cavs looking to reconfigure the team from the outset, hence their efforts to turn Irving into Bledsoe/#4 and use #4 as the basis for a Paul George deal.



No, I’m saying that after selling Horford on coming to Boston to compete for NBA titles they wouldn’t trade him to a rebuilding team going nowhere. I think I was very clear on that.



Again, I’ve been pretty clear, the Pelicans are in no hurry to get rid of Davis, and would have no interest in trading him for another center. They have time to put a team around him. Now, in the summer of 2019 they may decide that he’s going to leave and then start looking around for a trade partner, and Boston, if they’d extended Rozier, would have the matching salaries, picks, and prospects to make a real run at him.

But you know what Boston won’t do? Renounce Irving and Horford in order to sign Davis. That’s just stupid when the sign & trade works out so much better for them. Because the idea is to add Davis to Irving, Hayward, and Horford.



He would certainly be a rental because I’ll guarantee you that he won’t waste a productive year playing for a bottom-dweller when he can go elsewhere and play for a title.
The Cs wouldn’t walk from Horford in 2020 to sign Davis as a free agent? For nothing? You’ve got no credibility to me. But congrats on all your years here!
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
7,904
I don’t really need affirmation from a guy spouting video game trade ideas. And to sign Davis as a free agent means walking away from everyone, not just Horford. There’s a benefit to working above the cap, and since Boston may already have another title by then, I doubt they go the burn it to the ground route for Davis.
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
32,463
The Cs wouldn’t walk from Horford in 2020 to sign Davis as a free agent? For nothing? You’ve got no credibility to me. But congrats on all your years here!
Nighthob and others have politely told you why your proposal is nonsensical. We all make crap posts. Just own it and move on. People here, especially the hoops diehards here, know their stuff.
 

ssspence

lurker
Jan 3, 2018
44
I don’t really need affirmation from a guy spouting video game trade ideas. And to sign Davis as a free agent means walking away from everyone, not just Horford. There’s a benefit to working above the cap, and since Boston may already have another title by then, I doubt they go the burn it to the ground route for Davis.
Here’s a video game trade for ya:

If you polled 30 NBA GMs (including Ainge) whether they’d trade Horford, Brown and the Lakers Pick to get Davis, ALL of them would say yes. Actually maybe not all — Rich Cho and Vlade Divac are morons and would probably say no. But any GM worth his salt, knowing what’s else the Cs currently have, would make that deal for Boston. And hiding behind whether that means Horford goes to NO, Dallas, or somewhere else won’t change that.

So instead of predicting the FA and team cap structures of 2020, deal with that fact — and realize this whole dim discussion about trading two FREE AGENTS for each other three seasons from now has been a total waste of both your and my time. Peace out.
 
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nighthob

Member
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Jul 15, 2005
7,904
Here’s a video game trade for ya:

If you polled 30 NBA GMs (including Ainge) whether they’d trade Horford, Brown and the Lakers Pick to get Davis, ALL of them would say yes. Actually maybe not all — Rich Cho and Vlade Divac are morons and would probably say no. But any GM worth his salt, knowing what’s else the Cs currently have, would make that deal for Boston. And hiding behind whether that means Horford goes to NO, Dallas, or somewhere else won’t change that.

So instead of predicting the FA and team cap structures of 2020, deal with that fact — and realize this whole dim discussion about trading two FREE AGENTS for each other three seasons from now has been a total waste of both your and my time. Peace out.
The problem is that if the Pelicans are trading Davis, it’s because they’re blowing their team up. Which isn’t going to happen today. And probably not this summer, either. And if they’re blowing it up, they’re not going to have a lot of interest in Horford, as several people have pointed out to you.

And you keep yelling “What idiot waits two years to make a deal!!!” We know the answer to that, Ainge. Who by his own admission began preparing for a Garnett trade nearly three years before he was able to complete it.
 

ssspence

lurker
Jan 3, 2018
44
The problem is that if the Pelicans are trading Davis, it’s because they’re blowing their team up. Which isn’t going to happen today. And probably not this summer, either. And if they’re blowing it up, they’re not going to have a lot of interest in Horford, as several people have pointed out to you.

And you keep yelling “What idiot waits two years to make a deal!!!” We know the answer to that, Ainge. Who by his own admission began preparing for a Garnett trade nearly three years before he was able to complete it.
Was Garnett a Free Agent when they traded for him? No.

Ainge is waiting? No. He’s actively channeling now — even Davis admits it. Will he be ready today, tomorrow, this summer,
next year, summer of 2019, deadline 2020, And everyday in between to trade for Davis if it takes that long? Sure. But he’s not waiting.

You’ve got a bee in your bonnet about Dallas. Fine. I happen to think Cuban, as has always been the case, will not have the patience to truly rebuild. They’ll loom to max cap space this summer and bring in whatever vets they can around their current crew plus whoever they draft. They’ll hover around the 8th spot out west in 18-19.

In other words, they may tank at the end of this season, but not long term.

Maybe you don’t. Great. That’s missing the point. Horford could be sent a variety of places (including Dallas) for less that a late lottery pick — particularly in the off-season — if it meant yielding the right structure to a Davis trade.

What I called you out for was the idea of waiting until Brown could be paid more to make him not just a player but salary filler 2+ years for now in a deal for a dude who will be a UFA. Be serious.

You called my idea video game? Ok. I caveated the fact that it was super unlikely,
and it was more about moving Al to a third team. Cool — so be it.

Yours is just nonsense. Admit it. Doesn’t mean Ainge hasn’t wanted Davis for years and kept picks and players in mind accordingly. Same is probably true for Klay Thompson (watch that space). Stay prepared... sure.

But you’re summer 2020 re-signed Brown for Davis idea is literally never happening. Stay defensive all you want, but it’s basically inconceivable.

We all make mistakes, guy.
 
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ssspence

lurker
Jan 3, 2018
44
You've yet to overcome the "Why Dallas (or NO) would want Horford" issue, but keep on keeping on.
Oh I can think of lots of reasons why Dallas would want Horford. You can’t? He’s pretty good. their frontcourt could use the help, and Rick Carlisle likes winning games. So does Mark Cuban. He likes sellouts too.

Maybe they won’t give up a pick for him, depending on where it lands. But a lot stranger things have happened than Dallas wanting Horford.

What are you bringing to the table, Dawg? Just kinda trolling I guess?
 

Montana Fan

Well-Known Member
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Oct 18, 2000
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Twin Bridges, Mt.
Ssspence, take a minute and a breath. Nighthob makes a rational and concise Post and you respond with a post that could only be made by a very stable genius. Call it a day and give the internet and SoSHers a break.
 

nighthob

Member
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Jul 15, 2005
7,904
Has this board been around since 1991? If it was I wasn’t around then. I do go back to the EZ-Board days, though.

Also, for someone presenting yourself as an expert on the Garnett trade, you don’t seem to know a lot about it. (Hint, the reason it didn’t go through the first time is that Garnett was a pending free agent that refused to sign an extension with Boston.)

The only defensive person around here is you because your video game fantasy trade just isn’t realistic. And your screaming “Every GM but Divac would make that deal!!!” doesn’t change the fact that in the real world a trade requires the agreement of multiple parties. Would every GM polled trade Kris Dunn, filler, and a lottery pick for Durant? Every GM except the one that mattered.

Lastly while we very often discuss the overall parameters that a Davis trade will take, we don’t bother getting attached to these idiotic NBA 2Kx deals, because in the real world those deals never happen and there’s no sense in getting caught up them.
 

ssspence

lurker
Jan 3, 2018
44
Has this board been around since 1991? If it was I wasn’t around then. I do go back to the EZ-Board days, though.

Also, for someone presenting yourself as an expert on the Garnett trade, you don’t seem to know a lot about it. (Hint, the reason it didn’t go through the first time is that Garnett was a pending free agent that refused to sign an extension with Boston.)

The only defensive person around here is you because your video game fantasy trade just isn’t realistic. And your screaming “Every GM but Divac would make that deal!!!” doesn’t change the fact that in the real world a trade requires the agreement of multiple parties. Would every GM polled trade Kris Dunn, filler, and a lottery pick for Durant? Every GM except the one that mattered.

Lastly while we very often discuss the overall parameters that a Davis trade will take, we don’t bother getting attached to these idiotic NBA 2Kx deals, because in the real world those deals never happen and there’s no sense in getting caught up them.
Sorry I deleted the hyperbolic 1991 thing — that was annoying.

I’m not screaming anything. You’re taking it as that because you don’t like your feathers ruffled by someone new around here

Prior to agreeing to be traded to the Cs, Garnett had one one year left on his deal before he could opt out, and then signing an extension with Boston. If by “Pending FA” you mean he was still under contract — correct, he was not a FA. Which Davis will be in 2020. Thus the difference I’m drawing between your suggestion and the reality of the Garnett trade. It’s not rocket science.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
5,059
Oh I can think of lots of reasons why Dallas would want Horford. You can’t? He’s pretty good. their frontcourt could use the help, and Rick Carlisle likes winning games. So does Mark Cuban. He likes sellouts too.
Mavs sell out every game already. And I love Al, but he's the exact opposite of the type of player you'd bring in if you're trying to sell tickets. They'd be way more likely to generate excitement by adding a big name rookie to pair up with Smith that they can sell as the core of the next competitive Mavs team. Plus that might actually work to win them enough games to matter eventually, which adding Al wouldn't.