zenter said:
I don't get if you just don't do jokes or you are playing a character that never gets jokes
Celtics trade for Thornton, Zeller and a Pick
- Thread starter bowiac
- Start date
I don't get if you just don't do jokes or you are playing a character that never gets jokes
sibpin said:
This is a great summary. That is impressive. Zeller needs to be on the received list.
And none of those mentioned required to match a percentage of an $8.7m contract. The only one close was Turner......and he fetched a guy the 76ers bought out the next day.Grin&MartyBarret said:
HomeRunBaker said:
I didn't say the return would be huge, just that it wouldn't be impossible to move him, and provided examples of players who were moved that weren't buyouts.
luckiestman said:
Yes, exactly.
I don't get the joke. What's funny about Cleveland making the playoffs AND winning the lottery? Is it funny like airplane peanuts? Because I don't get that one either.
The joke is that people surmise that the NBA fixed the lottery this year to give Cleveland the #1 pick in order to make it more enticing for LeBron to go there. And if the NBA wants Cleveland to have the #1 pick again, they will rig it so it doesn't even matter if they are in the lottery.
If you don't hold this view of the system being rigged and/or otherwise don't like when people disparage the system being rigged for whatever reason, then in this case it would not be funny to you at all.
If you don't hold this view of the system being rigged and/or otherwise don't like when people disparage the system being rigged for whatever reason, then in this case it would not be funny to you at all.
There is nothing not to like about this deal. Its all about value, and they got good-to-potentially-great value for a 2nd round pick. Yawn or howl in excitement, it doesn't really matter. This gives the Celtics more assets, more flexibility for trades, and potentially a decent backup/fringe starting C to play in Steven's system. Its all about winning trades, and its all relative value based. This is a good win anyway you slice it.
I'm trying to suss out if this is anything other than treading water from the Nets's perspective.
PRO: Jack is real backup PG, so that's a good thing for them.
CON: He's a 6.3M cap hit through 2017, which isn't the best (but not the worst either).
UNKNOWN: Karasev is young and mostly untested. Anyone have Karasev's scouting report?
Fun thing I realized: Jason Terry's (upgraded) replacement on the Nets came back in this trade, plus the Cavs 1st rounder. That's like the C's trading JET for Thornton and a 1st. That's... funny.
PRO: Jack is real backup PG, so that's a good thing for them.
CON: He's a 6.3M cap hit through 2017, which isn't the best (but not the worst either).
UNKNOWN: Karasev is young and mostly untested. Anyone have Karasev's scouting report?
Fun thing I realized: Jason Terry's (upgraded) replacement on the Nets came back in this trade, plus the Cavs 1st rounder. That's like the C's trading JET for Thornton and a 1st. That's... funny.
Wojo now reporting Cleveland dangling Wiggins to Minnesota for Love. Way to go Danny.....facilitate cap space for Cleveland to lure LeBron, which is fine on its own, that they now have motivation to steal your #1 target in Love.
If this goes down its indefensible and the Cavs have the best offer to boot.
If this goes down its indefensible and the Cavs have the best offer to boot.
If Flip takes Wiggins, Varejao and other scraps for Love (presumably that's the deal) instead of what the Celtics have to offer, he's an idiot. Wiggins is very, very far away from being a sure thing. But I'm glad he's an idiot.
Yes, because without the Celtics, the Cavs would never have been able to find another trade partner to offload Jarrett Jack, so Ainge should clearly try and anticipate 1.) where unrestricted free agents will go, 2.) future moves that other teams will make, and 3.) other teams' cap space BEFORE he ever thinks about updgrading the Celtics situation first from a talent, draft pick, and cap flexibility standpoint. That's just not how roster moves work . . . . in any sport.HomeRunBaker said:
To claim this outcome would make the Celtics trade "indefensible" has jumped your thread participation from "grumpy curmudgeon" to "purely trolling at this point".
Meh, Wiggins isn't a sure thing, but he's a much better asset than anything the Celtics could offer and its probably a better deal unless the C's were going to start loading in Brooklyn picks. That proposed Wiggins trade is better for Minnesota long-term than the Golden State trades floating about IMO.
Sullinger, Bradley, James Young and multiple unprotected first round picks. I wouldn't be surprised if Young, who can shoot lights out, turns out to be a better NBA player than Wiggins.
There was a small flurry of tweets a few days ago about Ainge getting 'creative' in a last-ditch attempt to shake Love loose. I'd think that everything Ainge had was on the table, and that evidently was not enough, since Ainge just disposed of one of his major assets in the traded player exception.bowiac said:
I'd say Wiggins is a much better asset than anything the C's could have offered. I'd rather have a dollar in Wiggins than 4 quarters in some combination of Sullinger, Young, Olynyk, picks. Sullinger's a good player, but I'd imagine every GM would take Wiggins over him in a nanosecond
I would probably take some insane package of Sully, Olynyk, Young, and three unprotected firsts or something over Wiggins, but I doubt Ainge would offer that.
IMHO folks here are seriously overrating Wiggins. Enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgF8uskgLw&feature=player_detailpage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgF8uskgLw&feature=player_detailpage
Well, it's not just here, he went #1 in a very good draft. Plus, we know, you've been banging this drum for a while now.Brickowski said:
What drum? Wiggins has upside, but that's all it is. He's no sure thing. Didn't we see reports a few weeks ago that Saunders, who would also be coaching the team, wanted established NBA players in return for Love, not young, unproven players?
The Wiggins thing is an appreciation that the guy who went #1 overall tends to be very good. My own "sense" of Wiggins in his own right is that he was like the 7th or 8th best prospect. But the fact that he was the consensus #1 guy after Embiid went down is a pretty big data point that I'm wrong.DannyDarwinism said:
I actually don't recall him ever being the #3 guy. By the time people came around on Embiid, opinions on Parker had slipped a bunch. Either way, he did actually go #1. I'm not sure what salience opinions in November have, before we'd seen these guys play conference opponents.Brickowski said:
Plenty of established players, but not very good ones.
If Flip wants established players, he should revisit the rumored deal with Golden State. Or give Presti a call. Ibaka, Reggie Jackson and some additional pieces would be a better return for Love than Cleveland could offer.
The "Wiggins is overrated" drum. Which should have been obvious from the one point, one sentence I quoted from you. Calm down, its an observation, not a criticism.Brickowski said:
I suspect when the details of this trade come out fully, it'll be an Ainge special top 55 protected second round pick going to Cleveland, which gets extinguished to nothing after a year.HomeRunBaker said:
I think it's only in there because Cleveland has to receive something in the trade.
Not that it should really matter. Zeller, who's a decent young backup center at a minimum, and a #1 for taking on one year of Marcus Thornton is a pretty strong deal.
How in the living hell can anyone think the C's could ever trump an offer of Wiggins?
Nobody is claiming he is a sure thing but he was the number one pick in the draft AND he is defensible to Minnesota fans (something some here are underestimating). As has been said multiple times, once the C's drew the sixth slot, they were effectively out of the game.
I know a lot of folks beg to differ but a Golden State offer of Lee and Thompson is likely more compelling than what the C's could offer unless Ainge sent a metric shit-ton of picks along with one of Smart/Young, Sully, Olynk (essentially what bowiac said). If Ainge did that, he'd be pilloried here and widely for putting all of his eggs in the basket of a player who, as we have seen from multiple threads here, may be vastly overrated by NBA metrics and is almost certainly the type of player who needs a certain system to succeed. That system isn't even close to existing in Boston.
Nobody is claiming he is a sure thing but he was the number one pick in the draft AND he is defensible to Minnesota fans (something some here are underestimating). As has been said multiple times, once the C's drew the sixth slot, they were effectively out of the game.
I know a lot of folks beg to differ but a Golden State offer of Lee and Thompson is likely more compelling than what the C's could offer unless Ainge sent a metric shit-ton of picks along with one of Smart/Young, Sully, Olynk (essentially what bowiac said). If Ainge did that, he'd be pilloried here and widely for putting all of his eggs in the basket of a player who, as we have seen from multiple threads here, may be vastly overrated by NBA metrics and is almost certainly the type of player who needs a certain system to succeed. That system isn't even close to existing in Boston.
Really like this. If the Cavs DON'T get Lebron the pick might actually be decent. And Zeller should be a solid backup center.
The only downside is if this helps the Nets long term. And I don't think it does help them beyond 2014/15. If I were a Nets fans I would rather keep the only decent young guy on the roster, and adding these contracts just sends the Nets further into cap hell in 2015/16.
Can you not say this about any player who has ever been drafted? That Lebron James fellow had talent coming out of high school, but he had a long way to go to become a hall of fame player.
Wiggins needs polishing, but he could be a smaller Scottie Pippen and give the Wolves one of the two superstars they need to build a championship team. (Also, he is from Toronot, so he should easier to convince to stay in Minnesota than most other players.) No combination of players the Celtics can offer can equal the shot at a legit star.
The only downside is if this helps the Nets long term. And I don't think it does help them beyond 2014/15. If I were a Nets fans I would rather keep the only decent young guy on the roster, and adding these contracts just sends the Nets further into cap hell in 2015/16.
Brickowski said:
Can you not say this about any player who has ever been drafted? That Lebron James fellow had talent coming out of high school, but he had a long way to go to become a hall of fame player.
Wiggins needs polishing, but he could be a smaller Scottie Pippen and give the Wolves one of the two superstars they need to build a championship team. (Also, he is from Toronot, so he should easier to convince to stay in Minnesota than most other players.) No combination of players the Celtics can offer can equal the shot at a legit star.
Sprowl said:
I think one aspect that's been missed in this discussion is the fact that Thornton's salary is actually a more flexible asset than the TPE, and not just because it lasts more than three more days. While player salaries can be combined in the same transaction, the TPE could not be combined in this way, or at least that's my understanding of the current CBA rules. So, for example, you couldn't use the TPE to acquire a player making more than the TPE, while you could use Thornton's salary if you combined it with Bogans' deal or similar.
I agree that if Wiggins is in play then the Celtics will have trouble beating that offer, but moving the TPE for Thornton's salary I think actually increases the Celtics' ability to make further deals, it doesn't diminish it.
I don't think the TPE was that useful for the Love deal. It was only going to let them take on Martin in a separate deal, it was too small to be used on Love himself.
I do think this is an assumption we're all making, but it's a good to highlight. The TPE was essentially useless to the Celtics, but held value to the Cavs for the LeBron chase.bryan1918 said:
Yes, for further deals, but Thornton doesn't offer much more value to a potential trade for Love (directly). Wiggins or the GSW offer are much more attractive if I'm Flip Saunders unless Ainge throws more picks than we're all comfortable with. I don't see the Cs offering a non-Rondo package that the Wolves would jump at.
But, yes, as a potential building block, I love Thornton's expiring.
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
This has been debated ad nauseam (Flip blowing it up versus going for established players) I personally like the C's offer more than the Dubs but Wiggins is a better offer than all of them.
Are we certain that the Cavs are offering Wiggins? Only tweet I have seen is Woj's and he just says Cavs are talking with the Wolves. They could be trying to sell them on a Waiters, Bennett, multiple 1st round pick offer for all we know
